Author Topic: Shop Heating  (Read 18255 times)

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Shop Heating
« on: September 16, 2009, 09:25 AM »
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« Last Edit: March 10, 2013, 11:36 AM by sawdustinmyshoes »

Offline ForumMFG

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Re: Shop Heating
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2009, 11:02 AM »
High impact drywall works well but is pricey. OSB or plywood painted with a semi-gloss or enamel are about the best from the standpoint of attaching/hanging things and being durable. I covered the drywall will all kinds of partial sheets of formica in an old shop. Made wiping down and cleaning easy but boy does that sawdust love to cling to formica.
Dave I would reconsider taking down the drywall in the garage or do research first. You may run into fire separation issues under the Code. OSB is not considered a proper fire separation. If the garage is attached there will most definitely be issues under the IRC or any local Code you have there. If the garage is detached, fire separation generally only comes into play if the garage is less than 10' from the house or 3'-5' from a lot line (close to neighbor). Measurements vary a bit depending on which Code. You may want to consider just putting the OSB on top of the drywall.
Removing the drywall could become an issue at resale time, if you get inspected by your municipality or with your Ins. provider after a fire. (i.e. there is more damage than could have been because you removed the drywall, we aren't paying)

Thanks for the heads up, I really never considered that.  Why is it such a issue?  All the studs are wood.

I am going to put a gas heater in my garage when I move in and I know it's going to get inspected so thanks again for the heads up.

There are numerous issues but to simplify it ... the fire resistance of drywall (assuming 5/8") gives you time to get out, helps keep the fire from spreading too rapidly, protects the framing and helps delay/avoid structural collapse before you get out and hopefully while the firemen are in there.
As far as the gas heater in the garage, there are very specific Codes regarding such an installation. Height requirements and unit protection to start. Are you looking at a space heater or hanging unit heater? Conventional or 90+? Haven't checked Code on this in a while but from what I remember standing pilots may no longer be allowed in a garage.
Are you going to have an exhaust fan for when you are working? If so then you may need to provide make-up air or a dedicated combustion air pipe for the unit.
If you let me know some details and what Code you are under I may be able to send Code sections so you have them. I have various Code books but not all.
If this is a detached garage with sufficient clearance to lot lines, house and other structures you can probably do whatever you want. If attached, you should adhere to the Code at least for your own safety.
As I tell clients, "The Code is not a ceiling to reach but a floor to work up from". It is the minimum crappiest construction allowed.



I am actually buying this heater from Wayne (hopefully).  He was at the training class and he goes under wangle on the FOG.  Maybe he can chime in and give some more information.  It's going to be a wall hung heater and I figured I would put a vent on the heater and vent it into the attic.  I know very little about this heater but this is my plan as of now.  I don't know anything about codes.

Offline Rey Johnson

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Re: Shop Heating
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2009, 11:18 AM »
I went through the heating exercise last year in my shop....and am SO happy with it. I weighed several options and ended up with electric heating.

My shop is in a decent sized one car garage...and the heater that I have never really needs to go above the second setting of the heater. I believe that the heater has 10 settings.

You can get a glimpse of the heater here

16358-0     16360-1

I had electricians do the wiring....it took all of 30 minutes to achor to the ceiling, wire and test.

Last year, I had about a $25 - $30 jump in the monthly electric bill.


I got the heater from Nortern Tool
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_595_595


...and am now very happy in the Pittsburgh winters here!!!

Rey
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Offline Rey Johnson

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Re: Shop Heating
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2009, 11:32 AM »
Joe,

The btu rating is 17,000 and the fan is not loud at all. Just a little louder than a window fan. The casing can be known to rattle a little. But I put a small magnet on top and no more rattle. I'd buy again.

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Offline ForumMFG

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Re: Shop Heating
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2009, 11:50 AM »
Rey,

I the winter, do you leaving it running 24/7?  What temp?

I figured I would run mine at a temperate that won't effect the wood and then I would turn it up for glue ups..  I thought of this to keep the monthly bill down.

Offline Rey Johnson

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Re: Shop Heating
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2009, 12:55 PM »
Rey,

I the winter, do you leaving it running 24/7?  What temp?

I kept it running for a part of the winter. The heater has a built in thermostat, which is nice. However, the settings are marked 1 - 10, not temperature ranges.

When not in the shop, I would set it to 1. When in the shop, I'd set it to 2, or between 2 and 3. When set to between 2 and 3, the garage temp would stay around 65 degrees. When set to 1, the temp would be around 60. When set to between 0 and 1, the unit comes on and off a bit too much for my liking
with the temperature changes.


The overall garage temp drops by about 3 degrees whenever I have the Jet air filtration running.


