Author Topic: 12 foot brewery tables  (Read 1554 times)

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Offline Acarper76

  • Posts: 5
12 foot brewery tables
« on: November 19, 2019, 05:48 PM »
I am building 13-12 foot long brewery tables. Each will be pine, 1.5” tabletop thickness and 30” wide. They will have metal legs. I am purchasing a Domino and my question is would you use dominoes on the table to add strength? And if so what size dominoes would you use and how many per edge glue up? Thank you! I’m excited to get my new tool!

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Offline Lincoln

  • Posts: 41
Re: 12 foot brewery tables
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2019, 09:36 PM »
They won't add any strength to the edge join, but will help with alignment during glue up. Every 300mm should be fine, for alignment.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1910
Re: 12 foot brewery tables
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2019, 12:21 AM »
I would use smaller dominos, 5 - 6 mm. How often depends on the straightness of the boards. Between already suggested 300 mm to no dominos at all.

Offline Rob Z

  • Posts: 851
Re: 12 foot brewery tables
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2019, 02:39 AM »
Hello

Thirteen tables....That's a lot of gluing and clamping!

I agree with the previous two comments about spacing, and would add (if you are new to the Domino) to use a wider setting so you don't have to fight it so much to get the boards together.  The narrow setting requires exact layout and if you are off even a tiny amount you won't be able to get the boards to come together.

Offline kcufstoidi

  • Posts: 849
Re: 12 foot brewery tables
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2019, 07:13 AM »
Additional note would be to check for proper moisture content, softwoods like pine are typically not kiln dried to the consistency and level as hardwoods. His creates many problems that dominos and gluing cannot correct especially at 13' long. Checking, cracking, twisting and spliting come to mind.

Offline Jim Kirkpatrick

  • Posts: 1121
    • Jim Kirkpatrick Woodworking
Re: 12 foot brewery tables
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2019, 12:16 PM »
I never use Dominos for table top glue up.  They can cause more problems than they eliminate.  Such as misalignment and then you're forced to correct the misalignment after it's dry with a hand plane or sander.  Another issue is if it's too close to the end of the boards, you can expose one when you trim off to final length. 

And as far as which is stronger, I once worked at a small handmade furniture company in the 90's.  One time we decided to do a comparison stress test between a panel that was glued up using biscuits and one glued up with none at all.  The one with no biscuits lasted much longer than the one with biscuits.  I suspect the same holds true for Dominos.

The key to a headache free glueup is proper stock preparation using a power jointer and/or hand plane.  Both edges should be square and smooth.  For glueup, start clamping at one end with just one clamp----make it tight but not fully tight.  You'll get a feel for how tight.
 ....then use a dead blow hammer to pound into alignment under the clamp and tighten fully.  Once satisfied with alignment move down 8", clamp and repeat until the entire panel is flush and complete.  There will be minimal sanding required.

PS, Welcome to the FOG!!

Offline serge0n

  • Posts: 92
Re: 12 foot brewery tables
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2019, 01:11 PM »
For glueup, start clamping at one end with just one clamp----make it tight but not fully tight.  You'll get a feel for how tight.
 ....then use a dead blow hammer to pound into alignment under the clamp and tighten fully.  Once satisfied with alignment move down 8", clamp and repeat until the entire panel is flush and complete.  There will be minimal sanding required.

That's an interesting technique, I'll definitely try it next time I have a panel to glue up.
Dominoes or biscuits help prevent boards from slipping out of alignment as glue makes them real slippery. How much glue do you apply and do you apply it to both edges? Do you use parallel clamps or pipe clamps?


Offline egmiii

  • Posts: 157
Re: 12 foot brewery tables
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2019, 03:08 PM »
Do you have access to a large shaper? A zigzag or deep groove glue joint cutter would save a lot of time and produce excellent results. If this is a one time project, for $99 a month, you could rent from CutterShare.

https://www.cuttershare.com/cutters/deep-groove-glue-joint-cutter/

Offline RobS888

  • Posts: 6
Re: 12 foot brewery tables
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2019, 03:34 PM »
They won't add any strength to the edge join, but will help with alignment during glue up. Every 300mm should be fine, for alignment.

