Author Topic: LED Lighting Help (Cheese, Please)  (Read 3601 times)

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Offline jeffinsgf

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LED Lighting Help (Cheese, Please)
« on: June 11, 2020, 01:33 PM »
I ordered 10 x 8' Barrina LED 5000K lights. Particularly over my bench area, I want it bright and even. With 9 foot ceiling height, how far apart would you guys who have installed LEDs place the fixtures? Since the connector cables they provide are 4-feet, I'm guessing something around that is optimal???

Online TSO_Products

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Re: LED Lighting Help (Cheese, Please)
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2020, 01:54 PM »
Work area and task lighting deserves more attention on the FOG as a topic:

for all the brightness LED's can provide, keep in mind the diffusion in addition to placement/spacing of ightsources to minimize shadows - such as when you're bending over to take a closer look.

Factor in the color and reflectivity of the walls or whatever constitutes "wall" such as cabinets, etc.

I checked our lighting with a newly purchased handheld lightmeter to see what we're getting across our space. Just for kicks I dug out my decades old GREENLEE lightmeter and discovered signifianct reading variances between these instruments.

It took me a minute to realize the GREENLEE has a diffuser which providesd "area" metering while the "new" meter essentially acts like a spotmeter. You photographers out there will recognize the significance right away.

I'll be interested in contributions from others. Time to bring shop lighting out of the middle ages [wink]

Hans

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: LED Lighting Help (Cheese, Please)
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2020, 02:03 PM »
The Barrina fixtures are good looking and easy to install but they’re not the best for task lighting because the two rows of leds are mounted at 45*s off straight down. The spread of light is about 220* so the ceiling itself has to reflect or you loose a lot of the light. If mounted directly on a white flat ceiling they’re good for ambient lighting but unless the ceiling is high you’ll have bright light shining right into your eyes when you glance up. Also, at 5000*k they’re a little too cool. I prefer 4000*k.

These 10,000 lumen 4000*k shop lights are on sale at Rockler. These are great for over the bench. The leds are mounted to point straight down and light is very bright and a nice color.

Offline Cheese

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Re: LED Lighting Help (Cheese, Please)
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2020, 03:45 PM »
Jeff, I hung my Barrina LED’s from a 7 1/2’ ceiling at a 40” center to center distance.  That allows for the connection on each end and the 90 degree radius. 

I mounted them directly to the unpainted floor joists. I have no issues with glare and the 3 separate 8’ LEDs are minimally twice as bright as the 4 each 8’ fluorescents with reflectors that I removed.

Offline AstroKeith

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Re: LED Lighting Help (Cheese, Please)
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2020, 04:03 PM »
After I upgraded to LED fixtures I had a very good overall light coverage. But I found that a few real weren't so good, especially at the bandsaw and drill press. So I added little LED spot lights that are mounted on a stiff sprung clip and bendy stalks ( from amazon of course). These made a great difference to my accuracy.
Retired engineer/scientist

Offline jeffinsgf

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Re: LED Lighting Help (Cheese, Please)
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2020, 04:06 PM »
Thanks, Cheese.



Offline Peter_C

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Re: LED Lighting Help (Cheese, Please)
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2020, 04:12 PM »
My preference is for around 3000k. Not blue, and not yellow. To each their own.

Offline Cheese

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Re: LED Lighting Help (Cheese, Please)
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2020, 05:34 PM »
My preference is for around 3000k. Not blue, and not yellow. To each their own.

To my eyes 3000k is yellow, 4100k is white/neutral, 5000k is blue and 6000k starts to turn purple.

Online rvieceli

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Re: LED Lighting Help (Cheese, Please)
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2020, 06:15 PM »
Jeff, I hung my Barrina LED’s from a 7 1/2’ ceiling at a 40” center to center distance.  That allows for the connection on each end and the 90 degree radius. 


@Cheese does this mean in a row like the ties on a railroad track ( parallel to each other) OR in a row like the rails on a railroad track (end to end)?

Thanks
Ron

Offline Peter_C

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Re: LED Lighting Help (Cheese, Please)
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2020, 08:53 PM »
My preference is for around 3000k. Not blue, and not yellow. To each their own.

