Author Topic: Starrett combo square clarification please.  (Read 5145 times)

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Offline RJNeal

  • Posts: 547
Starrett combo square clarification please.
« on: May 25, 2020, 05:44 PM »
I’m in a market for a new square or two. I’m thinking a combination and a double.
Starrett has a bunch of 12” combination square, can someone please enlighten me on the differences.
Thanks.rick
Have you walked your saw today?

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7782
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2020, 06:26 PM »
Rick, Starrett 12” combination squares can be broken down into either being cast or forged. After that you choose what head style you want. I have the protractor head but don’t use it much, as in almost never.

I also have both cast & forged heads and think the cast head is a little more resilient if dropped on the floor. I’ve cracked a forged head when it hit the floor.

Remember you can swap out the 12” blade for an 18” or a 24” blade at a moments notice, it takes 10 seconds or less.
You can also choose the blade markings. Metric, fractional or 100ths of an inch.

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 645
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2020, 06:47 PM »
I’m looking at just the same ones you do, me too wandered about forged or cast.
For me it’s metric, but there are fewer options. I liked Veritas’ new pocket square too, but it’s only in imperial - wich had me look into the tiny Bridge City square with magnetic foot. That in particular could be interesting if one might set the foot at a narrow edge.

If anyone knows of alternatives I’d be happy too. But the combination square and double seems pretty obvious.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline Rob Z

  • Posts: 1007
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2020, 06:49 PM »
Rick, I have numerous Starretts and echo what Cheese said.  One thing to add is the finish of the blade.  I elected for what I think Starrett terms a satin finish. 

Also, I made a mistake once when ordering and ended up with the machinists blade. It's ok, but I never use it that way because I'm not working in decimal measurements. I mention this just as an FYI so you make sure you get what you want when you order.

Offline Tom in SoCal

  • Posts: 121
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2020, 07:57 PM »
Rick, I have numerous Starretts and echo what Cheese said.  One thing to add is the finish of the blade.  I elected for what I think Starrett terms a satin finish. 

Also, I made a mistake once when ordering and ended up with the machinists blade. It's ok, but I never use it that way because I'm not working in decimal measurements. I mention this just as an FYI so you make sure you get what you want when you order.

Ditto -- the satin chrome is the way to go...  costs a bit more, but is infinitely more readible.

Go to the Starrett site to educucate yourself on the rule markings...   I prefer the 16R style;  fractions and decimal inches but other options are available.

I prefer the smooth finished heads to the black wrinkle finish;  easier to keep clean.

So for me...  the C33h-12-16R is my preference. 

That said, and I love my Starrett stuff...  today the Products Engineering (PEC) brand is probably the value choice.  Outstanding quality, for much lower price than Starrett.  I'm not sure where they are made, which may be important to you.

Enjoy the search!  You'll love using it.

Offline Rob Z

  • Posts: 1007
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2020, 10:36 PM »
Hey Tom

I should have asked you to help me when I ordered years ago and I wouldn't have gotten the model number wrong.  [big grin]

I do like the crinkle finish on mine and now that I think about it, maybe because the texture makes it just a little bit easier to grip.  Either way , Rick will be happy with the quality of Starrett combo squares.

You're right about PEC brand.  A buddy has several PEC squares and they were really well made and a fraction of the cost of Starrett.

Offline RJNeal

  • Posts: 547
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2020, 11:16 PM »
Thanks everyone for your help and replies.
And thanks Tom for the suggestion.
It seems like all the narrative seem like they sound the same and it’s hard to compare online.
I fell in love with Starrett long time ago. I have my grandfather’s machinist tool box.
I have misplaced a few of the squares while I was doing the construction thing. Now that I’m having a dedicated shop, I need to replace them.
Rick.
Have you walked your saw today?

Offline Tom in SoCal

  • Posts: 121
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2020, 11:51 PM »
Hey Tom

I should have asked you to help me when I ordered years ago and I wouldn't have gotten the model number wrong.  [big grin]

I do like the crinkle finish on mine and now that I think about it, maybe because the texture makes it just a little bit easier to grip.  Either way , Rick will be happy with the quality of Starrett combo squares.

You're right about PEC brand.  A buddy has several PEC squares and they were really well made and a fraction of the cost of Starrett.

Don't get me wrong -- the crinkle finish is very cool.  I just find it a bit harder to keep clean. 

Machinist squares are definitely a "cry once" situation.  I bought mine 25 years ago;  it was expensive but I've enjoyed every time I've used it.

Pay  your money and take your choice!

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7782
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2020, 01:48 AM »
Well here's an interesting comparison.

The top blade is the Starrett chrome satin finish. The middle blade is a Starrett stainless item that's no longer available. It lives on the cast Starrett head that does duty mostly for outside jobs. The bottom blade is their standard blade and it's probably at least 30 years old. It rusts, it corrodes, it's difficult to read, you need to clean it with Scotch Brite from time to time.  Obviously the easiest blade to read is the satin chrome version. The satin chrome blade is actually easier to read than the stainless version.




Here's a comparison between the forged and the cast heads. I personally like the forged heads better because they're easier to clean, however I also noted they do seem a bit more susceptible to damage despite the fact that they are forged...go figure. They are also about 15%-20% more expensive than the cast versions.




