Author Topic: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?  (Read 5731 times)

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Offline _pwawmo_

  • Posts: 5
I've been following the shaper origin's journey to market for a while and now it's finally arrived in europe and I'm in a position to spend a bit of money to get some much needed cnc capabilities in my workshop... I really like the look of the shaper, for how straight forward it seems and for it's lack of footprint in the workshop. My other option is an entry level gantry cnc for a similar price - around £3100.

It seems fairly difficult to get an idea of how successfully people are using the shaper in a professional workshop setting. A lot of the reviews seem to be just explaining how the tool works (because it's neat and interesting in itself), or from where people with a good instagram following who have been 'lent' the origin from shaper for them to try out (and show off) ... What I'd really like is an unbiased opinion of someone using it for professional work and how they are getting on with it. My main interest would be for accurate jig making.

My biggest concern is accuracy, and there seems to be little info on this regarding actual numbers. Shapers website states...
Quote
'With a small amount of practice, you are actually able to achieve cuts far greater than within 1/100th of an inch using Origin. But we’ve decided to state that number as a more generally achievable range to help bound the conversation.'

This is really vague - and 1/100th of an inch (0.25mm) isn't so great IMO..  To add to the confusion further popularwoodworking did a review stating with regards to accuracy...
Quote
'In situations with tight tolerances, like joinery where .001” matters, the Origin does quite well. Measured accuracy from 12” to 36” is .02”-.05”, from 4’ to 6’, .08”-.18”. Repeatability — important in real-world CNC use, is about .01”.'

0.001” (0.025mm) is a really good tolerance for any woodworking machine, but they fully contradict this with the numbers they actually report which are pretty poor and don't make too much sense either. So it's hard to get an idea of what to actually expect from the shaper. I'd really like to know what sort of accuracy tolerances I should expect repeatably once i've gotten reasonably good at using the shaper? If anyone has any info or experience here, that'd be really helpful..

Sorry for rambling on but if anyone has got a shaper and uses it professionally (or not) I'd really like to hear how you're getting on generally, but also specifically regarding accuracy..

Thanks
« Last Edit: June 12, 2020, 04:14 PM by _pwawmo_ »

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Offline bkharman

  • Posts: 2074
Re: Shaper origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2020, 03:12 PM »
.001” is less than the wood itself moves. A slight change in humidity, and you also eat that up.

Here is an inlay and words I did recently.



I am not a professional tradesman, but I have more than gotten my money back with my SO.

Cheers. Bryan.


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People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?

Offline _pwawmo_

  • Posts: 5
Re: Shaper origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2020, 03:23 PM »
to be clear - 0.001" (1/1000) / (0.025mm) is great, and a really good tolerance for any woodworking machine. dial that up by 10 to 0.01" / 0.25mm (like it says on their website) and that's really not so amazing especially for accurate jig work, although i don't doubt just fine for decorative text inlays etc...

I realise they said 0.001" in the popularwoodworking review but then they followed it up with a lot of numbers that totally contradicted that!
« Last Edit: June 12, 2020, 03:47 PM by _pwawmo_ »

Offline bkharman

  • Posts: 2074
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2020, 04:12 PM »
to be clear - 0.001" (1/1000) / (0.025mm) is great, and a really good tolerance for any woodworking machine. dial that up by 10 to 0.01" / 0.25mm (like it says on their website) and that's really not so amazing especially for accurate jig work, although i don't doubt just fine for decorative text inlays etc...

I realise they said 0.001" in the popularwoodworking review but then they followed it up with a lot of numbers that totally contradicted that!
What are you trying to accomplish with it? 

Cheers. Bryan.


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People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?

Offline _pwawmo_

  • Posts: 5
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2020, 04:22 PM »
I really just want to have CNC capability in my workshop, mainly for accurate jig making, or templates, or whatever else it comes in handy for. But ultimately it's utility would be relative to it's accuracy..

Offline HarveyWildes

  • Posts: 950
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2020, 06:01 PM »
...  To add to the confusion further popular woodworking did a review stating with regards to accuracy...
Quote
'In situations with tight tolerances, like joinery where .001” matters, the Origin does quite well. Measured accuracy from 12” to 36” is .02”-.05”, from 4’ to 6’, .08”-.18”. Repeatability — important in real-world CNC use, is about .01”.'


I don't own one, but it sounds like the popular woodworking numbers are based on actual measured performance.  I don't think that .08 to .18 over 4'-6' is impressive in the CNC world, so if your jigs will be that size, you might consider alternatives.  The problem is that a flatbed CNC that will handle workpieces that size will set you back well over £3100, at least one from a company with a reputation for precision.  You could consider making one yourself, but then you are stuck with whatever you are capable of making.  In general, I think the appeal of the Shaper is that it is theoretically capable of handling an arbitrary size.


In the area of Colorado where I live, there are several "maker workshops" with very reasonable membership fees.  A membership allows unlimited use of CNC machines, laser engravers, and 3-D printers as well as woodworking and metal working tools.  The one that I've visited has a 4'x8' flatbed CNC machine, and I've only seen it in use once.  Users are responsible for consumables including bits, and the machines are maintained cooperatively.  It would be worth investigating a bit to see if you have something like that near you.  (https://lovelandcreatorspace.com/)

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 1743
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2020, 07:14 PM »
What keeps me from buying a Shaper Origin is their https://www.shapertools.com/de-de/terms#tc as of 26. September 2018 which with
Quote
2. Our License to you. Subject to these Terms of Service, we give you a limited, nonexclusive, nontransferable, revocable license to use the Sites, Services, and Products. [...] Shaper may limit your access to any Site, Service, or Product in its sole discretion.
states that you are unable to legally transfer ownership (as you're not able to transfer the license to use the build-in software) and access to something you paid for can be taken from you on a whim without even giving you a reason.

TL;DR: the moment your use case for Shaper Origin ends that thing has scrap value at best, sooner in case they unilaterally decide to turn it off.

