Author Topic: Kapex instead of tablesaw  (Read 4387 times)

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Offline koenbro

  • Posts: 70
Kapex instead of tablesaw
« on: February 08, 2019, 11:58 AM »
I am a home gamer with space limited to one car place in a 3-car garage (plus 6x15 storage room). I have a Bosch 4100 table saw and I hate it: poor dust collection, sloppy fence. I like its mobility, and when the weather allows, use it outdoors. Because of the small space the ability to move my tools around is very important. Mostly use it for cross cuts using a sled, that I dialed in using the 5-cut method, but would be happy to get rid of it.

Instead of a larger, more precise, heavier TS, I am thinking of a Kapex. Have the MFT/3 and TS55 and two 1040 rails (plus the MFT rail), so am comfortable handling sheets that way, and would use the Kapex mainly for crosscuts. I know Bosch, Makita, Dewalt all have good miter saws, but I want great dust collection, and will happily go with the Kapex, if I can figure out a way to do long (6-8') rips with the TS55. Productivity, speed are not an issue, precision and cleanliness are more important, and am very happy with my Festools.

What are the flaws in this plan? Suggestion for long rips, or any other thoughts? Thanks to all.

MFT/3 • TS 55 REQ • Carvex PS420 EBQ + Accessories • OF1400 + LR32 + MFS400 • Domino DF500 • ETS EC150/5 EQplus • DTS 400 REQplus • CXS • CT 26E • Fuji Q4 + 3M PPS

Offline parrishwoodworks

  • Posts: 8
Re: Kapex instead of tablesaw
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2019, 12:17 PM »
Longer rail or connect the rails you have?

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1781
Re: Kapex instead of tablesaw
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2019, 12:34 PM »
It depends on what you want to do.  A table saw is a pretty versatile piece of equipment.  While the track saw and miter saw can do some of what the table saw does, there are a few capacities you lose, however, maybe you don't need them or you have another tool in the arsenal?  Cutting dado's or grooves would be the first thing that comes to mind.  Cutting tenon shoulders can be done on the miter saw, but there are more limitations and the results will vary a little based on the pressure you apply when using the trenching mode. 

If dust collection is your primary complaint with the Bosch saw, take a look at the Sawstop Jobsite saw.  Sawstop pays more attention to dust collection than many others, so you might be pleasantly surprised.  It comes on a mobile stand, but you might still need a crosscut sled.
-Raj

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 847
Re: Kapex instead of tablesaw
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2019, 12:48 PM »
If you have a table saw keep it. You will be disappointed without it and while a great tool the track saw can't do it all. It can do most, but it's not the best choice for everything.

Betting on the Kapex might not be your best choice. Take a look around at the failures listed on FOG. I have one, it failed and I am repairing it this time. Mine lasted a lot longer than many others, but there are some that have been repaired multiple times.

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1293
Re: Kapex instead of tablesaw
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2019, 01:10 PM »
Suffice to say this: If a table saw could be replaced by a track saw system and/or a mitre saw, Festool wouldn't have been showing recently a prototype saw with the SawStop technology. Ask yourself if a cordless drill can replace a dress press, and vice versa, and your answer will give you clues if you would want to get rid of your table saw.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 597
Re: Kapex instead of tablesaw
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2019, 01:17 PM »
I understand your issue, I have the even smaller bosch table saw, sure its small and light, but it's good aspects end there.  My plan is to get the CMS and then bring in an insert for a TS 75.  Gain router table, second bigger saw, a table saw and maintain dust collection. 

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 847
Re: Kapex instead of tablesaw
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2019, 01:46 PM »
I understand your issue, I have the even smaller bosch table saw, sure its small and light, but it's good aspects end there.  My plan is to get the CMS and then bring in an insert for a TS 75.  Gain router table, second bigger saw, a table saw and maintain dust collection.

The inserts come up for sale on FOG every now and then. I've only noticed ones sold by people in the US. I am speculating they imported them in a quest to get something nobody else has only to find out that it was not the be all end all. The inconvenience of setting the CMS up and futzing with it make a standalone saw a better decision all the way around. It's one thing to capitalize on the "system", but there is no reason settle (or suffer) because it is a part of the "system".

I can't think of a single case where it makes sense to buy the CMS table saw insert. You can get a nice, portable table saw for $400 USD that will outperform the CMS setup. Dewalt makes a great portable saw, others make some nice mid-size saws or as another user posted SawStop does.