If you're looking for a standard to gauge the rest of your precision tooling against, and seriously, every woodworker needs that, then Starrett is the solution. I was fortunate enough to become friends with our in-house QA group and I brought all of my Starrett squares in and had them gauged against the Starrett granite standards. As far as square goes, they were all within .0001-.0003 of the granite standards. My squares are daily working tools that are still capable of maintaining this accuracy 20-30 years after they were produced.

I may note, I'm a big fan of Woodpeckers squares and for the price, they provide a lot of bang for your buck. However I noticed several of mine were out of whack when I compared them to the Starretts.  I contacted Woodpeckers, they asked me how I determined their squares were wonky, I responded and consequently they sent me 2 new squares.

Spend a little less...get a lot less.


Offline rvieceli

  • Posts: 1271
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2020, 06:06 AM »
@RJNeal Rick if you are mostly doing woodworking, you'll probably find the 4R markings most helpful. It has 1/8 and 1/16 on one side of the blade and 1/32 and 1/64 on the other. I find myself reaching for the 13A 4 inch double square the most.

If you are not in a hurry you can sometimes find deals around. Regular prices on most Starrett stuff is within a narrow range. But sometimes Amazon's pricing algorithm will come up with a lower price. You can always set up a price alert. In addition, if you sign up for ZORO email, they routinely run coupon discounts and Starrett is NOT excluded. 15% off is the norm and often 20% with a rare 25% thrown in. ZORO is an industrial supply house.

www.zoro.com

Ron


Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 1740
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2020, 07:00 AM »
Another vote for Starrett. And yes to the chrome satin finished ruler, unless you manage to obtain a stainless steel ruler.

And while I use the H8 head the most... the other two also see light of day on a regular basis, hence I would suggest to spend a bit more and get a 43x (434 or 435, depending on going cast or forged) set. Plus (depending on depth of pockets) additional ruler(s) of different length.

Offline RJNeal

  • Posts: 547
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2020, 08:29 AM »
Again thank you for the education, and suggestion
Ron, zoro is pretty impressive. I signed up !
Rick
« Last Edit: May 26, 2020, 12:11 PM by RJNeal »
Have you walked your saw today?

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7782
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2020, 10:39 AM »
Here's a quick look at the 4 different graduations available, from 12" long to 48" long.

4R...1/8" & 1/16" on one side and 1/32" & 1/64" on the other.



16R...1/32" & 1/64" on one side and 1/50" & 1/100" on the other.



36...1/2 mm & 1/32" on one side and 1 mm & 1/64" on the other.



35...1/2 mm & 1 mm on both sides.

Offline RJNeal

  • Posts: 547
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2020, 12:11 PM »
O thank you Cheese, that was the missing link...
Have you walked your saw today?

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1978
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2020, 02:01 PM »
@Cheese In the pic showing the 3 blades with the different finishes, does the top blade looks like it's out 1/16th or more over 4 inches? 
-Raj

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7782
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2020, 02:33 PM »
@Cheese In the pic showing the 3 blades with the different finishes, does the top blade looks like it's out 1/16th or more over 4 inches?

No Raj it's just parallax error. Here's a wide angle shot of the 2 rulers together and then without moving them I took a close-up of the LH end & the RH end.





« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 02:53 PM by Cheese »

Offline jeffinsgf

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  • Posts: 309
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2020, 03:00 PM »
Just another feature of 4R not yet mentioned.

If you are measuring with the 1/8 scale, and you find it is not fine enough, rotate the tool 180 degrees and you're on 16ths. If that isn't fine enough roll it once and you're on 32nds. If that's not fine enough rotate it 180 degrees and you're on 64ths. Like-wise, I often find myself looking at 32nds when I don't need them and reverse the roll/rotate to get to the resolution needed.

To me, it's more important on rules than on the combo square, but I think the Starrett 4R is the most woodworking-friendly scale out there.

Offline RJNeal

  • Posts: 547
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2020, 03:59 PM »
Thanks Jeff, with my eye, I was hoping they had one side with Braille. [eek]
Have you walked your saw today?

Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 3183
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2020, 06:12 PM »
I bought the Starrett 6” double square a while ago and find I am using it more than any of my other squares. I only buy the satin finish blades due to their greater visibility. I also sometimes put a pencil mark on the blade. The marks are easy to erase on the satin. My tools are a mix of metric and Imperial so I have to buy both.
Birdhunter

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 645
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2020, 02:49 PM »
Thanks for a lot of good info. I’ll probably order at least one combination square and one double square from Starret.
I just stumbled over this video from How It’s Made: Featuring Starret.


“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7782
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2020, 03:03 PM »
Thanks 🙏 for that @FestitaMakool ...I watched it 3 times.  [big grin]

Very interesting that they etch the markings using photo resist and UV light, those are some of the same steps that are used when producing semiconductors.

I’m curious if they will eventually transition to laser etching?

Offline Rob Z

  • Posts: 1007
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2020, 03:23 PM »
Festita, that's a good video  [smile]

I have always wondered how Laroy Starrett was able to machine the first combination squares in the 1870's, to such a high standard of quality.  From what I have read, apparently the way we see the combination squares now is largely unchanged from his first model.

