Author Topic: Shop Build Progess (Changed Name from Whats a good shop size?)  (Read 7472 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 6221
  • Festool Baby.....
Hi ya'll. Well Im finally making my out of state.  Ya'll know Ive been threatening to do that for a while now.
I thought  Id be moving to Tx but we took a trip to Arizona and the wife found a home thats being built and loves it. So happy wife, happy life.

Well the new home isn a full acre of land and is a blank slate. So I have to get s shop built and electricity ran out to it. The acre has a block wall fence all around it and the house is sorta out in the sticks with state forest land on one side.

Like i said its a blank slate

We all know the larger the better. Realistically we all arent daddy war bucks rolling in doe. I was thinking about  30' X 40' tough shed with a slab foundation, extending the foundation out another 10-15 ft in length so I can add on in the future.

There is a big difference in the price for a 20 x 40 shed to.

Maybe buying a trailer setting up shop in the trailer and using a slab as a work shop as the arizona weather other than the heat in the summer really isnt bad.

I have a 3 car garage I can use until a shop is built. But we'll have a lot of junk to be piled up in it until we get the junk sorted (we got to much junk).

Suggestions please? The house isn't going to be completed until the end of Feb so Im just beating my head up over this now. Thinking what to do, my options i setting up shop....


« Last Edit: August 13, 2020, 02:19 PM by jobsworth »

Offline YOGO100

  • Posts: 22
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2020, 12:35 PM »
Mark Spagnuolo (a.k.a. the woodwhisperer online) built a shop in Arizona (Phoenix area) a couple of years ago, and documented it for his website (he has since moved to Colorado, I think). I know that this doesn't answer your question directly, but he put a lot of thought into both the size and other requirements for the shop, so it may be worthwhile for you to look it up. I only lived in Tempe for a couple of years, but I would figure that you'd have to give some thought to air conditioning :)

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1850
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2020, 01:11 PM »
Congrats. Living on an acreage was once my dream (too old to pursue it now).

Not knowing what machines you have or will have for your new shop or the size of the shop you have been using, I'd would say a shop the size of a four-car garage or so would be good for a hobby woodworker, with room for lumber racks and partitioned dust collection.

I'd take 30' x 40'; 20' x 40' is less ideal but workable. I have a shop the size of a 2-car garage...only in the day time, as at night, two cars go in there. And I've been building furniture there from dining tables to cabinets to bookcases, etc.

I'm against the tide when it comes to shop size...the larger is not necessarily the better as I don't want to spend a lot of energy on just walking across the shop to get what I need. I've got used to my compact shop and everything is within reach without taking a hike, if you know what I mean. It is efficiency I'm talking about, not to mention aging is not helping.

Big shops look great, but unless you're a production or active woodworker, depending on the local weather, you may have to spend a lot of money on cooling or heating it. I shut down my shop last whole week because of the deep freeze (highs in the -20C)... to save energy costs. Today is back to +5C high...shop is OPEN.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2020, 04:15 PM by ChuckM »

Offline vkumar

  • Posts: 515
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2020, 01:41 PM »
Wow congratulations. I can tell you that a 2 car garage size 20 x 20 is not adequate. Depends on whether you will have large stationary machines or not.  A full sized table saw,  jointer, planer, workbench assembly table , compressor can eat up a lot of room. If you are and not planning on having these then you can get by with less. Regardless of this do not skimp on electrical outlets, both 220 and 110 V and sufficient amperage sub panel (100 A). In case of large machines do plan on a ducting system for dust extraction.

Where in Arizona?  Keep us informed of your progress.

Vijay
Vijay Kumar

Offline Pompeio

  • Posts: 72
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2020, 03:44 PM »
Hi Ron:

My downstairs workshop is 13x26 and I wish it was larger.  I have an 8' Kapex bench, CT26, two tool chests (with one holding two grinders and a mini-lathe) against one long wall. The rear short wall has a CMS holding the 1400, another tool chest with a bench top bandsaw and drill press atop it.  The other long wall has a jointer, portable air compressor, entry door, utility sink and Powermatic 66 table saw.  The MFT3 table sets in the middle of the rear half of the room.   It can get crowded but it works for me. 

I think that 20 or 26 x 26 would be great.  You may want to consider a portion of the area for a spray booth (I currently use the medium and large pop-up HomeRight Spray Shelters).  This would also give you two more walls. 

Offline egmiii

  • Posts: 187
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2020, 04:47 PM »
I'm not sure what tools are in your future, but if you ever plan to buy a sliding table saw with sufficient stroke to rip/crosscut full sheets of plywood, then you would need 23' x 16' just for the saw. The price of used machines can make them relatively affordable to hobbyist woodworkers.

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 6221
  • Festool Baby.....
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2020, 05:04 PM »
After reading some of the responses first , Id like to say thanks for them.  But I also realised maybe I should describe my tools that I use in the shop.

 I have a CMS with a TS75 for a table saw in a GE stand, I have a CMS VL I use for my router table w a 2200 in it,  and other modules I made for it. I have 3 full size MFT 3 a Kapex MFT, Kapex a MFT extension. All my festools are in systainers, TS 55, Domino 500&700, 1010, LR 32, various sanders , 2 CTs 26/22, one has a boom arm, the other has the festool cyclone , Work center with Festool stool. Igot a large vsrety of rails the smallest is a home made 400mm the largest is 3000.
Im currently set up in a standard garage (1 1/2 car garage). Makita 12 planers , Jet 6" jointer, Apollo HVLP.

