Author Topic: Shop tips, suggestions, experience for new build  (Read 3538 times)

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Offline Sayn3ver

  • Posts: 8
Shop tips, suggestions, experience for new build
« on: November 09, 2021, 08:43 AM »
My wife and I are in the beginning  process of planning a garage shop rebuild. It's a 20x25' detached garage that's currently structurally failing so we will be rebuilding from the foundation up.

The new footprint will roughly be 24x40' and 1.5 story.


Things I've been debating

1) ceiling height of main shop space
2) hydronic radiant floor heating of main shop space
3) gambrel vs Gable roof. Will be installing solar so a 12 in 12 Gable seems like a better option but limits room functionality up stairs. A gambrel offers two different roof angles allowing some panels to maximize light in winter and some in summer.

4)cmu vs poured concrete vs stick framing off a traditional stem wall foundation. Plan was to utilize an exterior insulation system with roxul comfort board. We are in a subterranean termite area.


5) overhead garage doors vs some form of carriage door. Looking for maximum air sealing and insulation. I've seen some products designed to make overhead doors seal better such as custom tracks that press the door in firm contact with the sealing strips while in the closed position and obviously thicker insulated panel doors.

I won't be using these doors often, mostly for loading large material, projects, etc. I've seen those plywood skinned sip style door panels to make carriage doors out of but not sure of the specific details for weather stripping the threshold and door openings.

The upstairs will be utilized as a home office and workout space and will be conditioned separately via a ductless system with the stairs/upstairs isolated from the shop space below.


I'm looking for any tips and suggestions to consider while playing around with the design.

I'm a commercial electrician and hobbyist woodworker and am into spraying/finishing.

The shop space will need to be somewhat movable, flexible to allow for possible occasional vehicle maintenance but that is a low priority.

Again, any suggestions or things you'd change on your own shop I'd love to hear. I'm located in southern NJ for location reference zone 6/7.
"A race is not won on race day, instead a race is to show what you have accomplished in practice."

Offline Peter_C

  • Posts: 1339
Re: Shop tips, suggestions, experience for new build
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2021, 02:08 PM »
The new footprint will roughly be 24x40' and 1.5 story.
Nice size! I would wall off part of it for a clean room like for your spray booth.

1) ceiling height of main shop space
Do you want a vehicle lift? Lower is better for heating and cooling, but more air space is nice too. Tall ceilings are also better for flipping long things about. 8ft is too low in reality.

2) hydronic radiant floor heating of main shop space
Your feet will love you :) Do you need to cool the space too? Hydronic can cool also.

3) gambrel vs Gable roof. Will be installing solar so a 12 in 12 Gable seems like a better option but limits room functionality up stairs. A gambrel offers two different roof angles allowing some panels to maximize light in winter and some in summer.
Solar good, can't help on design as that is a personal decision.

4)cmu vs poured concrete vs stick framing off a traditional stem wall foundation. Plan was to utilize an exterior insulation system with roxul comfort board. We are in a subterranean termite area.
ICF would be the best for insulation, noise abatement, and zero termite issues. With wood costs up, it may well be very comparable.

The upstairs will be utilized as a home office and workout space and will be conditioned separately via a ductless system with the stairs/upstairs isolated from the shop space below.
Radiant continued upstairs too. Why use two heating systems? Just dual zone it. Also for radiant I would be looking at geothermal, especially if you have a pond onsite.

I keep dreaming about a vehicle lift and for a small garage/shop an in floor unit would work great and could also be utilized as an adjustable height assembly table.

Offline Sayn3ver

  • Posts: 8
Re: Shop tips, suggestions, experience for new build
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2021, 02:58 PM »
No vehicle lift. Any one tall enough worth using is going to require an 11 or 12 foot ceiling leaving me with a structure obnoxiously tall and out of place. It's also permanent in the center of the space really limiting functionality.

Cars really aren't a hobby of mine. I'm more interested in trying out some plywood epoxy boat kits.


I feel like 8,9,10ft are my realistic height options. I feel like 9ft is a waste of lumber is stick framing unless I opt for the stem wall to come up a foot or two above grade.


I figured hydronic heat in the shop space for dust  reasons.