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 645
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2020, 06:11 PM »
Thanks @Cheese and @RobZ
.. I guessed that you already had seen it  [blink] [big grin]

Well, I thought so too, saving for another play tonight  [smile] It is such documentary that make you understand the thought and care put into seemingly simple product.
Also your explanation of the different rulers you can opt from Cheese, this is what makes me understand and appreciate even the “simplest” designs, and in the end make me want to buy that particular brand or item. I loved the “calibration check” in the end. I guess that particular tool is used under specific temperatures and is officially checked annually at an official department for accuracy.

I’m actually thinking of buying one ruler in imperial, for those rare occasions I could have the use. And I love the ones that goes into fractions! (I still mostly, for some odd reason [huh] buy folding rules with imperial in addition to metric. I guess it was my early learning of wood sizes back then from my uncle. It was easier to determine if the wood was in metric or imperial) Today however, all is in metric. But I do live in a house that is built with imperial wood, mostly 4x4”. And I’m resourcing old wood for restoration.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 4177
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2020, 10:48 PM »
I had been thinking about getting an 18" blade for my 12" Starrett combination square -- thanks to this thread I've just gone ahead and made my pockets a little lighter.
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T 18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TID 18 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS-EC 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • AGC 18-115 • CT 26 w/BT module • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3 • STM 1800

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7782
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2020, 11:38 PM »
Edward, I’ve used the 24” Starrett scale with a 90 degree head for an absolute square for many years before Woodpeckers released their large framing squares.

Now I use the Woodpeckers framing square because it is more durable...but not more accurate than the Starrett square.

One of the things I use the 24" Starrett blade for is to ensure the wheels on my band saw are coplanar. 
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 12:33 AM by Cheese »

Offline Rob Z

  • Posts: 1007
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2020, 11:58 PM »
Cheese, the Starrett I always wanted but never felt I really needed is the builders combination tool.  [big grin]

https://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/439-24

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7782
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2020, 12:26 AM »
Cheese, the Starrett I always wanted but never felt I really needed is the builders combination tool.  [big grin]

https://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/439-24

Ya I certainly hear you Rob...If I were God and had the ability to mint all my own coins...the Starrett builders combination tool would be mounted on the wall like the RED BADGE of COURAGE.  [big grin] [big grin] [big grin]

Serious wood workers & metal workers all need a test standard...something that can be measured and be put to the test. A standard that defies all the naysayers and those that declare that it's "good enough" and then when "good enough" isn't really good enough...they find fault with the tool instead of their own measurement methods.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7782
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2020, 01:03 AM »
I loved the “calibration check” in the end. I guess that particular tool is used under specific temperatures and is officially checked annually at an official department for accuracy.

Festita...I don't know if you have any background in manufacturing, but since the introduction of ISO manufacturing standards about 30 years ago, it's been common place to mandate temperature/climate controlled QA areas and annual inspection and verification of all inspection tools.

Also, along with the company QA people that are under the microscope, that also includes a complete verification of personal members (mechanical engineers) measurement tools if they are taking measurements to qualify a tool/product/jig/fixture/finished product. It may seem like an unnecessary/frivolous step at first but when dimensional issues raise their ugly head later on, the commonality of measurement standards is actually a God-send.

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 645
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2020, 04:46 AM »
Cheese.. That part was a purely an ironic comment  [big grin]
Knowing Starret and also other well known brands that manufacture high quality equipment does come in contrast to other, maybe not even unknown brands delivering equipment that one might wonder have calibrating QA. On occasions I’ve measured my measure tools up against each other, and there have been a couple of tools thrown in the bin. And I don’t buy and use cheap stuff without “calibrating” against my known measuring tools.
If I don’t have this in order (in woodworking that is) I’ll be sure to measure, mark and cut with one measuring tool where uniform shapes are not required.

I only have a tiny experience in manufacturing, nothing big, but significant enough to think and measure before I do.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 645
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2020, 04:49 AM »
Have you guys suggestions to where to buy Starret, in metric?
I can’t find a store that carry a wider range of metric Starret squares that ships internationally. Lee Valley does have a pretty good selection.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 1740
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2020, 05:35 AM »
Amazon?

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline MikeGE

  • Posts: 141
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2020, 06:19 AM »
Have you guys suggestions to where to buy Starret, in metric?
I can’t find a store that carry a wider range of metric Starret squares that ships internationally. Lee Valley does have a pretty good selection.
I bought my C434M-300 combination set from Amazon.de:

https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B000VDVSWA/

I bought the 14MA and 14MD from Dieter Schmid Fine Tools:

https://www.fine-tools.com/praezisionswinkel.html

Dieter Schmid also carries the C434M-300, as well as other metric Starrett tools, but I didn't find this store until I was looking for the 14MD.



Offline pixelated

  • Posts: 241
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2020, 09:04 AM »
Have you guys suggestions to where to buy Starret, in metric?
I can’t find a store that carry a wider range of metric Starret squares that ships internationally. Lee Valley does have a pretty good selection.

Based on @Cheese's link above it looks like Starret sells directly, and the prices don't look to be that far off what I've seen from retailers. I'd presume you could order it from them or perhaps they'd point you to a local distributor. I contacted them via email a few years ago to get parts for an indicator, and found them to be very responsive and prompt with shipping. I'd try contacting them and see what they say.

