Author Topic: Taiga Tools, What Happened? (Read 3383 times)

Hubiquitous · « **on:** March 28, 2021, 09:38 PM »

Does anyone know what happened to Taiga Tools? It was a small one-man shop (Wim was his name, I think) that started making an MFT Template and some other jigs under the name DominoFix. Then, started making rail guides and squares under the name Taiga Tools.

I bought the DominoFix jig in 2018 and then some dogs and the squares in 2019. But, when I went to buy more last December the website and Instagram page have vanished without a trace.

Bugsysiegals · « **Reply #1 on:** March 28, 2021, 10:07 PM »

I think he no longer wanted to be a Taiga because taigas play to rough ...

Roachmill · « **Reply #2 on:** March 29, 2021, 02:46 AM »

Wim was headhunted and packed in his business as a result. His new employer, IIRC, took on the rail square design and is / was set to make some more... but I don't think that's happened as yet. He's active on the Fesdrool Facebook group, but not as much as he used to be.

Bert Vanderveen · « **Reply #3 on:** March 29, 2021, 12:07 PM »

It would have been nice if Wim had communicated with his clients about changes imminent and such. I tried to contact him a few months ago and didn’t receive a reply. Hope his new venture pans out.

Hubiquitous · « **Reply #4 on:** March 31, 2021, 11:52 PM »

I share your sentiments too, Bert. Leaving the Instagram up with a post “Come find us at...” would be nice.

Cheese · « **Reply #5 on:** April 01, 2021, 12:27 AM »

I think there's a lesson to be learned here. While we all like the the new upstart companies, they do provide us with 2 givens...they are new and they are upstart. Buyer beware.

Hubiquitous · « **Reply #6 on:** April 01, 2021, 01:01 AM »

Ha, Cheese. That’s why I’ve never bought anything on Kickstarter. But, I’m a sucker for tools, I guess.

Cheese · « **Reply #7 on:** April 01, 2021, 01:25 AM »

Quote from: Hubiquitous on April 01, 2021, 01:01 AM

Ha, Cheese. That’s why I’ve never bought anything on Kickstarter. But, I’m a sucker for tools, I guess.

Hey Hubiquitous, I'm also a sucker for GOOD/GREAT tools but when Shaper first announced their entry into the router/CNC market, despite the substantial discount they were advancing, I didn't pull the pin. It was only after the recommends were in that I decided to make the move.

Still not sorry for that.

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #8 on:** April 01, 2021, 09:29 AM »

According to the above link a guide rail square is in development that will fit Festool Makita and Mafell/Bosch.

“Wim also took the opportunity to redesign the rail square – developing the second generation ‘hybrid’ model, which was expected to be available from April 2021. The latest Taiga Hybrid Rail Square is compatible with most guide rail profiles available on the market – fitting perfectly to all lengths of Festool, Makita, Triton, Evolution, Mafell, Bosch, Metabo and even the DeWalt profile guide rails.”

Cheese · « **Reply #9 on:** April 01, 2021, 10:06 AM »

Quote from: Michael Kellough on April 01, 2021, 09:29 AM

According to the above link a guide rail square is in development that will fit Festool Makita and Mafell/Bosch.

The accuracy they're claiming was particularly interesting to me along with 100% inspection levels.

"With tolerances of 0.005 – 0.007 degrees accuracy, these guide rail squares are dead on straight. Every rail square checked for accuracy on a probing system to guarantee these tolerance levels."

DeformedTree · « **Reply #10 on:** April 01, 2021, 12:00 PM »

Quote from: Cheese on April 01, 2021, 10:06 AM

Quote from: Michael Kellough on April 01, 2021, 09:29 AM
According to the above link a guide rail square is in development that will fit Festool Makita and Mafell/Bosch.

The accuracy they're claiming was particularly interesting to me along with 100% inspection levels.

"With tolerances of 0.005 – 0.007 degrees accuracy, these guide rail squares are dead on straight. Every rail square checked for accuracy on a probing system to guarantee these tolerance levels."