Looking at the UK site the insert it £312 and the Stopper (fence) is £200. Prices are without VAT and translate to $662 USD. If you need the extension table its another $323 USD. This assumes you don't need the CMS base unit or slider. Combine it all and you are getting close to the portable SawStop or could buy at least (2) other saws.

Offline Roachmill

  • Posts: 156
Re: Kapex instead of tablesaw
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2019, 02:16 PM »
I got rid of my TS which, while not big (a DeWalt 745), was too big for the space I have (a 4x10 shed). The track saw does most of what I would want but that's with a load of add-ons. Bevels cuts and small pieces on a sled are probably the big misses.

Long rips, wide or narrow, are pretty straight forward with something like the senica parallel guides... and long enough rails of course.

I sold my little and large mitre saws and got a Kapex. Lovely saw but it still makes working with smaller pieces a conundrum some times where a TS and a sled would be a doddle. The wings a very accurate compared to the DeWalt type (you can use a DeWalt stand with the wings if you shorten the legs this saving on the UG stand) but that's only any use for longer bits.

The dust extraction is good but, to get the best, you'll need the 50mm hose as the 27mm is only so-so. Add in zero clearance fences and there's yet more dust.

While there's many ways to skin a cat, you'll miss a table saw one way or another IMHO.




Offline Tom Gensmer

  • Posts: 695
  • Residential Remodeler in Minnesota
Re: Kapex instead of tablesaw
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2019, 02:59 PM »
Pull-Push saws are amazing and worth taking a look at. I own a Erika 70 and would not be without it. Erika saws are available in North America, or you can import a Festool Precisio CS50 or CS70 110v from Great Britain and change the cord end.

You get to keep the table saw functionality, and arguably safer crosscutting compared to a miter saw.
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Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 597
Re: Kapex instead of tablesaw
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2019, 03:14 PM »
I understand your issue, I have the even smaller bosch table saw, sure its small and light, but it's good aspects end there.  My plan is to get the CMS and then bring in an insert for a TS 75.  Gain router table, second bigger saw, a table saw and maintain dust collection.

The inserts come up for sale on FOG every now and then. I've only noticed ones sold by people in the US. I am speculating they imported them in a quest to get something nobody else has only to find out that it was not the be all end all. The inconvenience of setting the CMS up and futzing with it make a standalone saw a better decision all the way around. It's one thing to capitalize on the "system", but there is no reason settle (or suffer) because it is a part of the "system".

I can't think of a single case where it makes sense to buy the CMS table saw insert. You can get a nice, portable table saw for $400 USD that will outperform the CMS setup. Dewalt makes a great portable saw, others make some nice mid-size saws or as another user posted SawStop does.

Looking at the UK site the insert it £312 and the Stopper (fence) is £200. Prices are without VAT and translate to $662 USD. If you need the extension table its another $323 USD. This assumes you don't need the CMS base unit or slider. Combine it all and you are getting close to the portable SawStop or could buy at least (2) other saws.

I have a portable table saw for $400, it's not nice.   If someone already owns or plans to own a CMS for a router, then they are almost there.  For me I would have a TS75 always in it's insert ready to go. It would only come out of the insert when I need it for something else. No different than someone having an OF2200 always in their CMS when far less of a router would do, but when they need it, they can always pop it out and use it as a router.

I have nothing against dedicated tools, most folks would love to have one for everything, it's all about space.  Since people don't tend to use router tables or table saws all the time, having something that takes the space of one and swap around has major appeal.  CMS also is one of the few options I know of to be able to have sliding table on any kind of small/portable saw.  Some amount of futzing is fine when it means your can pack your shop away when not in use, or not be stocking different accessories/blades for different tools, and can all around increase the us of a single tool.   I would agree a TS75 with insert is not an ideal saw, but neither is what I have now, it's definitely not worse.

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 847
Re: Kapex instead of tablesaw
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2019, 04:39 PM »
I understand your issue, I have the even smaller bosch table saw, sure its small and light, but it's good aspects end there.  My plan is to get the CMS and then bring in an insert for a TS 75.  Gain router table, second bigger saw, a table saw and maintain dust collection.

The inserts come up for sale on FOG every now and then. I've only noticed ones sold by people in the US. I am speculating they imported them in a quest to get something nobody else has only to find out that it was not the be all end all. The inconvenience of setting the CMS up and futzing with it make a standalone saw a better decision all the way around. It's one thing to capitalize on the "system", but there is no reason settle (or suffer) because it is a part of the "system".

I can't think of a single case where it makes sense to buy the CMS table saw insert. You can get a nice, portable table saw for $400 USD that will outperform the CMS setup. Dewalt makes a great portable saw, others make some nice mid-size saws or as another user posted SawStop does.