During the later part of last winter, I started to turn the unit completely off between workshop sessions since I was't in there that much. It takes about 10 minutes for the shop to go from unbearably cold to workable in a 'cold-start' situation. The floor is another story though. My floor is concrete and it take a while longer for the floor to get warmed up. But, I can deal with that...and just use mats.
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Offline jzawacki

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Re: Shop Heating
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2009, 07:09 PM »
I had an electric heater installed in my shop (see attached picture). The brand is a Dayton and it works great!!! It uses a standard furnace thermostat but rarely do I need to set it above 60 degrees here in the cold Michigan winters.

Regards,

John

Offline woodshopdemos

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Re: Shop Heating
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2009, 08:42 PM »
I had a BullDog gas heater installed 6 years ago. In the winter, I lower the thermostat when I am not there and it maintains 55 degrees (lowest on the  themostat. Raise it to 70 when Elena is due once or twice a week. Otherwise I can work at 55 degrees quite well.
   It has taken me about 5 years to really seal the shop totally. Even with all that, the heat costs about $74 a month...too much in my estimation.
In memory of John Lucas (1937 - 2010)

Offline Tom Bellemare

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Re: Shop Heating
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2009, 10:33 PM »
Where are those that talk about A/C?

I normally get enough heat in the winter from a contentious conversation...


Tom
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 10:34 PM by Tom Bellemare »

Offline Dave Ronyak

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Re: Shop Heating
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2009, 01:13 AM »
I live in NE Ohio and heat my ~16ft x 25ft x 8ft (with cathedral kick-up section in center of length) garage shop with a suspended gas-fired heater which takes combustion make-up air from outside exhausts to outside through the ceiling.  I don't recall the brand name, but its rated about 40,000 BTU.  I modified the thermostat so I can turn it down to about 45 degrees F when I am not working, and set it about 62 - 65 when working.  If I had higher ceilings, I would have opted for gas-fired ceiling mounted radiant tube heaters.  I have no issues with gluing or finishing at these relatively low working temperatures.  If operating expenses are a significant issue, you might also consider ceiling mounted electric radiant heating which would primarily warm you when working and not so much the air and room itself, or a combination so you could use the radiant system while constructing a project and full ambient heat system when you need to raise the temperature for finishing operations.

Dave R.
Friends, family and Festools make for a good retirement.  PCs...I'm not so sure.

Offline woodshopdemos

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Re: Shop Heating
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2009, 01:27 AM »
I had a BullDog gas heater installed 6 years ago. In the winter, I lower the thermostat when I am not there and it maintains 55 degrees (lowest on the  themostat. Raise it to 70 when Elena is due once or twice a week. Otherwise I can work at 55 degrees quite well.
   It has taken me about 5 years to really seal the shop totally. Even with all that, the heat costs about $74 a month...too much in my estimation.

John,
Thanks for the feedback.  $75 does sound a bit high.  As I recall your space is a two car garage.  Is the BullDog electric or gas? When you say sealed shop, does that include insulation in the walls and ceiling?  How do the puppies like 55 degrees, or do they only come to the shop when Elena is there.

Joe

2 car exactly - new constreuction. insulated all around. Sealed shop means foam in all cracks and around the heavy doors - they are sealed shut for winter. Puppies stay inside. BullDog is propane and 45,000btu unit
In memory of John Lucas (1937 - 2010)

Offline ForumMFG

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Re: Shop Heating
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2009, 07:10 AM »
For those of you who have a 2 car garage, is your garage door insulated or not?  I have a door thats not and I was thinking in the winter I would put up temporary installation some how on the doors and put weather stripping all the way around it.  I've been also thinking about putting some type of carpet on the floor because I know you can lose a lot of heat that way.  What do you guys think?

Offline woodshopdemos

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Re: Shop Heating
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2009, 07:33 AM »
Yes to the doors. Do anything and every thing you can on them. Mine have 3" of expandabe foam and then I hand caulk around them. Use a cigarette to detect wind drafts throughout the shop. As to the rug, I dont know about thermal advantage but it might make you feel beter and collect all the sawdust.
In memory of John Lucas (1937 - 2010)

Offline ForumMFG

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Re: Shop Heating
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2009, 08:00 AM »
John,

I know a rug wood collect a lot of saw dust but I'm thinking something like a rug is better than nothing and it would prevent some of the cold from coming into the shop. 

Offline Rey Johnson

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Re: Shop Heating
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2009, 09:11 AM »
ForumMFG,

I don't have a two-car garage, but I can tell you, I noticed a considerable difference in my 1-car garage after I went to an insulated garage door from an uninsulated one.

As for the floor. My garage is currently concrete. I used rubber-like mats from Rockler last year. They work OK with regard to keeping my feet from the cold of the concrete. This year, I am contemplating putting down Dri-Core. The Dri-Core flooring goes down pretty easy and there is an insulation benefit.