Yeah right, that would be a ridiculous cost that would never be justified. I just don't get what some folks think they are making at times. Would love to see it come with a paper that explains "accuracy only applies if workshop is certified to always be at 20C"

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #11 on:** April 01, 2021, 01:35 PM »

Quote from: DeformedTree on April 01, 2021, 12:00 PM

Quote from: Cheese on April 01, 2021, 10:06 AM
Quote from: Michael Kellough on April 01, 2021, 09:29 AM
According to the above link a guide rail square is in development that will fit Festool Makita and Mafell/Bosch.

The accuracy they're claiming was particularly interesting to me along with 100% inspection levels.

"With tolerances of 0.005 – 0.007 degrees accuracy, these guide rail squares are dead on straight. Every rail square checked for accuracy on a probing system to guarantee these tolerance levels."

Yeah right, that would be a ridiculous cost that would never be justified. I just don't get what some folks think they are making at times. Would love to see it come with a paper that explains "accuracy only applies if workshop is certified to always be at 20C"

Just to do a go/no go test? How long could that take?

mino · « **Reply #12 on:** April 01, 2021, 01:47 PM »

Quote from: Cheese on April 01, 2021, 10:06 AM

Quote from: Michael Kellough on April 01, 2021, 09:29 AM
According to the above link a guide rail square is in development that will fit Festool Makita and Mafell/Bosch.

The accuracy they're claiming was particularly interesting to me along with 100% inspection levels.

"With tolerances of 0.005 – 0.007 degrees accuracy, these guide rail squares are dead on straight. Every rail square checked for accuracy on a probing system to guarantee these tolerance levels."

5 thousands degree gives about 0.01 mm over a 200 mm reference edge which is about DIN Class 0 accuracy.

A square to that standard goes €20 over here and there is Class 00 which is even more accurate so I would presume they are targeting about DIN Class 0 equivalent on the square itself.

That is actually NOTHING SPECIAL as the GRS squares are made to similar tolerances. TSO just does not seem to boast these numerics on their site.

With 0.005 degrees, assuming the stock had a perfect reference surface, you are looking at 0.1 mm error over a 2m (7') stock which is the minimum accuracy you need to make a rail square useful.

Not saying they have a bad product. To the contrary. The numbers are in the right ballpark where they need to be for a good rail square. But also nothing special.

Ah and about checking your product. The moment you get into these accuracy requirements, you absolutely MUST check every single piece that leaves your factory. When you use such commercially, you will even pay third party for a calibration of every piece every once in a while.

Here I think TSO is the real pioneer - they understood the end-to-end accuracy requirement for a good rails square, including the long reference surface needed, the self-aligning mechanism being a must etc. etc. In this they created not a product but a whole class of products.

Class 0 accuracy on the GRS square versus Class 1 combined with the self-aligning mechanism create a new quality which turns a "gimmick" into an indispensable tool. Skip either and your repeatability is outa window and usability with it.

Now, since the concept of "square that is accurate enough to be relied on" cannot be patented, it is relatively easy for the newcomers to the market to create successful product. They already KNOW what accuracy they need to shoot for to enable the desired use cases. Just measure up a couple GRSes and you are good to go.

DeformedTree · « **Reply #13 on:** April 01, 2021, 02:43 PM »

Quote from: Michael Kellough on April 01, 2021, 01:35 PM

Quote from: DeformedTree on April 01, 2021, 12:00 PM
Quote from: Cheese on April 01, 2021, 10:06 AM
Quote from: Michael Kellough on April 01, 2021, 09:29 AM
According to the above link a guide rail square is in development that will fit Festool Makita and Mafell/Bosch.

The accuracy they're claiming was particularly interesting to me along with 100% inspection levels.

"With tolerances of 0.005 – 0.007 degrees accuracy, these guide rail squares are dead on straight. Every rail square checked for accuracy on a probing system to guarantee these tolerance levels."

Yeah right, that would be a ridiculous cost that would never be justified. I just don't get what some folks think they are making at times. Would love to see it come with a paper that explains "accuracy only applies if workshop is certified to always be at 20C"

Just to do a go/no go test? How long could that take?

When they say probing system, I take that to mean a CMM, which is an expensive machine, take a lot of time and money to set up, and takes time to do each inspection.

Few things see 100% inspection.

