Author Topic: Power options for shop and house  (Read 3081 times)

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Offline ear3

  • Posts: 4102
Power options for shop and house
« on: February 23, 2016, 12:52 PM »
This could just as easily go in the Home Improvement section, but since it also concerns the shop, I'm going to post it here.

I've made a lot of improvements to my shop over the past year, and it is finally set up in a way that maximizes the space limits of occupying one-half of a two car garage (detached from the house).

In order to move to the next level, though, which involves, among other things, getting a 220V bandsaw and maybe an independent dust collection unit, I have to address the power issue.  Shop currently runs on a single 15Amp breaker.  So I've gotten by by running a heavy gauge cord from another outlet in the house to plug in the vac when I do things like run the Kapex, the OF2200, the router table, or the planer.  No automatic start, but it works.

This coming spring, I plan on ordering some Ductless AC units for the house, so my wife and I can finally be comfortable in the increasingly sweltering New York summers.  I thought I would take the opportunity -- since the installation will require a reconfiguration of the power -- to address the wiring issues in my shop.

Most if not all the work will be farmed out to a licensed electrician, since I'm a dunce when it comes to electricity, and don't foresee having the time to get my knowledge to a level where I would be comfortable messing around with the panel.

There is an existing 220V breaker on the main panel (pictured  below), which fed the AC unit we used to have.  But the wires only run to the front of the house on the opposite side from where the garage is, so, some 80 feet away from the garage.  Even if I were to dedicate this line to the Ductless, it still wouldn't address the power issues to the shop.  So it seems like the best option is to do a subpanel.

So my question is about the size and location of the subpanel.  The main panel is located in the basement at the front of the house, approximately 70 to 80 feet from the garage.  The idea would be to run the shop and the Ductless off of the subpanel, so I would want something that would be capable of simultaneously feeding the AC unit for the house, a 220V stationary tool (like a bandsaw, table saw or lathe), dust collection, and maybe at some point, air filtration/conditioning for the shop.   The outdoor part of the Ductless unit would be located at the back of the house, only about 10 feet from the garage.  I have 100 Amp service on the main panel to the house, so I'm wondering if that provides enough slack for all the circuits I would need on the subpanel.

Or, would it make sense to use the existing 220V for the AC, then run a new 220V line to the garage?

Again, I plan on having an electrician do the work.  But I just want to get a sense of the scope of the job and the questions to ask so the work is done right.  I don't even have a sense of how much the job would cost.  Also, if anyone can recommend a decent, honest electrician in New York City (Queens specifically), it would be appreciated.  Most of my contacts in the trades are GCs and carpenters -- I would prefer dealing with the electrician directly rather than having a GC take a slice off the top.
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T 18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TID 18 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS-EC 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • AGC 18-115 • CT 26 w/BT module • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Power options for shop and house
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2016, 01:14 PM »
If you are running a big AC and shop then probably 2 breakers the same way an oven would be in its own. But I doubt you need more than 15A on each side. (I am not a Sparkie)

You could put an Eu outlet in with the us 220v of you plan on a NAINA tool.

Offline rvieceli

  • Posts: 1221
Re: Power options for shop and house
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2016, 01:23 PM »
Edward - Generally speaking, in doing what you want to do, you would install the sub panel in the garage/shop. It would be fed from a breaker in the house main panel.

You might be able to get by with a 60/65 amp sub panel in the garage. You should probably do a load calc to determine what you need both in the house and the shop. You might want to take the opportunity to upgrade the house panel to 200 amps but you might be able to get by without doing that.

Your electrician can determine the best route for you and give you some options.

You would most likely run the feeder wire to the subpanel in conduit underground. How deep will be determined by the electrical codes in your area. Many folks use an aluminum wire for that feeder as it's cheaper than copper and the aluminum wire of today is worlds apart from the problem stuff in the 60's.

Ron


Offline Holzhacker

  • Posts: 967
    • www.aic-chicago.com
Re: Power options for shop and house
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2016, 03:03 PM »
A couple thoughts regarding your situation:
- Not to be picky but ... there is no such thing as a subpanel. That is street lingo. While we all use it, and most people know what you mean it isn't actually correct terminology. The main panel in the house would be your 'service panel'. Any panel downstream of that would be a 'distribution panel' (not really a sub panel). Ok, enough picky, picky.
- Based on the picture you've got a 100A panel and service. You should be fine but you could also run into problems. I agree with others that your sparky should do a load calc for the install.
- Running a 60A or a bit more to the shop may or may not work depending on your equipment. If you are using lots of big stuff together it may not, if you watch it and don't run lots of stuff at once it should be fine.
- On the other hand depending on your equipment, set up and use the 100A main could end up too small. If the wifey is cranking the AC and you are cranking the power tools, might be a problem.
- Based on the distance you'll need to de-rate the wire and upsize
- I would suggest you put together a realistic list of what you'll use now and maybe later in the shop to show your sparky. If this is going to be hobby work you'll probably be fine. If this is going to be hardcore hobby work you might want to upgrade to a 200A service and 100A subpanel :)
"The Code is not a ceiling to reach but a floor to work up from"

Offline Peter_C

  • Posts: 869
Re: Power options for shop and house
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2016, 03:34 PM »
For a rough estimate you will be looking at least $1,800 and up to $2500 for a new main panel installed including materials and permit. That is assuming it is even possible, as the wiring coming into the house will dictate. Self install is not really feasible unless you are fast you won't have electricity (Refrigerator!) for a couple of days during the week. I know you already said you would hire someone.