Offline Rob Z

  • Posts: 1007
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2020, 01:05 PM »
Festita

If you can't find what you want on Amazon, you could try calling "Tools For Working Wood" in Brooklyn, NYC.  I ordered Starrett from them (as well as many other tools) and maybe they would include what you need in their next order from Starrett.

I see they have a 100 mm double square in stock.

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 645
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2020, 01:37 PM »
Thanks a lot all!  [smile]

Now I have a few places to look into. (Me to just noticed that Starret has a web shop, it could be they would ship, as I really can’t find any distributor in my country)

I really like the pearl semi matte finish on the blade. Visibility really counts.
And that contractor combination square [scared].. oh, that was nice..
But, then again, not too much combination in one tool - the original is simple, effective, secure and fast to work with.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline mike_aa

  • Posts: 1178
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2020, 01:46 PM »
I seem to remember reading somewhere that Starrett offed a repair or refurbishment service for their products, but I did not see any mention of it on the website.  I was curious to see if anyone knows whether this exists or not?  I do have a number of Starrett items inherited from both my father and father-in-law; most in good to excellent shape, but a few that might benefit from a little work.  I did see that they have nearly 1,400 spare parts listed on the website so that might be an option for fixing things like squares with worn or unreadable rules.

Thanks, Mike A.

Offline GoingMyWay

  • Posts: 1096
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2020, 01:54 PM »
I just did a quick Google search and found their Repair Services page on their site: https://www.starrett.com/repair-services.
Inquiring Minds Want to Know

TS55, CT26, RO150, CXS, ETS 150/3, ETS EC 150/5, MFT/3, TS75, DF500, DTS400, OF1400, CT SYS

Offline Rob Z

  • Posts: 1007
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2020, 02:20 PM »
Festita, it just occurred to me that maybe you aren't in the US? I saw "NO" in your avatar and was thinking New Orleans, which is somewhat of a different place, as well LOL . [big grin]

If so, then maybe Tools For Working Wood isn't a good option for you. I don't know if they will ship out of the US?

Either way, good luck with the pursuit of Starrett tools.  They are expensive but man-oh-man are they nice to use.

Offline mike_aa

  • Posts: 1178
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2020, 03:00 PM »
I just did a quick Google search and found their Repair Services page on their site: https://www.starrett.com/repair-services.

@GoingMyWay  Thanks!  Since I was looking directly on their website and couldn't find anything, I never thought to google it!   [doh]

Has anyone here had any experience sending in an item?

Thanks, Mike A.

Offline GoingMyWay

  • Posts: 1096
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2020, 03:12 PM »
I tried searching using Starrett's website's search and I couldn't find that page either [huh].  Good thing Google knows everything!
Inquiring Minds Want to Know

TS55, CT26, RO150, CXS, ETS 150/3, ETS EC 150/5, MFT/3, TS75, DF500, DTS400, OF1400, CT SYS

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 645
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2020, 03:22 PM »
Festita, it just occurred to me that maybe you aren't in the US? I saw "NO" in your avatar and was thinking New Orleans, which is somewhat of a different place, as well LOL . [big grin]

If so, then maybe Tools For Working Wood isn't a good option for you. I don't know if they will ship out of the US?

Either way, good luck with the pursuit of Starrett tools.  They are expensive but man-oh-man are they nice to use.

Haha, would have been a lot closer then, but you’re right it’s not a US location it’s the international abbreviation of Norway or Kingdom of Norway.

Sometimes I find some users in here difficult to place myself... I’m not good at geography in the US either, but I know very well of Edgewater FL.. as that’s the place of the worlds best leisure boats are made  [wink].

Thanks, and you’re right, there are som things in life, which are a lifetime investment, and some tools are. A Starrett is a perfect candidate.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7782
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2020, 04:06 PM »
Here's a few screen shots from the Starrett catalog that may help decipher all of the Starret offerings for squares, square sets, blades and heads. They aren't real easy to read so I've included a link below to the .pdf of the Starrett catalog if you want to use that instead. Squares start on page 266.










And while we're talking about Starrett, here's a page where you can order some free printed literature. I find the Decimal Wall Charts and the Metric & Decimal Equivalent Cards to be the most useful. Just order what you want and the large wall chart will arrive in a mailing tube. It works nice in the shop because you can read it from a distance [big grin]

https://www.starrett.com/catalogs
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 04:12 PM by Cheese »

Offline hdv

  • Posts: 201
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2020, 04:38 PM »
Hi FestitaMakool, is buying at starrett.co.uk or starrett.de not an option for you?

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 645
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2020, 04:55 PM »
Hi FestitaMakool, is buying at starrett.co.uk or starrett.de not an option for you?

Yes it is, absolutely. But they are not only national distributors? Ie; sales to dealers only?
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 645
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2020, 05:01 PM »
That was very helpful Cheese, thanks!
(Although it is in fact a little diffuse textures in the image, making it just about readable for me over here, I guess it’s just all the saltwater it had to cross on its way [big grin])
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline hdv

  • Posts: 201
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #45 on: May 29, 2020, 05:37 AM »
I am not sure about the UK site, but I ordered a small double square from the DE site quite a while back and they delivered just fine. Maybe they still do?

