Author Topic: Sliding Table Saw Advice  (Read 3202 times)

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Offline Climber39

  • Posts: 55
Sliding Table Saw Advice
« on: August 26, 2020, 11:00 AM »
I currently own a Sawstop ICS31230-52.  And it's got all the bells and whistles.  I love it. It's performed perfectly.  However,  last week I had the chance to use a friend's slider.  He has a nice Felder machine. So it's got me thinking of selling my saw,  and buying a slider.  I.I'm an engineer,  and don't do woodworking to earn a living. So unfortunately,  a Felder or Martin isn't in my budget. But the Grizzly and Shop Fox sliding saws are definitely within reach. I would appreciate any advice,  anyone can give me.  Would it be foolish to sell my Sawstop and buy one of the Grizzly or Shop Fox sliders? I realize of course that they won't have the exact same capabilites or rip capacity as the Felder i got to use. If anyone has any experience with the shop Fox or Grizzly sliders,  or even the Hammer saws,  I would greatly appreciate your input.  I'm trying not to make a bad decision. And I have looked at adding a Sawstop sliding table to my saw.  I just wasn't impressed with that setup.  Thanks in advance for any help you may be able to offer me. 

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Offline Lincoln

  • Posts: 95
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2020, 05:48 PM »
I'd actually consider the SawStop option. I come from 25 years of using various industrial sliders (Altendorf, SCM etc) and anytime I've used one of the cheaper 'home' sliders I've been disappointed and frustrated. I checked out the SawStop at a local dealer, that had the slider attached and was pretty impressed with it. Appeared to be well made and robust.

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2015
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2020, 05:53 PM »
If I were to move from the safest and one of the best cabinet saws money can buy to a slider, this would be the only option I'd consider:



I wouldn't get anything else not on par with the SawStop in terms of safety.

Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 3156
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2020, 06:14 PM »
That would be like going from a Mercedes to a Yugo.
Birdhunter

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 2207
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2020, 06:37 PM »
That would be like going from a Mercedes to a Yugo.
More like from apples to oranges...
Hammer K3 is in the same price range as SawStop ICS and it's no Yugo.
You can look at sliding table as a safety feature in itself.

Offline WestMan_Canada

  • Posts: 15
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2020, 07:24 PM »
Jess-em used to make a very high quality sliding table attachment that likely would have been perfect for your application on the Saw Stop TS.
It was called JessEm Mast-R-Slide 7500  -  I dont think its made any more.

Here is a link to a review
https://www.woodmagazine.com/review/saws/tablesaw-accessories/other-tablesaw-accessories/jessem-mast-r-slide-sliding-table

Offline vkumar

  • Posts: 524
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2020, 07:29 PM »
If I were to move from the safest and one of the best cabinet saws money can buy to a slider, this would be the only option I'd consider:



I wouldn't get anything else not on par with the SawStop in terms of safety.

If only this were available soon.Looks like it is years from availability and that too only in high end models,
Vijay Kumar

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2015
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2020, 07:37 PM »


If only this were available soon.Looks like it is years from availability and that too only in high end models,

Not sure about North America.

The patent-pending Safety Innovation PCS® is available as an option with the Format4 kappa 550 sliding table panel saw.... Start of distribution: 2nd quarter 2020.
https://www.felder-group.com/en-ca/pcs

Hobbyists may have to wait until the technology is implemented in the Hammer model.

Offline mwolczko

  • Posts: 57
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2020, 07:48 PM »
I was an early purchaser of a SawStop ICS (2004, right after they came out), and a big fan of sliders.  So, within a few years I’d added the Jessem slider.  The first one I got was not flat but Rockler exchanged it without question (kudos) and I’ve been a very happy user since then.  Every once in a while I think about swapping it out for the SS slider, but there’s always something else I want more  ;)
If I were doing it over, I’d get the SS slider, out feed and router tables (I built my own outfeed and added a router table extension).
-Mario

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 2207
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2020, 08:07 PM »
Sliders that attach to a regular cabinet saw are just over-sized miter gauges. They lack some useful functions, such as being able to straight edge stock, do tapers, etc. because they are not right next to the blade. This may or may not be important for a particular user, but definitely something to keep in mind.

Offline bijeshj

  • Posts: 195
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2020, 10:16 PM »
Owned the Hammer slider for about 10 years. Was a major step from a Dewalt portable, expensive since this is a hobby - but love it.