Its a little tight but I can get things done. I think I may have a old photo of my current shop. Lemme check,

I found one not very good but it will give ya'll a idea of what Im dealing with.

Ok I found a couple





Offline Don T

  • Posts: 1967
  • Phoenix, Az
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2020, 05:26 PM »
Welcome to Arizona Ron. I always dreamed of a 30’ X 40’ shop, in my mind that is a perfect size. Unfortunately I work out of a 2 car garage. You will need AC from May to October if plan on building during that time of year.
RO150, C12, DF 500 Q, CT33, TS75, MFT3, Kapex 120, MFT3/Kapex, MFK 700, RO 90, ETS150/3, CT22, Centrotec Installers Kit, Parallel Guides & Ext, Carvex, OF1400, LR32 Set, MFS400 w/700 rails, KA UG Set, First Aid Kit, RTS 400 EQ, Vecturo OS400 Set, CT Wings, CT Drill Guide, Pro 5, CXS, C18, HL850, Vac Sys set

Offline rvieceli

  • Posts: 1224
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2020, 05:45 PM »
Ron a 30x40 would be a good size even if you don't have a bunch of large stationary machines. Storage space is always at a premium no matter how big you go.

Make sure there are no restrictions on what you can build on your lot. HOA, zoning etc.

Ron

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 6221
  • Festool Baby.....
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2020, 06:22 PM »
@vkumar

Im moving to Surprise Az. Lots of building going on there. Fortunately the house Im buying is surrounded by homes on acreage and one side backs up to state forest.
 

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 6221
  • Festool Baby.....
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2020, 06:32 PM »

@Don T

Don Ill definately be picking your brain for info once I get out there and get going.
Only supplier I know of there is Peterman Lumber. I think thats one of the hardest things for me is finding where and who are good suppliers are there. Do you use one of those air coolers add water and they blow that cool air or do you use a regular ac unit? I might be in my garage for a while until I get everything set up my ducks all in a row and quacking. Setting up the house is the first thing.

Offline Don T

  • Posts: 1967
  • Phoenix, Az
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2020, 09:34 PM »

@Don T

Don Ill definately be picking your brain for info once I get out there and get going.
Only supplier I know of there is Peterman Lumber. I think thats one of the hardest things for me is finding where and who are good suppliers are there. Do you use one of those air coolers add water and they blow that cool air or do you use a regular ac unit? I might be in my garage for a while until I get everything set up my ducks all in a row and quacking. Setting up the house is the first thing.

You are very close to where I live. I have never been to Petermans. There are a few places to get lumber here, Woodworkers Source, Timbers, and one other that I can’t think of the name.
RO150, C12, DF 500 Q, CT33, TS75, MFT3, Kapex 120, MFT3/Kapex, MFK 700, RO 90, ETS150/3, CT22, Centrotec Installers Kit, Parallel Guides & Ext, Carvex, OF1400, LR32 Set, MFS400 w/700 rails, KA UG Set, First Aid Kit, RTS 400 EQ, Vecturo OS400 Set, CT Wings, CT Drill Guide, Pro 5, CXS, C18, HL850, Vac Sys set

Offline tallgrass

  • Posts: 929
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2020, 09:56 PM »
Lots of building going on...... Yup Californians on the run. I wish I could leave now. Enjoy !!!! As far a s perfect shop size. You will expand to fill any size you build. Deals too good to be true.. :) will eventually fill all the free space. Just accept it. Go as big as you can, reasonably. ENJOY!

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 6221
  • Festool Baby.....
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2020, 11:14 PM »
@Don T

Petermans is a big outfit they are in Fontana Calif, Las Vegas Nevada and Phoenix.  Just for curiosity I calleed their phoenix store and axed them how much they were getting for a sheet of 3/4 domestic shop birch, they said $52. I called my reg store in Calif Reel Lumber and they were $65 a sheet and Austins was $69 a sheet.

Crazy huh?

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 6221
  • Festool Baby.....
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2020, 11:16 PM »
Lots of building going on...... Yup Californians on the run. I wish I could leave now. Enjoy !!!! As far a s perfect shop size. You will expand to fill any size you build. Deals too good to be true.. :) will eventually fill all the free space. Just accept it. Go as big as you can, reasonably. ENJOY!

Im gettin while the gettins good

Offline Alanbach

  • Posts: 577
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2020, 11:49 PM »
A 40 x 30’ shop would be awesome and the freedom that you would have with a shop that large (compared to what you have now) would be fantastic. Unfortunately it does become about what you can (and are willing to) afford.

Here is what I would recommend you think about. If I understand your profile correctly you are leaving Southern California to move to Sunrise. Make sure that you have a really good understanding what that difference in climate means to your woodworking. I live in Houston and like Sunrise it is Zimbabwe hot, I mean crazy hot and not just for a month or two, maybe 6 months straight! My suggestion is to plan to build a well insulated shop with air conditioning so that you can woodwork year round comfortably. In my opinion a swamp cooler is not going to cut it. If you plan for A/C and budget for that and use those budget numbers to determine the size of your shop I think that would be prudent. Then, once you do that you can always choose to insulate but not install the A/C right away. Then if you discover I was correct and you really need it you will have room left in your budget to take care of it.