Now, if they are just going thru a gauging fixture(s), that's much quicker/easier, but gauges are not cheap either.

If it was say Festool with volume production, gauges and so forth would be expected, but for a small shop, making a low volume thing, it would get crazy very fast.

DeformedTree · « **Reply #14 on:** April 01, 2021, 02:55 PM »

Quote from: mino on April 01, 2021, 01:47 PM

5 thousands degree gives about 0.01 mm over a 200 mm reference edge which is about DIN Class 0 accuracy.

A square to that standard goes €20 over here and there is Class 00 which is even more accurate so I would presume they are targeting about DIN Class 0 equivalent on the square itself.

That is actually NOTHING SPECIAL as the GRS squares are made to similar tolerances. TSO just does not seem to boast these numerics on their site.

With 0.005 degrees, assuming the stock had a perfect reference surface, you are looking at 0.1 mm error over a 2m (7') stock which is the minimum accuracy you need to make a rail square useful.

What exactly do you think folks are building? 0.1mm over 2m (.004" over 7ft). If I called that out for a part I would have a lot of explaining to do, and that is making stuff out of metal.

The rail you are attaching to isn't going to be that straight. The slop in the saw to track isn't going to hold that. Errors in the saw, so on... And you are cutting wood which is going to shift.

Manufacturing of tools and such can make very accurate stuff, very cheaply. Thats why a cheap square can be so accurate, it's not hard to do, and thus nothing to brag about. What you make using those tools will never come close to the accuracy of the tool.

mino · « **Reply #15 on:** April 01, 2021, 04:27 PM »

Quote from: DeformedTree on April 01, 2021, 02:55 PM

What exactly do you think folks are building? 0.1mm over 2m (.004" over 7ft). If I called that out for a part I would have a lot of explaining to do, and that is making stuff out of metal.

Cabinets ?

It is not only about the square inaccuracy here. The rail interface surface not being exact parallel with the (slightly bent) rail full length adds about 0.1 mm per meter to that. Then the bending of the rail itself, another 0.1 or so for 1400. (yes I measured my rails when troubleshooting why the cuts were not square) Then there is the inherent inaccuracy from the reference edge not being absolutely precise/exact either which add another 0.1

At the end of the summation, you are easily 0.3 to 0.4 mm off over one meter length of cut before any inaccuracy of the square would come to play. At that point every 1/100 of a millimeter you can avoid being off is worth its weight in gold, as you have no practical way to reduce the other inaccuracies.

I my practice, 0.3mm off is already barely usable if you have multiple pieces that must meet and they need to be trimmed - which may not always be possible.

But that was not the point - the point was that the accuracy of the square needs to be about 2x or 3x better than the inaccuracy of the rail itself which is about 0.1 mm/meter (0.001" per feet) to make sure the cumulative error is still good-enough. I found that Festool has "calibrated" the max acceptable bend of their rails to be just about non-issue over typical lengths of cut.

When one uses a material reference surface, like a square has to, this about doubles this inaccuracy and moves into the "barely but still usable" territory. There is no space to triple it by the square inaccuracy and be "still fine".

I believe this is why GRS succeeded where others failed. It was able to produce spot-on square cuts by adding only insignificant own inaccuracy to the equation. In my kit case about 5x less than the rails (bends) add themselves. And it is no accident. Both my (Festool version) GRSes are the same precision.

EDIT: fixed math error

Quote from: DeformedTree on April 01, 2021, 02:43 PM

...
Now, if they are just going thru a gauging fixture(s), that's much quicker/easier, but gauges are not cheap either.

If it was say Festool with volume production, gauges and so forth would be expected, but for a small shop, making a low volume thing, it would get crazy very fast.

I would expect a manual check against a known-good square against light. If well calibrated (I mean the check) it can give you sufficiently good results as long as you know your employees and can trust them.

That aspect is often overlooked, a small shop can produce very high quality stuff with minimal tooling by moving a lot to the "human factor". Makes it vulnerable for long term stability but works well.
A real/big company with multiple workers (above 2-3 mini-team) must invest in much more proper tooling to remove the human factor if it wants any kind of reliability.