Offline derekcohen

  • Posts: 484
    • In The Woodshop
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2020, 10:56 AM »
I currently own a Sawstop ICS31230-52.  And it's got all the bells and whistles.  I love it. It's performed perfectly.  However,  last week I had the chance to use a friend's slider.  He has a nice Felder machine. So it's got me thinking of selling my saw,  and buying a slider.  I.I'm an engineer,  and don't do woodworking to earn a living. So unfortunately,  a Felder or Martin isn't in my budget. But the Grizzly and Shop Fox sliding saws are definitely within reach. I would appreciate any advice,  anyone can give me.  Would it be foolish to sell my Sawstop and buy one of the Grizzly or Shop Fox sliders? I realize of course that they won't have the exact same capabilites or rip capacity as the Felder i got to use. If anyone has any experience with the shop Fox or Grizzly sliders,  or even the Hammer saws,  I would greatly appreciate your input.  I'm trying not to make a bad decision. And I have looked at adding a Sawstop sliding table to my saw.  I just wasn't impressed with that setup.  Thanks in advance for any help you may be able to offer me.

I have a Hammer K3 slider. This one has a shorter wagon, at 49", but actually holds 53". Since I only work with hard wood, this is as big as I would want.



Prior to the K3, I had a tablesaw with a sliding table .... exactly the same set up as the Sawstop sliding table. Before making the K3 purchase, I was in fact going to get the Sawstop package. However, I did my research, and realised that they were two different animals.

One simple different, but so profound, is that the slider table on the SS runs about 12" from the blade, and the wagon on the K3 runs about 1/2". The SS set up is only for cross cuts. The K3 slider not only does cross cuts, but also rips.

What one needs to learn about European sliding saws is that the wagon is set up for ripping, as well as the other side of the saw, where there is a rip fence. Look up "Fritz and Frans jig" on YouTube.



So the SS is about safety? Well, so is the slider designed to be.

Do your own research. Would I go back and get the SS? Never!

Regards from Perth

Derek
Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on joinery, hand tools, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

Offline MaineShop

  • Posts: 60
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2020, 05:29 PM »
One of the shops I work in has a large altendorf f45 with the huge slider, I think the carrige is around 12 ft long or more. Digital controls on both the rip fence and the crosscut fence. Truely amazing machine. But when I make case goods in that shop I am always thinking to myself how much faster I am at it in my own shop where I mainy use the track saw for my sheet goods. Just because of the way I have my workflow set up for specifically that task. I also think about it every time I have to take a sheet and set it up onto the saw. Granted it takes it from there, but there is something to creating a proper workflow and bringing the tool to the material.

Offline rst

  • Posts: 2448
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2020, 07:56 AM »
I have a PM 66 that I attached a Jet sliding table.  Jet used to sell these as an aftermarket accessory.  It has an articulating arm and the table itself is about three feet wide, it was fairly narrow in depth so I added 8020 1040 to the front and back giving it an additional eight inches.  I used this for years to breakdown multiple sheets of plastics simultaneously.  I haven't used it for that since buying into Festool.   

Offline scbucc

  • Posts: 21
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2020, 09:13 AM »
For what its worth I don't come from years of working with high-end sliding saws.  I've had Jet cabinets saws for over a decade and rely mostly on Powermatic equipment and Festool at my shop and onsite.  For an upcoming project I recently picked up a Grizzly G0623X used for $1500 with some nice blades and accessories.  I'm pleasantly surprised by the quality.  I don't do a lot of work with sheet goods, so the small footprint is ideal for me.  I look at the slider as another tool similar to the TS 75. Its specific and convenient for certain tasks, and this saw can be acquired fairly cheaply.  A lot of people get into the compact sliders and grow out of the quickly, so the saws seem to be available often on the secondary market.  Of course it would be nice to have higher-end slider, but this is my first Grizzly, and I had concerns regarding the quality, but I'm impressed.  That said, I didn't buy the saw to replace my standard cabinet saw.
RO 150, TS 75, , BHC 18, RS 2, HL 850, DF 500, KS 120, ETS 150, T15, T12, MFT/3, OF 1400, VS 600, LHS 225, OS 400, DWC 18, BR 10, CT 36, CT 48, BOOM ARM 48, WCR 1000, Shaper ORIGIN, Apollo Precision 5, RISD, NU.

Offline MikeGE

  • Posts: 120
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2020, 11:26 AM »
When I designed my basement shop, I wanted the Hammer K3.  Unfortunately, the 120 day lead time was more than I wanted to wait, and the delivery, installation, and commissioning were my responsibility.  I would be notified when the saw was ready, then I had to make my own arrangements to pick it up and transport it.  While considering my options, since there are no cabinet saws available here, I found a local distributor for Altendorf, Martin, SCM, and Festool.  He also refurbished and sold used Felder, Martin, Altendorf, and SCM equipment.

I saw a new SCM SC2 Classic on the showroom floor and asked the salesman how long it would take to deliver a saw like this.  I was expecting a similar lead time as the Hammer while he checked on his computer.  He then asked if next week was acceptable, since his installer was on vacation and wouldn't be back until Monday.  The price included delivery, assembly, and commissioning, and the saw I would receive was the one on display.  We shook hands and I transferred the money the same day.

