Author Topic: Basement Shop for scratch, layout feedback wanted  (Read 1319 times)

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Offline simnick

  • Posts: 69
Basement Shop for scratch, layout feedback wanted
« on: September 23, 2022, 04:35 AM »
Currently working out of a jammed 2 car garage in Seattle. Hoping to break ground soon on a new house, in the city, with a dedicate basement shop. For being in the city, it will be a huge 800sq ft space, but not nearly as big as I’d want out in an outbuilding in the country, so I have to make it all count. I’m an ambitious amateur who works in the shop to unwind and engage my problem solving on more immediate project rather than my usual 2+ year abstract architectural cloud software diagrams at work.

Here is the architect’s plans. Can’t make any major changes at this point in the design, already off to the city for permitting.
348791-0

At the top, we have a concrete plinth, to make the foundation $100k cheaper (dear god, digging a full basement is expensive). That adds an extra 88SF of space at 36". At the bottom, we have a spray room, with ventilation to the outside (most of the rest is underground), but the ceiling along the bottom edge is 7’ tall . On the right, there is a window well, that comes through from the floor above. And on the left is the doors to the house, and to the garage via double doors.

The floor will be concrete, with room for 1.5" of flooring for padded subfloor and laminate or some such. We were going to do a full false floor for ducting and electrical, but that will cost too much, so instead the contractor can put dust duct (6" PVC SDR35) and some electrical conduit at the time of pour, but it will be stuck in place forever. So I need a good general plan.

I already have:
SawStop PCS 52" with router table
Woodmaster 25" Planer
Hammer 12" Jointer-Planer
Laguna 18BX Band Saw
Bosch Sliding Miter Saw
Supermax 16-32 Thicknessing Sander
HVLP setup
CV1800 Dust Collector (to replace)
Wen Benchtop Drill Press (to replace)

I’m considering in the future:
Harvey G800 Dust Processor (for lower noise and shorter height)
Lathe
Laser
Oscilating edge sander
Floor Standing Drill Press
CNC

So, here is my proposed layout (rotated 90° from blueprint), with underground ducting proposed, after multiple iterations. Trying to use the doorways to allow long boards, keep the ducting simple, and some tool flexibility in the future.
The cabinet under the window I'm planning to make Systainer depth for storing my portable tools and all my stuff in systainers, so I can grab it right at the workbench.



Feedback welcome, as well as tips for what you wished you’d though about.

Offline afish

  • Posts: 1463
Re: Basement Shop for scratch, layout feedback wanted
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2022, 09:45 AM »
My biggest concern is with this being attached to the home Im assuming its sharing the same air as the house?  I would be concerned with dust getting spread through the HVAC and not sure if you have thought about some type of make up air for the spray room.  Not sure of all the particulars and what your climate is like but that would be my biggest concern with having a shop in a basement. It would be nice to locate the dust collector/air compressor outside in a small shed or lean to, to help keep dust and noise down and gain a little extra floor space. (it always looks bigger on paper) but then there is the issue of make up again since you will be exhausting a lot of conditioned air outside.  I have my dust collector, dust extractor, vacuum pump for the cnc, vacuum pump for work holding and air compressor set up this way in a shed next to my garage and wouldn't want it any other way but since its in the garage I dont have the conditioned air issues.  It's much quieter and helps with dust too since no filter catches everything. I have thought about adding AC to the garage but my dust collector would suck it out faster than the AC.   

Offline Tom Gensmer

  • Posts: 861
  • Residential Remodeler in Minnesota
Re: Basement Shop for scratch, layout feedback wanted
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2022, 11:08 AM »
Hi Simnik,

My first suggestion would be to ditch(!!) the separate room in the corner. If you think you're going to spray, there are a variety of temporary solutions available, and depending on what your future needs are you may dearly wish you had that space back.

Skip in-floor anything. Run electrical in conduit on your ceiling, this allows you to move it around as you add/swap machinery over the years.

3/4" or 1" Advantech makes for a great shop floor. Tack the corners, but leave the field to float, this makes for a comfortable working surface that'll handle any machine, with just a tiny amount of "give".