This is actually how the Russians were able to produce crazy-precise stuff with almost no CNC tooling. The same way English could two centuries ago. All was based on good old craftsmanship. The problem is, one cannot scale that beyond low-volume production. but given squares are a relatively low-work-volume thingie and this is mostly a startup, I would not expect them to be too worried there.

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #16 on:** April 01, 2021, 06:09 PM »

I’m with mino, it should not be that hard to tell if a square on the production line is within the spec.

Also agree that the .005-7 degree spec is just adequate for the purpose, not excessive.
Whatever error is built into the square will be multiplied by as much as 10x when the rail is factored in.

While I’m interested in this square because it can be used with Mafell/Bosch rails I’m concerned that it will have to be checked for proper alignment with the rail often since it is only secured with a pair of hand tightened screws. The TSO square has a leg up with it’s self-correcting spring latch.

ChuckM · « **Reply #17 on:** April 01, 2021, 07:24 PM »

Quote from: box185 on April 01, 2021, 07:09 PM

How could the person who decided what to show on a product page miss such critical info/photo?

Amateur-like performance to me.

FestitaMakool · « **Reply #18 on:** April 01, 2021, 07:39 PM »

Quote from: ChuckM on April 01, 2021, 07:24 PM

Quote from: box185 on April 01, 2021, 07:09 PM

How could the person who decided what to show on a product page miss such critical info/photo?

Amateur-like performance to me.

It is barely visible on the product photo on the website. I saw that there were a possible clip to attach to the rail.
Being a start up they may have their reasons to exclude details in the photos, and indeed high resolution ones... it is not only potential customers who scrutinise new products..

ChuckM · « **Reply #19 on:** April 01, 2021, 07:49 PM »

Quote from: FestitaMakool on April 01, 2021, 07:39 PM

Snip.

It is barely visible on the product photo on the website. I saw that there were a possible clip to attach to the rail.
Being a start up they may have their reasons to exclude details in the photos, and indeed high resolution ones... it is not only potential customers who scrutinise new products..

The key question is: Is that product ready for sale? If not, don't show it to anyone -- yet -- if its fear is about people stealing its design.

If the product is available for sale (it seems to be so since the price is quoted), then the objective of the product page should be to extract or attract as much as sales as possible. On that count, that product page has failed badly, because if I were looking for a rail guide for my track and were browsing that page vs TSO's, Festool's or Insta-rail's which all have the latch/clip shown, I wouldn't give it a second thought.

You mentioned that it's a start-up, then I shouldn't be surprised, because it might not have people of marketing/product page design expertise.

FestitaMakool · « **Reply #20 on:** April 01, 2021, 08:00 PM »

Exactly, and it’s also “normal” to start showing computer generated “images” wich do are life like.
And when quality control is done quickly, the wrong images are published. When your scroll trough a high number of files, and you don’t have impeccable structure on the files, these mistakes do happen. The thumb nail, and text for the lay out square are linked to a rail square..
Sooo, there’s a little more to tidy up.

Nothing wrong about this, and the squares could be really nice. It is probably a bag of mixed factors as you mention ChuckM. Give them some time, it’ll most likely get sorted.

greg mann · « **Reply #21 on:** April 01, 2021, 08:32 PM »

Quote from: DeformedTree on April 01, 2021, 12:00 PM

Quote from: Cheese on April 01, 2021, 10:06 AM
Quote from: Michael Kellough on April 01, 2021, 09:29 AM
According to the above link a guide rail square is in development that will fit Festool Makita and Mafell/Bosch.

The accuracy they're claiming was particularly interesting to me along with 100% inspection levels.

"With tolerances of 0.005 – 0.007 degrees accuracy, these guide rail squares are dead on straight. Every rail square checked for accuracy on a probing system to guarantee these tolerance levels."

Yeah right, that would be a ridiculous cost that would never be justified. I just don't get what some folks think they are making at times. Would love to see it come with a paper that explains "accuracy only applies if workshop is certified to always be at 20C"

Not necessarily true the cost is ridiculous. We machine castings, probe for critical dimensions, archive the data and print it to a barcode label, all in a production environment of hundreds of thousands per year. It is cheaper to probe than to have an operator measure.

