Author Topic: Tiny dust collector  (Read 8011 times)

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Offline DynaGlide

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #60 on: May 21, 2022, 11:39 AM »
@Joelm the space the wall mount units take up when you add the cyclone is substantial. I don't understand how anyone can say they save space when you add a canister the thing runs floor to ceiling on a 1.5HP unit.

Can you post a picture of the Supercell mounted in that same area for comparison?
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Offline Peter Kelly

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #61 on: May 21, 2022, 11:59 AM »
I put this together for under $1,000 and aside from replacing the bearings in the HF blower motor it's worked out pretty well. Doesn't take up a huge amount of floor space either. Blower was upgraded with the 12 in Rikon impeller.


Offline Joelm

  • Posts: 158
Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #62 on: May 21, 2022, 12:03 PM »
@Joelm the space the wall mount units take up when you add the cyclone is substantial. I don't understand how anyone can say they save space when you add a canister the thing runs floor to ceiling on a 1.5HP unit.

Can you post a picture of the Supercell mounted in that same area for comparison?

I wanted to move the dust collector next to the garage door. The Rockler wouldn't fit but the SuperCell is nice and compact.
344690-0

I have a 4" run of hard pipe along the wall, then goes up over the ceiling and back down the other side to my router table and Kapex.
344692-1

Offline ChuckS

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #63 on: May 21, 2022, 12:14 PM »
How high are the ceilings in that shop? Looks to be all of 20 feet. There's a lot of work expended in sucking all those chips and sawdust up 16 feet before you even start moving it horizontally toward the DC.

Your chart has a 4" duct and 400 CFM for a TS up to 16" with I'm guessing a 1/8" thick blade but a 5" duct and 600 CFM for a BS with a blade normally about a third the thickness of a TS blade. Seems backward to me.

Bob,

The chart comes from here; link given to me when I toured an industrial plant, and asked about its dust collection system:

https://astcanada.ca/industries-applications/woodworking/

The shop ceiling in the earlier photo is indeed very high, but its dust collection system was designed and built based on our provincial safety standards. According to the shop manager, the sound-proof room that houses the system didn't cost little in order to meet the audio requirements.

Offline ChuckS

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #64 on: May 21, 2022, 12:18 PM »
Snip.

I wanted to move the dust collector next to the garage door. The Rockler wouldn't fit but the SuperCell is nice and compact.
Snip.

Joel,

You sure you didn't copy and paste your tool wall photos from a woodworking store showroom?! [tongue]


Offline ChuckS

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #65 on: May 21, 2022, 12:25 PM »
Thanks for posting that chart @ChuckS, it's interesting. Two things I noticed that surprised me was the belt sander needing a 5" duct and the band saw needing a 5" duct.

I have a Jet JSG-6DC which is a 6" belt with a 12" disc. Both factory dust ports are 4" diameter.

And on the really stupid side is that before I made the 4" diameter dust collection housing for the Delta bandsaw, it came with a factory connection of 1.5".  [jawdrop]
Mine is also a 4" port on the bandsaw. But bandsaw dust collection, like the one for miter saw, is a tough spot. Rob Cosman came up with this idea:



For the record, Cosman's shop is VERY dusty, and I wouldn't want to work in that kind of shop without wearing a N95 mask all day long!

Offline 4nthony

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #66 on: May 21, 2022, 01:39 PM »
Can you provide a link? I'm having a difficult time trying to locate the forum. Thanks.

I think this is the site:

https://www.woodworkforums.com/f200
Recon Tool Notifications

Anthony

"The best way to get a correct answer on the internet is to post an obviously wrong answer and wait for someone to correct you." - Kevin Kelly

Offline Mini Me

  • Posts: 229
Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #67 on: May 21, 2022, 05:58 PM »
I recommend anyone who wants to learn more go to the Australian WW forum and study the DE findings on that site as it is the best source of information on the planet bar none. There are several sticky folders with solid proven data that can't be found anywhere else.

Can you provide a link? I'm having a difficult time trying to locate the forum. Thanks.

https://www.woodworkforums.com/    Main forum

https://www.woodworkforums.com/f200   Dust Extraction sub forum

There are several sticky folders at the top of the sub forum page.

Offline Mini Me

  • Posts: 229
Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #68 on: May 21, 2022, 06:11 PM »
Cosman reckoned he had the dust problems solved when he moved pnto his new premises but apparently not.