I'm not sure how cooling hydronic works for dehumidification. We wire minis on jobs alot and ive replaced a personal one after I paid a company to install one and they screwed it up. They also are relatively low cost and I'm familiar with their installation and functionality and I own all the tools now to install them soup to nuts.

My reservation for hydronic would be the lack of ability or chance of damage if floor anchors are needed for shelving, fastening equipment, etc in the future.

I'm not a huge icf fan as the eps foam tend to attract ants in my area. It also to me has a disadvantage of loosing the thermal mass of the concrete inside the thermal envelope but I'm always open to a persuasive argument.


"A race is not won on race day, instead a race is to show what you have accomplished in practice."

Offline rvieceli

  • Posts: 1677
Re: Shop tips, suggestions, experience for new build
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2021, 03:03 PM »
@Sayn3ver

At least 10 foot ceiling more if you want a vehicle lift.

Add enough space for a real spray booth.

I’d also suggest you head over to the garage journal forums. There are a lot a well documented shop builds. Go ahead and join and ask your questions there as well.

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/

At first glance it may seem too vehicle centered but there are several fab shops and wood shops as well. After all a building is a building.  [big grin]

Ron


Offline Peter_C

  • Posts: 1339
Re: Shop tips, suggestions, experience for new build
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2021, 05:13 PM »
No vehicle lift. Any one tall enough worth using is going to require an 11 or 12 foot ceiling leaving me with a structure obnoxiously tall and out of place. It's also permanent in the center of the space really limiting functionality.
Todays scissors lifts set dead flat on the ground. Height only matters if working on tall trucks. Even then getting them up a few feet is always good.


Cars really aren't a hobby of mine. I'm more interested in trying out some plywood epoxy boat kits.
No lift for you! Now the boat kits have me intrigued??

I figured hydronic heat in the shop space for dust  reasons.
There are two sides to everything. A heating air conditioning system running with a top quality filter can help reduce dust. It is the fine dust you need to worry about. I have a Powermatic PM1250 air filter that is reasonably quiet, and my dust collector just got a HEPA filter.


I'm not sure how cooling hydronic works for dehumidification. We wire minis on jobs alot and ive replaced a personal one after I paid a company to install one and they screwed it up. They also are relatively low cost and I'm familiar with their installation and functionality and I own all the tools now to install them soup to nuts.
I have a mini split so I am familiar with them. With solar offsetting it, I might be inclined to just heat and cool with a large mini split system. Probably going to have to leave it on 24/7 for efficiency.

My reservation for hydronic would be the lack of ability or chance of damage if floor anchors are needed for shelving, fastening equipment, etc in the future.
Depends on depth of pipes. Usually you can sink a 1/4" redhead with no issues. Closer to the surface means quicker heating.

I'm not a huge icf fan as the eps foam tend to attract ants in my area. It also to me has a disadvantage of loosing the thermal mass of the concrete inside the thermal envelope but I'm always open to a persuasive argument.
Well nothing is impervious, but mortar with stone siding is pretty darn hard to penetrate, and fire proof. As to R value ICF is one of the highest in the industry, going from R22-R30.

Offline afish

  • Posts: 1249
Re: Shop tips, suggestions, experience for new build
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2021, 05:50 PM »
Best advise I can give is build it twice as big as you think you need  ;D.  Im also huge fan of ICF. Not sure what kind of ants you have that like EPS thats a new one for me.  I never had any ant issues with ICF but NJ is a strange place so who knows.  I would also lean towards gambrel roof for the extra space.  As I said no matter how big you make it 4-5 years you will be wishing it was bigger.  Some ICFS do offer thicker foam on one side or extra foam that will slip into the block to maximize the thermal mass effect.  For a home the air tightness is huge factor but a shop with bay doors its going to be leaky no matter what. 

Offline acer66

  • Posts: 98
Re: Shop tips, suggestions, experience for new build
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2021, 06:39 AM »
I would go with 10’ height if I could reason being is moving 8’ stock around.
Mine is about 9’ tall but I also have surfaces mounted lights and rails from the garage doors which get in the way.

To combat hvac costs go with thicker walls etc. and airtight envelope.

I have only insulation in the ceiling, walls are cinder blocks, and at least here it not to bad temperature wise.

Good luck and keep us posted please.


