Author Topic: Starrett combo square clarification please.  (Read 5147 times)

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Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 1740
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2020, 05:35 AM »
Amazon?

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Offline MikeGE

  • Posts: 141
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2020, 06:19 AM »
Have you guys suggestions to where to buy Starret, in metric?
I can’t find a store that carry a wider range of metric Starret squares that ships internationally. Lee Valley does have a pretty good selection.
I bought my C434M-300 combination set from Amazon.de:

https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B000VDVSWA/

I bought the 14MA and 14MD from Dieter Schmid Fine Tools:

https://www.fine-tools.com/praezisionswinkel.html

Dieter Schmid also carries the C434M-300, as well as other metric Starrett tools, but I didn't find this store until I was looking for the 14MD.



Offline pixelated

  • Posts: 241
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2020, 09:04 AM »
Have you guys suggestions to where to buy Starret, in metric?
I can’t find a store that carry a wider range of metric Starret squares that ships internationally. Lee Valley does have a pretty good selection.

Based on @Cheese's link above it looks like Starret sells directly, and the prices don't look to be that far off what I've seen from retailers. I'd presume you could order it from them or perhaps they'd point you to a local distributor. I contacted them via email a few years ago to get parts for an indicator, and found them to be very responsive and prompt with shipping. I'd try contacting them and see what they say.

Offline Rob Z

  • Posts: 1007
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2020, 01:05 PM »
Festita

If you can't find what you want on Amazon, you could try calling "Tools For Working Wood" in Brooklyn, NYC.  I ordered Starrett from them (as well as many other tools) and maybe they would include what you need in their next order from Starrett.

I see they have a 100 mm double square in stock.

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 645
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2020, 01:37 PM »
Thanks a lot all!  [smile]

Now I have a few places to look into. (Me to just noticed that Starret has a web shop, it could be they would ship, as I really can’t find any distributor in my country)

I really like the pearl semi matte finish on the blade. Visibility really counts.
And that contractor combination square [scared].. oh, that was nice..
But, then again, not too much combination in one tool - the original is simple, effective, secure and fast to work with.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline mike_aa

  • Posts: 1178
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2020, 01:46 PM »
I seem to remember reading somewhere that Starrett offed a repair or refurbishment service for their products, but I did not see any mention of it on the website.  I was curious to see if anyone knows whether this exists or not?  I do have a number of Starrett items inherited from both my father and father-in-law; most in good to excellent shape, but a few that might benefit from a little work.  I did see that they have nearly 1,400 spare parts listed on the website so that might be an option for fixing things like squares with worn or unreadable rules.

Thanks, Mike A.

Offline GoingMyWay

  • Posts: 1096
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2020, 01:54 PM »
I just did a quick Google search and found their Repair Services page on their site: https://www.starrett.com/repair-services.
Inquiring Minds Want to Know

TS55, CT26, RO150, CXS, ETS 150/3, ETS EC 150/5, MFT/3, TS75, DF500, DTS400, OF1400, CT SYS

Offline Rob Z

  • Posts: 1007
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2020, 02:20 PM »
Festita, it just occurred to me that maybe you aren't in the US? I saw "NO" in your avatar and was thinking New Orleans, which is somewhat of a different place, as well LOL . [big grin]

If so, then maybe Tools For Working Wood isn't a good option for you. I don't know if they will ship out of the US?

Either way, good luck with the pursuit of Starrett tools.  They are expensive but man-oh-man are they nice to use.

Offline mike_aa

  • Posts: 1178
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2020, 03:00 PM »
I just did a quick Google search and found their Repair Services page on their site: https://www.starrett.com/repair-services.

@GoingMyWay  Thanks!  Since I was looking directly on their website and couldn't find anything, I never thought to google it!   [doh]

Has anyone here had any experience sending in an item?

Thanks, Mike A.

Offline GoingMyWay

  • Posts: 1096
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2020, 03:12 PM »
I tried searching using Starrett's website's search and I couldn't find that page either [huh].  Good thing Google knows everything!
Inquiring Minds Want to Know

TS55, CT26, RO150, CXS, ETS 150/3, ETS EC 150/5, MFT/3, TS75, DF500, DTS400, OF1400, CT SYS

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 645
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2020, 03:22 PM »
Festita, it just occurred to me that maybe you aren't in the US? I saw "NO" in your avatar and was thinking New Orleans, which is somewhat of a different place, as well LOL . [big grin]

If so, then maybe Tools For Working Wood isn't a good option for you. I don't know if they will ship out of the US?