Compare that to
Quote
(a) License to Shaper.  You give Shaper (and those trusted third parties we work with) a non-exclusive, royalty-free, transferable, sublicensable, worldwide license to use, use, store, display, reproduce, save, modify, create derivative works, perform, and distribute your User Content solely for the purposes of operating, providing, improving, and developing the Shaper Sites, Services, and Products. When you post content to a public or shared space in the Sites, Services, or Products, such as our Community Forum, you also grant Shaper a royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, unrestricted, worldwide license to reproduce, prepare derivative works, distribute copies, perform, or publicly display your User Content in any medium and for any purpose, including commercial purposes.
where you have no recourse or way to stop them from making money of your designs should they decide to. Please note that using the cloud feature of the shaper origin (eg. loading a shape into it via their website) technically is as case of  When you post content to a public or shared space in the Sites, Services, or Products, giving them the right to rip-off legally use your IP in any medium and for any purpose, including commercial.

TL;DR: what you upload to their cloud platform (even in your own partition) is no longer yours.

Then we have
Quote
17. Modification of these Terms of Service. These Terms of Service are subject to occasional change or update. Whenever the Terms of Service are materially changed, we will notify you, and the change will take effect 30 calendar days after notice is posted for existing users and immediately for new users. You are responsible for keeping your contact information up to date if you wish to receive notice of these changes. If you do not want to be subject to any changes in these Terms of Service, you must discontinue using our Services and Products before the change takes place. Continued use will serve as an acceptance of the changed Terms of Service

which basically codifies that they can change the ToS to turn your shaper origin into a pay-per-use device, grant them ius primae noctis or whatever else evil things one can come up with... and the moment you turn on your (*sig*) shaper origin the next time you agree to let them charge your VISA per mm routed, to bend over and relax or comply with whatever else they might come up with. And in case you're not agreeing you, as of the first quote, only have the option to scrap the machine as you're legally unable to sell it as fit for the original purpose since you can not transfer the software license...

TL;DR: you have no rights.

I have pointed that out to them, politely, 3 months ago, together with a list of other things incompatible with how things work here in Europe. While they have used the last three months to change some of the (for them) worst things that I found with their offering... the issue of their ToS is still as-is. Having given them enough time (akin to responsible disclosure) to change this without effect... it's IMHO now reasonable to voice my dispraise for their terms of service and to advise others against spending money on a device that you will not own, a device that can be stopped to function without reason or notice, a device that when used in the advertised use scenario (while it's still functioning) will steal transfer the rights to your designs to someone else without compensation.

________________________________________________________________________
The terms of service of ShaperTools are unacceptable and should not be accepted.
As of that Shaper Origin is, while things stay that way, not worth it.

Offline bkharman

  • Posts: 2074
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2020, 07:29 PM »
What keeps me from buying a Shaper Origin is their https://www.shapertools.com/de-de/terms#tc as of 26. September 2018 which with
Quote
2. Our License to you. Subject to these Terms of Service, we give you a limited, nonexclusive, nontransferable, revocable license to use the Sites, Services, and Products. [...] Shaper may limit your access to any Site, Service, or Product in its sole discretion.
states that you are unable to legally transfer ownership (as you're not able to transfer the license to use the build-in software) and access to something you paid for can be taken from you on a whim without even giving you a reason.

TL;DR: the moment your use case for Shaper Origin ends that thing has scrap value at best, sooner in case they unilaterally decide to turn it off.

Compare that to
Quote
(a) License to Shaper.  You give Shaper (and those trusted third parties we work with) a non-exclusive, royalty-free, transferable, sublicensable, worldwide license to use, use, store, display, reproduce, save, modify, create derivative works, perform, and distribute your User Content solely for the purposes of operating, providing, improving, and developing the Shaper Sites, Services, and Products. When you post content to a public or shared space in the Sites, Services, or Products, such as our Community Forum, you also grant Shaper a royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, unrestricted, worldwide license to reproduce, prepare derivative works, distribute copies, perform, or publicly display your User Content in any medium and for any purpose, including commercial purposes.
where you have no recourse or way to stop them from making money of your designs should they decide to. Please note that using the cloud feature of the shaper origin (eg. loading a shape into it via their website) technically is as case of  When you post content to a public or shared space in the Sites, Services, or Products, giving them the right to rip-off legally use your IP in any medium and for any purpose, including commercial.

TL;DR: what you upload to their cloud platform (even in your own partition) is no longer yours.

Then we have
Quote
17. Modification of these Terms of Service. These Terms of Service are subject to occasional change or update. Whenever the Terms of Service are materially changed, we will notify you, and the change will take effect 30 calendar days after notice is posted for existing users and immediately for new users. You are responsible for keeping your contact information up to date if you wish to receive notice of these changes. If you do not want to be subject to any changes in these Terms of Service, you must discontinue using our Services and Products before the change takes place. Continued use will serve as an acceptance of the changed Terms of Service

which basically codifies that they can change the ToS to turn your shaper origin into a pay-per-use device, grant them ius primae noctis or whatever else evil things one can come up with... and the moment you turn on your (*sig*) shaper origin the next time you agree to let them charge your VISA per mm routed, to bend over and relax or comply with whatever else they might come up with. And in case you're not agreeing you, as of the first quote, only have the option to scrap the machine as you're legally unable to sell it as fit for the original purpose since you can not transfer the software license...

TL;DR: you have no rights.

I have pointed that out to them, politely, 3 months ago, together with a list of other things incompatible with how things work here in Europe. While they have used the last three months to change some of the (for them) worst things that I found with their offering... the issue of their ToS is still as-is. Having given them enough time (akin to responsible disclosure) to change this without effect... it's IMHO now reasonable to voice my dispraise for their terms of service and to advise others against spending money on a device that you will not own, a device that can be stopped to function without reason or notice, a device that when used in the advertised use scenario (while it's still functioning) will steal transfer the rights to your designs to someone else without compensation.

________________________________________________________________________
The terms of service of ShaperTools are unacceptable and should not be accepted.
As of that Shaper Origin is, while things stay that way, not worth it.

This guy again. Every, and I mean EVERY TOS has tons of mundane garbage in it!  There have been plenty of Shapers go up for sale and people gladly exchanged them and everything is working great. If you bought 200 of them and resold them at a profit... those clauses make perfect sense.

I am sorry your black and white world accepts no grey areas.

Good day sir. I hope you find happiness in something in life.