Offline scb_yyz

  • Posts: 20
  • Grudge No Toil.
Re: Shop tips, suggestions, experience for new build
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2021, 07:27 AM »
Perhaps think of:
-  pre-wire for solar+battery backup+automotive charging.  In our area we have time of day hydroelectric billing so battery could offset those costs.  If you're also thinking of any other electrical expansion in the future, say landscape or additional buildings, now's the time to run those conduits through to outside from your new panel.  Especially if you're pouring walkways outside.
- security, ensure your entryways are structurally reinforced for heavy duty locks and such. pre-wire for alarms
- run some ethernet cables for computers or routers, but also for PoE security cameras for the future.
- intercom to the house
- design for diving rain, I wish I had more front overhang so I could leave my doors open in the rain
- and a bugbear for me, my shop/garage opens to the prevailing wind, so every darn leaf, blade of grass, or driveway dust blows into it when I have the doors open. I'm constantly sweeping It out.

just some thoughts.  I'm prepping my build for next year, so thanks for starting this topic.
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Offline Packard

  • Posts: 1330
Re: Shop tips, suggestions, experience for new build
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2021, 09:53 AM »
A neighbor put in a two-car garage with an apartment overhead.  It dwarfs the house, so aesthetically I don't approve, but I do applaud the extra space it provides.

I don't think the extra floor added much cost.  It could be an apartment, or added workshop space or storage. 


Offline squall_line

  • Posts: 1385
Re: Shop tips, suggestions, experience for new build
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2021, 10:13 AM »
It's not necessarily the extra floor that raises the cost when you put an apartment above a garage, it's all of the ancillary work with utilities and such that goes into making it a livable space.  Plumbing especially, if you have to tie back to a sewer line instead of running to a septic field.

Offline Packard

  • Posts: 1330
Re: Shop tips, suggestions, experience for new build
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2021, 11:08 AM »
I understand that and if an apartment is not needed at this time then no need to add the plumbing or electric.  But having the space available if needed in the future might be nice. 

If the building were made a few feet taller, the apartment (or office) option would be a go in the future.  In the present it becomes useful storage. 

I don't think the added height will add a lot of cost and may add value in the future. 

Of course, if it looks like my neighbor's house, don't do it.  That house looks like a "garage with a nearby house" and not a "house and a detached garage."  The scale of the building, which sits closer to the road than the house, is all wrong. And board and batten siding on the garage does not work well with the white clabbord siding on the house.

Offline CeeJay

  • Posts: 440
Re: Shop tips, suggestions, experience for new build
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2021, 01:14 PM »
I went with 10 feet high for my shop which allowed large ceiling fans, with ducted dust extraction, and overhead air cleaner, and can still stand 8 foot boards up below both.


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Offline acer66

  • Posts: 98
Re: Shop tips, suggestions, experience for new build
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2021, 05:30 PM »
I second building a second level while you at it designed in a way that makes adding plumbing etc. down the road easy if not done right away.

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 6880
  • Festool Baby.....
Re: Shop tips, suggestions, experience for new build
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2021, 05:40 PM »
@Sayn3ver
I just went through the process of a new build shop covered it from womb to tomb, lots of info you may find helpful it’s a very long thread but I think worth your time to peek at start from the very beginning getting a Archetect and ends with me setting the shop up

https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/workshops-and-mobile-vehicle-based-shops/whats-a-good-shop-size/
« Last Edit: November 11, 2021, 05:43 PM by jobsworth »

Offline Muttley000

  • Posts: 24
Re: Shop tips, suggestions, experience for new build
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2021, 09:54 PM »
I would go with 10’ height if I could reason being is moving 8’ stock around.
Mine is about 9’ tall but I also have surfaces mounted lights and rails from the garage doors which get in the way.

To combat hvac costs go with thicker walls etc. and airtight envelope.

I have only insulation in the ceiling, walls are cinder blocks, and at least here it not to bad temperature wise.

Good luck and keep us posted please.

I can second the 9’ ceiling feeling like enough until light fixtures got in the way.  I wish I had gone 10.  On top of that the cyclone DC I want is 2” higher than my finished ceiling ended up
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Offline Sayn3ver

  • Posts: 8
Re: Shop tips, suggestions, experience for new build
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2022, 02:02 PM »
My town will never approve a full second floor nor do I like the aesthetics, as most of the neighborhood are small post wwII ranchers and 1.5story cape cods and bungalows.