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 645
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please
« Reply #46 on: May 29, 2020, 06:25 PM »
Thanks hdv!
I’ll certainly try the German or English site. There seems to be quite good availability on both.
Although it seems that the German site is a mirrored and lesser specs than the UK site.

- It’s easy to get confused by all the blade alternatives, and if one might want forged heads, you have to settle with one type of blade. It seems that the double squares makes it easy - inches or Millimeters and 100 and 150 mm blades (4 and 6”)

I think I’ll go for the shortest 100mm blade on the double square, and 300mm on the combination square. Any thoughts about the length?
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline RJNeal

  • Posts: 547
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #47 on: May 29, 2020, 07:40 PM »
My 6” double showed up today and the 12” combination is out 40 days. Ouch !
I thanks guys for reminding me about the builders square. I fell in love with them 15 years ago when they were only $425 I think.
Rick
« Last Edit: May 29, 2020, 07:42 PM by RJNeal »
Have you walked your saw today?

Offline hdv

  • Posts: 201
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #48 on: May 30, 2020, 01:53 AM »
That's exactly what I have: 100mm for the double square and 300mm for the combination square. In the past I did consider a longer ruler for the combination square, but in the end decided I didn't need it. In those cases where I need a longer reference edge I just use a "regular" Woodpeckers ruler or square.

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 4177
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #49 on: May 31, 2020, 09:18 AM »
My 18" ruler just came in, and have already put it to use on some cabinet doors.  Up until now I have used the Incra 18" flexible ruler for repeat marking above 12" or occasionally a Woodpeckers 24" ruler with a rule stop, but the former can be a little unwieldy, especially if you don't have a continuous flat surface, and the latter doesn't allow you to mark all the way on the edge of a board, since the rule stop needs to register on both sides of the ruler, setting it a bit off the edge.

Now I just need to fabricate a tool holder to hang it.

 
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T 18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TID 18 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS-EC 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • AGC 18-115 • CT 26 w/BT module • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3 • STM 1800

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 645
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #50 on: May 31, 2020, 02:17 PM »
That's exactly what I have: 100mm for the double square and 300mm for the combination square. In the past I did consider a longer ruler for the combination square, but in the end decided I didn't need it. In those cases where I need a longer reference edge I just use a "regular" Woodpeckers ruler or square.

Thanks, that’s more or less my thoughts. The 4” can be a very versatile square, all my existing fails due to being too long. And with the 12” one can transfer with a ruler to extend.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 645
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #51 on: October 06, 2020, 01:10 PM »
Finally, today a 150mm double square arrived, actually from my regular Festool supplier.
This was a nice vehicle to be interrupted by outside when I’m occupied inside with work at “home office”..



And the hunt for double squares continues (Have enquired from Starrett.co.uk, but no answer yet, probably end up buying from Lee Valley)

Some photos below.
I noticed that the square had som real sharp edges on the casting.. even some finishing issues.
I’ll sand the edges ever so slightly with metal sanding paper to ease those knife like edges.
Another thing is that it seemed a half hair out of square in 100mm  [blink]

It is a very handy size and will live in my apron along with a 150mm Tajima SS ruler which came along at the same time today.







Tajima ruler, with a very handy scale on the flip side..
321557-4
321559-5
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 645
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #52 on: October 12, 2020, 06:02 PM »
I gave up getting more Starrett locally.
I made an inquiry with Axminster, and unfortunately they were not able to special order the items I wanted. Thanks a lot to Axminster for replying, great customer service. I did also send Starrett UK an email, but one week later I have not received an answer.

I ended up ordering from Lee Valley, a 150mm double square, and since the 100mm was on back order I justified UPS Express shipping with adding a premium 150mm combination square with forged head and (Pearl) chrome ruler.

So far so good, Lee Valley had excellent customer service, notifying me that they could not ship all batteries with the lights I ordered on the same order. Got the light shipped without dry cells, simple fix as AAA batteries is something I usually stock large quantities of  [big grin]
UPS delivered in three days, impressed. Box was perfect on arrival.

Then, opening the Starrett boxes, well.. the double squares handle had marks, appeared to be light corrosion on the edges, not especially fresh looking. Then the combination square, the special washer that has ears which fit in the grooves of the head jammed itself with the bolt as the hole and grooves for the tabs on the washer where off center of each other. Making it jam when unscrewing and push the nut to release the ruler. Not good.
I had to file the grooves wider in order to not let the washer jam the locking bolt.

You can see on the (poor smartphone 🙄) images below. See the one photo where the tabs are off center and touching the outer parts of the groove. The grooves themselves was much wider than on my other cast iron heads. It was really poor build quality and quality check.
Not what I expected on the “Premium” version  [blink]
Anyhow, both squares are now in full working order, and the double square I wet sanded with 1200 wet sanding paper, so it looks as it should in the first place.

Looking really forward to using these.
And @Cheese - Agreed: Somehow the cast heads seems nicer to hold. I just thought I might try a forged too. Next will be cast, with scriber - nice to have at hand with the square.
Thanks a lot for advising!  [smile]





“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7782
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #53 on: October 13, 2020, 11:00 AM »

Then, opening the Starrett boxes, well.. the double squares handle had marks, appeared to be light corrosion on the edges, not especially fresh looking. Then the combination square, the special washer that has ears which fit in the grooves of the head jammed itself with the bolt as the hole and grooves for the tabs on the washer where off center of each other. Making it jam when unscrewing and push the nut to release the ruler. Not good.
I had to file the grooves wider in order to not let the washer jam the locking bolt.

