Author Topic: Tiny dust collector  (Read 8013 times)

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Offline ChuckS

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2022, 06:21 PM »
Snip.
Not sure that's correct-
Snip.

The CFM given on the product page could be wrong, but until it is corrected, that's what I went by.

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Offline ChuckS

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2022, 06:28 PM »

Snip.
Also saw the reviews on these.  Interesting units.  Similar to Supercell

Snip.

No idea about the Record or the Supercell. If i go by the spec., I know 300 cfm or higher is what an average size machine needs:

https://www.oneida-air.com/blog/4-things-every-good-dust-collector-needs

« Last Edit: May 19, 2022, 06:31 PM by ChuckS »

Offline jeffinsgf

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2022, 07:13 PM »
If you're not afraid of used, I would scour FB Marketplace and CraigsList for a Cincinnati Fan or late 80s to early 90s Delta two-stage barrel collector. Cincy Fan made the Delta. I have one of each. On the Cincy Fan, I replaced the bag filter with a Donaldson diesel rig air filter. I eventually will do the same for the Delta. They're quiet, reasonably powerful, low profile, easy to empty and come with very capable casters. I honestly don't know why the design went out of favor. I paid $50 for the Delta and $75 for the Cincy Fan. Tack on another 50ish for the Donaldson filter. I wouldn't trade them for any of the $600-$800 single stage collectors mentioned earlier.

Offline ChuckS

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2022, 08:10 PM »
I'd second Jeff's second-hand suggestion with one rider if the target is a plain, single dust collector: Find one that can be outfitted with a replacement HEPA filter.

We have a store here selling HEPA drum filters for those who want to upgrade from their filter bags. The catch is not every dust collector can be upgraded like that.

Offline Mini Me

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2022, 09:08 PM »
I'm looking for one too.  I have one car garage shop and I'm thinking of 1.5hp, ~1200 cfm. Will it be enough for me to use it for Miter, Table, Planer and Jointer? Or do I have to go larger? I know 2hp jumps price pretty high...

Forget the HP rating and buy the unit that has the biggest impeller. The HP rating means zip unfortunately as a 2 or 3HP on a 12" impeller will flow the same amount of air as long as the motor is at full speed.

All DE's with bags either plastic or cloth leak dust, I have never seen one that doesn't.

Never believe the advertised CFM numbers, they are all BS apart from a few noticeable exceptions such as Oneida or Clearvue and the latter does not quote flow numbers or didn't but I have not checked lately

If all you want is to keep the floor clean and pick up the big stuff just about any high volume DE will do that job and so will a broom but it won't collect the fine sub .5 and under particles that permanently stay in you lungs and cause long term health issues.

Vacuum cleaners do not capture the fine dust and the cheapies smash what they do collect into smaller particles and they all leak.

To collect the fine dust a high volume DE using 4+ inch ducts is required

Cyclones of any size are inefficient and reduce the airflow because that is how they work

The retail industry has not got a clue about dust extraction apart from the few companies such as Oneida and Clearvue etc.

Flexible hose kills air flow in a major way

Buy a dust monitor and use it to minimise the airborne dust, information is knowledge

Depressing isn't it, people think they are doing the right thing and they are literally being given the wrong information which then has long term health effects that can't be reversed. You are better off buying a powered respirator and forgetting tiny DE's, no floor space issues, no hoses etc.




Offline twistsol1

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2022, 09:20 PM »
Grizzly has one with nearly identical specs for $569

https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-1-hp-canister-dust-collector/g0583z
A shop full of tools and no talent

Offline Cheese

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2022, 09:39 PM »
On the Cincy Fan, I replaced the bag filter with a Donaldson diesel rig air filter. I eventually will do the same for the Delta.

Wow Donaldson...haven't heard about them in years...they were the original go-to filter people and they produced the best of the best industrial filters...also situated in the Twin Cities.  [smile]

Offline jeffinsgf

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2022, 09:55 PM »
Cheese, at the shop we have several different brands of pleated filter dust collectors, all of which leak dust. The Donaldson (so far) does not. It was less expensive than any of the after-market conversions for dust collection and it took me a half a day and $20 worth of parts to figure out how to put it together. I'm happy with it and will do exactly the same thing for my other barrel collector. I used to roll one dust collector from machine to machine. Now I have one of the barrels permanently on my table saw, one on my radial arm saw and I only have to roll the single-stage around to the other stuff.