I have a 700 sf shop (25' x 28') with the following:
-- Felder KF700SP w/ 3.2m slider and outrigger
-- Profil 45 Z shaper with 2m slider and outrigger
-- Hammer A3-41 16" jointer/planer
-- Felder 28" bandsaw
-- HS950 oscillating edge sander
-- 16" widebelt sander
-- Hoffmann PU-2 dovetail machine
-- RL 160 dust collector
-- FAT 500 S hydraulic lift table
-- JOWI Nautilus material storage rack
-- 20" drill press
-- Numerous SYS-AZ drawers and mechanics-style tool chests for power tools and misc hand tools, tooling, etc...

It's cramped, but I can process 9'+ material with every machine save for the drill press and edge sander. There are no walls or dividers, on the rare occasion I need to spray I just tent off an area with zip poles and run a Dri-Eaz HEPA 500 air cleaner.

If you're looking at the Harvey, have a look at the Felder RL series collectors. A RL 125 or RL 140 might be a great match for your setup.

Consider Nordfab ducting, it will make it super easy to adjust your layout as you shift machines around. Run it on the ceiling so it's accessible and easy to move as needed.

The last thing I can think of saying is, I drew out my shop like you have many times, but each time I actually positioned the machines I'd realize some obstacle or conflict that wasn't apparent from a plan view. I'd strongly suggest ditching that corner room/closet, and leave the space as much of a blank slate as possible.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2022, 07:12 PM by Tom Gensmer »
CT-MIDI, C-18, RO-150, RO-90, OF-1010, OF-1400, MFK-700, MFK-700EQ/B, EHL-65, DTS-400, LS-130, MFT/3 (x4), MFT/Kapex (x3), KA 65 Conturo, endless Systainers

Offline Yardbird

  • Posts: 398
Re: Basement Shop for scratch, layout feedback wanted
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2022, 12:53 PM »
I see basement is 26' wide.  Do you have a horizontal support beam running under middle of 1st floor?  If so, then know location of the basement vertical supports.  I have a support in middle of my shop and fight it all the time.  I built my own house, and just overlooked that little detail.

Why is digging the basement so expensive?  Are you digging in granite?  A basement should be cheaper per square foot than above ground building since it shares the same footer and roof as already required by the rest of the house.  I agree to try to keep wiring in basement ceiling, even if you need to make your basement deeper.  A basement with higher ceilings makes a lot of difference.   

Offline twistsol1

  • Posts: 42
    • Sawdustzone
Re: Basement Shop for scratch, layout feedback wanted
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2022, 01:14 PM »
The layout is very similar to the basement shop I built a couple of years ago and have been quite happy with.

I would think about rotating the table saw 90 degrees and centered to maximize the infeed and outfeed length you can cut. To control dust, I added a mini split system so heat and A/C are separated from the air handling for the rest of the house. I also added rock wool insulation and resilient channels to the ceiling for sound insulation from the rest of the house.
A shop full of tools and no talent

Offline simnick

  • Posts: 69
Re: Basement Shop for scratch, layout feedback wanted
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2022, 04:58 PM »
My biggest concern is with this being attached to the home Im assuming its sharing the same air as the house?  I would be concerned with dust getting spread through the HVAC and not sure if you have thought about some type of make up air for the spray room.  Not sure of all the particulars and what your climate is like but that would be my biggest concern with having a shop in a basement. It would be nice to locate the dust collector/air compressor outside in a small shed or lean to, to help keep dust and noise down and gain a little extra floor space. (it always looks bigger on paper) but then there is the issue of make up again since you will be exhausting a lot of conditioned air outside.  I have my dust collector, dust extractor, vacuum pump for the cnc, vacuum pump for work holding and air compressor set up this way in a shed next to my garage and wouldn't want it any other way but since its in the garage I dont have the conditioned air issues.  It's much quieter and helps with dust too since no filter catches everything. I have thought about adding AC to the garage but my dust collector would suck it out faster than the AC.

The rest of the house is a fully sealed passive house. The door from the shop to the house will be a highly sealed external door. HVAC will be an independent mini-split head unit. We are going to do separate intake and exhaust for the shop so that sawdust and spray vapors stay confined.