I will not be outgrowing this saw, since I don't have room for a larger saw to replace it.  I recently bought the Incra LS25 positioner to use on the sliding table in conjunction with the crosscut fence so I can rip up to 570mm wide boards on the sliding table.  Anything wider than that and I will use only the crosscut fence.  The Fritz and Franz jig is next on my list of accessories to make for the SC2.

Offline RussellS

  • Posts: 305
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2020, 03:14 PM »
One of the shops I work in has a large Altendorf f45 with the huge slider, I think the carriage is around 12 ft long or more. Digital controls on both the rip fence and the crosscut fence. Truly amazing machine. But when I make case goods in that shop I am always thinking to myself how much faster I am at it in my own shop where I mainly use the track saw for my sheet goods. Just because of the way I have my workflow set up for specifically that task. I also think about it every time I have to take a sheet and set it up onto the saw. Granted it takes it from there, but there is something to creating a proper workflow and bringing the tool to the material.

What you say makes sense.  In some, many situations, going with the smaller machinery is faster.  But with your Altendorf's, I bet they were used by stacking 4-6-8 sheets of plywood onto them at once and cutting all the sheets at once.  And they used the Altendorf to cut 100 sheets in one day, or half day.  So production was much faster with the Altendorf than the track saw.  But a home craftsman or custom maker is not making 100 of the same thing every day or week.  So the sliders may not be more productive.

A similar situation occurs in farming.  Everyone likes to look at the huge tractors and planters.  And for a contract farmer farming 5000 acres in huge mile square tracts, this machinery makes lots of sense.  Then there is my Dad.  Who has several farms spread over many miles.  All small 40-80-100 acre tracts.  With creeks running through them and odd shapes.  You might be lucky to even get the huge tractors and planters turned around in such areas.  So he needs different machinery than the huge farmers.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2020, 06:12 PM by RussellS »

Offline MaineShop

  • Posts: 60
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2020, 05:12 PM »
well in response to the comparison to the farmers and heavy equipment size. We only run one sheet at time through the attendorf in that shop actually most of the time. I mean I am sure we could do multiple but we are doing custom work and one off builds. it is not that often that we need multiples of many pieces. If we were doing a hundred sheets a day it would be with a large bed CNC not manually feeding through a saw.

Offline Tom Gensmer

  • Posts: 727
  • Residential Remodeler in Minnesota
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2020, 06:49 PM »
For what it's worth, I just took the plunge and ordered a Felder KF700S saw/shaper.

Among other specifications, the machine has a 3.2M (10') slider and runs on single phase power.

I spent a long time researching stationary saws, and like some of the above commenters I came to the conclusion that the SawStop with sliding table was definitely not for me. I've been processing a fair amount of 6/4 White Oak recently, and have grown weary of the limitations of handheld machinery in terms of straight-line ripping and processing of solid woods, and am finally ready to invest in a stationary saw. There is a cooperative shop nearby in Minneapolis where nearly every member has their own slider, everything from a pair of KF700 saws with 6' sliders, all the way up to an old Panhans with a 10' slider. There's a early (I think prototype) SawStop in the shop, apparently it's rarely used...

There's a lot to like about sliders, but the safety aspect is what really sold me. It's a different way of working compared to a traditional North American cabinet saw, but since I've been working with my Erika for the last several years I've been pretty well insulated from habits related to traditional cabinet saws. Opinions vary, but in theory just about any operation can be performed on a slider of sufficient length, in other words you may never really need the trip fence if you didn't want to use it that way.

It's just a different way of working and thinking.

I was originally looking at the Hammer machines (I also have a A3-41 and HS-950), but it really wasn't a huge jump to get into the Felder line, and they have multiple machine lines so it's pretty easy to get a machine that matches your budget. The Hammer K3 line looks nice, and if you get a shorter slider there are still ways to straight-line rip longer boards using a sled that indexes in the slider t-slot. Just remember that the Hammer and Felder accessories don't overlap, so if you think you'll really be using the machine a lot (even as a hobby) it's worth considering if you can stomach a smaller K500 or K700....

Something to consider is accessories. The Grizzly, Maksiwa, Laguna, and other machines are frequently going to come with a few more bells and whistles as compared with a comparably priced Hammer, but the Hammer will have a greater variety of accessories, which will allow you "grow" into your machine as your wants/needs change, whereas accessories for the other machines may need to be home-brewed. Either is fine, it just depends on what you're skilled at and how you enjoy spending your time.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2020, 06:59 PM by Tom Gensmer »
CT-MIDI, C-18, RO-150, RO-90, OF-1010, OF-1400, MFK-700, MFK-700EQ/B, EHL-65, DTS-400, LS-130, MFT/3 (x4), MFT/Kapex (x3), KA 65 Conturo, endless Systainers

Offline cider

  • Posts: 21
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2020, 10:02 AM »
From a fellow hobbyist:

I've never owned a Sawstop, but I think they make a beautiful saw.  I had one in my online cart a couple times, but somehow ended up with a Hammer B3.  Here are some random thoughts:

  • It took almost 6 months to get the machine.
  • There is an adjustment period, going from a traditional saw to a slider, but I haven't encountered any slider-specific limitations.  I also never felt frustrated while adjusting.
  • I find Fritz and Franz essential :)
  • I do miss a zero-clearance insert at times, but the scoring blade works as advertised.
  • Felder dado blades are shockingly expensive.  They work great, and double as a shaper cutter, but they do leave "wings".
  • I ended up giving away my old saw blades :(
  • I rarely use the rip fence, and I've only actually ripped with it a couple times.
  • It seems like it takes me a little longer to setup an operation, as compared to my old contractor saw, but the operation itself goes faster and "feels" much safer.
  • You've already got a great saw, but I almost laughed the first time I ripped some thick hardwood with a 12" blade on a powerful saw.
  • Note that on the Hammer (and maybe some lower-tier Felders?) you have to remove the scoring blade to use a 12" blade.
  • Unlike the Sawstop, there aren't any cool router table wings for the Hammer.
  • The Hammer eccentric clamp has some quirks, but I've finally come to terms with it.  I also use some Kreg self-adjustable ones.
  • My slider can accommodate 5'x5', but not 4'x8', so I use a tracksaw for the initial cut on full sheets (rather than the rip fence).
  • I have both the crosscut fence and an outrigger, and I would have been disappointed had I not got the outrigger.

I'm certain I'd be happy with a Sawstop too, but if I had the chance to do it over, I'd get the Hammer again.

Offline Tom Gensmer

  • Posts: 727
  • Residential Remodeler in Minnesota
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2020, 03:34 PM »
Following up on Cider's comment about no router table in the Hammer/Felder machines, I'll include the comment that there is an option for an integrated shaper, with the option of including a router spindle. I ordered my KF700 with a 1-1/4" shaper spindle, as well as a router spindle with 1/2" and 1/4" collets. The Hammer B3 machines have an integrated shaper with multiple, swappable spindle options.

The benefit of the KF500/KF700 and B3 machines is that the shaper/router also uses the sliding table, making for easier work on end grain joinery.....

« Last Edit: August 29, 2020, 03:47 PM by Tom Gensmer »
CT-MIDI, C-18, RO-150, RO-90, OF-1010, OF-1400, MFK-700, MFK-700EQ/B, EHL-65, DTS-400, LS-130, MFT/3 (x4), MFT/Kapex (x3), KA 65 Conturo, endless Systainers

Offline cider

  • Posts: 21
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2020, 05:08 PM »
I never bothered with the router spindle since it’s limited to 10k rpm, but the shaper is a joy to use :)

Offline RussellS

  • Posts: 305
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2020, 06:10 PM »
  • I rarely use the rip fence, and I've only actually ripped with it a couple times.

This seems odd to me.  How would having a slider reduce, eliminate the need to rip wood?  For instance, making a kitchen cupboards with rail and stile cabinets and raised panel doors.  You need a hundred feet or more of 2 inch wide strips for the rails, stiles, doors, etc.  So you use the slider to straight line rip one edge of every piece or hardwood you are using.  Get the nice straight line so you can run it against the rip fence to make many strips that are 2 inch wide.  A 10 inch wide board would be run against the rip fence about 4 times.  And you would end up with 32 feet of 2 inch wide strips if the board is 8 feet long.  Do that 3-4 times with boards to get to the 100+ feet of 2 inch strips you need for the kitchen.  Lot of ripping it seems to me.  Regardless whether you have the slider or not.

Offline cider

  • Posts: 21
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2020, 06:19 PM »
It’s my bad communication skills. I still rip, but on the slider instead of the rip fence.

Offline Tom Gensmer

  • Posts: 727
  • Residential Remodeler in Minnesota
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2020, 06:37 PM »
  • I rarely use the rip fence, and I've only actually ripped with it a couple times.

This seems odd to me.  How would having a slider reduce, eliminate the need to rip wood?  For instance, making a kitchen cupboards with rail and stile cabinets and raised panel doors.  You need a hundred feet or more of 2 inch wide strips for the rails, stiles, doors, etc.  So you use the slider to straight line rip one edge of every piece or hardwood you are using.  Get the nice straight line so you can run it against the rip fence to make many strips that are 2 inch wide.  A 10 inch wide board would be run against the rip fence about 4 times.  And you would end up with 32 feet of 2 inch wide strips if the board is 8 feet long.  Do that 3-4 times with boards to get to the 100+ feet of 2 inch strips you need for the kitchen.  Lot of ripping it seems to me.  Regardless whether you have the slider or not.