Offline Cheese

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2022, 10:34 PM »
Cheese, at the shop we have several different brands of pleated filter dust collectors, all of which leak dust. The Donaldson (so far) does not. It was less expensive than any of the after-market conversions for dust collection and it took me a half a day and $20 worth of parts to figure out how to put it together. I'm happy with it and will do exactly the same thing for my other barrel collector. I used to roll one dust collector from machine to machine. Now I have one of the barrels permanently on my table saw, one on my radial arm saw and I only have to roll the single-stage around to the other stuff.

Hey Jeff I'm interested in this barrel stuff...any photos? Donaldson does have the credentials...they are good at what they do.  [big grin]

Offline jeffinsgf

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #39 on: May 20, 2022, 06:41 AM »
I'll snap a few tonight. Cincinnati Fan still makes the same design. Amazing that they haven't done anything about increasing their filter efficiency. Here's a link to a PDF of their brochure. https://www.cincinnatifan.com/catalogs/DustCollectors108-sls.pdf

Offline DynaGlide

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #40 on: May 20, 2022, 07:47 AM »
Now I'm back looking at the wall mount setups. After watching this video:



It doesn't really take up a ton of space like I thought it would. I know they offer a stronger motor rated for 1250 cfm now and I'd go that route. Whether or not it actually reaches those #'s I doubt it, but if I made it two stage then more is better, right? In the video he used the 650 cfm version.

That Oneida Supercell he upgraded to sure does look nice too. Spendy, but nice.



His videos are clearly sponsored even though he doesn't say it. They come off like ads. But they're still well presented.
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Offline festal

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #41 on: May 20, 2022, 08:02 AM »
Now I'm back looking at the wall mount setups. After watching this video:



It doesn't really take up a ton of space like I thought it would. I know they offer a stronger motor rated for 1250 cfm now and I'd go that route. Whether or not it actually reaches those #'s I doubt it, but if I made it two stage then more is better, right? In the video he used the 650 cfm version.

That Oneida Supercell he upgraded to sure does look nice too. Spendy, but nice.



His videos are clearly sponsored even though he doesn't say it. They come off like ads. But they're still well presented.

Main issue with supercell is the cost and noise.  Its got 3 shop vac motors inside so supercell is noiser then regular ones.  If you wear hearing protection you probably don't care.  Also you have to use special flexible hose or 4" ducting with these

Offline Mini Me

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #42 on: May 20, 2022, 08:34 AM »
The question can be asked is would you prefer to put a set of ear defenders on or have dusted lungs. Speak to any Oncologist and see what he recommends, your health depends on how much you invest in it so what is yours worth?

Offline DynaGlide

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #43 on: May 20, 2022, 09:09 AM »
How important is having HEPA filtration vs the 1 or 2 micron canisters most machines offer for tools like jointer, bandsaw, and table saw? That's the other consideration I'm looking into. I'll pay more to get better filtration if it's an option.

Noise is something I'd have to think about since I'm in the house. I haven't gotten any complaints so far but it sounds like some of these bigger motor units don't like to be cycled, i.e. turn them on and leave them on until you're done more or less. I don't have 220V but it would be easy enough for me to add it myself.

Duct work is a non starter. Whatever I go with will use a flex hose with a short distance to the tools.

Edit: This one is appealing for the above reasons https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-1-1-2-hp-wall-mount-dust-collector-with-hepa-filter/g0944hep It may have been mentioned earlier in the thread, sorry if I missed it.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2022, 09:22 AM by DynaGlide »
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Offline Packard

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #44 on: May 20, 2022, 10:06 AM »
If I were ambitious, I would change my  ducts to run between the rafters and I would use the same galvanzied ducts that I used for my dryer vent.  Only using the flexible hose for drops from the ceiling. 

Use rubber isolation pads when mounting the unit and install rockwool  sound insulation immediately above the vacuum.  It will go a long way towards mitigating the noise. 