Also, when i bought this house 11 years ago I had big plans on projects I was going to both within the shop and the house. Those plans included building my own cabinets in the shop. After a month I hired someone to build my shop cabinets because everything was in boxes and I just could not get organized and set up enough to do what I wanted to do. I realize that you are much more Festooled than I was then and therefore much more mobile but the thought of having to set up shop twice might make you crazy.

Just some random thoughts! Congratulations and I can’t wait to hear and see progress reports!


Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 1697
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2020, 04:46 AM »
Include some conduits and maybe ducting under the floor to accommodate future electrical needs and maybe dust collection of possibly an air line. Nice not having to trip over hoses.

LED lighting of course and a minimum 10 foot ceiling.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline jeffinsgf

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 303
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2020, 07:58 AM »
Following on Bob D.'s comments, the more you plan and build into the space, the less overall space you'll need. Get the ducts, power and air under the floor and you'll need smaller aisles, as well as have a more pleasant work place.

Offline Wooden Skye

  • Posts: 1171
  • My little girl was called home 12-28-15
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2020, 11:55 AM »
Initially I would do a pole barn that measures 32' x40'. Multiples of 8' generally is better for building materials.  I would insulate extremely well and add plenty of power so you can future proof as much as possible.
Bryan

TS 55, (2) 1400 Guide Rails, 1900 Guide Rail, MFT/3, Domino ETS 150/3, RO 90, CT 26, OF1400, RO 150. RTS 400, LR 32 set, PS300 jigsaw, 3 abrasive systainers, (2) sys toolbox, (2) sys mini, clamps and other accesories

Offline jarbroen

  • Posts: 269
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2020, 01:00 PM »
At least as important as the size is how you'll organize it.
You could have a 32'x40' shop and waste a lot of time taking parts from one side to the other.
Conversely, you could have a 16'x20 that's well laid out and efficient to use.


If you're not eating up a bunch of space with equipment like a table saw do you really need huge?  I have a similar set of tools/work surfaces - 2 MFT/CMS, bandsaw, Kapex cart, lathe, DC, planer - and I make it work in a 13'x20 something garage bay.  That's the beauty of Festool mobility/configuration.  Yes, I sometimes have to move things around, but I make the most of the space I have.
Are you setting up a hobby shop?  Or professional?  That makes a difference as well.  If you're hobby like me, the moving around/setup isn't a big deal if I can plan ahead.  If you're doing it professionally you don't want to waste time setting up frequently.

If you're into cars/bikes/etc you could do a 32'x40' and have garage space partitioned from woodshop space.  And only AC in the woodshop. 

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 1111
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2020, 02:04 PM »
Sounds exciting Ron.
I think when planning a workshop, big is best. I would go large, then you are covered for storage, plus any new tool hankerings the future will almost certainly bring.

When we changed workshops last time, there were two on offer. They were both empty, and although one was nearly twice the size of the other, they both looked more than adequate.
I opted for the smaller, as it was in a more convenient location. Not even six months later, I realised I’d made a mistake.


Offline Mario Turcot

  • Posts: 1226
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2020, 05:19 PM »
If you have or will get a dust collector and air compressor, think of making a dedicated insulated room.
Mario

Offline neilc

  • Posts: 2836
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2020, 06:20 PM »
Lot's of discussions on shops on garagejournal.com  @AtomicRyan on the forum here runs that site. 

Suggest you check in there as there are plenty of threads on all facets of building a shop.

Good luck and look forward to following your progress.

Offline JBag09

  • Posts: 228
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2020, 07:59 PM »
I just put up at 30x40 pole building a few years ago. I have all my stationary tools on one side of the shop. A spray room and my mft benches and a 4x8 workbench on the other side. I was actually just out there earlier today working on some cabinets I have going right now and never had to walk to the other side of the shop. It just needs to be set up efficiently no matter what size you choose.
  I put 12’ ceilings in so I could run DC, airlines and electric and dropped everything to the machines and benches so nothing lays on the floor. Also I can spin my fS3000 guide rail around with no issue.
  Being in eastern Pa we get fairly hot summers (nothing like AZ or TX) and fairly cold winters (usually 20-30’s F for avg I’d say) I have two 1.5 ton mini splits that do just fine for the hot and cold. Hasn’t changed my electric bill to drastically.
  I used Grizzly’s web site and their free shop layout to get mine figured out, think it was three variations until I got what I wanted.    Good luck with whatever you decide to do and feel free to ask any questions you’d like.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 6221
  • Festool Baby.....
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2020, 10:42 AM »
Ok I checked out a shed manufacturer looked at what they call this size a garage.  There is a dramatic price difference between a 20X20 (my current shop size) and a 24X36 their largest size.

Almost $13K difference.

They do have a 24x24 which is about $4K more than the 20x20.

 The 24x24 will give me more room then I currently have and extra money to run the electrical out to the shop, Insulate and add a a/c unit.