Bandsaws are a real issue for a couple of reasons. Most of them have only one port on the cabinet and an air entry has to be created to allow make up air to enter the cabinet. If the entry for air does not exist then air flow stops dead so the dust piles up in the cabinet. There are some quite elaborate systems shown in the Oz forum but most go with a pick up on top of the table, modify the cabinet for air entry and hook up a line to the cabinet port. 2 x 4" lines equal 1 x 6" line or near enough. 

Offline Cheese

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #69 on: May 21, 2022, 08:17 PM »
Most of them have only one port on the cabinet and an air entry has to be created to allow make up air to enter the cabinet. If the entry for air does not exist then air flow stops dead so the dust piles up in the cabinet.

You're right, just like an HVAC system, the volume of exhaust air is regulated by the volume of supply air. That's the reason I ventilated the zero clearance inserts.

From the top.




From the bottom.




This also made a huge difference in the amount of sawdust that was removed on a resawn board. Before this mod, when you separated the 2 boards sawdust literally poured out of the kerf between them.

Offline Mini Me

  • Posts: 229
Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #70 on: May 22, 2022, 04:44 AM »
Most of them have only one port on the cabinet and an air entry has to be created to allow make up air to enter the cabinet. If the entry for air does not exist then air flow stops dead so the dust piles up in the cabinet.

You're right, just like an HVAC system, the volume of exhaust air is regulated by the volume of supply air. That's the reason I ventilated the zero clearance inserts.

From the top.

(Attachment Link)


From the bottom.

(Attachment Link)


This also made a huge difference in the amount of sawdust that was removed on a resawn board. Before this mod, when you separated the 2 boards sawdust literally poured out of the kerf between them.

But when the ventilated plate is covered it is blocked during cutting and does not flow air.

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 3594
Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #71 on: May 22, 2022, 09:11 AM »
The blockage also happens on the table saw with a ZCI, and that's why above-the-table dust collection helps in that kind of cut. My SawStop blade guard (attached to a shop vac for max effectiveness) really shines in that...like a dust-free operation.

On the other hand, the ZCI on my Kapex does not impede dust collection.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 9786
Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #72 on: May 22, 2022, 09:27 AM »
But when the ventilated plate is covered it is blocked during cutting and does not flow air.

Well yes & no...there's still enough air flow because of the huge reduction of sawdust that was trapped when resawing boards. I wish I had taken before & after pictures but the reduction of trapped sawdust was 5x to 10x...it was incredible. I also noticed the resawn boards and the saw blade were both cooler because the blade no longer had to resaw the sawdust.

Here's a good example of the air flow that still gets through, the 1st photo is immediately after sawing and the 2nd photo is simply opening the door. Notice the lack of sawdust buildup on the inside and on the lower wheel so there is significant air movement.




Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 3594
Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #73 on: May 22, 2022, 09:44 AM »
Cheese,
My throat disc has a wide gap and dust in the cabinet never is an issue because the 4"port takes care of it. It's the dust that I see above the table that bothers me.

My old solution was to place a box fan (with a filter) on the exit end, but it wouldn't work when sawing a long stock.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2022, 09:48 AM by ChuckS »

Offline Joelm

  • Posts: 158
Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #74 on: May 22, 2022, 10:11 AM »

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #75 on: May 22, 2022, 10:14 AM »
Mini me’s comment on Cheese’s zero clearance insert makes sense but if it works anyway…

Still, it might be even better to add a hole in the zci kerf slot behind the blade.

Offline jeffinsgf

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #76 on: May 22, 2022, 06:58 PM »
Cheese (and others interested), here's my Cincy Fan dust collector with Donaldson canister filter.


Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 5515
Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #77 on: May 22, 2022, 07:28 PM »
@jeffinsgf that looks so much like my old Delta portable collector. So Cincy Fan made them for Delta?

Offline jeffinsgf

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #78 on: May 22, 2022, 09:49 PM »
Sure looks like it. I have one of the Delta ones, too. They're identical right down to the mold lines in the drum top and the wording of the warning labels.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2022, 09:57 PM by jeffinsgf »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 9786
Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #79 on: May 23, 2022, 09:44 AM »
Hey Jeff, thanks for posting the photo and the Cincy sales brochure. That photo really takes me back over 60+ years. When I was growing up my neighbor's father was a professional house builder and in his home shop he had one of those units. It sat on top of a fiber barrel that was the color of MDF. It was labeled as a Delta unit and this was in the late 60's or early 70's so they've been around awhile.

Also, the Cincy brochure confirmed the CFM values that Chuck posted earlier. Of further interest, Chuck's latest post also mentions Donaldson for their filter expertise.

The 1st .pdf is from the Cincy brochure and the 2nd photo is the latest from Chuck...notice the red underlined sentence near the bottom.  [smile]

* Dust Collection CFM 1.pdf (2032.15 kB - downloaded 36 times.)