Not what I expected on the “Premium” version  [blink]
Anyhow, both squares are now in full working order, and the double square I wet sanded with 1200 wet sanding paper, so it looks as it should in the first place.

Looking really forward to using these.
And @Cheese - Agreed: Somehow the cast heads seems nicer to hold. I just thought I might try a forged too. Next will be cast, with scriber - nice to have at hand with the square.
Thanks a lot for advising!  [smile]


Hey @FestitaMakool
Glad you finally got the procurement issues sorted.  [smile]  I've always had great service from Lee Valley, a true North America gem. The shipping time is very impressive similar to the shipping I get from DLS on Festool items from Germany.

Sorry to hear about the quality issues, I know these items are still made in the USA so the QA issues are very disconcerting. [sad]

Here's something I ran across on Starrett squares that may be of interest.
https://www.starrett.com/docs/other-downloadable-resources/combination-square-insert---form-955.pdf?Status=Master

The first thing I noticed when I purchased the 13A & 13MA Double Squares is that the blade movement is not nearly as smooth as the Starrett Combination Squares. It reminds me of my 4" Mitutoyo, the blade is difficult to move and is scratchy rather than smooth. Difficult to sort as the Double Squares are only 2-3 years old and the Combination Squares are 20 & 25 years old. Maybe the parts just need to bed in?

Here's a shot of forged vs cast Combination heads.




Also notice the small divot that has been taken out of the post where the "lock bolt assembly" resides. What struck me is that for a forging, it seems to be extremely brittle and the metal has much larger grain structure than I would expect. If I didn't know better, I'd assume this was a cast head rather than a forged head. [tongue]




Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2099
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #54 on: October 13, 2020, 11:11 AM »

Sorry to hear about the quality issues, I know these items are still made in the USA so the QA issues are very disconcerting. [sad]


It happens. Depending on what it is, the origin of make seems to have slightly less relevance in quality these days. A few years ago, between a US and China-made BBQ stoves on display at a store, I picked the American one and paid more, but the grill had QC issue that the upper rack fell off when you opened the lid a few times. Previous non-American stoves had no such problem.

What's important when we shop is from whom. Its customer service is the gatekeeper when things go wrong.

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 645
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #55 on: October 14, 2020, 04:54 PM »
@Cheese
Thanks again for your insight  [smile]

Agree with you guys, customer service, and the willing to make a difference are important.
LV made my first order with them a very pleasant experience, so did Axminster. I need look no further. I’m hesitant to buy online, I buy over the counter whenever I can. But something, and especially specialist items are now more or less mandatory to find online (at least here).

The link you provided Cheese, it’s exactly the same that came in the set box in folded letter format. I thought it was a nice old fashioned way of presenting the tools.
Too bad these certificates not following all boxes, a bit picky, but..  (This could also easily be the boxes opened and the documents removed after leaving Starrett facilities)


The certificate in the photo was only found in the double square box. And to the contrary of your experience Cheese, my double 150mm double square was maybe the smoothest of them all. And after a check, maybe the absolute squarest too, along with the large combination square. Not implying that the others where out, but ever so slightly anyway. The 150mm cast combination square is also very smooth, more so than the forged. It helped the forged after filing the recessed areas for the washer. Note also the difference of the thickness on the side of these two in comparison to your larger squares. I’ve noted the weight in Lb in the photo as well. (The rulers themselves weigh the same)


I was surprised to see the coarseness in the grain as shoved in yours, 🤔
I’m anyhow very pleased with the Starrets, and would like to see more of these readily available here. They are sort of problem solvers and can be used for many applications. And I like the sheer weight [wink]
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7782
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #56 on: October 14, 2020, 11:50 PM »
Hey Festita...I just noticed the difference in sectional thicknesses between the cast and the forged versions.  [eek] [eek] [eek]

That's huge and then when you publish the weight differences between them that just punctuates the issue. For the exactly same sized tool to be 20% heavier/lighter just because of the manufacturing process, that's something to think about.

It's not a surprise per se to those that are cognizant of the importance of the subtlety of manufacturing issues, but it is a reminder that seemingly similar items can confuse folks into thinking that if it looks like "X" then it is the equivalent of "X"....that's not necessarily the truth.

So where's the scribe for the cast square...just using it as a tooth pick?  [poke]

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 645
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #57 on: October 15, 2020, 06:13 PM »
Well, Cheese, I did my very best to get the tooth pick to fit [poke]
But it won’t.. cause I got the “wrong” version..


There are indeed noticeable weight difference, the forged version feels more toy-ish in comparison. But if I’d had just the forged, maybe not. It feels solid.
That said, I don’t know if the regular 150/6” combination square WITH the tooth pick has the same thickness as my 10MH-150 “Student square” (I didn’t notice it was this version until I received it, it nevertheless look the same, minus the scriber.

I forgot to mention here that I also got this from Axminster: A really nice set...