My thoughts are, I can lay out the shop more efficiently then my current one giving me more actual working space.

Perhaps add a slab infront of the shop (in the future) , Then put a cover over the slab where I can (when its cooler out) build a cutting table for breaking down sheet goods. The cover will give me shade from the direct sunlight and protect from the occasional rain.

I can always add another shed for more storage.

 I got the go ahead from the the Boss (Mrs Jobby) to get any size I want.

 I dont forsee myself getting any major stationary tools in the future.  I can do pretty much everything I want to do with what I got.

Maybe Im just being a cheap %%^&.

What ya'll think about that decision ?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 10:48 AM by jobsworth »

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4828
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2020, 10:47 AM »
How much is the 20x20? Seems like 24x36 would be less than 50% more than 24x24 but since don’t know base price it’s hard to compare. Check another builder?

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 6221
  • Festool Baby.....
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2020, 10:54 AM »
The 20x20 is $12K Installed with a garage door and foundation. The 24X24 is $17.5, The 24X36 is $25.6. This look like really well built sheds. Lemme check out tough shed and Ill check their prices again.

Offline Mario Turcot

  • Posts: 1226
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2020, 11:00 AM »
@jobsworth honestly it all depend of what you want to craft. You said you can do all you want with what you currently have. 20x20 is what I have and it's difficult to organize a good workflow. 24x24 is a lot more footprint. Yes to me an outside slab is a must. You can use it for a multitude of things, Even have your lunch outside of the shop [wink] spray/paint booth etc..

Do you limit yourself with what you have?
Do you think you could do other interesting projects (insert a lot of if here) you had xxx tool?

If you think one day you will go on production mode, you will need a few stationary power tools.
i.e. I don't have a good thickness planer and no jointer, I am limited to buy prepared wood most of the time. In a production environment this is far from being profitable.
Mario

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 7530
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2020, 11:03 AM »
While the 24' x 24' doesn't seem like it's that much larger than what you currently have, square footage wise it's almost 50% larger. 576 sq' versus 400 sq'.

I'd consider a taller ceiling and doing some type of lumber storage in the rafters. That way you free up more floor space.

When I'm doing a project I need to access the lumber rack for only 5% of the project however I need floor space to complete the project for 95% of the project. That lumber rack on the wall just takes up space and gets in my way.  The lumber rack takes up the space that could be used for a Kapex cutting station.

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1850
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2020, 11:05 AM »
The 20x20 is $12K Installed with a garage door and foundation. The 24X24 is $17.5, The 24X36 is $25.6. This look like really well built sheds. Lemme check out tough shed and Ill check their prices again.
-
24 x 36 is 50% more than the 24x24 (864-576/576), and that's fairly reflected in the increased price ($25.6-17.5/17.5=46%). At that price, you are getting a fair deal for the bigger size (at least mathematically).

I'd definitely pay more to get the 24x36 as it is a one-time expense and construction costs will only go up in time. My basement is about 1,000, and when I pictured myself using it as my shop, I did not feel it being a huge shop at all given the machines and stuff  I now have. I would regret if I had a chance to build my shop and limit it to 24x24. But then your woodworking output and needs might be different from mine.

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 6221
  • Festool Baby.....
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2020, 11:24 AM »
You guys make very good points. The Tuff shed price was comparable to the other shed company. But didnt include the foundation.....

Ya know I think Ill got for the large 24X36. If I move when expected, end of Feb, it will give me time to get the shop up and going before the heat comes. Then if I'll have the space I need even if I decide to get some stationary tools in the future.

funny I always used the adage I rather have it and not need it then need it and not have it.

 I can set up a fridge and a lunch area w/ TV to watch you Tube videos etc. It will be a for real man cave.

Something I always wanted but never had.

 The insulation is a given, so no real decsion making there other then what type of insulation.

Now is the type of A/C unit to get. They come in a variety of styles and types. Split vs window vs portable etc.

Offline Alanbach

  • Posts: 577
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2020, 11:26 AM »
Well all three of these sizes come out to approximately $30/sq ft. Which in my book is great! In my neck of the woods you would be $60-80/sq ft for a stick built garage. My question would be what upgrades does this company offer, like an insulation package for example. Personally i think that you have to enter this thinking that you have one shot to get it right. Let’s face it how many times do we stay with what we started with because changing / adding  / upgrading, after the fact is SO much harder.

As woodworkers, as it pertains to our shops we work with what we have and that shapes everything we do. If you make the decision to go bigger I believe that you will never regret it! It will give you flexibility that you just haven’t had before. I know that you don’t think that you need a lot more space and you are happy with your equipment now but having options might change that going forward.

It sounds like this is a big move for you which in my book means that you might be there a while so I say go for it! Also I have a feeling that you will finish this into a nice space when it’s done. A nice size multi purpose craft building on the property will enhance your resale value in the future. From a real estate perspective I have a feeling that adding usable square footage for $30 ish (even $40 ish) dollars per foot will prove to be a very good investment.

Offline Mario Turcot

  • Posts: 1226
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2020, 11:37 AM »
My 20'x20'x9' shop 4 sides roof was 13k. That include walls, doors, windows and outside finish. The slab alone cost me 10k. Because of deep freeze time here, I put a 4' wall on the footing, filled it with sands and a 4" foam. That was to prevent crack, so far so good  [smile]. Then there was the other things to invest in.