I suspect that most of the "noise" is sympathetic vibrations that the subfloor picks up.  So the rubber isolation pads are the first thing I would try.  The rubber for sound isolation has a very specific durometer so it is best to buy the ones specified for that use.

Grainger's offerings are cheap enough that it does not pay to screw around with ersatz vibration pads.  Just a couple of dollars each.  If there is a Grainger store near you, then no shipping charges.

https://www.grainger.com/search/hardware/mounts-and-vibration-control/cylindrical-vibration-isolators?tv_optin=true&searchQuery=vibration+isolators&searchBar=true&suggestConfigId=6

Offline Peter_C

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #45 on: May 20, 2022, 12:55 PM »
There are always a ton of Jet bag type dust collectors on Craiglist in my area for usually more than they are worth, but sometimes cheap. Buying something like a 2HP and adding an Oneida Dust Deputy with a larger HEPA filter would do what you need. Lots of folks remove the cart and then wall mount them (Look for Wynn filter "upgrade" vids, just don't buy a Wynnn, or so I recommend). There are more than a few Youtube vids of folks doing so. Anything can be modified to fit anywhere, with plenum boxes not hard to make. You are a woodworker right? ;)

You have a lot of options. I would keep an eye on Ebay. Took me a few months, but eventually I found a brand new 3HP Jet Cyclone without filter for a smokin' deal and grabbed it. Wouldn't have wanted the filter anyhow as I upgraded to a HEPA filter. So for 1/3 the price of new I got a functioning dust collector. Find your own deal :)

This two are 3 phase units but that would give speed adjust-ability using a VFD which are around $120 for a Chinese unit. I would want to know shipping ahead of time, and they do have a "Make Offer" button. Bent housings are common on about everything sheet metal that is shipped. Missing filter is a good thing. With a cyclone attached one would work pretty well.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/353995791680?hash=item526bcb1d40:g:NoIAAOSwauZiTdJ3
https://www.ebay.com/itm/133927472813?epid=1802028260&hash=item1f2eb30ead:g:bWgAAOSw2gVhaGZy

Oh and if sending via freight it is always cheaper to pickup at the freight yard.

Offline ChuckS

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #46 on: May 20, 2022, 01:19 PM »
Beware of analysis paralysis.

I have never been to a shop -- hobbyist, school, cabinetmaking or even store that sells dust collectors -- that is dust-free, no matter what dust collection system is used or how big the HP is.

I'd say, just get a reasonable HEPA dust collector (mobile or wall-mounted) that fits your space, budget and machines, and start enjoying its protection. If it's wall-mounted, make sure it can be removed when you want to blow its dust off with compressed air.

Alone the dust collector probably isn't enough, so consider it as your first layer of protection (i.e. dust extraction at source). Then build on it with others such as a filtration system. Focus your attention on the "worst" and most used machines (for me, it's the table saw and miter saw). The N95 mask is my last line of defence, used in long sawing sessions.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2022, 01:48 PM by ChuckS »

Offline John Russell

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #47 on: May 20, 2022, 08:36 PM »
I'm working through this issue, what dust collector is good enough?  I'm convinced that a HEPA filter is worthwhile and I'm willing to pay for that.  My space does not lend itself to duct work so connecting the collector to each machine is the default. Noise is also an issue since my basement shop does not have good sound insulation and it is right above the living room.  At first I thought the Oneida Mini Gorilla was my default choice, but it is pricey and maybe I'm paying more than necessary.  I have no interest in the modifications of Harbor Freight or other dust collectors so that is part of the appeal of something like the mini gorilla. I'll have to check out the details on the Grizzly linked above as well as the Cincinnatii machines...

Offline Mini Me

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #48 on: May 20, 2022, 08:37 PM »
Beware of analysis paralysis.

I have never been to a shop -- hobbyist, school, cabinetmaking or even store that sells dust collectors -- that is dust-free, no matter what dust collection system is used or how big the HP is.

I can understand that because without good advice most WW's fail on the purchase and installation through lack of education. In the end it comes down to how much are you prepared to invest in both money, work & time to protect your health. If you don't value your health then buying a cheap minimal DE is all you require and buying one that does the job properly is a total waste of time and money and you could use that money to buy a machine that produces more dust.
A bit like buying a crash helmet, more money = better protection.