“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7782
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #58 on: October 15, 2020, 07:44 PM »
Well Festita...you got me on that one, I never realized that Starrett produced a combo square without a scriber in the end...that surprises me.  [jawdrop]

I guess it kind of makes sense for the student version because I believe they offer it at a lesser price. However, that brings up the question then if on some of the other "Student" offerings from Starrett if there is also a feature or two that have been removed for pricing purposes.  [sad]  Maybe that's also the reason for some of the the poor finishing you experienced on the cast square?

Glad to see you got the centering head, I don't use it often but it's really slick for marking/finding centers on round stock.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2020, 06:39 PM by Cheese »

Offline BarneyD

  • Posts: 99
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #59 on: October 15, 2020, 09:10 PM »
I was also surprised about the "student" version and the poor (IMHO) finish on it. I also didn't know that they made a student version.

I have that same combination set, 12 inch, forged, purchased 50 years ago when I first started in the machine shop. Just as accurate and useful today as it was then. I don't remember what I paid for it but I do remember that it was expensive. I've never regretted buying it. And I still use it all the time. Will be passed down to my boys when I'm gone. You'll enjoy it for many years, Festita.

Cheers,
Barney

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 645
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #60 on: October 16, 2020, 06:01 PM »
Well, I was kind of surprised myself to see that there were not even a hole for the pin.
I was just thinking when you wrote how and why they offer the student version.
(I’ve hear similar stories for other companies:) Sometimes cosmetically not perfect samples come off a production line that ends up in a “lesser” but cheaper versions of those who pass all inspections. Instead of write it off, It’s a valid choice to re-use and perfectly fine if it does it’s job as the product it was meant to be in the first place, only with lower grade finish.

The butt end of mine had a small bump in waist section. I’ve done an attempt to sand it flat and in square to the bottom - just in case I could use the small area to butt up against in a tight corner.

I’m sure all of these will serve me well, probably a lifetime if treated well. I’d be glad to pass them down to my sons, once they recognise and appreciate such a tool.
The center finder is something I’ve missed numerous times, a very welcome addition.

I was briefly thinking of a longer ruler with the 12”/300mm square, but would it be useful?
The heads base isn’t exactly long.. and I fear it will be a waste with a longer ruler.
Do you have experience with it?

I found that I can use the 6”/150mm ruler on the large head, but the 12”/300mm will not fit the small head. The 12”/300mm ruler is slightly thicker, and therefore doesn’t fit.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

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Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7782
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #61 on: October 17, 2020, 09:29 PM »
Well, I was kind of surprised myself to see that there were not even a hole for the pin.
I was just thinking when you wrote how and why they offer the student version.

I was briefly thinking of a longer ruler with the 12”/300mm square, but would it be useful?
The heads base isn’t exactly long.. and I fear it will be a waste with a longer ruler.
Do you have experience with it?


Well Festita, after looking at the photos of the rear end of your square something looked very unfamiliar. I didn't know what it was until I gathered my 3 squares and took a look.
Mine vs yours...






Besides not having the hole for the scriber, your square is also missing "the plug". "The plug" covers the hole where the glass vial for the level is inserted.  [eek]

So for this student version square, the scriber & the level have both been deleted in the interest of reducing costs. Like I mentioned previously, I'm now curious how the other "Student" tools have been gelded.






For your last question I have no experience at all.

I do however use both a 18" and a 24" scale with the 2 large square heads a lot of the time for marking cut lines and thus making sure that repetitive cut pieces are the same length.

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 4177
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #62 on: October 18, 2020, 10:51 AM »
Asking @Cheese or someone who has the 439 builders square -- does it use the same blades as the combination square?  Was trying to find clarification of this on the Starrett website, but couldn't find the info.

Alternatively, can the blades be purchased separately (I see that the head can be, so presumably the blades should as well)?  The 439-18 is selling for a much more reasonable price than the 24" version, so I wouldn't mind maybe to get the 18" version now and sometime in the future get the 24" blade.

Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T 18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TID 18 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS-EC 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • AGC 18-115 • CT 26 w/BT module • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3 • STM 1800

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7782
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #63 on: October 18, 2020, 11:23 AM »
Sorry Edward...I don't know much about the 439 except that I always wanted one. Then Woodpeckers came out with their 2616 aluminum square and that urge to spend $500 subsided.  [smile]

I do know the blade on the 439 is 1 1/2" wide as opposed to 1" on the standard square. I have also seen photos where someone mounted the standard square head to a 439 blade so blade thickness must not be an issue.

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 4177
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #64 on: October 18, 2020, 11:25 AM »
Oh, for some reason I assumed you must have one.  I see the spec difference now on blade width b/w the builders and combo square.  So the question now is just where and whether I can get a 24" blade for the 439.


Sorry Edward...I don't know much about the 439 except that I always wanted one. Then Woodpeckers came out with their 2616 aluminum square and that urge to spend $500 subsided.  [smile]

I do know the blade on the 439 is 1 1/2" wide as opposed to 1" on the standard square. I have also seen photos where someone mounted the standard square head to a 439 blade so blade thickness must not be an issue.
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T 18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TID 18 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS-EC 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • AGC 18-115 • CT 26 w/BT module • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3 • STM 1800

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7782
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #65 on: October 18, 2020, 12:42 PM »
Edward, I just checked my Starrett catalog and even in that they do not separately list blades for the 439. I'm sure they're available you'll just have to give them a call.  [smile]

Athol MA
978-249-3551

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 4177
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #66 on: October 18, 2020, 01:38 PM »
Hmmm, odd.  I'll reach out to the company then.  Thx for checking!