Both Lowes and Home Depot have it. Here is the company site
http://www.dricore.com/en/eIndex.aspx

Rey
TS55|AT65|TDK15.6|OF1400|PS300|RO150E|MFS700|MFS400|FS2700|FS1400|FS1080|FS800|MFT3(2)|MFT1080(2)|MFT800(2)|CT33E(2)|Kapex|RS2E|ETS150/3|Domino

Offline ForumMFG

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Re: Shop Heating
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2009, 09:29 AM »
Wow guys.  Thank you so much for this information.  I had no idea any of these products where around and it's just what I am looking for.  Do you guys have a ball park price on the garage door installation kit and the flooring material?  Also, is the garage door useable if you use the kit?

Thanks again, this is perfect.

Offline WarnerConstCo.

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Re: Shop Heating
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2009, 12:43 PM »
I heat my 26x56 4 car garage in the winter with a wood burner.

I have like 1 1/2 walls insulated, nothing on the ceiling (dont want to make it hassle for storage).

I can keep the whole thing at 65 when it is 10 out.

I have a cabinet with a light in it to keep important things from freezing.

Offline Dan Rush

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Re: Shop Heating
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2009, 10:26 PM »
I've installed Dricore on a couple of jobs.  Worked great for it's intended purpose ( residential basements or slabs susceptible to moisture) But I would be wary of using it in a shop setting. 

In the manual, it appears to install easily and quickly, but only the easy part turned out to be true.  Unless the floor is a PERFECTLY flat plane, there will be a ton of shimming to perform.  We found that typical floors required at least double the amount of shimming, per tile, than the manual suggested. 

With the above shimming in mind, I would worry that heavy tools or tables, which should be very stable, may tend to wobble on an unsupported floor. On one job, on a very uneven floor, we detected considerable flex in the floor after installation, even after careful shimming.  Our solution was to inject cement mortar through drilled holes in the floor.  It worked, but cost a bit in material, and a lot in labor.

I would also consider the wearability of the chip board in a shop setting.  It may be fine for most, but I don't believe it could handle heavy abuse.

Again, a good product, for the right project.  Dan

Offline Rey Johnson

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Re: Shop Heating
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2009, 03:57 AM »
Dan,

Thanks for putting the DriCore into perspective there. The point you brought up about the level floor was actually counter to the benefit that I was expecting. My thoughts were that the DriCore would help to level out the floor. But, your experience has proved otherwise.

I'll go with actual experience over thoughts all the time. My floor is most certainly not level!!

Thanks
Rey
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Offline jzawacki

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Re: Shop Heating
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2009, 07:46 AM »
Joe,

My shop is pretty small 16 x 22. I have insultated the walls and vaulted ceiling and because the floor is poured concrete, I used a sub-floor product called dry-core which gives me an insulation factor on the floor. The heater is a Dayton Heavy-Duty electric heater model 2YU69 and can be wired 240 or 208. I have mine wired for 240 so the rated BTU is 34100 which is more than adequate for mt shop.

You can Google Dayton Heaters and find them sold on-line at places such as Granger etc.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,

John

Offline WarnerConstCo.

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Re: Shop Heating
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2009, 09:58 AM »
Dricore is that 4'x4' sub floor stuff with the plastic/rubber base, right.

That stuff is expensive and really does suck with a floor that has humps and bumps.

I have poured 1000's of yards of concrete and I can tell you as flat as you think it is, you will soon find out where the nasty spots are when try to put that stuff down.

Offline jzawacki

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Re: Shop Heating
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2009, 07:33 AM »
Dricore comes in 2' x 2' panels that have a plastic or vinyl backing and a wood top surface (http://www.dricore.com/en/eIndex.aspx). The panels have tung and grove on all four sides and you interconnect them in a stagered fashion (link you would when laying bricks). While it is true that not many concrete floors are 100% level, Dricore does have shim kits that when installed properly make for a very solid floor. Because the plastic bottom on the panels have stand-off's, the air gap in between the concrete and the panel give it an insulation factor that can raise the floor temperature by 6 degrees F. I installed them in my shop myself, a non-professional, and I can attest that they do work and I now have a solid and very comfortable shop.

Offline ForumMFG

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Re: Shop Heating
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2009, 12:12 PM »
Ruta,

Check this out.  I just bought this heater from Wangle over the weekend.  It can put out a max of 25,000 btu's.  Its a company called Enerco mnakes them in Cleveland Ohio and Wayne said he Paid $800 installed for it.  Not bad.

here is the link:
http://www.enerco.com/product2.aspx?id=370

Offline jzawacki

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Re: Shop Heating
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2009, 02:36 PM »
Yes, the surface is OSD but I covered the entire floor with a PVC based material with a raised coin pattern. It's only been installed for about 1 year now but it has been holding up very well and makes for easy clean-ups.