Offline kimbuaslı

  • Posts: 6
Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #80 on: May 23, 2022, 09:53 AM »
Hey Jeff, thanks for posting the photo and the Cincy sales brochure. That photo really takes me back over 60+ years. When I was growing up my neighbor's father was a professional house builder and in his home shop he had one of those units. It sat on top of a fiber barrel that was the color of MDF. It was labeled as a Delta unit and this was in the late 60's or early 70's so they've been around awhile.

Also, the Cincy brochure confirmed the CFM values that Chuck posted earlier. Of further interest, Chuck's latest post also mentions Donaldson for their filter expertise.

The 1st .pdf is from the Cincy brochure and the 2nd photo is the latest from Chuck...notice the red underlined sentence near the bottom.   [smile]

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)
It looks very nice

Offline Mini Me

  • Posts: 229
Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #81 on: May 23, 2022, 08:00 PM »
Hey Jeff, thanks for posting the photo and the Cincy sales brochure. That photo really takes me back over 60+ years. When I was growing up my neighbor's father was a professional house builder and in his home shop he had one of those units. It sat on top of a fiber barrel that was the color of MDF. It was labeled as a Delta unit and this was in the late 60's or early 70's so they've been around awhile.

Also, the Cincy brochure confirmed the CFM values that Chuck posted earlier. Of further interest, Chuck's latest post also mentions Donaldson for their filter expertise.

The 1st .pdf is from the Cincy brochure and the 2nd photo is the latest from Chuck...notice the red underlined sentence near the bottom.  [smile]

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

An interesting table and it illustrates my point about the evolution of thinking that has taken place in recent years and why it has taken place. I am guessing and yes it is a guess that in days gone by the prime aim of dust collection was to keep the work place clean from heavy debris and not much more but our understanding has moved on form that. To have a good chance to capture the sub 5 micron dust we need to flow about 1000 CFM and that requires several things.

Firstly 4" pipe won't flow that much at typical high volume pressures that a capable ducted system will create. The maximum is around 750 CFM which is way too low.

4" machine ports ditto and until manufacturers recognise that fact there is only one solution and that is enlarge the port to match the duct size.

The 6" recommendation is the minimum, I have seen reports that 7" works better but that is unobtainable in Oz so I can't verify it.

Just as an aside Clearvue supply a DE with a 16" impeller (Clearvue Max) and it was produced for use in other countries where the grid supply was 50hz which is what just about every country uses outside the US and I guess Canada. This meant that the motor speed dropped from 3450 to 2850 RPM and at that motor speed would have the same performance as their 15" impeller machine. Of course that plan went out the window when everyone started to use the 16" machine in the US and to do that a 8" duct system is needed with 6" drops to the machines. Using the bigger impeller means multiple machines can be used at once with good dust capture at both. Another advantage of a Max is that it can be run at slower speeds with less noise using a 3 phase motor and a VFD. As I have said previously I would not buy a single phase DE for a bet.


Offline DynaGlide

  • Posts: 1431
Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #82 on: June 01, 2022, 12:57 PM »


After lots of research I landed on this Jet unit. It was $900 with an eBay Memorial Day sale coupon. Things I like are the 1.5HP motor, the faux thien baffle/cylone whatever you wanna call it vortex, small footprint, and pretty good 2 micron filtration. I have one of those 1 micron ceiling mount filtration units I run any time I'm in the shop kicking up dust. I'm A-OK running hose to each tool since I only have room for a few tools anyway. If I can have a bandsaw, jointer, and planer in my shop that's plenty. And my little jobsite table saw from DeWalt when I need to rip stuff.

It supposedly has 1100CFM at the motor and since my shop is so small, the hose will only extend about 6 feet to a tool in use. It's 'technically' mobile, but on my rubber mat flooring it's tough to move so I'll keep it parked where it is unless I really badly need the space for a project.

I'll use the Rockler Dust right setup that allows for quick connect to tools.

Now back to figuring out which jointer to get. .

Matt
« Last Edit: June 01, 2022, 01:01 PM by DynaGlide »
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Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 3594
Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #83 on: June 01, 2022, 01:25 PM »
Same price as the Rockler but 1/2HP more. That should be good for any of your machine. Those castors can easily be changed to larger ones if one day mobility becomes important.

Are you going to use it with an auto switch? Except the CT15, I use all dust extraction equipment with an iVac auto switch (2 x 15 amp outlets).

Offline DynaGlide

  • Posts: 1431
Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #84 on: June 01, 2022, 01:32 PM »
Same price as the Rockler but 1/2HP more. That should be good for any of your machine. Those castors can easily be changed to larger ones if one day mobility becomes important.