I have a 14 foot trim board that is made of 2 7 foot boards connected with 2 8mm dominos, moving it back to the basement to stain, I broke the butt joint glue. The dominos are holding it together quite well. We are talking about long grain joints here, but if the dominos hold the joint together when it would separate isn't that stronger? I've put over 200lbs on a short butt joint with 2 8mm dominos and it held. It wouldn't hold with just glue.

I don't recall ever seeing tests on long grain joints, just end grain joints.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1910
Re: 12 foot brewery tables
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2019, 04:04 PM »
....then use a dead blow hammer to pound into alignment under the clamp and tighten fully.  Once satisfied with alignment move down 8", clamp and repeat until the entire panel is flush and complete.  There will be minimal sanding required.
I do that too, but then you are limited to gluing only 2 boards at a time.

Offline jeffinsgf

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  • Posts: 155
Re: 12 foot brewery tables
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2019, 04:32 PM »
I've done a lot of glue-ups over the years, and until recently had never used anything for alignment (other than the aforementioned deadblow mallet). I just did an 8-foot-long 3-foot-wide countertop and used Dominos. The stock was 1-1/2" thick and I used 5mm Dominoes. It went smoother than any glue-up I've ever done. The tops of the boards aligned nearly perfectly over the entire length. This was six boards, each averaging 6" wide.

It is true that any hole you put in an edge-to-edge joint diminishes the strength of the joint, no matter what you put in the hole. But, the insignificant loss of strength more than justifies the alignment aid --- in my opinion. That's also why I used 5mm Dominoes...using anything larger doesn't gain anything and does weaken the joint -- theoretically.

Just remember as you're putting the tables together, properly machined edge joints joined with Elmer's school glue will be stronger than the wood itself. You can pour all the "gap filling" glue you want in a poorly machined joint and it may hold together, but it won't be stronger than the wood.

Offline Jim Kirkpatrick

  • Posts: 1121
    • Jim Kirkpatrick Woodworking
Re: 12 foot brewery tables
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2019, 07:38 PM »
That's an interesting technique, I'll definitely try it next time I have a panel to glue up.
Dominoes or biscuits help prevent boards from slipping out of alignment as glue makes them real slippery. How much glue do you apply and do you apply it to both edges? Do you use parallel clamps or pipe clamps?
Depending on how wide and how many clamps I need, I use both parallel and pipe clamps.  They do get slippery but back to my point RE: stock preparation, the cleaner you've jointed the edges, the less glue you will need.  I know I've used the right amount of glue when just a thin bead oozes out of the joint and not candle stick drips. 

I seldom do this, but using a smoothing plane, you can plane a "spring joint".  That is, creating a hollow in the middle of the joint so only the ends are contacting. Then when you clamp together the tiny gap in the middle disappears.  After you have the edges planed smooth start to finish, start planing 6-12" from the edge of the board and as you are planing through, lift the plane off the work piece the same distance from the other end.  You only need 2 or 3 passes taking a very thin shaving.  I saw David Charlesworth doing this years ago but for the life of me can not find it on the web.  I think I saw it on one of his DVDs.  There are many other Youtubers posting this technique just search for "spring joint"

I do that too, but then you are limited to gluing only 2 boards at a time.
No matter how many boards I need, I always glue the whole panel up together, the trick is (again) stock preparation.  Also, getting a feel for just how tight to initially tighten the clamps for pounding with a dead blow hammer is key.  Too loose and the boards will move back out of alignment, and too tight, you can beat the boards until you're blue in the face to no avail.  Having a nice large mallet is helpful too. 

There's no right or wrong way to glue up panels, this is my way of doing it and it works for me.  It eliminates a big step in cutting domino mortises and fitting them in.  The OP mentioned he is gluing up 12 table tops, my way is a huge timesaver and the results are just as strong if not stronger.


« Last Edit: December 10, 2019, 10:27 AM by Jim Kirkpatrick »

Offline Acarper76

  • Posts: 5
Re: 12 foot brewery tables
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2019, 10:26 PM »
Being new to table building and with that size doing just a glue up makes me
Nervous.

Offline Sourwould

  • Posts: 73
Re: 12 foot brewery tables
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2019, 11:06 AM »
I'm assuming you're using SYP framing lumber for this?

