Cheese, did u ever go with the Shaper Origin?  Thoughts?  I always appreciate your insightful contributions on this forum through the years.  Thx for being such a great contributor.   A few questions, u or anyone....

I have considered a Shaper too, but from my research it uses the small 1010 motor from Festool... why not use a much quieter and more powerful air cooled CNC motor which offers better collet sizes?  It's a relatively higher end product and has great value, even offering an option for such would think would expand their user base.  any thoughts? 

I would think offering a CNC air cooled spindle would offer additional accuracy with the collets as well, which is significant if you use the Shaper for detailed joinery work such as dovetails.  Shaper has never really expressed how accurate their system is..at least that I have seen.  For most applications, extreme accuracy not that critical, but for very fine detailed joinery or inlays, accuracy matters.

I have the WP router lift with the Milwaukee 3.25hp... my only issue with the WP lift is the Lift mechanism to change bits, a bit cumbersome with the push rod and spring system as it gets very sticky through the years.  Glad to see others have come up with a cleaner system for moving the spindle up n down.   I would like to replace my Milw with a quiet air cooled or water cooled spindle, I have 240v avail.  Does anyone have a recommendation that would fit in my WP lift?   

BTW, does anyone make a router table system with the air / water cooled spindle w lift?  This would surely elevate router tables for the lite commercial user. 

For handheld routers, is there any CNC air cooled spindles that fit in existing bases, such as Milw, Bosch, DW, Festool, etc?   This again is primarily for sound reduction and better collet size options.  thx in advance.

agreed with your comments. crzyguy...

I addressed this in my post...

>  For handheld routers, is there any CNC air cooled spindles that fit in existing bases, such as Milw, Bosch, DW, Festool, etc?   This again is primarily for sound reduction and better collet size options.  thx in advance.

For the Shaper, it would be mostly for noise reduction.  But at times when u are hogging out a lot of area with the Shaper, a more powerful motor could be helpful. 

BTW, it seems we are moving into a new phase with routers as small scale CNC has become commonplace.  Some of these CNC adapt existing routers, others move to spindles, so I am guessing its just a question of time till some of those air cooled quiet spindle motors with more collet options make their way to handheld routers...
Of course, not knocking the existing routers, which I have just about every makers version .  But when I experience the quietness of CNC smaller spindles, I make the connection    I realize noise is not an issue with everyone.
maybe this is many years away

@ Mini Me, you talked about this before but we still haven’t seen any photos. What is a “lead screw lift”? How does it differ from the many commercial lifts?

Cheese, did u ever go with the Shaper Origin?  Thoughts?  I always appreciate your insightful contributions on this forum through the years.  Thx for being such a great contributor.   A few questions, u or anyone....

I have considered a Shaper too, but from my research it uses the small 1010 motor from Festool... why not use a much quieter and more powerful air cooled CNC motor which offers better collet sizes?  It's a relatively higher end product and has great value, even offering an option for such would think would expand their user base.  any thoughts? 

I would think offering a CNC air cooled spindle would offer additional accuracy with the collets as well, which is significant if you use the Shaper for detailed joinery work such as dovetails.  Shaper has never really expressed how accurate their system is..at least that I have seen.  For most applications, extreme accuracy not that critical, but for very fine detailed joinery or inlays, accuracy matters.

I have the WP router lift with the Milwaukee 3.25hp... my only issue with the WP lift is the Lift mechanism to change bits, a bit cumbersome with the push rod and spring system as it gets very sticky through the years.  Glad to see others have come up with a cleaner system for moving the spindle up n down.   I would like to replace my Milw with a quiet air cooled or water cooled spindle, I have 240v avail.  Does anyone have a recommendation that would fit in my WP lift?   

BTW, does anyone make a router table system with the air / water cooled spindle w lift?  This would surely elevate router tables for the lite commercial user. 

For handheld routers, is there any CNC air cooled spindles that fit in existing bases, such as Milw, Bosch, DW, Festool, etc?   This again is primarily for sound reduction and better collet size options.  thx in advance.

Ya I pulled the pin on a Shaper, have not yet gotten serious with it. Not in the least bit sorry about the purchase, just trying to work it into the schedule of the other things to do list.

The 1010 motor is tough as nails, I'd not worry about that item. Festool recommends that the 1010 can be used with the 50 mm rebating bit. Power its not an issue with the 1010.




I agree with the CRG analysis that these smaller routers are perfect for hand held CNC routing. A 1/2" router bit just becomes a site-line problem when looking down the tool path.

And then there's the weight thing added to the equation. I think Shaper & Festool nailed it when they suggested the 1010 router spindle format.

As far as collet size goes, for routing the outline of objects, which is really what the Shaper excels at, I think there is a sweet spot when it comes to collet size. 1/2" bits are way too large, you're removing a lot of extra material that doesn't need to be removed for the application. I liken it to the use of hole saws versus forstner bits.

The other consideration is router bit availability. If you can't purchase the tooling you want, collet size really doesn't matter. With Shaper/Festool now offering collet sizes of 3mm, 6mm, 8mm, 1/8" & 1/4" that's a pretty complete product line. It's only been within the last couple of years that 3mm and 1/8" tooling has been available.