Offline Mini Me

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #49 on: May 20, 2022, 08:47 PM »
I'm working through this issue, what dust collector is good enough?  I'm convinced that a HEPA filter is worthwhile and I'm willing to pay for that.

If you live in a mild climate like me all installations I have had anything to do with can be vented to atmosphere except for some specialty installations mostly in rented premises. Obviously this does not apply where air requires conditioning then you need a HEPA filter. The other end of the problem is how much dust will it pick up and small impellers don't have the flow to pick up much so must be run at full speed which is noisy. A bigger impeller on a 3 phase machine will actually be quieter because using a VFD will allow it to be run at slower speeds.

Offline Joelm

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #50 on: May 20, 2022, 09:34 PM »
This past winter I upgraded from a Rockler 1250 wall mounted unit to the Oneida Supercell. It is much more compact than my old set up at just under 2'X2'. The noise IS loud, but once I turn on my table saw or planer it doesn't make a difference.
It does have a hepa filter that is easily cleaned too which is nice.
I ran some tests with my old dust collector and was getting about 700CFM after a 5' length of 6" flex hose.  I tried to test the CFM on my Supercell but it stopped being able to track it after a few seconds. The suction was so strong that it broke the anemometers fan blades and sent them flying off into my workshop. I'm glad I had glasses on or that could have been bad.
I believe you can get a mobility kit for the Supercell too if you don't want to mount to the wall.

Offline ChuckS

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #51 on: May 20, 2022, 11:02 PM »
This shop was huge but also had a mega dust collection system (enclosed for noise reduction). Often, two SawStop ICS could be running at the same time plus jointers etc. But dust everywhere too. By my unscientific assessment after spending two days there, my shop (1 HP dc plus CT and shop vacs and 2x air filtration systems) is better. [tongue]



« Last Edit: May 20, 2022, 11:12 PM by ChuckS »

Offline Bob D.

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #52 on: May 21, 2022, 07:09 AM »
How high are the ceilings in that shop? Looks to be all of 20 feet. There's a lot of work expended in sucking all those chips and sawdust up 16 feet before you even start moving it horizontally toward the DC.

Your chart has a 4" duct and 400 CFM for a TS up to 16" with I'm guessing a 1/8" thick blade but a 5" duct and 600 CFM for a BS with a blade normally about a third the thickness of a TS blade. Seems backward to me.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2022, 07:12 AM by Bob D. »
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It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline DynaGlide

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #53 on: May 21, 2022, 08:37 AM »
This past winter I upgraded from a Rockler 1250 wall mounted unit to the Oneida Supercell. It is much more compact than my old set up at just under 2'X2'. The noise IS loud, but once I turn on my table saw or planer it doesn't make a difference.
It does have a hepa filter that is easily cleaned too which is nice.
I ran some tests with my old dust collector and was getting about 700CFM after a 5' length of 6" flex hose.  I tried to test the CFM on my Supercell but it stopped being able to track it after a few seconds. The suction was so strong that it broke the anemometers fan blades and sent them flying off into my workshop. I'm glad I had glasses on or that could have been bad.
I believe you can get a mobility kit for the Supercell too if you don't want to mount to the wall.

@Joelm Did you find the old setup lacking in suction? 700cfm seems plenty.
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Offline Cheese

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #54 on: May 21, 2022, 09:07 AM »
Thanks for posting that chart @ChuckS, it's interesting. Two things I noticed that surprised me was the belt sander needing a 5" duct and the band saw needing a 5" duct.

I have a Jet JSG-6DC which is a 6" belt with a 12" disc. Both factory dust ports are 4" diameter.

And on the really stupid side is that before I made the 4" diameter dust collection housing for the Delta bandsaw, it came with a factory connection of 1.5".  [jawdrop]

Offline Joelm

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #55 on: May 21, 2022, 09:50 AM »
@Joelm Did you find the old setup lacking in suction? 700cfm seems plenty.