Many sliders have an auxiliary parallel attachment for the slider so you can make parallel rips on the slider, instead of using the rip fence. So, the “keeper” is ripped on the slider, and the excess is on the far side. So, in terms of safety, the user is standing perpendicular to the blade (reduced risk of kickback injury), and if you’re using clamps you never have to get your fingers anywhere near the blade.

See example at 3:00



With shorter sliders, long boards can still be straight line ripped using a sled that rides in the slider t-slot.

Again, some guys with sliders still use the fence for certain ripping operations, others only use the rip fence as a bump stop for repeat cross cuts.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2020, 06:41 PM by Tom Gensmer »
CT-MIDI, C-18, RO-150, RO-90, OF-1010, OF-1400, MFK-700, MFK-700EQ/B, EHL-65, DTS-400, LS-130, MFT/3 (x4), MFT/Kapex (x3), KA 65 Conturo, endless Systainers

Offline Picktool

  • Posts: 144
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2020, 10:15 PM »
From a fellow hobbyist:

I've never owned a Sawstop, but I think they make a beautiful saw.  I had one in my online cart a couple times, but somehow ended up with a Hammer B3.  Here are some random thoughts:

  • I do miss a zero-clearance insert at times, but the scoring blade works as advertised.

Ramon Valdez has a ZCI for Hammer K3 so not sure if it fits the B3 (same model no?)
Well Dogey

Offline Tom Gensmer

  • Posts: 727
  • Residential Remodeler in Minnesota
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2020, 10:10 AM »
I never bothered with the router spindle since it’s limited to 10k rpm, but the shaper is a joy to use :)

Ah yes, that makes sense on the Hammer since the swap is only at the top.



 On my KF700 the entire spindle is swapped, so the router spindle get 15,000 rpm. I received my first batch of shaper tooling from Rangate a few weeks ago, looking forward to putting it to work this Winter.....
« Last Edit: August 30, 2020, 10:12 AM by Tom Gensmer »
CT-MIDI, C-18, RO-150, RO-90, OF-1010, OF-1400, MFK-700, MFK-700EQ/B, EHL-65, DTS-400, LS-130, MFT/3 (x4), MFT/Kapex (x3), KA 65 Conturo, endless Systainers

Offline cider

  • Posts: 21
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2020, 12:39 PM »
Ramon Valdez has a ZCI for Hammer K3 so not sure if it fits the B3 (same model no?)

Hey, cool link--thanks!  I have one of these for the dado blade, but it's expensive, and I thought it might be too floppy if I cut a slot for the splitter.

On my KF700 the entire spindle is swapped, so the router spindle get 15,000 rpm. I received my first batch of shaper tooling from Rangate a few weeks ago, looking forward to putting it to work this Winter.....

Lucky!  Of course that spindle costs nearly as much as an OF2200  :-X

I don't have much shaper tooling yet, but I just used a Rangate shear rabbet two nights ago with the spindle tilted (love that feature) and it was so smooth I did a double-take to make sure it was actually cutting.

Offline MikeGE

  • Posts: 120
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2020, 01:33 PM »
Many sliders have an auxiliary parallel attachment for the slider so you can make parallel rips on the slider, instead of using the rip fence. So, the “keeper” is ripped on the slider, and the excess is on the far side. So, in terms of safety, the user is standing perpendicular to the blade (reduced risk of kickback injury), and if you’re using clamps you never have to get your fingers anywhere near the blade.

Here are a couple of images for my work in progress.  This is the Minimax SC2 Classic with an Incra LS25 positioner attached to one of the auxiliary tables.  I can set the distance on the Incra up to 570mm from the left side of the blade.  Any more than that, and I'll use only the crosscut fence.  The auxiliary table attaches to the sliding sled at the side and can slide along the length of the sled.





This is what ripping a narrow board would like like using the LS25 as a second reference point.  This is only a simulation, and I attached a spare Woodpeckers T-track to the positioner for display only.  The final version will have a different piece of extruded aluminum, a sacrificial board, and a stop block.




Offline Svar

  • Posts: 2207
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2020, 01:40 PM »
Ramon Valdez has a ZCI for Hammer K3 so not sure if it fits the B3 (same model no?)
Hey, cool link--thanks!  I have one of these for the dado blade, but it's expensive, and I thought it might be too floppy if I cut a slot for the splitter.
Marius Hornberger (Youtube) made one too. Would be nice to add something to the sliding table, just like one on track saw rail.

Offline Tom Gensmer

  • Posts: 727
  • Residential Remodeler in Minnesota
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2020, 02:05 PM »
Nice work MikeGE!

The parallel rip assembly is available for a variety of machines from Lamb Toolworks. The round end allows for repeat tapered rips.

https://lambtoolworks.com/parallel-fences
CT-MIDI, C-18, RO-150, RO-90, OF-1010, OF-1400, MFK-700, MFK-700EQ/B, EHL-65, DTS-400, LS-130, MFT/3 (x4), MFT/Kapex (x3), KA 65 Conturo, endless Systainers

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline MikeGE

  • Posts: 120
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2020, 02:26 PM »
Hi Tom, I'm familiar with the Lamb Toolworks products, and they are impressive.  However, the Incra LS25 and auxiliary table combined was about half the cost of the analog positioner from Lamb Toolworks.