Offline tvgordon

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Re: Shop Heating
« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2009, 07:04 PM »
Last year I installed an Amana PTAC unit.  This is like the units you would find in a hotel or small apartment.  The advantage is that it doesn't need high ceilings or take up much space as it is placed in the wall and it provides cooling in the summer.  The disadvantage is it costs more to operate that I expected, keeping my (uninsulated) shop in the mid to upper 60's added about $150 to my electric bill during the coldest months.

Tom.

Offline wnagle

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Re: Shop Heating
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2010, 09:09 AM »
Joe,

Let us know how much your electric bill increases.  Also, are you going to keep your suop up to temp or just turn it on when you using it?
Wayne

 

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Offline woodshopdemos

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Re: Shop Heating
« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2010, 01:18 AM »
I had a BullDog gas heater installed 6 years ago. In the winter, I lower the thermostat when I am not there and it maintains 55 degrees (lowest on the  themostat. Raise it to 70 when Elena is due once or twice a week. Otherwise I can work at 55 degrees quite well.
   It has taken me about 5 years to really seal the shop totally. Even with all that, the heat costs about $74 a month...too much in my estimation.

John,
Thanks for the feedback.  $75 does sound a bit high.  As I recall your space is a two car garage.  Is the BullDog electric or gas? When you say sealed shop, does that include insulation in the walls and ceiling?  How do the puppies like 55 degrees, or do they only come to the shop when Elena is there.

Joe

Joe,
   It is a two car garage in size...never any car in it so far. Stud walls with insulation same for overhead. I dont know anything more that I could do to insulate it. This teen cold days, when I go out, I go out 2 hrs early and click it on and it heats thngs up to make thngs comfortable. Lasy year I left it on the thermostat at lowest sett - 55 degreess and it was nice environment but expensive on propane.
In memory of John Lucas (1937 - 2010)

Offline ForumMFG

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Re: Shop Heating
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2010, 10:41 AM »
I just went through the same thing.  I insulated my attic with 18 inches of blown-in insulation, R13 in the walls, and then applied drywall.  I have a gas radiant heater that puts out 25,000 BTU's that I purchased from Wnagle and before I did the insulation the heater was installed.  I was losing heat like crazy.  Once I insulated my shop, it improved greatly but yet again the heat was still escaping and cold air was coming in.  So, I purchased the Owens-Corning R8 garage door insulation kit.  I installed that and I used the scrap to insulate between each garage door panel and also to insulate all 4 sides of the door.  After I did that, I noticed that a lot of air was coming through the outlets.  I never understood this since all the walls were insulated but they sell insulation plates that are in the shape of your outlets.  I installed those.  Any cracks in the floor I filled with the correct caulking.  After all that was complete, I can shut the heat off and the shop will stay at 45 degrees all day everyday regardless of the temp outside.  I too only turn the heat on when I am in the garage, it works great.  One other thing I did was I added a fan.  I mounted the fan in a way that it will blow the hot air that stays above the heater around the shop.  This actually improved the heating condition in my shop greatly.  I would also like to mount a ceiling fan in the middle of my shop, I think it will improve it more. The only down side to my heater is that I have to have a way for fresh air to come in.  So, I mounted a 12"x12" vent to one of the walls.  When the heat is not on, I shut the insulated door I created that now covers up this vent.  When the heat is on, I open it...   A couple tips I would like to share, when trying to figure out where all the cracks are and where all the cold air could be coming in, during the day I would shut the lights off and look for light from the outside.  I noticed a lot of light around the garage door and that's why I insulated between each panel and around the door.  Another tip is, take a lighter and move around with it to all your outlets, cracks, whatever.  If you see the flame move that means cold air is coming in.  for people who have thermostats like me who can't shut it off and can only leave it at the lowest setting which should be 55 degrees.  Open the thermostat to see the guts, take a very small piece of thin cardboard or whatever, fold it in half and then put it in-between the contact point of which creates a closed loop in the wiring which then tells the thermostat to turn on.  When the temperature falls below 55 degrees the 2 points of contact will not be made because something is in the way..  I also recommend getting a normal thermometer, this would work well for the people who a thermostat on the heater itself but only use the 1-2-3-4-5 scale.

-Dave

Offline ForumMFG

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Re: Shop Heating
« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2010, 12:34 PM »
Joe, I have moved in.  That happened in November, but it took me almost 2 months to get to the point where I am right now which is designing my next project.   My garage was bare studs with no electric and no heat, plus I had all the equipment in the garage to work around.