Either way, good luck with the pursuit of Starrett tools.  They are expensive but man-oh-man are they nice to use.

Haha, would have been a lot closer then, but you’re right it’s not a US location it’s the international abbreviation of Norway or Kingdom of Norway.

Sometimes I find some users in here difficult to place myself... I’m not good at geography in the US either, but I know very well of Edgewater FL.. as that’s the place of the worlds best leisure boats are made  [wink].

Thanks, and you’re right, there are som things in life, which are a lifetime investment, and some tools are. A Starrett is a perfect candidate.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7782
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2020, 04:06 PM »
Here's a few screen shots from the Starrett catalog that may help decipher all of the Starret offerings for squares, square sets, blades and heads. They aren't real easy to read so I've included a link below to the .pdf of the Starrett catalog if you want to use that instead. Squares start on page 266.










And while we're talking about Starrett, here's a page where you can order some free printed literature. I find the Decimal Wall Charts and the Metric & Decimal Equivalent Cards to be the most useful. Just order what you want and the large wall chart will arrive in a mailing tube. It works nice in the shop because you can read it from a distance [big grin]

https://www.starrett.com/catalogs
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 04:12 PM by Cheese »

Offline hdv

  • Posts: 201
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2020, 04:38 PM »
Hi FestitaMakool, is buying at starrett.co.uk or starrett.de not an option for you?

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 645
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2020, 04:55 PM »
Hi FestitaMakool, is buying at starrett.co.uk or starrett.de not an option for you?

Yes it is, absolutely. But they are not only national distributors? Ie; sales to dealers only?
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 645
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2020, 05:01 PM »
That was very helpful Cheese, thanks!
(Although it is in fact a little diffuse textures in the image, making it just about readable for me over here, I guess it’s just all the saltwater it had to cross on its way [big grin])
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline hdv

  • Posts: 201
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #45 on: May 29, 2020, 05:37 AM »
I am not sure about the UK site, but I ordered a small double square from the DE site quite a while back and they delivered just fine. Maybe they still do?

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 645
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please
« Reply #46 on: May 29, 2020, 06:25 PM »
Thanks hdv!
I’ll certainly try the German or English site. There seems to be quite good availability on both.
Although it seems that the German site is a mirrored and lesser specs than the UK site.

- It’s easy to get confused by all the blade alternatives, and if one might want forged heads, you have to settle with one type of blade. It seems that the double squares makes it easy - inches or Millimeters and 100 and 150 mm blades (4 and 6”)

I think I’ll go for the shortest 100mm blade on the double square, and 300mm on the combination square. Any thoughts about the length?
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline RJNeal

  • Posts: 547
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #47 on: May 29, 2020, 07:40 PM »
My 6” double showed up today and the 12” combination is out 40 days. Ouch !
I thanks guys for reminding me about the builders square. I fell in love with them 15 years ago when they were only $425 I think.
Rick
« Last Edit: May 29, 2020, 07:42 PM by RJNeal »
Have you walked your saw today?

Offline hdv

  • Posts: 201
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #48 on: May 30, 2020, 01:53 AM »
That's exactly what I have: 100mm for the double square and 300mm for the combination square. In the past I did consider a longer ruler for the combination square, but in the end decided I didn't need it. In those cases where I need a longer reference edge I just use a "regular" Woodpeckers ruler or square.

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 4177
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #49 on: May 31, 2020, 09:18 AM »
My 18" ruler just came in, and have already put it to use on some cabinet doors.  Up until now I have used the Incra 18" flexible ruler for repeat marking above 12" or occasionally a Woodpeckers 24" ruler with a rule stop, but the former can be a little unwieldy, especially if you don't have a continuous flat surface, and the latter doesn't allow you to mark all the way on the edge of a board, since the rule stop needs to register on both sides of the ruler, setting it a bit off the edge.

Now I just need to fabricate a tool holder to hang it.

 
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T 18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TID 18 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS-EC 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • AGC 18-115 • CT 26 w/BT module • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3 • STM 1800

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 645
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #50 on: May 31, 2020, 02:17 PM »
That's exactly what I have: 100mm for the double square and 300mm for the combination square. In the past I did consider a longer ruler for the combination square, but in the end decided I didn't need it. In those cases where I need a longer reference edge I just use a "regular" Woodpeckers ruler or square.

Thanks, that’s more or less my thoughts. The 4” can be a very versatile square, all my existing fails due to being too long. And with the 12” one can transfer with a ruler to extend.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 645
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #51 on: October 06, 2020, 01:10 PM »
Finally, today a 150mm double square arrived, actually from my regular Festool supplier.
This was a nice vehicle to be interrupted by outside when I’m occupied inside with work at “home office”..