To my eyes 3000k is yellow, 4100k is white/neutral, 5000k is blue and 6000k starts to turn purple.
I looked up what I have and they are 3500k. Still rather be more towards the yellow than blue, and 5000k is way to blue for me. Can always augment with portable side lighting for things like auto body work.

Offline Cheese

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Re: LED Lighting Help (Cheese, Please)
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2020, 12:08 AM »
]I looked up what I have and they are 3500k. Still rather be more towards the yellow than blue, and 5000k is way to blue for me. Can always augment with portable side lighting for things like auto body work.

Yes, 3500k is still biased more towards the yellow spectrum than to the blue spectrum, 3000k is definitely yellow based, however at 3500k it's slowly becoming a more white light source than a yellow light source.
Unfortunately, it's not a linear function, so 3500k while easing towards the white side, still has a more distinctly yellow/neutral color while 4100k is definitely more white. Thus a slight 600k difference in color temperature yields drastically different overall color rendering results.

Ya, this whole lighting thing is really tricky. Especially when it comes to LED's. For fluorescents the temperature color of the lamp is controlled by the phosphors that are used inside of the lamps, and that puts a stake in the ground. For LED's, it's a combination of the semiconductor material and the electronics that control the lamp. In the past, you couldn't make 3000k LEDs appear to have the light qualities of 5000k LED's but recently that barrier has also been breeched. Now there are electronic controls that allow you to continuously vary the color temperature of the LED from 2800k to 6000K. 

I have outdoor lighting in the front yard that is in the 2800k-3200k range. I make it a point to ensure that any additional lighting added to the front yard remains within this same color temperature.

The outdoor lighting in the back yard varies between 4100k-5000k and even though there is a 900k difference in color variation, it all works rather well because the eye doesn't pick up on the color temperature differences unless you stare at the lighting.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2020, 12:40 AM by Cheese »

Offline Cheese

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Re: LED Lighting Help (Cheese, Please)
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2020, 12:30 AM »
@Cheese does this mean in a row like the ties on a railroad track ( parallel to each other) OR in a row like the rails on a railroad track (end to end)?
 
I really like your analogy Ron...one of the best ever.  [big grin]  I wish all conversations could be so simple and so easy to understand.  [not worthy]

It's definitely the railroad track thing, it's just incredible the amount of light these things produce and also the quality of light that these things provide. There's no going back...that's only a fools solution.

Online rvieceli

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Re: LED Lighting Help (Cheese, Please)
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2020, 06:59 AM »
@Cheese does this mean in a row like the ties on a railroad track ( parallel to each other) OR in a row like the rails on a railroad track (end to end)?
 
I really like your analogy Ron...one of the best ever.  [big grin]  I wish all conversations could be so simple and so easy to understand.  [not worthy]

It's definitely the railroad track thing, it's just incredible the amount of light these things produce and also the quality of light that these things provide. There's no going back...that's only a fools solution.

@Cheese

Thanks I think. Unfortunately I think you put me in the that was a great commercial but i can't remember what you were selling category.  [eek]

So was it TIES or RAILS?  [big grin]

Ron




Offline Cheese

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Re: LED Lighting Help (Cheese, Please)
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2020, 10:17 AM »

So was it TIES or RAILS?  [big grin]


 [doh]  Ties  [doh]

Offline jeffinsgf

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Re: LED Lighting Help (Cheese, Please)
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2020, 07:33 AM »
 
I really like your analogy Ron...one of the best ever.  [big grin]  I wish all conversations could be so simple and so easy to understand.  [not worthy]


+1. Nothing could have been clearer.  [smile]

Offline Birdhunter

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Re: LED Lighting Help (Cheese, Please)
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2020, 01:47 AM »
After running through several Home Depot LED fixtures, I bought 8 from Rockler. I have 1 over each of my two MFTs and each of my big machines. I have no clue as to “color” but they have lasted over a year of nearly continuous use.