Looking at the UK site the insert it £312 and the Stopper (fence) is £200. Prices are without VAT and translate to $662 USD. If you need the extension table its another $323 USD. This assumes you don't need the CMS base unit or slider. Combine it all and you are getting close to the portable SawStop or could buy at least (2) other saws.

I have a portable table saw for $400, it's not nice.   If someone already owns or plans to own a CMS for a router, then they are almost there.  For me I would have a TS75 always in it's insert ready to go. It would only come out of the insert when I need it for something else. No different than someone having an OF2200 always in their CMS when far less of a router would do, but when they need it, they can always pop it out and use it as a router.

I have nothing against dedicated tools, most folks would love to have one for everything, it's all about space.  Since people don't tend to use router tables or table saws all the time, having something that takes the space of one and swap around has major appeal.  CMS also is one of the few options I know of to be able to have sliding table on any kind of small/portable saw.  Some amount of futzing is fine when it means your can pack your shop away when not in use, or not be stocking different accessories/blades for different tools, and can all around increase the us of a single tool.   I would agree a TS75 with insert is not an ideal saw, but neither is what I have now, it's definitely not worse.

I was pushing you a little to make sure it is what you really want since there are tradeoffs for what you get. BTW the insert for the TS55 (not what you want) is listed in the classifieds: http://festoolownersgroup.com/classifieds/for-sale-cms-ts-55-r-module-in-maxi-systainer/

It's a cool $550 some of which is probably excessive mark up assuming there is no other way to get one. It looks to be never used like a lot of tools that seller has listed. I don't recall but a few years ago there was someone who lived in Germany, but moved back to the states who literally bought every tool and accessory that Festool made in order to build a shop when he returned to the US. More of a collection than anything. If that is him it is probably the equivalent of NOS.

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 5895
  • Festool Baby.....
Re: Kapex instead of tablesaw
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2019, 06:21 PM »
TS 55 CMS will do what ya want. plus you can make your own modules for you bench top tools to mount in the CMS stand

Offline koenbro

  • Posts: 70
Re: Kapex instead of tablesaw
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2019, 09:53 PM »
Longer rail or connect the rails you have?

Yes I already rip full sheets length-wise by connecting two rails.

It depends on what you want to do.  A table saw is a pretty versatile piece of equipment.  While the track saw and miter saw can do some of what the table saw does, there are a few capacities you lose, however, maybe you don't need them or you have another tool in the arsenal?  Cutting dado's or grooves would be the first thing that comes to mind. 

I use an OF1400 router on the MFS to cut dados. Can you think of other common uses of a TS that cannot or cannot easily be replicated on a tracksaw/mitersaw/router combo? I am not doing large volume cabinetry where speed and repeatability are issues.

If dust collection is your primary complaint with the Bosch saw, take a look at the Sawstop Jobsite saw.  Sawstop pays more attention to dust collection than many others, so you might be pleasantly surprised.  It comes on a mobile stand, but you might still need a crosscut sled.

This remains a possibility, maybe attached to my workbench à la Ron Paulk with the bench serving as outfeed. But am exploring ditching the TS altogether. Not ruling out a portable TS like the (hopefully soon) forthcoming Festool or Sawstop.

If you have a table saw keep it. You will be disappointed without it and while a great tool the track saw can't do it all. It can do most, but it's not the best choice for everything.

Betting on the Kapex might not be your best choice. Take a look around at the failures listed on FOG. I have one, it failed and I am repairing it this time. Mine lasted a lot longer than many others, but there are some that have been repaired multiple times.

Does anyone know if Festool is coming out with a new Kapex to address the failures seen in the US? Maybe get a 220V from Europe? (My garage is wired for 220V for the welder, etc). I realize the warranty problems, but the more sturdy motor plus light use... am willing to gamble. 

I understand your issue, I have the even smaller bosch table saw, sure its small and light, but it's good aspects end there.  My plan is to get the CMS and then bring in an insert for a TS 75.  Gain router table, second bigger saw, a table saw and maintain dust collection.

CMS is intriguing, but I expect that it brings its own compromises, which, when added to the cost of the table, and the TS75 that I wouldn't otherwise get, make it a doubtful/poor value for me (might work for others).