After an electrician performs a load calc, I would recommend installing a 100amp panel in the garage with the appropriate copper wire for it to handle 100amps. That way in the future should you want to upgrade your main service panel to a 200amp service you can swap the breaker going to the "sub panel" [wink] for a 100amp.

Garage outlets must be wired for 20amps per code today. The more outlets the better. A 50amp 220volt outlet is really nice to have for things like compressors, small welders, bandsaws, etc.

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Power options for shop and house
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2016, 08:15 PM »
Way back 25+ years ago I upgradd to a 200 A sevice.
The power compay said that they do that live.

It was stressful... all of hoover dam at my fiinger tips on a bath mat with rubber gloves.

It was total madeness compared to the OSHA and work-safe these days.

I think I put the 40A service from the house in the garage...

It was a 15A to the garage, and the little birds used to jump off the hot wire when I turned the table saw on, and the neon lights fickered off until the saw came up to speed...

Offline HMR

  • Posts: 78
Re: Power options for shop and house
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2016, 10:23 PM »
I just had my shop (2 car garage) subpanel upgraded from 60A to 100A and added several 230V outlets.  The electrician ran new wiring from my existing 200A main panel to the new 100A panel (approx 100' of wire).  I got 3 quotes for the job which included a couple items other than the shop power.  Quotes ranged from $2500-$3500.  The guy with the best experience and the best personality was also the most expensive.  Here's where it gets good:  Turns out, he wanted 2 new custom benches for his house.  I built him 2 benches (~$500 in materials) and he completed the electrical work, including 100% of materials, for FREE.  Best deal I've worked in a long time.  Perhaps you could find a sparky in need of your woodworking skills?

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 4102
Re: Power options for shop and house
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2016, 03:19 PM »
Thanks for all the replies.  This will really help as I start the planning process.
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T 18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TID 18 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS-EC 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • AGC 18-115 • CT 26 w/BT module • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline rizzoa13

  • Posts: 587
Re: Power options for shop and house
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2016, 08:32 AM »
Way back 25+ years ago I upgradd to a 200 A sevice.
The power compay said that they do that live.

It was stressful... all of hoover dam at my fiinger tips on a bath mat with rubber gloves.

It was total madeness compared to the OSHA and work-safe these days.

I think I put the 40A service from the house in the garage...

It was a 15A to the garage, and the little birds used to jump off the hot wire when I turned the table saw on, and the neon lights fickered off until the saw came up to speed...

That's pretty stressful to think about Holmz! I had a similiar situation. I was upgrading and moving my panel and had done all the rough from the meter tk the new spot and had it inspected. All that was left to do was land the circuits in the new box (shorten them) and make my connection to the meter.

The electrical company was SO swamped getting ready for hurricane sandy that they couldn't come out and turn my service off to make the swap. The guy actually recommended turning off the main in the panel so there wasn't any draw on the meter and just pulling the meter socket straight out. I was not convinced even though I'd heard  the same from other people.

Fate decided to knock out all of our power for the day and I took that as a good time to pull the socket, make my connections and re-connect. One positive story from Hurricane Sandy at least

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 4102
Re: Power options for shop and house
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2016, 08:47 AM »
That's pretty funny @rizzoa13 Even though I'm in Queens, the only thing I lost during Sandy was my internet service.

Way back 25+ years ago I upgradd to a 200 A sevice.
The power compay said that they do that live.

It was stressful... all of hoover dam at my fiinger tips on a bath mat with rubber gloves.

It was total madeness compared to the OSHA and work-safe these days.

I think I put the 40A service from the house in the garage...

It was a 15A to the garage, and the little birds used to jump off the hot wire when I turned the table saw on, and the neon lights fickered off until the saw came up to speed...

That's pretty stressful to think about Holmz! I had a similiar situation. I was upgrading and moving my panel and had done all the rough from the meter tk the new spot and had it inspected. All that was left to do was land the circuits in the new box (shorten them) and make my connection to the meter.

The electrical company was SO swamped getting ready for hurricane sandy that they couldn't come out and turn my service off to make the swap. The guy actually recommended turning off the main in the panel so there wasn't any draw on the meter and just pulling the meter socket straight out. I was not convinced even though I'd heard  the same from other people.

Fate decided to knock out all of our power for the day and I took that as a good time to pull the socket, make my connections and re-connect. One positive story from Hurricane Sandy at least
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T 18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TID 18 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS-EC 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • AGC 18-115 • CT 26 w/BT module • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3