Cheers. Bryan


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People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?

Offline Cochese

  • Posts: 332
    • The 144 Workshop
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2020, 08:33 PM »
I'd be way more concerned what happens if the company goes belly-up. Could the patterns be reporduced? Can there be custom firmware to get around that?

That sort of thing. I've become way more open to it lately.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4919
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2020, 09:45 PM »
@bkharman  your inlay is very impressive. Seeing that I don’t see any reason for concern about the precision of the tool.

But, Gregor is right, the terms of service sucks. They’re not “mundane”, they’re draconian. Did they at least promise not to be evil?

Offline TSO_Products

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 324
    • TSO Products LLC
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2020, 10:22 PM »
I'd be way more concerned what happens if the company goes belly-up. Could the patterns be reporduced? Can there be custom firmware to get around that?

That sort of thing. I've become way more open to it lately.

@Cochese- "if the company goes belly-up..." - are you concerned that FESTOOL, as the owner,  will go belly up?
TSO used the Shaper to rout metal prototypes for some of our recent successful new product introductions.

Hans

Offline Cochese

  • Posts: 332
    • The 144 Workshop
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2020, 10:44 PM »
I'd be way more concerned what happens if the company goes belly-up. Could the patterns be reporduced? Can there be custom firmware to get around that?

That sort of thing. I've become way more open to it lately.

@Cochese- "if the company goes belly-up..." - are you concerned that FESTOOL, as the owner,  will go belly up?
TSO used the Shaper to rout metal prototypes for some of our recent successful new product introductions.

Hans

I wasn’t aware TTS purchased them, but that doesn’t exactly make me feel any better about it. Not with some of the seemingly arbitrary availability concerns in NA.

Offline Banana

  • Posts: 57
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2020, 11:56 PM »

TSO used the Shaper to rout metal prototypes for some of our recent successful new product introductions.

Hans

Hans, could you elaborate on best practices for routing aluminum using S.O.? (I think that's what you mean by 'metal').  Bits, max depth, number of passes, keeping blades clean etc.  - Thank you.

Offline JulianG

  • Posts: 6
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2020, 02:15 AM »
I have used my Origin to make some jigs - shapes cut out of 12mm ply for use on a router table with a trim bit. They are 30-40cm long. I haven't measured the accuracy but so far have found the following:

1. Manipulating the tool by hand needs practice. You get better at not moving the cutter away from the line and having it retract on you. It's ok if it moves away from the cut surface but if you move into it, you will probably cut out a chip.

2. It's essential to set an offset for all but the last cut. The last cut is meant as a "finishing cut", which suggests it's all about surface finish, but for me it is about moving the tool as smoothly as I can for this final cut so that the line of the cut doesn't have any imperfections. The tool is easier to control when you aren't cutting much material (i.e. to keep the directional movement smooth, but also the speed of traverse). If I cut a 40cm straight line, say, I can sand it lightly and have it so that when using the trim router, there are no imperfections transferred to the final piece. For long straight cuts, I might make a line with the Origin, then use a track-saw for the cut.

The big, big difference between the Origin and a flat-bed CNC is not this, however. It's that you have to move it yourself. If you have an hour of cutting to do, you need to move the machine around for an hour while you're standing next to it with ear protection on. This is tiring and you need absolute concentration the whole time. If you are doing things commercially and have enough shop space, having a flat-bed CNC would enable you use that hour for something else, even if you need to be in the vicinity just to keep an eye on it.

For me, working in a small workshop and not commercially, with the Origin, I can use my Festool MFT as a work surface and bring my CAD designs directly to the wood without needing to print them on paper and use bandsaw, belt sander, spindle sander etc. to cut them out. I love it  [smile]

Julian

Offline ryanjg117

  • Posts: 257
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2020, 05:05 AM »
I would concur completely with @JulianG. There is nothing like Shaper on the market, in terms of a CNC that fits into a systainer, but it isn't autonomous--and despite a good industrial design the ergonomics are quite poor. Pushing a router through wood for just an hour does a number on my back, and I'm often finding myself contorting into weird positions because Origin always needs to have an abundance of Shaper Tape in its field of view (forward facing camera). Skimp on tape, even a bit, and Shaper can jump around, ruining your workpiece. If that workpiece happens to be 3/4" baltic birch and you've already made five passes and are on a finishing pass when the mistake happens, you can imagine the frustration.

On more con to Shaper is that it's actually only 2D. Meaning it uses SVG files for cutting paths, but it's on you to remember the cut depth of your different machining steps. Something a true CNC handles automatically.

I'm at the point where I'm considering selling my Origin to fund a fixed CNC, but I'm holding out for a used industrial machine.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2020, 05:46 AM by ryanjg117 »

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 1743
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2020, 08:14 AM »
This guy again.
Yes, someone still caring about laws and regulations these days... might be a rare occurence in some parts of the world.
Quote
Every, and I mean EVERY TOS has tons of mundane garbage in it!
Your whataboutism is relevant to this case in what way?
Quote
There have been plenty of Shapers go up for sale and people gladly exchanged them and everything is working great.
That being the case, what's the point of having the exact opposite in the ToS?
Quote
If you bought 200 of them and resold them at a profit... those clauses make perfect sense.
Not even then, someone buying 200 and selling them for profit would just be a demonstration of a direct distribution model being sub-par enough to be beyond bad.
Did they at least promise not to be evil?
I take it that you have noticed how well that went with google?

Offline _pwawmo_

  • Posts: 5
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2020, 09:10 AM »
Thanks to those who have given their experiences with the shaper it's really helpful to hear your thoughts. I'm very on the fence - watching their own well produced videos with the music in the background reels me in pretty successfully! If it lives up to all its claims then it's worth it just for that extra accuracy for situations where you would otherwise have to make a complex jig, or for actually making a complex jig or a template etc. But i'm really not sure if it does actually live up to it's claims and may be more hassle than it's worth with my money better spent elsewhere. From what you're saying it sounds like a clean cut is doable but can be a bit of a finickity process to achieve it consistently. With regards to actual numbers on accuracy, I'm still pretty in the dark about this, both with regards to: if i cut a small circle out, say 10cm diameter, what does that read on a pair of verniers?; Or if i need something larger say 800mm, what's the tolerance on that also?