Offline derekcohen

  • Posts: 484
    • In The Woodshop
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2020, 07:59 PM »
Ramon Valdez has a ZCI for Hammer K3 so not sure if it fits the B3 (same model no?)
Hey, cool link--thanks!  I have one of these for the dado blade, but it's expensive, and I thought it might be too floppy if I cut a slot for the splitter.
Marius Hornberger (Youtube) made one too. Would be nice to add something to the sliding table, just like one on track saw rail.

I converted a standard dado insert by inlaying an aluminium strip along the inside.











Regards from Perth

Derek
Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on joinery, hand tools, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

Offline cider

  • Posts: 21
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2020, 10:26 AM »
Slick!  IIRC, you have a custom router table solution too?

Offline derekcohen

  • Posts: 484
    • In The Woodshop
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2020, 01:12 PM »
Slick!  IIRC, you have a custom router table solution too?

I am not sure if you are referring to my K3, but I actually am in the process of rebuilding the router table in its outfeed ...

This is how the outfeed looked in original shape ...



This is how the re-built router table ...





This has a router lift and above table bit changing.

I am in the process of building a new fence.

Regards from Perth

Derek
Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on joinery, hand tools, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

Offline Climber39

  • Posts: 55
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2020, 02:48 PM »
Wow,  that's a lot of info to digest.  You guys here on FOG never disappoint.  The amount of knowledge and experience here is simply staggering.  I want to thank everyone that took the time to weigh in on my questions. It would seem that a  majority think going to a lower end saw,  just to get a sliding table,  would not be a wise move. After reading some of your responses,  I think in agree. In light of that,  I'm leaning towards giving the Sawstop sliding table a try... And of course I'll continue to save up (or at least attempt to) until i can afford a good slider.  I'm going to check around on FOG to see if anyone has done a comparison of the 2 different sliding tables that Sawstop offers.  Thanks again for all the info.  I really appreciate everyone's time.

Offline RussellS

  • Posts: 305
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2020, 03:13 PM »
Wow,  that's a lot of info to digest.  You guys here on FOG never disappoint.  The amount of knowledge and experience here is simply staggering.  I want to thank everyone that took the time to weigh in on my questions. It would seem that a  majority think going to a lower end saw,  just to get a sliding table,  would not be a wise move. After reading some of your responses,  I think in agree. In light of that,  I'm leaning towards giving the Sawstop sliding table a try... And of course I'll continue to save up (or at least attempt to) until i can afford a good slider.  I'm going to check around on FOG to see if anyone has done a comparison of the 2 different sliding tables that Sawstop offers.  Thanks again for all the info.  I really appreciate everyone's time.


?????????   Hmmmm.  I got the exact opposite opinion from reading the posts in this thread.  A vast majority thought the sliding table on the Hammer was far far far superior to the SawStop sliding table and that the Hammer slider far outweighed the safety feature of the SawStop itself.  So get the superior Hammer sliding table over getting the SawStop safety feature and its inferior sliding table.

Offline cider

  • Posts: 21
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2020, 04:17 PM »
I can only speak for myself, but I don’t find the Hammer “far” superior, but it is my preference. I respect Sawstop’s safety features, but a slider can also be used more safely than a traditional (non-Sawstop) saw.

To be more direct, if I were the OP, and I really wanted a slider, I’d get a euro-style one. Otherwise I’d keep and enjoy a really nice cabinet saw :)

Offline Lbob131

  • Posts: 499
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2020, 05:07 PM »
I have  the Hammer  C3 31   combination machine.
It has a 2.5m   slider.

One  of the jobs I do quite  often is  slice  2.4m  plywood  into  narrow  strips.
And  these  are  my findings....
With a  cabinet  saw  the  accuracy  quickly   deteriorates.
With  my  festool  track saw, it has  reasonable  accuracy  but  is  time  consuming.
With my  standard   (skil)  circular  saw  using the  fence  guide   it  has  reasonable  accuracy  and  reasonable  speed.

With  the slider  it is  fast  and  accurate.
So I would class  the slider as  superior   to all the other  options.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2020, 05:12 PM by Lbob131 »

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2015
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2020, 05:32 PM »
To be more direct, if I were the OP, and I really wanted a slider, I’d get a euro-style one. Otherwise I’d keep and enjoy a really nice cabinet saw :)

The most objective comment I find in this whole thread. [thumbs up]

Offline derekcohen

  • Posts: 484
    • In The Woodshop
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #40 on: September 02, 2020, 09:32 AM »
Wow,  that's a lot of info to digest.  You guys here on FOG never disappoint.  The amount of knowledge and experience here is simply staggering.  I want to thank everyone that took the time to weigh in on my questions. It would seem that a  majority think going to a lower end saw,  just to get a sliding table,  would not be a wise move. After reading some of your responses,  I think in agree. In light of that,  I'm leaning towards giving the Sawstop sliding table a try... And of course I'll continue to save up (or at least attempt to) until i can afford a good slider.  I'm going to check around on FOG to see if anyone has done a comparison of the 2 different sliding tables that Sawstop offers.  Thanks again for all the info.  I really appreciate everyone's time.