Personally, I think the 8mm & 3mm router bit sizes are golden for using with the Shaper. The 8mm shaft provides a nice combination of strength & stiffness to provide aggressive cutting with minimal router bit breakage.

@ Mini Me, you talked about this before but we still haven’t seen any photos. What is a “lead screw lift”? How does it differ from the many commercial lifts?

Michael, this is all very new and we are building (hopefully) about version 5 of this table because every time we get into it we see better ways of doing stuff or build something that is in reality a dead end for lots of reasons.

This link shows a manual version of a lead screw lift https://www.woodworkforums.com/f20/router-table-using-linear-rails-lift-227354 and it has been in use in a woodworking school for some years so it gets a hammering.

The digital control version started with an extremely well built conventional table follow the thread right through and about 3/4 of the way it changes to a digital conversion. https://www.woodworkforums.com/f20/router-table-build-212190


This link is the continuation of the build https://www.woodworkforums.com/f20/automated-router-table-226646

This link is a search of the Aussie forum router forum https://www.woodworkforums.com/search.php?searchid=56507005 that I am using to post the above links from. There is a fair bit of discussion regarding spindles etc in it.

There are some very short YT videos of the first build, this is one of them

This is the table we are using https://www.makerstore.com.au/modular-table-sale/

Lead screw AKA ball screw https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/303570642880?hash=item46ae3867c0:g:2nQAAOSwd~Fewd-O&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA4HjpchgJmZlkYzcZS3XpOlQy9iGunXR4bs26LOxB1EiC0%2B7NFX7KzOc5p%2FLC5Rl9EKibP6bpNMekne7O9P5JYVevme62kU4Ff1Zd4TZvrCJ3HwSiqp0PnPXHM6dWapaDeg06%2Fdd%2BuSbfO8gk0UjDJs6tDRAisd2bQu6crY0qm0rJiakwpt3tRculNr3mnGArOtzzrL0rQblIQLlnAo8GG1n4mTCNytTESibhPJAWtbGKcXjUrRt4lkzINpUPnM%2F1qV2q%2B1K3xw8Hmv0sUBQLEVcQ0Lsrj8ti0JUwiy7QnTGx%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR8i25pyBYQ

WEe started with this style of bearing rail https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/393264910237?hash=item5b906a4f9d:g:XrAAAOSwCp5i4NzZ&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA4EHY9E58RkC2i8QFhWu%2Fw86R7RzDj73SqzRKz5c0tdLvavU2xdAR8wxEBiCtDXO3iES9ADimRDY3mNpYOpfELZ6mqudOTx0kkfOFBHgiwxaaRZzFiCj23hDTrkZYIxZw0SgEr8rKX0mpYR0NCRM600qQ1AYpSOUbzdwd4I8fQkSRioJdYW6FjooPNyDaU35xWhOlk8Ek%2B6eI3ltN7BoNRE9e86TchUfX57LwIMiNCVkJg%2FsUfgf%2BaZiBc69%2BD2nO92p%2FrZYExyHsqveicSqhPxRfuU%2B0zC4fWEC3zJdGgn1t%7Ctkp%3ABFBM8rPwnIFh

And now we are using this style which is far superior https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/354227100852?hash=item5279949cb4:g:DI4AAOSwj29i-wk4&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA4H1dAsCR%2BvxpfqTexT1ZzeOJ%2FalwQge5X0Cj%2BTreYJN3n%2B0wm6jz%2BAANeIedRBEQizAtIwoGhlJ28XrGdY4R%2Fc24MHOwae8Ch9Z6U7On6bcFtOD9b78rLmpLwxuHcAjAJXdX%2FtecVYFv3AFy%2Bsyj5RSGKg5i9SogQbzweIggyhKsfgUIJaAsqASJdX1ksGOnxuGsdFnXt2JXXfl3QyIYJzZUAgWGJ44f%2BwwWpUAuRnAlI9JKLEbZLUeFMWpHg5Z5d1xO4fh%2Be3BS2Mf93FveDc3IzbvybilpvKR%2Bz1xYbEOA%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR_Sz8JyBYQ



What we are doing as I write is building another table this time using 20xx series extrusion as we found every other version we built was simply a lash up of stuff and nowhere accurate enough. I built the first one out of MDF then hit it all with a big hammer and started all over not with the table itself but with the side drives for the fence and the centre lift and I guess we have built about four versions of the drives all up. When we thought we had sorted that out we built what was to be the final table out of 20mm RHS all jigged and welded but when the centre spindle was installed it was not spot on perpendicular to the top in either axis and it was obvious the frame was not quite square despite all our efforts. Taking a deep breath and wishing we had thought of it earlier we are now using extrusion for the table and that is the single best thing we have done. Mind you over a few years things have changed and extrusion never even got a thought.