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #22 on:** April 01, 2021, 08:46 PM »

Quote from: box185 on April 01, 2021, 07:09 PM

Quote from: Michael Kellough on April 01, 2021, 06:09 PM
While I’m interested in this square because it can be used with Mafell/Bosch rails I’m concerned that it will have to be checked for proper alignment with the rail often since it is only secured with a pair of hand tightened screws. The TSO square has a leg up with it’s self-correcting spring latch.

Thanks for the picture! Says a lot. I hope the new multi-rail version will have the spring latch too.

DeformedTree · « **Reply #23 on:** April 01, 2021, 09:04 PM »

Quote from: greg mann on April 01, 2021, 08:32 PM

Quote from: DeformedTree on April 01, 2021, 12:00 PM
Quote from: Cheese on April 01, 2021, 10:06 AM
Quote from: Michael Kellough on April 01, 2021, 09:29 AM
According to the above link a guide rail square is in development that will fit Festool Makita and Mafell/Bosch.

The accuracy they're claiming was particularly interesting to me along with 100% inspection levels.

"With tolerances of 0.005 – 0.007 degrees accuracy, these guide rail squares are dead on straight. Every rail square checked for accuracy on a probing system to guarantee these tolerance levels."

Yeah right, that would be a ridiculous cost that would never be justified. I just don't get what some folks think they are making at times. Would love to see it come with a paper that explains "accuracy only applies if workshop is certified to always be at 20C"

Not necessarily true the cost is ridiculous. We machine castings, probe for critical dimensions, archive the data and print it to a barcode label, all in a production environment of hundreds of thousands per year. It is cheaper to probe than to have an operator measure.

Yes, having a person measure is expensive. When I hear probe, I'm taking that to mean someone with a Faro or similar, which is still a person. Large volumes, yeah, set stuff up for some inspection. How many rail squares are made a year?

I just think folks are over thinking how accurate their stuff for wood working needs to be. Plenty of companies making money off them selling them "CNC square....." when the results will be no different than something far cheaper. At some point if people are needing extreme accuracy, it's time to buy a 4x8 CNC router, and even then they will only be so accurate.

A lot of issue will remain design. People need to think about their design and what are the critical features and how they can design to accommodate error.

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #24 on:** April 01, 2021, 09:28 PM »

“design to accommodate error.”

Good point!

The classic example is adding a face frame to a wanky box to make a good looking cabinet.
Harder to do with frameless cabinets.

Cheese · « **Reply #25 on:** April 02, 2021, 09:44 AM »

Quote from: Michael Kellough on April 01, 2021, 08:46 PM

Thanks for the picture! Says a lot. I hope the new multi-rail version will have the spring latch too.

Unfortunately I don't think it will. It needs that square hole so that the spring clip can reach through the hole and grab the rail.

From the Bosch/Mafell description:
"Quickly and easily slide the rail square on a guide rail and pull it square with the lever. Secure the rail to the square by gently tightening the two thumbscrews."

Locking mechanism is on the bottom of the rail square which prevents snagging of cables or accidently release of the rail square.

Triple locking mechanism making sure the rail square stays firmly in place."

From the Festool/Mafell hybrid description:
"Slide the rail square on to the rail and pull square with your thumb in the circular recess. Secure the rail to the square firmly in place, by gently tightening the thumbscrews."

mino · « **Reply #26 on:** April 02, 2021, 01:00 PM »

Quote from: DeformedTree on April 01, 2021, 09:04 PM

...
I just think folks are over thinking how accurate their stuff for wood working needs to be. Plenty of companies making money off them selling them "CNC square....." when the results will be no different than something far cheaper. At some point if people are needing extreme accuracy, it's time to buy a 4x8 CNC router, and even then they will only be so accurate.
...

I have a close friend. A good fella and a maverick in mechatronics prototyping.

When he saw me calibrating the $700 Festool saw for the $100 Festool rail and testing the squareness of a cut from a $150 rail square he was truly puzzled.

Background:
In our shared workshop there already was a $50 Makita saw and aplenty of "reasonably-straight" guiding pieces for cutting with it.

/below is a paraphrase of a real conversation/

He:
I do not understand why you are wasting your time and money with this. Wood stuff is cut close-enough and whatever material is over or under the need is filed, filled or just forced. Wood bends and shrinks, so what is the point ?