Due to close (10ft) neighbors, I can't put dust outside or suffer noise complaints (happened with my current garage shop). That's why I'm thinking Gyro Air, for lower noise inside.

Offline simnick

  • Posts: 69
Re: Basement Shop for scratch, layout feedback wanted
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2022, 07:00 PM »
Hi afish,

My first suggestion would be to ditch(!!) the separate room in the corner. If you think you're going to spray, there are a variety of temporary solutions available, and depending on what your future needs are you may dearly wish you had that space back.

Skip in-floor anything. Run electrical in conduit on your ceiling, this allows you to move it around as you add/swap machinery over the years.

3/4" or 1" Advantech makes for a great shop floor. Tack the corners, but leave the field to float, this makes for a comfortable working surface that'll handle any machine, with just a tiny amount of "give".

I have a 700 sf shop (25' x 28') with the following:
-- Felder KF700SP w/ 3.2m slider and outrigger
-- Profil 45 Z shaper with 2m slider and outrigger
-- Hammer A3-41 16" jointer/planer
-- Felder 28" bandsaw
-- HS950 oscillating edge sander
-- 16" widebelt sander
-- Hoffmann PU-2 dovetail machine
-- RL 160 dust collector
-- FAT 500 S hydraulic lift table
-- JOWI Nautilus material storage rack
-- 20" drill press
-- Numerous SYS-AZ drawers and mechanics-style tool chests for power tools and misc hand tools, tooling, etc...

It's cramped, but I can process 9'+ material with every machine save for the drill press and edge sander. There are no walls or dividers, on the rare occasion I need to spray I just tent off an area with zip poles and run a Dri-Eaz HEPA 500 air cleaner.

If you're looking at the Harvey, have a look at the Felder RL series collectors. A RL 125 or RL 140 might be a great match for your setup.

Consider Nordfab ducting, it will make it super easy to adjust your layout as you shift machines around. Run it on the ceiling so it's accessible and easy to move as needed.

The last thing I can think of saying is, I drew out my shop like you have many times, but each time I actually positioned the machines I'd realize some obstacle or conflict that wasn't apparent from a plan view. I'd strongly suggest ditching that corner room/closet, and leave the space as much of a blank slate as possible.

Most of the walls for the spray room are non-structural, so it could be removed if needed. But it has at least a post that is required. Right now I get annoyed that dust from woodwork can ruin spray, so I have to do A or B. The room is for dust control, more than anything, so I can keep wood working while spray is drying.

I currently have ceiling mounted dust control, and at least the drop for the table saw is really annoying, as it impacts one side capacity or gives something to trip over. The cost for the in floor duct is not very high, so if I stop using one of the ports, no big deal. I'd expect to still do power drops from the ceiling, and 6" duct on some walls.

I'll take a look at the Felder dust collector.

Offline simnick

  • Posts: 69
Re: Basement Shop for scratch, layout feedback wanted
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2022, 07:14 PM »
I see basement is 26' wide.  Do you have a horizontal support beam running under middle of 1st floor?  If so, then know location of the basement vertical supports.  I have a support in middle of my shop and fight it all the time.  I built my own house, and just overlooked that little detail.

Why is digging the basement so expensive?  Are you digging in granite?  A basement should be cheaper per square foot than above ground building since it shares the same footer and roof as already required by the rest of the house.  I agree to try to keep wiring in basement ceiling, even if you need to make your basement deeper.  A basement with higher ceilings makes a lot of difference.

There is one post in the corner of the spray room wall. There is one steel beam across the main space, so I don't have a post in the middle. So I think I have that covered, but one reason why it is hard to drop the spray room.

At least here in Seattle (but my understanding is the is true in most places), digging a full basement is far more expensive than putting up a stick frame on a pad. Basements cost less per square foot because of the finishes, which is where most of the cost is. But digging, paying to get rid of dirt, shoring up walls when there are neighbors nearby, and pouring concrete is far more expensive than some 2x4s. Does anyone build a shop underground in the country to save money? No, they build an outbuilding on a concrete pad. Going one foot deeper cost me about $100k or more. And granite would almost be cheaper, it is self supporting, with no need for shoring work. Instead I have loose soil that will collapse.