?????????   Hmmmm.  I got the exact opposite opinion from reading the posts in this thread.  A vast majority thought the sliding table on the Hammer was far far far superior to the SawStop sliding table and that the Hammer slider far outweighed the safety feature of the SawStop itself.  So get the superior Hammer sliding table over getting the SawStop safety feature and its inferior sliding table.


Agreed. The SawStop sliding table is designed for crosscuts. It is not the same concept as a slider table saw, where the wagon does both crosscuts and ripping. Further, the edge of the table on the SS is quite far from the blade, while the slider is about 1/2" off the blade, and this increases precision and control in saw cuts. There is no way the SS is in the same league as my Hammer K3. I had these two saws side-by-side for a while, and came away with the K3. I would not change this decision 3 years down the track.

Regards from Perth

Derek
« Last Edit: September 04, 2020, 09:56 AM by derekcohen »
Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on joinery, hand tools, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2015
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #41 on: September 04, 2020, 12:30 AM »
Some people think the sliding table saw is safe enough (not me. I don't think they can match the SawStop in terms of its finger-saving feature), but apparently some sliding saw manufacturers don't think so either. Apart from Felder's PCS, Altendorf is soon to release another kind of finger-saving system:



Like the PCS, no parts are damaged.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2020, 12:35 AM by ChuckM »

Offline MikeGE

  • Posts: 120
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #42 on: September 04, 2020, 03:19 AM »
Some people think the sliding table saw is safe enough (not me. I don't think they can match the SawStop in terms of its finger-saving feature), but apparently some sliding saw manufacturers don't think so either. Apart from Felder's PCS, Altendorf is soon to release another kind of finger-saving system:

Like the PCS, no parts are damaged.
Unfortunately, you can't fix stupid.  One of the mechanical engineers where I used to work had two plaques over his desk with "Never design anything to be foolproof.  Fools are ingenious." and "If you design it to be idiot-proof, someone will make a better idiot."
I've been out of touch in what's available in Germany, but I wouldn't be surprised if these products are for the U.S. market.

Offline kcufstoidi

  • Posts: 919
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #43 on: September 04, 2020, 08:05 AM »
Once Festool/Sawstop patents runout in a couple of years there will be a free for all once China ramps up production. Since they already produce the SawStopfor said company, they have everything they need. These unicorns produced by Felder and others are basically unobtainium for anyone without extremely deep pockets if they're even in production. Will that tech trickle down to lessor machines in there line will yet to be seen. I'll stick with my Felder K700SP and happily make cuts all day safely with my fingers far away from the blade and no awkward kickback situations inheritant with every non slider cabinet saw.

Offline Climber39

  • Posts: 55
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #44 on: September 04, 2020, 08:53 AM »
Once Festool/Sawstop patents runout in a couple of years there will be a free for all once China ramps up production. Since they already produce the SawStopfor said company, they have everything they need. These unicorns produced by Felder and others are basically unobtainium for anyone without extremely deep pockets if they're even in production. Will that tech trickle down to lessor machines in there line will yet to be seen. I'll stick with my Felder K700SP and happily make cuts all day safely with my fingers far away from the blade and no awkward kickback situations inheritant with every non slider cabinet saw.

That was essentially my argument to my wife regarding the lack of any blade stopping tech on any of the sliders.  I have virtually zero experience with sliders. But from what I saw that one day I got to use one, is that the safety issue is somewhat negated. You're just not interacting with the blade in the same way that you are with a cabinet saw. And while I would love to have my Sawstop and a nice slider, that's just not in the cards financially.  And given the fact that I'm only a hobbyist,  the price tag on a really good slider almost puts it out of reach for the moment.  I think the best I can do for now,  is get the SS attachment,  Keep working, keep saving, and keep trying to sell my SS. Some of The Minimax and Hammer models are theoretically within reach...barely.
So hey,  if anyone is interested in a Sawstop ICS that's less than a year old and in pristine condition,  PM. Maybe we can work something out.  I'm in the Birmingham, Alabama area.  And we have a Kombi lift at our house. So safely loading up the saw would not be an issue.  And of anyone has a good slider that they would be interested in trading for a loaded Sawstop ICS31230-52,  please let me know. 