Me:
How much time do you usually spend fitting things (he does mostly stuff like barn doors, no way close to home furniture stuff) after you cut your pieces ?

He:
A couple hours. Is messy work.

Me:
Well, I like to avoid the messy part completely. That is what this accuracy is for. Cut once. And by the way, it means I can actually make good-looking furniture, not just "barn doors".. and do so at a reasonable time cost.

He:
Ehm.
---------------------------

Designing such that it is possible to address measuring errors is absolutely desirable and should be done whenever one can do. In some cases that is the only way.

The same way when making a solitary piece, cutting and drilling via transferred measures is the way to go.

But. It is even better to NOT HAVE TO include the "fix our sloppy cuts" work task at all when you are about to make 10 library cabinets.

Some people get a $10k table saw and rent shop space for it. Some get $2k tracksaw and accessories set instead. For each his own..

/if someone is an artisan making solitary unique hardwood pieces, then it is a completely different talk/

ChuckM · « **Reply #27 on:** April 02, 2021, 01:10 PM »

Quote from: DeformedTree on Yesterday at 09:04 PM
Snip.
I just think folks are over thinking how accurate their stuff for wood working needs to be. Plenty of companies making money off them selling them "CNC square....." when the results will be no different than something far cheaper.
-------
I don't know if the results are much better just because someone uses a square or measuring tool that has a tolerance of 0.00000000001mm, but I do know that when I use my engineer's square or BCT straight edge to check the high-end furniture pieces that I've bought in the past (from reputable furniture manufacturers), most of them aren't "dead flat or square." And I didn't know they aren't square or flat before that.

FestitaMakool · « **Reply #28 on:** April 02, 2021, 03:23 PM »

Funny, just finished a wall rack made from boards of glued pine (and meant to include some 18mm Paulownia boards in this build as well)
I THOUGHT I had several 18mm stock of boards stored. Yes, but no..
I needed real 18mm+ for spacing. So I set ahead and nearly cut all the pieces and started pinning and glueing, when I felt there’s something wrong about the thickness..
And yes, I had variations from 16,87 to 17,63 mm’s. The “true” 18mm was about 18,3mm..
So I really needed the 18+ dimensions for the “stick in shelf brackets” to make it future proof.
Finally a shelf from my stock of storage shelves from IKEA met the table saw and started a new venture, cause it was close to 18,3mm in thickness.

As stated, and in my experience, buy quality tools and make the best of it. Building with wood involves A LOT of measuring and control measuring. Still it is bespoke that matters, getting things as square as many are expecting really means handing the job over to a company that has the machinery to do it. Still when the new kitchen cabinets have been in situ for a while, it’s not square or level anymore. A small furniture, maybe, but usually not.
There’s often the level and straight edge are thrown away and a measuring device and eyesight makes better bespoke fittings. I recently trimmed my front door, a taper going from 0,3mm to 15,8mm in a 230mm stretch with my circular saw. It came out great, but it’s not a high end furniture piece.

mino · « **Reply #29 on:** April 03, 2021, 02:16 AM »

Quote from: ChuckM on April 02, 2021, 01:10 PM

I don't know if the results are much better just because someone uses a square or measuring tool that has a tolerance of 0.00000000001mm, but I do know that when I use my engineer's square or BCT straight edge to check the high-end furniture pieces that I've bought in the past (from reputable furniture manufacturers), most of them aren't "dead flat or square." And I didn't know they aren't square or flat before that.

Absolutely agree. Wood is wood, it works itself and even if was dead square when made, will not be a year later.

For me the accuracy/squareness/etc. is purely so that I can make stuff more efficiently (time) and with more pleasure as it is a hobby. I need the pieces to fit together at glue-up and the cabinets to be the same heights when hanging/placing next to each other.
Also, when making 5 same cabinets, it really helps you can rely on the part being the same and do not have to mark "matching pairs/combinations". With a cabinet saw, this is trivial. With just a tracksaw and a rail, the PGs and the squares are it for me.

After put together and/or installed, I do not care really. It is wood and it would bother me more if it did not twist and bend a bit. I would think is it chipboard almost...