Edward, I just checked my Starrett catalog and even in that they do not separately list blades for the 439. I'm sure they're available you'll just have to give them a call.  [smile]

Athol MA
978-249-3551
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T 18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TID 18 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS-EC 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • AGC 18-115 • CT 26 w/BT module • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3 • STM 1800

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 4177
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #67 on: October 21, 2020, 04:09 PM »
Just talked to Starrett (didn't realize they actually pronounce it "Stare-It").  Turns out the 18" and 24" blades are interchangeable on the builders tool.  So in a weird quirk of current pricing, you can actually get the 439-18, then buy the 24" ruler separately, and still spend less money than if you were to just buy the 24" version.

Amazon currently lists the 439-18 at $314; whereas the lowest I've seen for the 24" model is $473.  The price for the separate 18" and 24" rulers are basically the same at around $101 
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T 18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TID 18 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS-EC 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • AGC 18-115 • CT 26 w/BT module • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3 • STM 1800

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7782
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #68 on: October 21, 2020, 04:49 PM »
Amazon currently lists the 439-18 at $314; whereas the lowest I've seen for the 24" model is $473.  The price for the separate 18" and 24" rulers are basically the same at around $101

Very interesting Edward as the head-only direct from Starrett, H439, goes for $364.  Amazon sells the head-only for $376.

https://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/H439

Thanks for the info...it's been saved.  [big grin]
« Last Edit: October 22, 2020, 10:13 AM by Cheese »

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 4177
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #69 on: October 22, 2020, 12:36 PM »
This is weird.  When I saw the price so low at $314, I decided to pull the trigger and get it.  Less than an hour later I was checking back on the listing and it went back up to $451.  If you look at the price history it had been creeping down incrementally over the past month, but is back now to what it usually goes for.  Dynamic pricing in action.

Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T 18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TID 18 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS-EC 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • AGC 18-115 • CT 26 w/BT module • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3 • STM 1800

Offline demographic

  • Posts: 609
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #70 on: October 22, 2020, 01:48 PM »
For me the 300mm ones arent that great.
They don't really fit into my tool pouch, and if they do they jab me in the leg/elbow when I bend down.
I have been using a 150mm one for a few years now and it does 90% of what I want but fits nicely into my pouch and doesn't try to stab me 3 times a day.
Then I have a 400mm one thats more or less just as bad to carry as the 300mm but I just leave it on a bench and don't even try and that does most of the rest of the square marking thats not covered by a full size framing square or the 345 method.

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 645
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #71 on: October 23, 2020, 04:54 PM »
For me the 300mm ones arent that great.
They don't really fit into my tool pouch, and if they do they jab me in the leg/elbow when I bend down.
I have been using a 150mm one for a few years now and it does 90% of what I want but fits nicely into my pouch and doesn't try to stab me 3 times a day.
Then I have a 400mm one thats more or less just as bad to carry as the 300mm but I just leave it on a bench and don't even try and that does most of the rest of the square marking thats not covered by a full size framing square or the 345 method.

Second that that the 300mm is not a carry on tool. Neither are the many regular squares available here, where most happens to be 250-300mm as the shortest available.
That’s also annoying, that there is almost no option in shorter framing squares, and I’ve heard professional carpenters and framers say the same. Though speed squares are increasingly more popular. Got one of those myself - but pocket friendly, no! [mad]
I have a couple of really good Bacho squares, one being a little tired on the not so business end - having been used for filling insulation around windows and many other things, so markings are long gone. I was thinking shortening it to a maximum of 200mm or less, maybe just above 150mm. That length is usually more than enough for most framing tasks and more. Being old It’s still square, and being near half the length of it’s original 300mm it can live in a pocket without poking all kinds of stuff, including me [big grin]
That’s basically why I bought the shorter Starretts, but the extras can only be acquired with the 300mm as a set or separate. Then for me its a shop tool, and that’s fine.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

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Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #72 on: October 25, 2020, 12:26 PM »
Builder's tool arrived.  The head is so massive that it actually makes the 18" blade seem small





I'm going to get the 24" blade separately to have greater length capacity, but the smaller blade is actually a good fit for storage in my tool cabinet.

Tool is dead on square at 90 doing the flip test



The only thing that might be off is how the markings on either side line up.  On one side you have the traditional 0-90 angle markings, and on the other inches per foot.  When you lock it down to 12 inches per foot, the reading on the other side is slightly off 45 degrees





I've tested it up against a fixed 45 degree triangle, and found that the 45 degree angle setting lines up perfectly with true 45, whereas the 12 inches per foot marking falls around 45.2.  Not a huge discrepancy, and since I will probably only use this with the angle markings, one that will not be consequential.  But I'm curious to hear from anyone else who has this whether there is a similar differential alignment?  Maybe even enough to ask for a new head?

This will definitekly come in handy though next summer when I plan to rebuild the deck at my parents' house.
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