I'm probably leaning away from the shaper atm and thinking of saving up a bit more for a small gantry system.. However, after following it for so long I'm still tempted to give it a go before dismissing it totally, so i might exercise their 30 day returns offer at some point - and feedback my thoughts to here for anyone who's interested..

*I'm not concerned about any of the T's & C's, maybe that could go in another post if it concerns you, keep this discussion to about the actual tool..!
« Last Edit: June 14, 2020, 07:03 AM by _pwawmo_ »

Offline xedos

  • Posts: 419
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2020, 09:25 AM »
To me the biggest drawback in a one man shop is that man has to be running Shaper.   

With a CNC , said man can program, load the material and then go do something else that generates revenue.   

It's an expensive jig maker, that your accountant probably wouldn't be too fond of. 

Offline rmhinden

  • Posts: 380
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2020, 12:02 PM »
Interesting discussion.  I have been looking at the Shaper Origin for a while.  I can see it would be very nice for making curves and intricate shapes, that is something that don't currently have a good way of doing.    Great for making templates or one off items.

However, it is quite expensive, around $3K.  I think for that kind of investment a medium size CNC would be better value.   Assuming I could make room for it, of course.    Both the Shaper Origin and a CNC require learning a lot of software to use it well.

If it was in the $1000 to $1500 range, I might buy one.   Can't justify it at the current price.   

Offline ryanjg117

  • Posts: 257
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2020, 06:13 PM »
There have been plenty of Shapers go up for sale and people gladly exchanged them and everything is working great.
That being the case, what's the point of having the exact opposite in the ToS?

I also purchased my Shaper secondhand at an industrial auction. I had to contact Shaper support to get added to their user forum, but I received access to the forum and ShaperHub same-day. I'm not sure if they would honor a warranty on a device that is resold like Festool does as long as it's within the three year window, but there doesn't seem to be any issue with transferring devices.

The Ts and Cs will always advantage the corporation. I can think of scenarios where they would want to take ownership of content uploaded to their platform (e.g. to advertise the platform without having to license every individual item uploaded, or to remove content that is inappropriate). This is a cloud service as much as it is a hardware device, so of course since they are paying to manage the infrastructure they could turn it off without legal consequences... Customers would vote with their wallets and likely avoid Shaper like the plague, and potentially Festool as well. I think the likelihood of that happening, at least in the short/medium term, is extremely low. Knowing that I probably only have another 40 years on this planet, I've decided to concern myself with more pressing priorities.

And if you're really doubling up on your tinfoil hat, you could buy Shaper and simply never connect it to any cloud services, not connect it to you wi-fi network, etc. You will lose out on updates and you would have to load all of your designs by USB stick, but there's nothing they could do to disable the physical device.

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 1743
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2020, 06:50 AM »
To be precide about Shaper Origin: In case TTS would have integrated ShaperTools (the same way they did with eg. Schneider Airsystems) to have them follow their 'values' (in the sense of treating customers more like valued partners instead of victims) by offering the same guarantees as with Festool products:
  • 3 years warranty no questions asked to demonstrate confidence in the product
  • 10 years spare parts availability after product EOL or the successor tool for free to demonstrate confidence in the company
  • and (important) a sane ToS that strikes a balance between company and customer to demonstrate business integrity
I would have gotten one the day it became available in Europe. But sadly that didn't happen.
Knowing that I probably only have another 40 years on this planet, I've decided to concern myself with more pressing priorities.

I reckon about the same timeframe (or half a decade more) to be left for me, but I noticed that most people follow your stance and as I think Edmund Burke nailed it with “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing” I decided against being passive as that brings a too high likelyhood of having to spend the last 30+ years of my life in the dystopic nightmare that is logical consequence of a world where ownership has been abolished and everything is just temporarily licensed in an attempt to feed the insatiable greed of rentiers. Indifference about stuff like this is one of the worst paths to follow in my perspective, at least in case one looks farer into the future than the next quarter.

Hence I decided to voice my disagreement with ToS like the one from Shaper Origin, in the hopes that they'll see the light and change them (and it would likely be enough to have the ToS reflect the practice they claim to be doing anyway)... so I can continue to vote with my wallet, just then through opening it.

Till then their ToS is their written testemony that they don't care about me, that I'm just a resource to be exploited to the maximum extend possible - I see no point in supporting an entity that, in an attempt to bind me with it, puts such a stance into writing.

YMMV... but honestly: IMHO it really shouldn't.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2020, 07:02 AM by Gregor »

Offline bkharman

  • Posts: 2074
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2020, 08:33 AM »
[mention]Gregor [/mention] I am guessing you don’t work in software.

Remember this tool is run on software. Many of these items were to protect them as a very small startup with a big project. Should they adopt the TTS ToS there will be other changes that come about. I feel like you have put them in a “can’t win” category for your own reasons.

I have felt with them at a personal level and they aren’t out here to screw us over. Bad choice in picking lawyers?  Maybe. Bad job by TTS to either not fix or change the ToS entirely?  Also maybe.

I have even less on this earth than both of you and choose to spend my time and money on things I find interesting, entertaining or beneficial to me. I have a little bit of all three in one package. Guess I am more of a glass half full kind of guy.

Cheers. Bryan.


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People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?

Offline ryanjg117

  • Posts: 257
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2020, 06:13 PM »
@Gregor, I do appreciate your perspective and observance of legalese. Like (I'm sure) most, I simply accept the ToS without even looking at them -- same for every EULA I've ever come across. Many EULAs have been deemed unenforceable - here is one such circumstance that would seem to apply to Shaper:
Quote
Certain reasons have been put forward for making End User License Agreements unenforceable. One is the fact that usually, the terms in the contract are not negotiable, as a user needs to agree to them before they can be granted access. Also, most users never even come in contact with the EULA until after purchase, with no information as to a possible refund if the user rejects the terms. This is why EULAs are also called shrink-wrap agreements or click-through agreements. Source

Of course, this concerns U.S. law and Europe has much more in the way of consumer protections.