And the hunt for double squares continues (Have enquired from Starrett.co.uk, but no answer yet, probably end up buying from Lee Valley)

Some photos below.
I noticed that the square had som real sharp edges on the casting.. even some finishing issues.
I’ll sand the edges ever so slightly with metal sanding paper to ease those knife like edges.
Another thing is that it seemed a half hair out of square in 100mm  [blink]

It is a very handy size and will live in my apron along with a 150mm Tajima SS ruler which came along at the same time today.







Tajima ruler, with a very handy scale on the flip side..
321557-4
321559-5
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 645
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #52 on: October 12, 2020, 06:02 PM »
I gave up getting more Starrett locally.
I made an inquiry with Axminster, and unfortunately they were not able to special order the items I wanted. Thanks a lot to Axminster for replying, great customer service. I did also send Starrett UK an email, but one week later I have not received an answer.

I ended up ordering from Lee Valley, a 150mm double square, and since the 100mm was on back order I justified UPS Express shipping with adding a premium 150mm combination square with forged head and (Pearl) chrome ruler.

So far so good, Lee Valley had excellent customer service, notifying me that they could not ship all batteries with the lights I ordered on the same order. Got the light shipped without dry cells, simple fix as AAA batteries is something I usually stock large quantities of  [big grin]
UPS delivered in three days, impressed. Box was perfect on arrival.

Then, opening the Starrett boxes, well.. the double squares handle had marks, appeared to be light corrosion on the edges, not especially fresh looking. Then the combination square, the special washer that has ears which fit in the grooves of the head jammed itself with the bolt as the hole and grooves for the tabs on the washer where off center of each other. Making it jam when unscrewing and push the nut to release the ruler. Not good.
I had to file the grooves wider in order to not let the washer jam the locking bolt.

You can see on the (poor smartphone 🙄) images below. See the one photo where the tabs are off center and touching the outer parts of the groove. The grooves themselves was much wider than on my other cast iron heads. It was really poor build quality and quality check.
Not what I expected on the “Premium” version  [blink]
Anyhow, both squares are now in full working order, and the double square I wet sanded with 1200 wet sanding paper, so it looks as it should in the first place.

Looking really forward to using these.
And @Cheese - Agreed: Somehow the cast heads seems nicer to hold. I just thought I might try a forged too. Next will be cast, with scriber - nice to have at hand with the square.
Thanks a lot for advising!  [smile]





“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7782
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #53 on: October 13, 2020, 11:00 AM »

Then, opening the Starrett boxes, well.. the double squares handle had marks, appeared to be light corrosion on the edges, not especially fresh looking. Then the combination square, the special washer that has ears which fit in the grooves of the head jammed itself with the bolt as the hole and grooves for the tabs on the washer where off center of each other. Making it jam when unscrewing and push the nut to release the ruler. Not good.
I had to file the grooves wider in order to not let the washer jam the locking bolt.

Not what I expected on the “Premium” version  [blink]
Anyhow, both squares are now in full working order, and the double square I wet sanded with 1200 wet sanding paper, so it looks as it should in the first place.

Looking really forward to using these.
And @Cheese - Agreed: Somehow the cast heads seems nicer to hold. I just thought I might try a forged too. Next will be cast, with scriber - nice to have at hand with the square.
Thanks a lot for advising!  [smile]


Hey @FestitaMakool
Glad you finally got the procurement issues sorted.  [smile]  I've always had great service from Lee Valley, a true North America gem. The shipping time is very impressive similar to the shipping I get from DLS on Festool items from Germany.

Sorry to hear about the quality issues, I know these items are still made in the USA so the QA issues are very disconcerting. [sad]

Here's something I ran across on Starrett squares that may be of interest.
https://www.starrett.com/docs/other-downloadable-resources/combination-square-insert---form-955.pdf?Status=Master

The first thing I noticed when I purchased the 13A & 13MA Double Squares is that the blade movement is not nearly as smooth as the Starrett Combination Squares. It reminds me of my 4" Mitutoyo, the blade is difficult to move and is scratchy rather than smooth. Difficult to sort as the Double Squares are only 2-3 years old and the Combination Squares are 20 & 25 years old. Maybe the parts just need to bed in?

Here's a shot of forged vs cast Combination heads.