Electrical panel and outlets;
LED Lightning;
Insulation;
inside walls finish;
Floor treatment
Mario

Offline Alanbach

  • Posts: 577
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2020, 12:04 PM »
@Mario Turcot - You should have listed “The most beautiful electrical panel known to man”!

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 6221
  • Festool Baby.....
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2020, 12:12 PM »
This is going to be quite a adventure. Dont know much about Az other than its desert and gets hot. So my learning curve is going to be steep. I can do most of the electrical work myself. Just need to get the panel ran out to the shed. Which in reality I can do myself, but will faster If I sub it out.

I dont want to do what I always do and thats rush through it to get it done. I want to take my time lay this shop out to where I dont have to and run other outlets etc. I want it to be a one shot deal. Set up right with the ability to adjust for any future tool buys etc

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4828
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2020, 12:14 PM »
The 20x20 is $12K Installed with a garage door and foundation. The 24X24 is $17.5, The 24X36 is $25.6. This look like really well built sheds. Lemme check out tough shed and Ill check their prices again.

24x36 seems overpriced.

Offline Mike Goetzke

  • Posts: 561
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2020, 12:18 PM »
The 20x20 is $12K Installed with a garage door and foundation. The 24X24 is $17.5, The 24X36 is $25.6. This look like really well built sheds. Lemme check out tough shed and Ill check their prices again.

24x36 seems overpriced.

They all look around $30/sq-ft.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4828
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2020, 12:20 PM »
The 20x20 is $12K Installed with a garage door and foundation. The 24X24 is $17.5, The 24X36 is $25.6. This look like really well built sheds. Lemme check out tough shed and Ill check their prices again.
-
24 x 36 is 50% more than the 24x24 (864-576/576), and that's fairly reflected in the increased price ($25.6-17.5/17.5=46%). At that price, you are getting a fair deal for the bigger size (at least mathematically).

I'd definitely pay more to get the 24x36 as it is a one-time expense and construction costs will only go up in time. My basement is about 1,000, and when I pictured myself using it as my shop, I did not feel it being a huge shop at all given the machines and stuff  I now have. I would regret if I had a chance to build my shop and limit it to 24x24. But then your woodworking output and needs might be different from mine.

Not unless they’re including another 24 foot wall across the interior. 24x24 price includes two end walls. 24x36 just adds 12 feet of roof walls and foundation. Incremental additional costs should total less than 50% more.

I’m going on about this because I too think you should go for the bigger space, just don’t think the price  fairly reflects the difference in construction costs.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 12:22 PM by Michael Kellough »

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 6221
  • Festool Baby.....
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2020, 02:57 PM »
Tuff shed was a little less but didnt include the foundation and studs looked to be 24 OC where the other one the studs are 2x4 and 16 OC and included the foundation

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 1111
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2020, 05:36 AM »
Ron, just a thought but, would a self build work out more viable financially?
Having said that, self builds often get bespoke/custom as they roll along, tugging at the purse strings.

Offline JBag09

  • Posts: 228
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #40 on: January 24, 2020, 04:10 PM »
Check our metalbarncentral.com. Looks like they are in the area your going to. I did my 30x40, with pouring the slab for just under 20k, but opposite side of the country. And I had them add some 1/2” insulation board under the metal, definitely seemed to help even before I had the inside finished. Whatever you decide will be well worth the time and effort believe me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 6221
  • Festool Baby.....
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2020, 12:22 AM »
@JBag09

Thanks for the info. I sent them a request for quote and requested the shop be insulated to with stand the Az heat. I went for a 36X36 with a lean to. So lets see what they come up with

Offline JBag09

  • Posts: 228
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2020, 06:41 AM »
@jobsworth , great interested to hear what they come back with. That’s a great size too.
  I studded out the inside of mine and then did r-19 for a total of r-22 with the insulation board and drywall. The ceiling I used a vapor barrier and 1/2” plywood (since I got it for free lol) and then I blew in insulation, ended up around r-60. I did all that myself and I’m sure it saved me ALOT in the end. I think I came in around and 10k, which included all the framing, insulation, electrical, mini splits (my son does this work so he installed them) and a new 5hp dust collector.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 6221
  • Festool Baby.....
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2020, 10:12 AM »
It will be interesting to see. I did ask them if they could insulate during installation. Just to see if they could and what the cost would be. My thing is to get the shop built and usable quickly.

There is a lot of building going on residential neighborhoods with a lot of residential housing going up. I mean a lot.

I want to set up and capitalize on that.
Building garage cabinets for the front wall of the garage high enough off the ground where they can park their vehicles comfortably. 

Im thinking there will be a need for that and may lead into to other work. Just small jobs what most contractors wont do because its to small of a job. Custom shelves, etc.

 Of course Im retired from my career job, but this will keep me busy and I can use the money to help defray the cost of the shed and for some home improvements of my own.