They do not want illegal apartments in people's garages.

Best I can do is a 1.5 story for an office/home gym above.

I am still debating between gable and gambrel attic trusses. I am trying to get rough quotes from local suppliers. I need rough costs before I waste my architect's time and my money drawing up multiple versions of the project.

I'm not even sure if I can get an attic truss made locally that's rated for garage floor load and deflection criteria (L/480 50 psf, 3000lb load in 4.5"x4.5" per IBC). I want to place a saltwater aquarium (~2200lbs) up in the office in addition to workout equipment for the workout space in the other half of the upstairs area)

I may have to use deep open web floor trusses and parallel chord scissor roof trusses unless I have them design a structural ridge for the roof and use conventional 2x12's for rafters landed atop the floor trusses. I'd like to avoid the structural ridge to avoid having the gable ends be load bearing to give me more flexibility for a large door or garage door on the street facing gable end. Plus I'm unsure of the size beam needed to span 40ft.

The desire to clear span both length and width interior spaces drives up costs and limits options.

As much as I like the durability and fire resistance of solid beams and dimensional lumber, the speed, spans and flattness of floor and roof trusses is hard to argue with.

I appreciate the feedback so far and after doing a ton of online reading I think a 10ft ceiling height is a good compromise on workability (during construction and shop use), price, conditioning costs and lighting equipment costs.

"A race is not won on race day, instead a race is to show what you have accomplished in practice."

Offline Mini Me

  • Posts: 204
Re: Shop tips, suggestions, experience for new build
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2022, 04:18 PM »
Allow for dust extraction in your plans as a ducted system removes head room. 6" is the minimum diameter for effective fine dust control and a 15" impeller is the minimum size for good air flow, ignore HP and quoted flow numbers it is the impeller size that is important. A 3 phase unit controlled via a variable frequency drive will give you the maximum flexibility and control for speed and low start current, it can be run slower when needed and at a greater speeds over 60hz if required. Getting the dust extraction right is a big step for a clean environment where the DE is recirculated.

Offline dwillis

  • Posts: 110
Re: Shop tips, suggestions, experience for new build
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2022, 06:49 PM »
I've recently built a new shop and house and have a number of the features you discussed and two years of experience living and working in the space. My workshop (and attached house and garage) are on one level, slab on grade with a hydronic heating system. There's a simple shed roof with ceiling heights of 10 feet on the low side and 16 feet at the peak (building is 24 feet wide). By building a box with a shed roof construction costs were kept down, for example the roof is framed with 2x14 LVL's at 24 inches on center, spaning the entire 24 foot width. By using a 2 foot module material waste was kept to a minimum. Wall framing are 2x6's on the low wall and 4x6 on the high wall for structural reasons.

In the workshop lighting is from high bay LED pendant lights (bottom of lights are 10 feet above the floor) which give more than enough light, and is supplemented where needed with task lighting. One feature I really appreciate is the hydronic system, it's silent and the space has a nice, even heat. There is a small wood burning stove to supplement the heat, and dispose of scrap wood and sawdust, plus a ceiling fan to circulate the warm air. South facing windows are designed to let sun in during the winter months and shades the sun during summer months. On the north side there are floor to ceiling windows that let in even north light, and the view of Mt. St. Helens (I'm in SW Washington). Garage doors are 9 feet tall, aluminum with frosted glass that lets in light, but conceals what's inside the garage. There are seals all around the garage doors that keeps cold, wind, rain, and snow out. In addition the garage door tracks are parallel to the sloping ceiling, thus increasing headroom. Instead of a traditional chain driven garage door opener there is a direct drive wall mounted motor, much quieter, takes up less space, and has a battery backup in case the power goes out.

One feature I strongly suggest are having floor outlets with cover plates. They supply power to most of my tools that are located in the center of the shop. My advice is to take the time to think about what you want to achieve with the space and design the space to realize those goals. Plus consider longer term uses and how the space may accommodate those uses. In my case I'm retired and aging, so there are no floor level changes, adding to my long term safety and comfort.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2022, 08:31 PM by dwillis »
Remember that the only scientist to walk on the moon was a geologist.  Dr. Harrison Schmitt - Apollo 17 - Valley of Taurus-Littrow - 11 to 17 December 1972.