I realize this will be a compromise and am just trying to define what I am trading off. So far, this has been extremely helpful, grateful thanks to all. I am open to any other thoughts.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 09:56 PM by koenbro »
MFT/3 • TS 55 REQ • Carvex PS420 EBQ + Accessories • OF1400 + LR32 + MFS400 • Domino DF500 • ETS EC150/5 EQplus • DTS 400 REQplus • CXS • CT 26E • Fuji Q4 + 3M PPS

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 597
Re: Kapex instead of tablesaw
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2019, 01:57 AM »

I understand your issue, I have the even smaller bosch table saw, sure its small and light, but it's good aspects end there.  My plan is to get the CMS and then bring in an insert for a TS 75.  Gain router table, second bigger saw, a table saw and maintain dust collection.

CMS is intriguing, but I expect that it brings its own compromises, which, when added to the cost of the table, and the TS75 that I wouldn't otherwise get, make it a doubtful/poor value for me (might work for others).


Just to be clear you can get an insert for a TS55 as well. 

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1293
Re: Kapex instead of tablesaw
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2019, 02:08 AM »

I use an OF1400 router on the MFS to cut dados. Can you think of other common uses of a TS that cannot or cannot easily be replicated on a tracksaw/mitersaw/router combo? I am not doing large volume cabinetry where speed and repeatability are

Resawing, accurate polygonal columns, kerfing/bending; rail & stile, and tenons are tasks that can be done much easier on a tablesaw, though you may not do any of them.

Offline koenbro

  • Posts: 70
Re: Kapex instead of tablesaw
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2019, 10:40 PM »

I use an OF1400 router on the MFS to cut dados. Can you think of other common uses of a TS that cannot or cannot easily be replicated on a tracksaw/mitersaw/router combo? I am not doing large volume cabinetry where speed and repeatability are

Resawing, accurate polygonal columns, kerfing/bending; rail & stile, and tenons are tasks that can be done much easier on a tablesaw, though you may not do any of them.

I don't currently do any of those, and don't see myself needing them in the near future, but that's a helpful list.
MFT/3 • TS 55 REQ • Carvex PS420 EBQ + Accessories • OF1400 + LR32 + MFS400 • Domino DF500 • ETS EC150/5 EQplus • DTS 400 REQplus • CXS • CT 26E • Fuji Q4 + 3M PPS

Offline Alanbach

  • Posts: 435
Re: Kapex instead of tablesaw
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2019, 11:22 PM »
For me the biggest thing a table saw brings above other tools being discussed here is repeatability. A decent TS with an excellent fence brings dead on repeatability to the party. Not to say that nothing else can but probably not as easily as with a TS.

Having said that I have the luxury of a 25 x 25 dedicated shop space and I have had a SCMS (Sliding Compound Miter Saw) (Makita) for as long as I can remember. It is a rare day that I crosscut on my table saw (I have a Sawstop PCS). If you buy a Kapex or any other good quality SCMS you too will rarely use your TS (or even your TS55) for crosscutting any longer. Having a dedicated crosscut machine (SCMS) with a high quality blade made specifically for cross cutting ready to go at all times is something that I can’t see you ever regretting.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 597
Re: Kapex instead of tablesaw
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2019, 12:22 AM »
For me the biggest thing a table saw brings above other tools being discussed here is repeatability. A decent TS with an excellent fence brings dead on repeatability to the party. Not to say that nothing else can but probably not as easily as with a TS.

Having said that I have the luxury of a 25 x 25 dedicated shop space and I have had a SCMS (Sliding Compound Miter Saw) (Makita) for as long as I can remember. It is a rare day that I crosscut on my table saw (I have a Sawstop PCS). If you buy a Kapex or any other good quality SCMS you too will rarely use your TS (or even your TS55) for crosscutting any longer. Having a dedicated crosscut machine (SCMS) with a high quality blade made specifically for cross cutting ready to go at all times is something that I can’t see you ever regretting.

I think this is where you get into if you have the room, find an old dewalt radial arm saw, set it up perfectly square and only ever use it for straight cross cuts.  If I had a permeant shop, that's what I'd be doing.  Then next to it on the same bench the compound miter.

Offline simonh

  • Posts: 69
Re: Kapex instead of tablesaw
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2019, 04:26 AM »
Nothing beats the table saw when you need to rip a piece of 8ft trim to 30mm x 10mm. I'm not sure how I'd do that with a Kapex and Track Saw. All depends on what projects you envisage. I use the Dewalt DW745 and find it more than capable for the stuff I do... I'd like a new Festool with Sawstop CMS style... but thats a couple of years away and no doubt a big chunk of cash...