If i get enough people wanting them I can batch them out. Festool is awesome for that sort work.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 10:16 AM by jobsworth »

Offline Alanbach

  • Posts: 577
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2020, 06:09 PM »
That opens up an interesting two way street. You want to build a shop and you may need some trades to help you get things done quickly. You can stop by nearby home building sites in varying stages of construction and meet many different trades that might be able to do work on your workshop. In the process you will probably meet some guys that, while they are not general contractors they do consolidate a number of different trades for the builder. Those guys can give you work or even work out barter arrangements to get your shop done quickly in exchange for work they might need. Great idea!

Offline martin felder

  • Posts: 103
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #45 on: February 16, 2020, 03:47 PM »
A couple of thoughts.  Regarding insulation.  I think that is key as this better allows an AC unit to keep up with very high heat and saves utility $.  I think reading about R values is a good use of time. If the framing is 2x4s, consider adding some  strips to have a larger cavity between the studs to accommodate more insulation.  That could be R-Max rigid foam (available Home Depot with high R-value per inch) or the other less expensive easier to install options.I think split is better than window which is better than portable.  A central can be use for larger structures where the air handler is suspended and really, there does not have to be much ducting or any ducting.  That would give maximum cooling.  If you like working in the heat, not a problem.  If not, then it will be no fun when the inside temp is 80+ degrees.

Another thought is that if the structure has windows and you can remove a window and build an enclosure for the dust collector outside the opening where the opening allows the duct to exit (and air return), an advantage could be an ability to empty the bin without a dust cloud inside the shop and that space saved inside the shop can be used for other things. 

Of course all about priorities and personal preferences. 

Offline bkharman

  • Posts: 2074
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #46 on: February 16, 2020, 04:43 PM »
A couple of thoughts.  Regarding insulation.  I think that is key as this better allows an AC unit to keep up with very high heat and saves utility $.  I think reading about R values is a good use of time. If the framing is 2x4s, consider adding some  strips to have a larger cavity between the studs to accommodate more insulation.  That could be R-Max rigid foam (available Home Depot with high R-value per inch) or the other less expensive easier to install options.I think split is better than window which is better than portable.  A central can be use for larger structures where the air handler is suspended and really, there does not have to be much ducting or any ducting.  That would give maximum cooling.  If you like working in the heat, not a problem.  If not, then it will be no fun when the inside temp is 80+ degrees.

Another thought is that if the structure has windows and you can remove a window and build an enclosure for the dust collector outside the opening where the opening allows the duct to exit (and air return), an advantage could be an ability to empty the bin without a dust cloud inside the shop and that space saved inside the shop can be used for other things. 

Of course all about priorities and personal preferences.
Good ideas.

On another note, is your name truly “Martin Felder”?

Cheers. Bryan.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4828
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #47 on: February 16, 2020, 05:12 PM »
Martin fielder is obviously a pseudonym.
Check out the thread where he first used the monicker and you’ll understand.

Offline Alanbach

  • Posts: 577
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #48 on: February 16, 2020, 11:20 PM »
A central can be use for larger structures where the air handler is suspended and really, there does not have to be much ducting or any ducting.  That would give maximum cooling.

I have a ten foot ceiling in my garage and an exterior wall so I had an A/C contractor hang a central A/C (with a small electric heating strip). The evaporator coil and air handler hang from the ceiling in the space just above the garage doors. There is a small plenum with one duct. It works amazingly well and I am in Houston where it is very common to have 5 months of 90 plus degree weather with dozens of those days potentially being 100 degrees plus.

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 6221
  • Festool Baby.....
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #49 on: May 12, 2020, 06:04 PM »
Been a while since I posted a update. Today the county came out surveyed the area where the shop is going to be built took some photos for the permits. So its progressing. I got a feeling that hos will be one of those things that drag and drag and drag but once it starts going bam itsll be done fast. (fingers crossed)

Offline Mario Turcot

  • Posts: 1226
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #50 on: May 13, 2020, 10:32 PM »
Good luck and keep posting slacker  [wink]
Mario

Offline Thompmd

  • Posts: 123
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #51 on: May 13, 2020, 11:21 PM »
I have about a 30x30 for the main shop then other adjacent space for larger wood and regular tools. I didn’t build myself.

—will there be other uses(vehicles, seasonal storage, etc
—be careful what size O/H door you get as you lose a lot of space/efficiency . Also consider where your service door is in regards to moving things in/out. I would opt for a more rectangular shop as wall space vs center of the room floor space for me would be more valuable. I would also ask myself what are your biggest 3 issues in your current space as well as what you like about your current space

How exciting it must be, congratulations!!!
Sawstop Industrial Saw, TS75,2 1400 rails, CT36, Rotex RO 150 FEQ, CT-VA-20, Carvex PS 420 EBQ, Carvex acc. ZH-SYS-PS 400, Kapex KS 120, CT Cyclone Dust Collection Pre-Separator CT VA 20, DF 500 Q Set, Domino 1,060pc Tenon Assortment, UG-KA-SET Portable Imperial Stand & Extensions,OF1400 EQ-F-Plus, MFT/3, MFT-SP, FS-HZ 160

Offline CeeJay

  • Posts: 151
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #52 on: May 13, 2020, 11:58 PM »
I have a shop in Queensland Australia. Similar heat to AZ but higher humidity. It is south facing and shaded by a taller structure to the north, and fairly well insulated. It doesn’t have AC and I can comfortably work through 35degree (C) summer with door and window (both south facing) open, I do however have an 84” Big Ass ceiling fan which is fantastic.