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2015
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #45 on: September 04, 2020, 10:00 AM »

I've been out of touch in what's available in Germany, but I wouldn't be surprised if these products are for the U.S. market.
According to this, both the EU and the US (and Canadian?) markets will be covered:

https://www.woodshopnews.com/tools-machines/altendorfs-hand-guard-gets-closer-to-market

Ultimately, how successful such or similar technology will become is dependent on the market (and/or regulatory changes). The SawStop cabinet saws are now commonly accepted by those who have the budget and want one of them. Once all the SawStop key patents expire, we can expect in time that all major saw makers will produce and sell theirs with a similar safety feature.

I heard somewhere that other table saw brands have already produced prototypes and been looking at various ways to cut costs and improve their approaches. So some of them may not be direct copies of the SawStop. Those are still trade secrets of course. Competition and R&D investments like that will be beneficial to consumers.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2020, 10:41 AM by ChuckM »

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2015
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #46 on: September 04, 2020, 11:30 AM »
Once Festool/Sawstop patents runout in a couple of years there will be a free for all once China ramps up production. Since they already produce the SawStopfor said company, they have everything they need.
Snip.

For the record, SawStop has its plant based in Taiwan. As far as I know, Made in Taiwan and Made in China products are not considered the same by the authorities when goods are imported.

The finger-saving feature is only one part of the equation when it comes to table saw performance and quality. It remains to be seen how other cabinet saw brands will compete with SawStop in the areas of price and sawing performance (precision and accuracy) after the patents expire, as well as how SawStop will respond to the market changes (lowering their prices is one possible scenario). Healthy competition is a good thing.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2020, 11:34 AM by ChuckM »

Offline kcufstoidi

  • Posts: 919
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #47 on: September 04, 2020, 03:58 PM »
May find this interesting. Geetech does Sawstop and has manufacturing in China. China and the UN both consider Tiawan to be part of China.




Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2015
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #48 on: September 04, 2020, 04:07 PM »
May find this interesting. Geetech does Sawstop and has manufacturing in China. China and the UN both consider Tiawan to be part of China.


Partnership has no relationship to origins whatsoever...and that's common knowledge.

Unless and until it has changed: "Every table saw is built in Taiwan to an unmatched set of tolerances."
https://www.acmetools.com/blog/getting-know-sawstop/

If Bridge City Tools established a strategic partnership with Harvey instead of being purchased by Harvey, that wouldn't automatically mean that BCT Tools were made in China, or that Harvey's were made in the US.

Some people may, but I myself know of no woodworkers here who consider a machine made in Taiwan being the same as one made in China. This is not to say one is necessarily better than the other. Most cordless drills and most bench and floor machines are made in China, and many of them are great value.

But proper labeling is a serious matter. For example, food made in China cannot be labelled as made in Taiwan for sale here in Canada legally regardless of what the UN says. In various magazine tool reviews I came across, they assigned "T" for Taiwan, "C" for China, "M" for Mexico, etc. in the column for origin. Readers wanted to know the difference.

The US has different tax treatments on those two origins, too; higher for goods made in China.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2020, 04:33 PM by ChuckM »

Offline kcufstoidi

  • Posts: 919
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #49 on: September 04, 2020, 10:35 PM »
I would suggest you do a little more research and understand these company/country relationships a lot better instead of spewing gibberish. You can believe whatever marketing BS you want as most Sawstop zealots do.

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2015
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #50 on: September 04, 2020, 11:19 PM »
I'm least surprised by your general call for me to do more "research" when you have little else to present. By the way, the point of discussion is about the origin that "Made in Taiwan"and "Made in China" are not the same, not about SawStop per se.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2020, 11:33 PM by ChuckM »

Offline derekcohen

  • Posts: 484
    • In The Woodshop
Re: Sliding Table Saw Advice
« Reply #51 on: September 05, 2020, 12:25 AM »
I have two computerised machine, both from Nova: the Saturn lathe and the Voyager drill. Both are excellent, and have a great reputation for being reliable. That latter aspect still makes me nervous however. Call me a control freak, but I do not want a machine that succumbs to the ageing process, or needs specialist electrical input because a minor adjustment is made (I am 70, so these machines just need to last 20 years, which I reckon they will). The issue, nonetheless, is one of several factors that helped me choose a Hammer K3 over a SS. I had, and continue to read, stories of the cartridge firing off because of the wood being slightly wet, or a blade being changed. The unpredictability of the SS remains my concern. One of the positives of the K3 is peace of mind in regard to down time.

Machines scare me, in spite of using them for more than 3 decades. I respect their power, and I take every precaution to abide by the rules of safety. In the long run, I believe that this is a healthier learning experience and training ground than believing that there is no need to be obsessively cautious. SS sell a good promotion on safety. They are right to do so. However, there is a broader canvas here than they paint.

Regards from Perth

Derek
« Last Edit: September 05, 2020, 03:05 AM by derekcohen »
Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on joinery, hand tools, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.