I do have 2 over the big SawStop. I need more light there for some reason.
Birdhunter

Offline NuthinFancy

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Re: LED Lighting Help (Cheese, Please)
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2020, 03:28 PM »
When I was designing my workshop, I ran across this link (Visual Interior Tool) which proved quite helpful in determining the number and location of lights for my 30' x 14' shop.

Lighting is very subjective, and my eyes are not getting any younger, so I opted to be on the high side when designing for footcandles.  Side note: foot candles and lumens are different units of measurement - take care when comparing lighting units

I designed the shop with a 10-foot ceiling, knowing I would be putting in a drop ceiling grid, primarily so I could use 2' x 4' 'troffer' lighting fixtures.  This gave me a wide variety of LED (fluorescents were never a consideration) options to choose from and made installation relatively easy. 

After much experimentation in the visual tool, I decided on three rows of four lights oriented lengthwise along the long dimension of the rectangular footprint of the shop with each row on separate switch by the door.  This allows me to use as much or as little light/energy as needed.  I rarely use all three rows, even at night, but at times I am pleased to have the option of a little too much light.

I choose 5000k for the color and very pleased - not too yellow, not too white.  Bought the fixtures from Bee's Lighting.  One unit was DOA and they replaced it at no cost to me, including shipping.  I would buy from them again.

I hope this is useful information.
"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy."  Red Green

Offline dicktill

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Re: LED Lighting Help (Cheese, Please)
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2021, 05:25 PM »
Resurrecting this thread from last year.

I need to replace 17 four-foot dual-fluorescent shop lights in an approximately 900 square foot shop with LED's. Someone recently suggested these https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200832963_200832963 in another thread (sorry, lost track of which). But these are only 4000 lumens, and I think each of my current fluorescent bulbs is 3200, so I would need more of these fixtures for equal lighting. The Northern Tool ad doesn't list the color temperature either. I think @Cheese is recommending 4100*k. It also seems to me that these aren't particularly energy efficient at 42 watts.

Another question is how many lumens per square foot should I be shooting for. My ceiling is about 9' high, and is white painted drywall.

I want to do this only once; does anyone have a better recommendation?

Thanks, Dick

Offline neilc

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Re: LED Lighting Help (Cheese, Please)
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2021, 09:45 PM »
Go to 1000bulbs.com - good selection and their reps are very capable of helping you with the choices.

I put these up in my last shop.  I went with 5000K.  Very happy with them.


https://www.1000bulbs.com/fil/categories/5000k-led-wraparound-fixtures

In my new shop with my new home, I went with 5000K 4’ fixtures through my builder.  I don’t know the brand however.

Offline Cheese

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Re: LED Lighting Help (Cheese, Please)
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2021, 10:59 PM »
Where to start... [smile]...there was an earlier thread that touched on all brands and all the options...I'd suggest you search Barrina and it will probably come up.

I had rows of 8' fluorescents in the shop that drew 75 watts per bulb. All were Philips branded and at the 4100 Kelvin temperature. I  replaced all of them with Barrina LED's at 5K color temp because at the time 4100 was not available. I couldn't be happier. More light, less electricity usage and better color rendering. I'd never go back to fluorescents...why would you?

Offline jeffinsgf

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Re: LED Lighting Help (Cheese, Please)
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2021, 06:37 AM »
I bought the Barrina LEDs on Cheese's recommendation and couldn't be happier. We shoot quite a few Woodpeckers videos in my shop, and the head videographer loves the lighting in my shop. They are a little glaring when you look directly at them, but once you get over looking at them to see "them", all you have is nice even bright light.

Offline squall_line

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Re: LED Lighting Help (Cheese, Please)
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2021, 07:49 AM »
Where to start... [smile]...there was an earlier thread that touched on all brands and all the options...I'd suggest you search Barrina and it will probably come up.

Searched, fell down a rabbit hole, had to climb out to eat breakfast.

So much great information has been collected on this forum over the years, I love it!

Offline Cheese

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Re: LED Lighting Help (Cheese, Please)
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2021, 09:10 AM »

Searched, fell down a rabbit hole, had to climb out to eat breakfast.