Honestly I wouldn't even do a glue up. Fasten to bearers and give an 8 Penny gap or ship lap and let them move. Course grained syp moves a lot. Sounds like a pretty utilitarian table and probably will take a lot of abuse at a brewery.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4324
Re: 12 foot brewery tables
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2019, 11:48 AM »
Ditto Sourwood.

Kreg heavy duty pocket hole screws (the bigger ones for 2x4stock) would’ve great for this.

Softwood will move a lot through the seasons. If all the boards are joined together you need to allow for that extra movement when the slab is attached to the supports or apron. Spacing the boards as Sourwood suggests eliminates that problem.

Offline Jim Kirkpatrick

  • Posts: 1121
    • Jim Kirkpatrick Woodworking
Re: 12 foot brewery tables
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2019, 12:53 PM »
I'm assuming you're using SYP framing lumber for this?

Honestly I wouldn't even do a glue up. Fasten to bearers and give an 8 Penny gap or ship lap and let them move. Course grained syp moves a lot. Sounds like a pretty utilitarian table and probably will take a lot of abuse at a brewery.

I like this!  Keep it simple

Offline Sourwould

  • Posts: 73
Re: 12 foot brewery tables
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2019, 05:16 PM »
I've never seen the heavy duty kreg screws. I was thinking you could just timberlock them from the underside.

The only real problem I see is twist. Acarper, where are you located? If you're east coast, you should be able to get "framer's series" syp at your local yard. It's a select grade and comes very dry and tends to stay straight. I used to use it a lot for framing 24" oc
 I think it's available up to 2x12.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2019, 05:23 PM by Sourwould »

Offline Acarper76

  • Posts: 5
Re: 12 foot brewery tables
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2019, 05:54 PM »
Sourwood can you explain what you mean a bit more? So you’re saying to use pocket holes to a frame of sorts? They want a clean, modern look and these are the legs they have chosen that I’ve attached. Yes, using yellow pine.  Also, with a gap in the table top wouldn’t we be worried about crumbs and things getting caught in them?

Offline Sourwould

  • Posts: 73
Re: 12 foot brewery tables
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2019, 06:29 PM »
Sourwood can you explain what you mean a bit more? So you’re saying to use pocket holes to a frame of sorts? They want a clean, modern look and these are the legs they have chosen that I’ve attached. Yes, using yellow pine.  Also, with a gap in the table top wouldn’t we be worried about crumbs and things getting caught in them?

There's something wrong with the attachment.

I would not use pocket screws/holes. If it was me, I'd probably use timberloks/simpson screws/structural screws through a wood or steel bearer that would be underneath the table (I'm not sure if your legs have a cross piece at the top. If I had real fear of the boards moving/splitting, I'd just oval the hole across the grain at the head of the screw. The screw will move with the wood side to side, but still hold tight. How wide of boards are you using?

Narrow gaps between boards or ship laps with small reveals are both pretty modern, in my opinion. I feel like you see it a lot in old danish modern furniture and modern style siding. I feel like the edge treatment is really what makes something simple look modern.

I've been to plenty of restaurants with big communal tables (picnic looking tables), never noticed any crumbs or anything.

This is from a carpentry perspective. I'm not a fine wood worker (pinky out!). But have had to do this sort of thing before.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2019, 06:36 PM by Sourwould »

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1910
Re: 12 foot brewery tables
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2019, 06:37 PM »
No ship laps on table top, no way. It will fill with gunk and will be a chore to clean.

Offline jobsworth

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  • Festool Baby.....
Re: 12 foot brewery tables
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2019, 11:49 AM »
I recenty built a table top out of 2" pine for a patio table.

 The table top is 38"X 48". Used the domino 700 and have no problems. The amino helps with the alignment and had very little sanding with I used te Rotex 150 and ETC 150.

Offline Acarper76

  • Posts: 5
Re: 12 foot brewery tables
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2019, 11:54 AM »
The tops will be 3- 2x12x12s. The legs are square shaped sort of - narrower at the top and wider and the base so there will be a metal piece across the underside of the table at three points at each leg.

Offline Acarper76

  • Posts: 5
Re: 12 foot brewery tables
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2019, 05:33 PM »
Trying to rip the rounded edges off my 2x12x12s with my table saw - not easy. Would highly suggest the track saw? Or have a trick that will help me?