Moving on to the electronics, because we have used a spindle, VFD & metal frame the original electronics needed a lot of trouble shooting and luckily my son has done a ton of low voltage DC trouble shooting in cars and over many hours we have made it all work. I will upload some photos, some of the journey and some of the present table and you will see how things changed over several years but have a look at the links in this post and I will post more in a short while.

Where we are now at is having debugged the whole build others could now go and build one though I would like to see that done locally first. Mike the chap who built the first version using the router has published all the electronics information and the documentation is now out there free of charge.

The Shaper Origin uses the MFK 700 motor. Both draw 720 watts. The OF 1100 draws 1010 watts.

Thanks for that Michael, good to refresh my brain.   

Thx for the updated info on why the Festool router is an ideal fit for the SO, very valid points.  The SO is not like a CNC which can complete "any" big job on its own...with the SO if you wanted to hog out a big area, I would think its best to simply cut the perimeter with the SO, then grab a heavy duty router and hog out the area with the perimeter already established...  as with most things in ww, common sense still applies.

Mini, great innovative work!  I would love an established maker to offer a system as you have presented here.  A router table on steroids, with potential massive power, incredible precision with ease of use, and an incredible array of bits (vs. a Shaper, not SO).  Sure hope the marriage of these CNC parts to router tables soon is a common product offering.   It does deserve its own thread so others can find it.  Great job!

A bit more of the router table saga. I am experimenting with uploading pictures because it seems a slightly different procedure to what I am used to doing in other fora.

I can see this being difficult, is there any way to see the photos in a message before I upload? I really need to add text and I have a lot of photos. Looking at the quote in this post shows brackets for images so that annotating them is difficult at least it is for me. Is there any way of annotating each individual pic? I uploaded two pics and tried to annotate each one and the pics appeared at the bottom of the posted text instead of tied to each one.

Unemployed Redneck Hillbilly Creations has a build series on router table build. 

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvJb16h8tfJNqiihPYysz8XPOoIfC0f1_

Thx for the updated info on why the Festool router is an ideal fit for the SO, very valid points.  The SO is not like a CNC which can complete "any" big job on its own...with the SO if you wanted to hog out a big area, I would think its best to simply cut the perimeter with the SO, then grab a heavy duty router and hog out the area with the perimeter already established...  as with most things in ww, common sense still applies.

8mm shank 16mm spiral flute plunge bit they sell is pretty much the standard for epic hogging anything the size of shaper's base plate.  It's probably also on the limit of controllability since anyone having the fun of accidentally doing a climb cut during pocket operations can attest to the force that thing imparts.

How's this for timing?
I mentioned a CNC controlled lift and fence system should hit the market, and Next Wave was the logical company to do it... got this email today showing exactly that, a CNC based router table..... impressive, and priced IMO, reasonable considering u have support, parts, etc.

https://www.nextwavecnc.com/shop/SHARK-RS1000-PRO-p470663432

MiniMe....Your goal of making a digital fence / lift system of equal or lower cost than conventional RT fence / lift is impressive.  When you look at the cost of the top end fence systems and lifts, this Next Wave digital fence / lift is not ridiculously priced right out of the gate.  Remember, they go on sale, prices always come out high on initial launch, competitors will surface driving the price lower, etc.  It's obviously not a CNC, but since the company sells CNC machines, I can see why they market it this way.  Its basically a digital fence and depth positioner.  The fence is duplicated with the incra system, and the depth can be achieved with a good lift, which can be controlled to .001" increments.   

IMO, the benefit of digital here is to reduce human error when your cuts require constant movement of the fence and depth of cut such as irregular spaced dovetails, box joints, etc.

For a bit more cost, (considering the added cost of the complete RT system, top, base, dust box, etc.) it seems the SO can do all these tasks plus a lot more.  However, both require the user to do the the physical work, vs. a CNC.  Regardless, its nice to see technology becoming part of small scale ww products. 

It would have been more appealing if this next wave digital router table had a water cooled spindle...

When I think about a digital positioner for the TS, its surely appealing.  However, it can  not have the Incra type design with the long shaft, the length of the travel.  The footprint is often too big for small shops.  The solution would be a rail travel system which seems very feasible with cnc parts.  But unless you are cutting multiple dados or something similar, the applications are more limited vs. RT which cuts end joinery.  There is several DRO fence, which certainly helps, assuming they are accurate.  I have no experience with them, as I use the Incra system. 

I thought I had better start showing the new table using 20** series extrusion, it was a kit which we cut down from the original dimensions of 1 metre x 1 metre. I am going to have to step through multiple posts with a few pics each time but such is life. I might try and post using designs we have abandoned compared to where we are now. The first shot shows the new table with the old one in the background. The subsequent shots show different views of the old one, actually the old one shown is the third and I never took pics of the first

The dust chute in both versions, it draws the air through the table top and in the first version worked perfectly with no debris on the top at all. The insert will have no back to it from the spindle axis line, why commercial tables and insert plates have completely circular insert rings is one of life's mysteries as all they do is make proper dust and debris collection a bit of a nonsense IMHO and through fence collection never works as people hope it will. I am currently thinking an adjustable air entry into the end of the chute might be a good idea but we haven't fired up the latest version to see what happens.