Found it...[big grin]...this thread started with a complaint about garage lighting and a consideration of using a Syslite Duo for the garage.

https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tools-accessories/syslite-duo-led-light-for-workshop-garage/30/

Online rvieceli

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Re: LED Lighting Help (Cheese, Please)
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2021, 09:16 AM »
I love my Barrinas too but consider purchasing an extra or two the US distributor doesn’t seem to keep stock. I had to warranty one of my 8 foot ones and they didn’t have any replacements. They refunded me $ and then I bought some extras.

Ron


Offline Chainring

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Re: LED Lighting Help (Cheese, Please)
« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2021, 06:47 PM »
Thus far there has been talk of color temperature, expressed in Kelvin, such as 3000K, 4000K, 5000K, etc... Color temperature largely comes down to personal preference. Most warm white bulbs are around 2700K, daylight around 5500K, horrid blue replacement auto headlights around 6500K and up. Personally, for task based lighting, I very much prefer 5000K. For some folks, 5000K is a bit brutal in how it can feel somewhat clinical, but I like that because I don't want any strange yellow/orange/red or blue color casts. Relaxing at night, definitely a warmer light.

Something not mentioned so far in this thread is Color Rendering Index (CRI) and the potential impact it can have on the accuracy of colors. Besides being a noob woodworker, I'm a tad bit geeky over flashlights and I'm also into photography. Common theme of light? Yep. Low CRI lights in photography can make a person's skin look sickly. Colors aren't accurate and the overall quality can just be not awesome. The biggest impact I can imagine a low CRI light would have in woodworking is in finishes. A red you thought looked nice in the store or in your shop doesn't look quite right in sunlight (100 CRI). If you were looking at it under a light of 5500K (or so) and a high CRI, it'd probably look the way you hoped.

Coming back to this thread... I wanted some good lighting for our tiny workshed and I also wanted something with a decent CRI. I stumbled across the Barrina 4' and 8' in 5000K and I went with the 6 pack of 4' lights. A representative from Barrina claims the CRI value is somewhere in the neighborhood of 82 or 85, though I don't recall the exact spec. I'm happy to report their claims are accurate. How does one measure these values? In my case, a Sekonic C-800 Spectromaster.

Here's a good article on CRI.
https://www.waveformlighting.com/high-cri-led

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: LED Lighting Help (Cheese, Please)
« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2021, 07:23 PM »
I really like the size, extreme light weight, and streamlined form of the Barrina fixtures but I don't like that the strips of LEDs are angled 45 degrees off the vertical axis. that broadcasts a substantial amount of the light towards the ceiling so if you don't have a flat light colored ceiling right behind the fixture a lot of that light is wasted. Also results in light shining in your eyes when across the room from the fixture.

Also, I prefer 4000 degree Kelvin color. To me and my wife it's a better compromise between incandescent and daylight.

My favorite LED fixtures seem to be out of stock. Bought them from Rockler. More like conventional fixtures in form compared to the very slick looking Barrina's but still light enough for easy installation. The LED's are within a shallow rectangular enclosure and aim straight down. Merely workman like in appearance but they're 10,000 lumens at 4000K color. Also bought a couple of 5000LM versions. Wish they still had some product to link to. Haven't seen anything identical elsewhere.

Offline Chainring

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Re: LED Lighting Help (Cheese, Please)
« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2021, 08:30 PM »
The Barrina fixtures definitely could use some form of diffusion. Although, at their price and quality I'm certainly not going to ding them any points. In my case, I was coming from 2 x 4' fluorescent fixtures that were on their last legs and barely putting out any light. Three of the Barrina 4' units and the whole work shed is now lit up very well. Sure beats straining to see everything!

Offline Mini Me

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Re: LED Lighting Help (Cheese, Please)
« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2021, 09:03 PM »
I have tried a number of light systems and the best one to date is this type of panel....
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/LED-Panel-Troffer-Light-300x1200-600x600-300x600mm-Tri-Colour-option-from-29-95/192452386551?hash=item2ccf0e5ef7:g:QyAAAOSwV6heRHUj

A panel such as this does not have tubes in it but hundreds of separate LEDS and gives an extremely even light distribution and can be installed flush to the ceiling if that is an issue.