Pretty small shop - 18’ by 14’. I’ve got a full sized table saw, jointer, thicknesser, workbench, mitre station, bandsaw, ducted DC, some storage and no room for anything else! Tall ceilings at 12’ which helps. Lots of racks etc to allow storage above machines etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 6221
  • Festool Baby.....
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #53 on: May 14, 2020, 10:43 AM »
@CeeJay

Ceiling fans are on my list to put in. Not sure how many yet. Im guessing maybe 3.

@Thompmd

This is a stand alone shop nothing else going in it. It will have a 8 x 10 storage shed built on to it. I got enough land if I need more storage I can always just build another shed. It would be out of siding and Id build that myself.

Since I have pretty much all festools the only stationary tool is my jet jointer. The rest are festool/bench top tools. I use my CMS GE with my TS 75 for a table saw and my CMS VL for a router table and made modules out of plywood for other bench top tool to mount in them.

Like my Ca shop Ill get some spur shelving to set the modules /bench top tools on. Ill definately be utilising the walls. As far as additional storage lumber etc, Im thinking of building a leanto on one of the exterior walls a place to store my landscaping tools .

Its all in my mind at this time. Wont know until its actually built and Im setting it up and resetting up and and until Im happy with the lay out for work flow.

Im thinking work flow will determine shop lay out. a Guido type  wall along the back should do me about right for Systainers small parts storing finish etc.

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 6221
  • Festool Baby.....
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #54 on: June 16, 2020, 12:22 AM »
Signed the contract today, they should be digging for the slab by the end of the week.

Offline CeeJay

  • Posts: 151
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #55 on: June 16, 2020, 12:48 AM »
Signed the contract today, they should be digging for the slab by the end of the week.
That’s pretty exciting! We did this 4 years ago. Took 12 months from signing contract to moving in. But that was for whole block and house inc workshop.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline Don T

  • Posts: 1967
  • Phoenix, Az
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #56 on: June 16, 2020, 01:17 AM »
@CeeJay

Ceiling fans are on my list to put in. Not sure how many yet. Im guessing maybe 3.

@Thompmd

This is a stand alone shop nothing else going in it. It will have a 8 x 10 storage shed built on to it. I got enough land if I need more storage I can always just build another shed. It would be out of siding and Id build that myself.

Since I have pretty much all festools the only stationary tool is my jet jointer. The rest are festool/bench top tools. I use my CMS GE with my TS 75 for a table saw and my CMS VL for a router table and made modules out of plywood for other bench top tool to mount in them.

Like my Ca shop Ill get some spur shelving to set the modules /bench top tools on. Ill definately be utilising the walls. As far as additional storage lumber etc, Im thinking of building a leanto on one of the exterior walls a place to store my landscaping tools .

Its all in my mind at this time. Wont know until its actually built and Im setting it up and resetting up and and until Im happy with the lay out for work flow.

Im thinking work flow will determine shop lay out. a Guido type  wall along the back should do me about right for Systainers small parts storing finish etc.
You should get a Bigass Fan
RO150, C12, DF 500 Q, CT33, TS75, MFT3, Kapex 120, MFT3/Kapex, MFK 700, RO 90, ETS150/3, CT22, Centrotec Installers Kit, Parallel Guides & Ext, Carvex, OF1400, LR32 Set, MFS400 w/700 rails, KA UG Set, First Aid Kit, RTS 400 EQ, Vecturo OS400 Set, CT Wings, CT Drill Guide, Pro 5, CXS, C18, HL850, Vac Sys set

Offline RJNeal

  • Posts: 533
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #57 on: June 16, 2020, 08:12 AM »
Congratulations, enjoy.
Have you walked your saw today?

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 6221
  • Festool Baby.....
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #58 on: June 22, 2020, 06:25 PM »
Rather than start a new thread, Ill just keep this one going. So today it begins.
they came out and dug the trenches for the footings.



Offline Thompmd

  • Posts: 123
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #59 on: June 22, 2020, 06:35 PM »
How cool! I look forward to following the build, there can’t be sawdust soon enough and with a good dust extractor there won’t be any lol
Sawstop Industrial Saw, TS75,2 1400 rails, CT36, Rotex RO 150 FEQ, CT-VA-20, Carvex PS 420 EBQ, Carvex acc. ZH-SYS-PS 400, Kapex KS 120, CT Cyclone Dust Collection Pre-Separator CT VA 20, DF 500 Q Set, Domino 1,060pc Tenon Assortment, UG-KA-SET Portable Imperial Stand & Extensions,OF1400 EQ-F-Plus, MFT/3, MFT-SP, FS-HZ 160

Offline Rob Z

  • Posts: 1007
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #60 on: June 22, 2020, 07:15 PM »
Hey Jobby

I had forgotten about your shop build thread. Very exciting for you.  To save having to re-read everything, what are the dimensions you decided on?


Offline Rob Z

  • Posts: 1007
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #61 on: June 22, 2020, 11:01 PM »
Hello again Jobby

Earlier I was going to joke and ask how deep do those footings need to be, about 1/2" ?   [big grin]  So, then I decided to look it up and found this reference. This says 0 to 2" , seems funny to read that!

https://efotg.sc.egov.usda.gov/references/public/AZ/Frost_depth.pdf

And what did you decide about cooling the shop? 