Offline koenbro

  • Posts: 70
Re: Kapex instead of tablesaw
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2019, 03:09 PM »
I have more recently begun working with aluminum and cut the sheets (1/16 and 1/8") with the TS55 and a dedicated aluminum blade with negative rake. The Bosh TS is great for cross cutting tube and angle using a regular Diablo wood crosscutting blade.
MFT/3 • TS 55 REQ • Carvex PS420 EBQ + Accessories • OF1400 + LR32 + MFS400 • Domino DF500 • ETS EC150/5 EQplus • DTS 400 REQplus • CXS • CT 26E • Fuji Q4 + 3M PPS

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 1359
Re: Kapex instead of tablesaw
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2019, 06:14 AM »
"I think this is where you get into if you have the room, find an old dewalt radial arm saw, set it up perfectly square and only ever use it for straight cross cuts.  If I had a permeant shop, that's what I'd be doing.  Then next to it on the same bench the compound miter."

This is what I do with my RAS since I have room. But I use it for making half-laps and such. I have a 12" SCMS so I keep a dado set in the RAS and set it up for a snug fit on 23/32" ply so I can run a dado in a single pass. I have modified/improved the dust collection of the RAS so that most of the sawdust is sent to the cyclone. If I need something wider then it is easy to make as many repeat passes as needed. Anything narrower I use a router for.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 5895
  • Festool Baby.....
Re: Kapex instead of tablesaw
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2019, 11:33 AM »
I thought Id elaborate more. My previous response didnt tell the whole story.

I have a TS 75 mounted into my CMS. It does a good job. Not great but it does what I need. It also is very pricey. Like somene mentioned when you add up the cost of a TS 75, the module, the extension table and the CS50 fence, you can prolly get the saw stop jobsite saw.

Now for the million dollar question, can a tracksaw replace a table saw. For the most part Id say yes. But you will have to make some jigs and some accessories to make it work.
Dados, I use my 1010 and a guide rail very accurate. You will need to buy the edge guide for it.
Where a table saw shines IMO is ripping thin stock. Yes it can be done using a track saw w parallel guides, but it is a slower process.

I have a Kapex that I use for cross cuts up to the saws width limitations then I use the MFT and TS 55 for that.
Yes it is a pain to swap out CMS modules so I got the VL stand only. I own both the GE kit which I bought with the router module in the states, it has the sliding table and the outfeed table.
I have not used the sliding table with my router yet. But use it quite a bit with mt TS 75. It excels at at cutting drawer bottoms.

Oh BTW, I use my 850 planer with the accessory fence to edge joint my stock and to clean up the stock I cut on my TS 75. Yes I have a full size jointer 6" Jet. But The 850 to me is a lot quicker as I have to move the jet out, joint clean up the dust/chips and move it back as I dont have a DC with a 4" hose and my CT wont keep up.

I as I have said here many times what the CMS shines at is the ability to make your own modules. I have one for my 6" delta bench drinder, one for my 5" delts bench sander belt sander combo and also just made a module to use my 850 bench top jointer module.
One of the complaints about the 850 bench top jointer is that it doesnt have a on and off switch, once you put the trigger clip in it will run until you pull it out or unplug the machine.
With the CMS module I can plug the 850 in the CMS and use its switch to turn it on and off. same with the other modules I made.

Offline RussellS

  • Posts: 276
Re: Kapex instead of tablesaw
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2019, 02:44 PM »
Where a table saw shines IMO is ripping thin stock. Yes it can be done using a track saw w parallel guides, but it is a slower process.

This is where I just don't see a track saw or miter saw or anything else replacing a table saw.  Ripping.  Rails on a table.  Rails and stiles for kitchen cabinets.  These jobs need perfectly matched, sized pieces.  Almost any table saw with almost any fence can do this.  But its a lot harder and requires a lot more effort to maybe achieve this with a track saw.  Maybe.  And ripping to exact size is a very common task in woodworking.  Its not a task you do once a year.

I believe professional kitchen cabinet shops have a cabinet saw (PM66, Unisaw) setup with a power feeder and the fence set at exactly 2.25" width.  Used for cutting rails and stiles and face frames.  And someone stands at that saw hour after hour feeding stock into it to get exactly sized rails and stiles.  The same cabinet shop will have CNC machines and sliding table saws to cut everything else.  But for the task that the cabinet saw excels at, ripping long narrow strips, its the only tool to use.

Offline jobsworth

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  • Festool Baby.....
Re: Kapex instead of tablesaw
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2019, 09:05 PM »
@RussellS

When I wrote "thin strips I meant like 3/8, 1/2, 3/4 etc. F/Fs are a piece of cake with a track saw and a jig.

http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-jigs-tool-enhancements/how-i-rip-ff-and-door-pieces/
« Last Edit: March 04, 2019, 09:21 PM by jobsworth »