As @bkharman noted, this kind of language is common in the software industry. I'd guess $10 that Shaper hired a San Francisco law firm that also represents much of silicon valley and started with a ToS template used by many SaaS companies.

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 1743
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2020, 08:02 PM »
[mention]Gregor [/mention] I am guessing you don’t work in software.
Sorry, you guessed wrong.
Quote
Remember this tool is run on software.
As does my car - but that software license is bound to the car, is not revokable and Toyota have not had the audacity of trying to grant themselves the ability to limit my access to my car whenever they feel like it because whynot.
Quote
I feel like you have put them in a “can’t win” category for your own reasons.
No, they are in the hey guys, your ToS is completely unacceptable because $reasons, please change it to what you say you'll do anyway and tomorrow morning I'll be the first to buy your product category.
Quote
I have felt with them at a personal level and they aren’t out here to screw us over. Bad choice in picking lawyers?  Maybe. Bad job by TTS to either not fix or change the ToS entirely?  Also maybe.
My impression too, maybe, maybe.

But their ToS still is as it is, as long as it states that what I paid for can be taken away by them for no reason and without compensation (= is not mine)... no sale.

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2020, 09:18 PM »
Hey how about we keep this thread about what the original poster asked about.  If you want to talk about all the other stuff, start a new thread.

Peter Halle - Moderator

Offline Cochese

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Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2020, 10:38 PM »
Saw a video today from Michael Alm that showed him using it for the first time, and it's not error-free. Thought that was interesting, and the thoughts about having to actually rout everything yourself is a fair point. Most of the things I could think of a use for are multiples or intricate things where I wouldn't want to be hunched over a table for an hour.

A 1000mm X-Carve is roughly the same price and can work largely unattended. It does require the physical space to use. If I had to choose one it would be the X-Carve, provided I did have that space.

Offline dsweetser

  • Posts: 130
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Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2020, 06:16 AM »
Back to the original question. "is it worth it?" Depends on your application . I purchased it to do inlays (our company logo)  in hardwood flooring in the entrances of our apartment buildings. Take the tool to the work. There is a learning curve like any computer driven tool. I am still practicing. "how accurate is it really?" Very. I have always believed in the right tool for the job.
Don

Offline ear3

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Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2020, 10:32 AM »
I've never tried the comprehensively measure the precision of the SO, but I can tell you that I regularly operate within .002 increments when I'm using it.  So for example, I just used it to make the cut outs for the threaded inserts I'm using for my elm table project:



Setting the SO to cut to the exact dimensions of the insert (as per the downloadable CAD design from the manufacturer) made the fit a bit too snug.  So I dialed in a .002 offset from the cut line, and that made the fit perfect.  The ability to do those offsets is one of the greatest features of the machine, as you can adjust in real time to get the optimal fit.
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Offline _pwawmo_

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Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2020, 10:44 AM »
That does seem like quite a neat feature, the ability to adjust offsets on the fly.. Is 0.002" the smallest incremental change you can make, or does it let you go even finer than that if you want to?

Offline Cheese

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Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2020, 11:37 AM »
That does seem like quite a neat feature, the ability to adjust offsets on the fly.. Is 0.002" the smallest incremental change you can make, or does it let you go even finer than that if you want to?

I believe the Origin is capable of an offset of .001". Knowing Edward, he probably initially dialed in a .001" offset, didn't like it and then dialed in the .002" offset.

An interesting experiment would be to measure the pocket size before and after the offset to determine the accuracy of the Origin.

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 4186
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2020, 02:01 PM »
@Cheese That is exactly what I did!

That does seem like quite a neat feature, the ability to adjust offsets on the fly.. Is 0.002" the smallest incremental change you can make, or does it let you go even finer than that if you want to?

I believe the Origin is capable of an offset of .001". Knowing Edward, he probably initially dialed in a .001" offset, didn't like it and then dialed in the .002" offset.

An interesting experiment would be to measure the pocket size before and after the offset to determine the accuracy of the Origin.
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Offline Cochese

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Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2020, 02:37 PM »
I've been doing more and more research on this thing and can admit when I'm wrong. It looks great. One video I watched today showed me a specific use-case for me, the FLW-inspired designs I wanted to incorporate on my last project and ultimately settled for a simpler version.

It really would be a perfect case for me in my small shop, I just can't afford it right now. $1500? Yeah, I'd make that happen somehow. I'm still going to try and make it happen eventually, but it won't be in time for these upcoming projects I have planned.

Offline bkharman

  • Posts: 2074
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2020, 03:27 PM »
I've been doing more and more research on this thing and can admit when I'm wrong. It looks great. One video I watched today showed me a specific use-case for me, the FLW-inspired designs I wanted to incorporate on my last project and ultimately settled for a simpler version.

It really would be a perfect case for me in my small shop, I just can't afford it right now. $1500? Yeah, I'd make that happen somehow. I'm still going to try and make it happen eventually, but it won't be in time for these upcoming projects I have planned.
Curious as to FLW?  Happy to chat about things. I have about 2 dozen projects under belt with it.

Cheers. Bryan.


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Offline TwelvebyTwenty

  • Posts: 106
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2020, 03:53 PM »
This looks like a really clever toy/tool I'd quite like to own. However, maybe I'm stating the obvious, but isn't the main disadvantage with this (in comparison to a flat bed CNC machine) that you have to drive it yourself through contact time, rather than just letting it do its thing as you get on with another part of the build?

Offline bkharman

  • Posts: 2074
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2020, 03:57 PM »
This looks like a really clever toy/tool I'd quite like to own. However, maybe I'm stating the obvious, but isn't the main disadvantage with this (in comparison to a flat bed CNC machine) that you have to drive it yourself through contact time, rather than just letting it do its thing as you get on with another part of the build?
100%. Where this excels for me is taking it to the work. Inlays in a table or already installed floor. Also a space saver.

These were the reasons I invested in this vs. a 8*4 CNC in my shop.

Cheers. Bryan.


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Offline TwelvebyTwenty

  • Posts: 106
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #35 on: June 16, 2020, 04:04 PM »
So essentially people probably shouldn't be comparing it to a traditional CNC in the same way you wouldn't compare a pillar drill with an 18v hand drill, even though they both drill holes. Separate use cases and the decision should be driven by your workflow rather the the specific ability of the tool.