Also notice the small divot that has been taken out of the post where the "lock bolt assembly" resides. What struck me is that for a forging, it seems to be extremely brittle and the metal has much larger grain structure than I would expect. If I didn't know better, I'd assume this was a cast head rather than a forged head. [tongue]




Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2099
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #54 on: October 13, 2020, 11:11 AM »

Sorry to hear about the quality issues, I know these items are still made in the USA so the QA issues are very disconcerting. [sad]


It happens. Depending on what it is, the origin of make seems to have slightly less relevance in quality these days. A few years ago, between a US and China-made BBQ stoves on display at a store, I picked the American one and paid more, but the grill had QC issue that the upper rack fell off when you opened the lid a few times. Previous non-American stoves had no such problem.

What's important when we shop is from whom. Its customer service is the gatekeeper when things go wrong.

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 645
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #55 on: October 14, 2020, 04:54 PM »
@Cheese
Thanks again for your insight  [smile]

Agree with you guys, customer service, and the willing to make a difference are important.
LV made my first order with them a very pleasant experience, so did Axminster. I need look no further. I’m hesitant to buy online, I buy over the counter whenever I can. But something, and especially specialist items are now more or less mandatory to find online (at least here).

The link you provided Cheese, it’s exactly the same that came in the set box in folded letter format. I thought it was a nice old fashioned way of presenting the tools.
Too bad these certificates not following all boxes, a bit picky, but..  (This could also easily be the boxes opened and the documents removed after leaving Starrett facilities)


The certificate in the photo was only found in the double square box. And to the contrary of your experience Cheese, my double 150mm double square was maybe the smoothest of them all. And after a check, maybe the absolute squarest too, along with the large combination square. Not implying that the others where out, but ever so slightly anyway. The 150mm cast combination square is also very smooth, more so than the forged. It helped the forged after filing the recessed areas for the washer. Note also the difference of the thickness on the side of these two in comparison to your larger squares. I’ve noted the weight in Lb in the photo as well. (The rulers themselves weigh the same)


I was surprised to see the coarseness in the grain as shoved in yours, 🤔
I’m anyhow very pleased with the Starrets, and would like to see more of these readily available here. They are sort of problem solvers and can be used for many applications. And I like the sheer weight [wink]
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7782
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #56 on: October 14, 2020, 11:50 PM »
Hey Festita...I just noticed the difference in sectional thicknesses between the cast and the forged versions.  [eek] [eek] [eek]

That's huge and then when you publish the weight differences between them that just punctuates the issue. For the exactly same sized tool to be 20% heavier/lighter just because of the manufacturing process, that's something to think about.

It's not a surprise per se to those that are cognizant of the importance of the subtlety of manufacturing issues, but it is a reminder that seemingly similar items can confuse folks into thinking that if it looks like "X" then it is the equivalent of "X"....that's not necessarily the truth.

So where's the scribe for the cast square...just using it as a tooth pick?  [poke]

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 645
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #57 on: October 15, 2020, 06:13 PM »
Well, Cheese, I did my very best to get the tooth pick to fit [poke]
But it won’t.. cause I got the “wrong” version..


There are indeed noticeable weight difference, the forged version feels more toy-ish in comparison. But if I’d had just the forged, maybe not. It feels solid.
That said, I don’t know if the regular 150/6” combination square WITH the tooth pick has the same thickness as my 10MH-150 “Student square” (I didn’t notice it was this version until I received it, it nevertheless look the same, minus the scriber.

I forgot to mention here that I also got this from Axminster: A really nice set...



“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7782
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #58 on: October 15, 2020, 07:44 PM »
Well Festita...you got me on that one, I never realized that Starrett produced a combo square without a scriber in the end...that surprises me.  [jawdrop]

I guess it kind of makes sense for the student version because I believe they offer it at a lesser price. However, that brings up the question then if on some of the other "Student" offerings from Starrett if there is also a feature or two that have been removed for pricing purposes.  [sad]  Maybe that's also the reason for some of the the poor finishing you experienced on the cast square?

Glad to see you got the centering head, I don't use it often but it's really slick for marking/finding centers on round stock.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2020, 06:39 PM by Cheese »

Offline BarneyD

  • Posts: 99
Re: Starrett combo square clarification please.
« Reply #59 on: October 15, 2020, 09:10 PM »
I was also surprised about the "student" version and the poor (IMHO) finish on it. I also didn't know that they made a student version.

I have that same combination set, 12 inch, forged, purchased 50 years ago when I first started in the machine shop. Just as accurate and useful today as it was then. I don't remember what I paid for it but I do remember that it was expensive. I've never regretted buying it. And I still use it all the time. Will be passed down to my boys when I'm gone. You'll enjoy it for many years, Festita.

Cheers,
Barney