700CFM was from the end of my 6" flex hose tied directly to the inlet. From there I tied into a super dust deputy then 4" flex hose to my router table. At the router table the CFM dropped to only 300CFM. I used a wye to run a 5" hose to my bandsaw and with the 5" hose the CFM was better at 500CFM.

However I measured the footprint of my old set up and it took up 47"X30" and was almost 9' high.

Now with the SuperCell my bandsaw gets 550CFM and my router table is getting 500CFM. Like I also mentioned it only takes up 23"X23" of space now too.


Offline Mini Me

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #56 on: May 21, 2022, 09:54 AM »
Did you find the old setup lacking in suction? 700cfm seems plenty.

700CFM is nowhere near enough to collect the fine dust. let me try and explain why that is the case. The depression in the duct is obviously higher when more air is flowing into the duct and the entry is usually compromised if the duct entry is not radiused using a bell mouth attached to the duct. As the air flow rises the bubble of depression in front of the duct entry increases in area and it is only in this area that effective and immediate capture of the dust takes place. A 6" duct flowing 1000cfm will obviously have a bigger capture area than a 4" duct flowing 600CFM so you begin to see that it is vital to use the biggest duct with a very strong air flow. Any size reduction to any part of that duct compromises the air flow and reduces the flow to what the smallest part of the duct can flow. If a 6" duct were to be run to a machine and the port on the machine is 4" then you just wasted a whole heap of money using 6" because the flow is restricted by the 4" port on the machine. We try and encourage anyone installing a system to open up the ports to 6" where possible as anything else is a compromise. My recipe for good DE is 6" duct/15" impeller/5hp/60hz/3 phase/VFD. That gives  excellent results and two machines can be running at once. A 16" impeller will enable the DE to be run at slower speeds with less noise and at the slower speed is equal to a 15" @ 60hz/3450 RPM.

I recommend anyone who wants to learn more go to the Australian WW forum and study the DE findings on that site as it is the best source of information on the planet bar none. There are several sticky folders with solid proven data that can't be found anywhere else.

Offline Mini Me

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #57 on: May 21, 2022, 10:05 AM »
700CFM was from the end of my 6" flex hose tied directly to the inlet. From there I tied into a super dust deputy then 4" flex hose to my router table.

Measuring duct flow correctly requires specialty equipment and an anemometer won't do it. Duct flow is not laminar across a duct and at the entry is so turbulent it can't be measured at all. Pitot tubes, hot wire and a manometer are the minimum instruments required to get anywhere near close. I am to trying to criticise here just provide information it has taken me many years to gain so I can pass it on to others. We run education courses for the simple reason that there are limited sources for good solid information and education. While I am on the band wagon 99% of DE online is wrong and should be ignored especially on YT. If anyone wants me to retire from providing information on this forum please let me know and I won't contribute on the subject.

Offline Cheese

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Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #58 on: May 21, 2022, 10:25 AM »
I recommend anyone who wants to learn more go to the Australian WW forum and study the DE findings on that site as it is the best source of information on the planet bar none. There are several sticky folders with solid proven data that can't be found anywhere else.

Can you provide a link? I'm having a difficult time trying to locate the forum. Thanks.

Offline Joelm

  • Posts: 158
Re: Tiny dust collector
« Reply #59 on: May 21, 2022, 11:32 AM »
Measuring duct flow correctly requires specialty equipment and an anemometer won't do it. Duct flow is not laminar across a duct and at the entry is so turbulent it can't be measured at all. Pitot tubes, hot wire and a manometer are the minimum instruments required to get anywhere near close. I am to trying to criticise here just provide information it has taken me many years to gain so I can pass it on to others. We run education courses for the simple reason that there are limited sources for good solid information and education. While I am on the band wagon 99% of DE online is wrong and should be ignored especially on YT. If anyone wants me to retire from providing information on this forum please let me know and I won't contribute on the subject.

I for one am happy for any additional information you can provide. It is hard to find much info on DE online.

I had a feeling that I was either measuring wrong on that my anemometer was not the right tool to test this correctly. It did give me a rough idea on relative values so I left it at that (especially after I broke it).

I assume that Oneida does a decent job of steering clients to something that is useful. In my case I was in contact with them for a month and ended up having them design my system for me.