Offline Cochese

  • Posts: 332
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Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #36 on: June 16, 2020, 04:13 PM »
I've been doing more and more research on this thing and can admit when I'm wrong. It looks great. One video I watched today showed me a specific use-case for me, the FLW-inspired designs I wanted to incorporate on my last project and ultimately settled for a simpler version.

It really would be a perfect case for me in my small shop, I just can't afford it right now. $1500? Yeah, I'd make that happen somehow. I'm still going to try and make it happen eventually, but it won't be in time for these upcoming projects I have planned.
Curious as to FLW?  Happy to chat about things. I have about 2 dozen projects under belt with it.

Cheers. Bryan.


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Frank Lloyd Wright, Prairie School, etc. Latest project had an attempted inlay based on what may have been a Marion Mahony leaded glass design. Would like to do some more of that and some Harvey Ellis-inspired inlay going forward.

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 2043
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2020, 05:14 PM »
So essentially people probably shouldn't be comparing it to a traditional CNC in the same way you wouldn't compare a pillar drill with an 18v hand drill, even though they both drill holes. Separate use cases and the decision should be driven by your workflow rather the the specific ability of the tool.

@TwelvebyTwenty you are spot on.

I own both, the Origin & a small Shapeoko3. Nearly everything I've done so far is small enough to fit on the SO3 but I have been deferring to the Origin.

It's utility just increased immensely with the release of the WorkStation. If anyone is considering the Origin & haven't seen this take a close look. 2 quite different examples:



This is a shop fixture, downloaded the design from their file sharing hub and cut on WorkStation. It's an example of a somewhat complex design created in CAD or vector software. I made the add-on MDF table for the WS, it's 420MM by 300MM. Haven't tested the overall capacity but I'm guessing I could use double-sided tape to attach material around 24" by 12" to the table. This is actually larger than the SO3's capacity.



This was (poorly) done using on-tool design and grid to create a 1.55" diameter hole placed in the dead center of a 3.5" blank, then using a 1.55" square to further modify one blank. All without leaving the shop or using a computer. I should have used a rectangle larger than 1.55" in Y to eliminate the clipped ends, instead I had to resort to a rasp).

For simple stuff, the on-tool design is huge for me. Even when designing more complex stuff on a computer there is no need to learn CAM, which is a huge time saver over a traditional CNC router.

As already noted, the downside is you must manually control the tool. For most of what I do, this is fine. YMMV

Also, research the gridding functionality. In short, you can scan your material, probe the edges to establish precise X/Y & zero, then "place" a grid on it that your designs will snap to. This enables things like adding mortises or tenons to already sized material, pockets for hardware, and so much more. You can make similar cuts with a lot of cartesian CNC routers, but it'll take you a lot more time.

Just my [2cents]...

RMW


As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline bkharman

  • Posts: 2074
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2020, 05:42 PM »
Richard. You are making me jealous. My SO Workstation doesn’t come till Aug/Sept timeframe

::crying::

Cheers. Bryan.


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Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 2043
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2020, 06:20 PM »
Richard. You are making me jealous. My SO Workstation doesn’t come till Aug/Sept timeframe

::crying::

Cheers. Bryan.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sorry Bryan...  [poke]

I waited until the last day of the original preorder for the SO itself and regretted it. The WS was ordered < 3 hours after it hit the inbox.

Hang tough, it's worth the wait.

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline ghjaxman

  • Posts: 122
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #40 on: June 16, 2020, 06:39 PM »
Cheese what are hold down items you showed and where did you get them?  I also have a Shaper Origin and it works for my small shop.  I am a hobbyist and space and price are what led me to purchase the Origin. I did look at buying a CNC machine and read quite a bit on them when I discovered the Shaper on Kickstarter.  I bought mine in the second round before Festool bought them.  I was pleasantly surprised that Festool did that about the same time I received my Shaper.

I like I can design on the tool.  It is very easy to use, my wife and kids had no trouble running with very little instruction.  Although the price might seem high, however, it can work over very large areas, and it fits in a systainer.  The Shaper Hub Library continues to grow with great projects.  I have made a number of them, just download and cut.  I can see in a production shop it would not be the tool of choice.  It works for me in my small area, whereas a CNC machine would take up too much floor space.  Everyone is going to be different, but I glad I bought the machine and now the workstation.

Offline rst

  • Posts: 2485
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #41 on: June 16, 2020, 07:10 PM »
Had to make 9.75 diameter 1/8" acrylic round for customers portal today...no drawing, converting files or any prep work other than attaching tape.  Five minutes later, perfect round.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7883
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #42 on: June 16, 2020, 07:24 PM »
Hey @ghjaxman  what hold downs are you referencing?  There’s nothing in this thread about them.  [smile]

Offline bkharman

  • Posts: 2074
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #43 on: June 16, 2020, 07:55 PM »
Hey @ghjaxman  what hold downs are you referencing?  There’s nothing in this thread about them.  [smile]
I think he was referring to those pin clips Richard /RMW has on his Workstation. I was curious about them as well.

He mistakenly referred to “Cheese” instead of “big cheese”. 

Cheers. Bryan.


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Offline ghjaxman

  • Posts: 122
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #44 on: June 16, 2020, 10:07 PM »
Correct it should have been Richard

Offline Jim Kirkpatrick

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Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #45 on: June 17, 2020, 06:38 AM »
What keeps me from buying a Shaper Origin is their https://www.shapertools.com/de-de/terms#tc as of 26. September 2018 which with
Quote
2. Our License to you. Subject to these Terms of Service, we give you a limited, nonexclusive, nontransferable, revocable license to use the Sites, Services, and Products. [...] Shaper may limit your access to any Site, Service, or Product in its sole discretion.
states that you are unable to legally transfer ownership (as you're not able to transfer the license to use the build-in software) and access to something you paid for can be taken from you on a whim without even giving you a reason.

TL;DR: the moment your use case for Shaper Origin ends that thing has scrap value at best, sooner in case they unilaterally decide to turn it off.