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 6221
  • Festool Baby.....
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #62 on: June 23, 2020, 12:46 AM »
@RobZ

cooling the shop......

 Im adding some ceiling fans, I havent really put a lot of thought into cooling it yet. I haven't rulled out a swamp cool or split unit.
Ive been thinking more about setting it up  but cooling not really as it should be completed the mid-end of August then we should be cooling down a few weeks after its completed.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2020, 10:03 PM by jobsworth »

Offline Vondawg

  • Posts: 357
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #63 on: June 23, 2020, 07:18 AM »
Now that’s a fence...I assume the blocks left out on the bottom are incase of flash flooding ??
There are no mistakes....just new designs.

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 6221
  • Festool Baby.....
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #64 on: June 23, 2020, 09:59 PM »
@Vondawg

 yeah the fence is designed for drainage when it rains here.

 That fence completely surrounds the back and its 6ft high, I have a full acre and the fence surrounds most of it;

@Thompmd

I cant wait to get it built and start setting the shop up. Been waiting a long time to have a dedicated shop.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2020, 10:04 PM by jobsworth »

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 6221
  • Festool Baby.....
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #65 on: August 04, 2020, 12:02 PM »
Well Guys footings passed inspection today will pour concrete Tomorrow or Thurs, Trusses and framing lumber ordered, so things are going to start moving finally......about time.

Offline demographic

  • Posts: 603
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #66 on: August 04, 2020, 02:37 PM »
Have you considered building it out of SIPS panels which are strong and easy to seal up for airtightness.

Very well insulated and consequently you can condition the internal air far cheaper and more effectively.

Offline Roseland

  • Posts: 665
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #67 on: August 04, 2020, 02:54 PM »
It's amazing what you can do in a small space:



Andrew
TS55, MFT/3, OF1400, OF1010, CT26, RS100, ETS125, CXS, MFS400, DF-500, Zobos.

Online rst

  • Posts: 2426
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #68 on: August 04, 2020, 03:31 PM »
Just had a 30 x 36 polebarn built by an Amish contractor.  One 12 x 30 room for garage, the rest is my shop, no windows and I'm having the interior including roof spray foamed 2".

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 6221
  • Festool Baby.....
Re: Whats a good shop size?
« Reply #69 on: August 04, 2020, 09:48 PM »
@rst

thats awesome , bet yer as excited as I am about getting a shop. Yup cement being pour tomorrow  [big grin]

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 6221
  • Festool Baby.....
Re: Shop Build Progess(Changed Name from what size shop)
« Reply #70 on: August 13, 2020, 02:17 PM »
Up date, got the footings inspected and poured, pad leveled waiting for pre pour insspection for the slab

all ready to go. it should be progressing pretty fast framing and trusses next week


Oh the little sweety in the photo is our new girl Cassie.

 We got her at 5 weeks and now she's a few days short of being 2 months. I suspect she'll be spending a lot of time with me in the shop








« Last Edit: August 13, 2020, 02:22 PM by jobsworth »

Online rst

  • Posts: 2426
Re: Shop Build Progess (Changed Name from Whats a good shop size?)
« Reply #71 on: August 13, 2020, 04:04 PM »
New shop, new dog...life is good

Offline ScotF

  • Posts: 2800
Re: Shop Build Progess (Changed Name from Whats a good shop size?)
« Reply #72 on: August 13, 2020, 08:09 PM »
AWESOME! Cannot wait to see the progress pics. Love your dog, too!

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 6221
  • Festool Baby.....
Re: Shop Build Progess (Changed Name from Whats a good shop size?)
« Reply #73 on: August 13, 2020, 10:36 PM »
@ScotF

She keeps me busy. [big grin]

Offline RustE

  • Posts: 446
Re: Shop Build Progess (Changed Name from Whats a good shop size?)
« Reply #74 on: Yesterday at 11:11 AM »
...
it should be progressing pretty fast framing and trusses next week
...

Are the straps required by code? Figured bolts would be sufficient in Arizona.

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 6221
  • Festool Baby.....
Re: Shop Build Progess (Changed Name from Whats a good shop size?)
« Reply #75 on: Yesterday at 04:56 PM »
straps were decided by the engineer, there are bolts also.

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 6221
  • Festool Baby.....
Re: Shop Build Progess (Changed Name from Whats a good shop size?)
« Reply #76 on: Yesterday at 05:00 PM »
they finished pouring the slab this morning started at about 0430, also had the framing lumber delivered.

Trusses should be here by mid week




Offline Alanbach

  • Posts: 577
Re: Shop Build Progess (Changed Name from Whats a good shop size?)
« Reply #77 on: Yesterday at 09:08 PM »
Looks great! What size did you end up going with?

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 6221
  • Festool Baby.....
Re: Shop Build Progess (Changed Name from Whats a good shop size?)
« Reply #78 on: Yesterday at 11:53 PM »
25 x 30 with a 8 x 12 shed/ bump out. didnt think it would do me I thought I needed a larger shop but after the slab was poured it looks just about the right size for what i need