Are you going to use it with an auto switch? Except the CT15, I use all dust extraction equipment with an iVac auto switch (2 x 15 amp outlets).

I looked into the Jet switch and people say it trips a 20amp breaker so I'll pass on that. I have an iVac 16amp dedicated to my Kapex/FLEX vac setup. Not sure if I'll get one for the DC just yet. I mean, I will, just not sure which unit to purchase at the moment. Does iVac offer a unit for 1.5HP? The one I have on my FLEX vac maxes out at 1HP I believe.
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Offline ChuckS

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #85 on: June 01, 2022, 01:42 PM »
https://www.ivacswitch.com/ivac-for-diys/ivac-dust-collector-remote-switch/ That site may have info. about auto switches for 1.5HP.

I also remember another thread on this Forum about auto switches for 20 amp? or 2 HP?

Offline ChuckS

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #86 on: June 01, 2022, 01:49 PM »

I looked into the Jet switch and people say it trips a 20amp breaker so I'll pass on that. I have an iVac 16amp dedicated to my Kapex/FLEX vac setup. Not sure if I'll get one for the DC just yet. I mean, I will, just not sure which unit to purchase at the moment. Does iVac offer a unit for 1.5HP? The one I have on my FLEX vac maxes out at 1HP I believe.

Each of my iVAC auto switches provides two 15amp outlets (provided the switch is plugged into two separate 15 amp circuits). If your 1.5 HP d.c. is rated for 15amp and the machine used with the d.c. is also rated for 15amp or lower, you can use the ordinary iVAC auto switch.

My auto switch only tripped once when it was used with the 1HP dust collector, SawStop 1.75Hp and a shop vac all together at the same time while ripping a long 2" thick oak plank.

Offline DynaGlide

  • Posts: 1431
Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #87 on: June 01, 2022, 01:50 PM »
https://www.ivacswitch.com/ivac-for-diys/ivac-dust-collector-remote-switch/ That site may have info. about auto switches for 1.5HP.

I also remember another thread on this Forum about auto switches for 20 amp? or 2 HP?

So it looks like that's the one I already have. Shame I can't hook both my FLEX vac and the Jet to it. When I setup my Kapex I put it and my FLEX on separate 20amp circuits and put one of those clamp on sensors on the cable of the Kapex to automate the flex vac. I didn't want to take any chances after all the Kapex failure nonsense.
If it can truly handle a 1.5hp DC I'll probably buy another for the Jet. I'm leery since it says 16A or something on the front of it. Or I guess I could steal the iVac I have now and move it over to the Jet and get a cheap remote switch for the Flex and get used to turning the FLEX on/off whenever I'm using the Kapex. Not a horrible solution as I often find I'm waiting for the iVac to turn on/off the vac doing quick cuts on the Kapex.


Edit: I think I'll pickup just the remote for $30 and try that out and see how I like it and if it causes any issues with my breaker.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2022, 01:57 PM by DynaGlide »
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Offline ChuckS

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #88 on: June 01, 2022, 02:35 PM »
When I setup my Kapex I put it and my FLEX on separate 20amp circuits and put one of those clamp on sensors on the cable of the Kapex to automate the flex vac. I didn't want to take any chances after all the Kapex failure nonsense.

Same worry here with my EB model (now 7 years old). I hook the Kapex up to an auto switch with one cord plugged (tool) into a 20amp circuit and the other aux. (shop vac) into a 15amp circuit. (During the first year of pandemic, I spent a few hundred dollars (even city inspection (virtual two times) cost money!) and installed two 20amp circuits in the shop myself.)
« Last Edit: June 01, 2022, 02:43 PM by ChuckS »

Offline DynaGlide

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #89 on: June 01, 2022, 02:42 PM »
When I setup my Kapex I put it and my FLEX on separate 20amp circuits and put one of those clamp on sensors on the cable of the Kapex to automate the flex vac. I didn't want to take any chances after all the Kapex failure nonsense.

Same worry here with my EB model (now 7 years old). I hook the Kapex up to an auto switch with one cord plugged (tool) into a 20amp circuit and the other aux. (shop vac) into a 15amp circuit.

@ChuckS So the iVac turns on the DC no problem when I flip it manually. But after thinking it over I don't really think I need a remote. It's within 6ft of my workspace and DC's aren't really meant to be turned on/off repeatedly anyway. It isn't a big deal to walk over and turn it on before I use a tool and leave it on until I'm done.

Now if it were shoved into a corner and hard to get to I'd reconsider.
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