Compare that to
Quote
(a) License to Shaper.  You give Shaper (and those trusted third parties we work with) a non-exclusive, royalty-free, transferable, sublicensable, worldwide license to use, use, store, display, reproduce, save, modify, create derivative works, perform, and distribute your User Content solely for the purposes of operating, providing, improving, and developing the Shaper Sites, Services, and Products. When you post content to a public or shared space in the Sites, Services, or Products, such as our Community Forum, you also grant Shaper a royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, unrestricted, worldwide license to reproduce, prepare derivative works, distribute copies, perform, or publicly display your User Content in any medium and for any purpose, including commercial purposes.
where you have no recourse or way to stop them from making money of your designs should they decide to. Please note that using the cloud feature of the shaper origin (eg. loading a shape into it via their website) technically is as case of  When you post content to a public or shared space in the Sites, Services, or Products, giving them the right to rip-off legally use your IP in any medium and for any purpose, including commercial.

TL;DR: what you upload to their cloud platform (even in your own partition) is no longer yours.

Then we have
Quote
17. Modification of these Terms of Service. These Terms of Service are subject to occasional change or update. Whenever the Terms of Service are materially changed, we will notify you, and the change will take effect 30 calendar days after notice is posted for existing users and immediately for new users. You are responsible for keeping your contact information up to date if you wish to receive notice of these changes. If you do not want to be subject to any changes in these Terms of Service, you must discontinue using our Services and Products before the change takes place. Continued use will serve as an acceptance of the changed Terms of Service

which basically codifies that they can change the ToS to turn your shaper origin into a pay-per-use device, grant them ius primae noctis or whatever else evil things one can come up with... and the moment you turn on your (*sig*) shaper origin the next time you agree to let them charge your VISA per mm routed, to bend over and relax or comply with whatever else they might come up with. And in case you're not agreeing you, as of the first quote, only have the option to scrap the machine as you're legally unable to sell it as fit for the original purpose since you can not transfer the software license...

TL;DR: you have no rights.

I have pointed that out to them, politely, 3 months ago, together with a list of other things incompatible with how things work here in Europe. While they have used the last three months to change some of the (for them) worst things that I found with their offering... the issue of their ToS is still as-is. Having given them enough time (akin to responsible disclosure) to change this without effect... it's IMHO now reasonable to voice my dispraise for their terms of service and to advise others against spending money on a device that you will not own, a device that can be stopped to function without reason or notice, a device that when used in the advertised use scenario (while it's still functioning) will steal transfer the rights to your designs to someone else without compensation.

________________________________________________________________________
The terms of service of ShaperTools are unacceptable and should not be accepted.
As of that Shaper Origin is, while things stay that way, not worth it.

This guy again. Every, and I mean EVERY TOS has tons of mundane garbage in it!  There have been plenty of Shapers go up for sale and people gladly exchanged them and everything is working great. If you bought 200 of them and resold them at a profit... those clauses make perfect sense.

I am sorry your black and white world accepts no grey areas.

Good day sir. I hope you find happiness in something in life.

Cheers. Bryan


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 [thumbs up]

Offline DynaGlide

  • Posts: 791
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #46 on: June 17, 2020, 07:23 AM »
I'll probably end up with one so I can experience CNC. I have no room for a dedicated machine. My usage case would be precise templates and hardware installation and the occasional giant sign or prop for my kids birthdays. Not having the space for a bandsaw to help with templates is part of the reason I'm attracted to the Origin. I like that there's such an active and sharing community for the tool. From a cost perspective I'll admit it doesn't make sense for me. But neither do these $1000 smart phones they're trying to push on us every two years.
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Offline WillAdams

  • Posts: 68
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #47 on: June 17, 2020, 07:41 AM »
Cheese what are hold down items you showed and where did you get them? 

Those are Tiger Claws developed by Luke at Carbide 3D and intended for use with the Shapeoko which @Richard/RMW mentioned (as well as the Nomad).

(ob. discl. I work for Carbide 3D)

I was a beta-tester and they are flat out amazing.

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 1743
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #48 on: June 17, 2020, 08:09 AM »
[thumbs up]
Have you failed to learn from Trustees of Dartmouth College v. Woodward or Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission that all it takes is one insane court judgement... for them to be coming to collect on what you blissfully signed away? Which one of the three poor souls in South Park S15E01 do you guys plan to be?
« Last Edit: June 17, 2020, 08:26 AM by Gregor »

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 2043
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2020, 09:10 AM »
Hey @ghjaxman  what hold downs are you referencing?  There’s nothing in this thread about them.  [smile]

He mistakenly referred to “Cheese” instead of “big cheese”. 


Ouch! I think...  [scratch chin]

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 2043
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #50 on: June 17, 2020, 09:19 AM »
Cheese what are hold down items you showed and where did you get them? 

Those are Tiger Claws developed by Luke at Carbide 3D and intended for use with the Shapeoko which @Richard/RMW mentioned (as well as the Nomad).

(ob. discl. I work for Carbide 3D)

I was a beta-tester and they are flat out amazing.

Sorry forgot to include that info. Thanks for clarifying @WillAdams

As Will stated, those clamps are downright amazing. I was part of the beta also and use them all over the shop. Not inexpensive but they get the job done.

Using hard stops on one side like the C3D Gators you can hold very large material very securely. Enthusiastic endorsement of all things Carbide 3D, they've been on an innovation sprint in recent months.

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7883
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #51 on: June 17, 2020, 10:19 AM »

He mistakenly referred to “Cheese” instead of “big cheese”. 


Ouch! I think...  [scratch chin]

[/quote]

No ouch Richard... [big grin]...I'm also known as Big Cheese and for awhile was Cheeseburger, Cheeseburger, no Coke, Pepsi.  [tongue]

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 2043
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #52 on: June 17, 2020, 10:39 AM »
Cheeseburger, Cheeseburger, no Coke, Pepsi.  [tongue]

You are dating us...  [big grin]

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7883
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #53 on: June 17, 2020, 10:45 AM »
Hey Richard @Richard/RMW  what size track are you using the Tiger Claws in?

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 2043
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #54 on: June 17, 2020, 10:48 AM »
Hey Richard @Richard/RMW  what size track are you using the Tiger Claws in?

@Cheese pretty standard 3/4" wide 1/2" tall, think I got it from McMaster years ago. The clamp accepts 1/4" & M6 BHSCS.

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline Ebuwan

  • Posts: 5
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #55 on: June 18, 2020, 09:49 AM »
In response to the original question; it's fantastic.

Wanted to whip up a mirror frame for the bathroom; wanted some curves on the top and bottom.

Normally i'd have to layout, cut, and shape a template close to perfection, then use a flush trim bit to get it all done.

I ended up just double side taping 1" thick white oak to a sacrificial piece of ply, and laying out shaper tape on my workbench.

I'll be honest; it was some marathon cutting; taking cuts at only 1/8" increments, but the pieces came out awesome, and i don't have templates laying around.

BUT, if i were making multiple of the same thing, using this thing for templates alone is such a time saver.

Only catch is taking some time (if you don't know how to already) making svg files. I was an avid Sketchup user, and someone made a plugin for it that worked really well, but now with only the new web version being free, no way to use it. So, i've taken up learning to use Fusion 360; its free for personal use, and has a Shaper addon to create the SVG's.

Only time i've had "accuracy" issues is my own fault; trying to take to big a cut usually.

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 985
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #56 on: June 18, 2020, 10:31 AM »
Only catch is taking some time (if you don't know how to already) making svg files. I was an avid Sketchup user, and someone made a plugin for it that worked really well, but now with only the new web version being free, no way to use it. So, i've taken up learning to use Fusion 360; its free for personal use, and has a Shaper addon to create the SVG's.

Shaper has a service that will convert drawings to SVG files. There are fees, but they are very inexpensive.

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1980
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #57 on: June 18, 2020, 11:12 AM »
[thumbs up]
Have you failed to learn from Trustees of Dartmouth College v. Woodward or Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission that all it takes is one insane court judgement... for them to be coming to collect on what you blissfully signed away? Which one of the three poor souls in South Park S15E01 do you guys plan to be?

Just stop.  You made your point, you don't like the TOU.  No need to start insulting people to further your dialogue.  You can start another thread on the topic if you like.
-Raj

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 6349
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #58 on: June 18, 2020, 01:32 PM »
Cheeseburger, Cheeseburger, no Coke, Pepsi.  [tongue]

You are dating us...  [big grin]

RMW

If you ever get to Chicago, a lunch trip to the Billy Goat should be on your to do list.

Tom

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 2023
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #59 on: June 18, 2020, 02:11 PM »
I have not used the Shaper Origin but Rollie Johnson did a presentation on it at the Milwaukee Woodworking Show and he reported that it was extremely accurate. Plus, if you can make accurate jigs with tablesaws, bandsaws, and regular template routing, how could the Shape not be accurate enough. It would certainly be at least as or more accurate than these other methods.

It seems the required tape, which is consumable, could also be an ongoing cost which isn't obvious on the surface.

The Shaper cannot do 3D carving in the sense that you would need to repetitively go over the same pattern multiple times to create varying depths.

Mostly the only reason I would ever consider one is if I were doing inlays on a regular basis or needed to repetitively carve a design on the surface of a piece. I own a Domino and, for making joints, that appears to be faster and easier.
Randy

Offline HowardH

  • Posts: 1281
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #60 on: October 26, 2020, 05:16 PM »
I struggle making curved templates using the normal methods, ie. bandsaw, sanding, re-sanding and then having to start over when I screw it up.   [scared]. I can really see how this could simplify things greatly. I just need to figure out the right SVG software program to use.  I suppose I could take the measurements of an existing template and duplicate it digitally.  Would be curious if it can truly replace the Leigh dovetail jigs I have. 
Howard H
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Offline WillB

  • Posts: 28
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #61 on: November 11, 2020, 01:58 PM »
Great thread...
like the OP, I too wondered about true tolerances.
Now granted, not everyone needs tight tolerances.  When making signage, who cares about .001"?  But a previous poster dismissed this too quickly, as is often the case when tolerances are discussed in ww terms, using the common response "wood moves more than that".  But my issue is, wood moves the same regardless of the tolerance of the CNC ;)

This thread did a GREAT job at demonstrating some of the SO true uniqueness vs. stationary CNC, no footprint when not in use, can bring to job site, can match the work size of 4x8 CNC Gantry at a tiny fraction of the price, relatively simple software, tolerances good enough for prob. 98+% of ww CNC tasks.  (joinery excluded)

The potential downsides, which is still not so clear, tolerances for joinery and tolerances over long runs, user fatigue for extended use, user control error.  I appreciated the user input offered in these areas.  I can see how long repetitive work over large distances the SO becomes less desirable, as labor cost and fatigue and user error might creep in vs. stationary CNC.  But I think SO is not going after that market sector.

On one side, you see this perfect joinery being made on their videos, which demand super tight tolerances.  Heck, even with the Leigh jigs, we are adjusting our elliptical bushings in .001" increments to get perfect joints.   And yet the magazine article demonstrated tolerances way less than what one would expect for perfect joinery. 

Now that the joinery accessory is being shipped, I would suspect a lot of users will now be doing lots of dovetail and box joints, should be interesting to get feedback from those users, as if there is tolerance issues, they would surely surface with complex joinery layout, specially over long distances, such as 24" long.   I wold be quite impressed if SO can produce 24" long dovetial joints with perfect fits like shown on their website.  If it can pass that test, KUDOS to SO!!!  I am probably a buyer soon as well....

By no means am I knocking this product.  IMO, the premise and execution has been absolutely BRILLIANT, and I have been so impressed watching this company grow.  Love to see this level of technology brought to ww.  But like all posts on this forum, users dig deeper than current info is available. 

As a side note, I noticed smaller sized CNC, at about 2ft x 4ft range ($6K price range usa) state tolerances of .005" as a reference.   For non joinery work, I would consider this excellent. 





Offline jarbroen

  • Posts: 279
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #62 on: November 18, 2020, 11:29 AM »
WillB - you mentioned that even with a Leigh jig you are adjusting bushings to get that last .001" when fitting joints.
I haven't used it yet, but noticed that the ShaperO has a cut offset that you can adjust.  Pretty sure they use a similar principle that you'd find with the bearing adjustment for Leigh or the click settings with an Incra setup.