Author Topic: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?  (Read 5734 times)

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Offline ear3

  • Posts: 4186
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2020, 02:01 PM »
@Cheese That is exactly what I did!

That does seem like quite a neat feature, the ability to adjust offsets on the fly.. Is 0.002" the smallest incremental change you can make, or does it let you go even finer than that if you want to?

I believe the Origin is capable of an offset of .001". Knowing Edward, he probably initially dialed in a .001" offset, didn't like it and then dialed in the .002" offset.

An interesting experiment would be to measure the pocket size before and after the offset to determine the accuracy of the Origin.
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Offline Cochese

  • Posts: 332
    • The 144 Workshop
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2020, 02:37 PM »
I've been doing more and more research on this thing and can admit when I'm wrong. It looks great. One video I watched today showed me a specific use-case for me, the FLW-inspired designs I wanted to incorporate on my last project and ultimately settled for a simpler version.

It really would be a perfect case for me in my small shop, I just can't afford it right now. $1500? Yeah, I'd make that happen somehow. I'm still going to try and make it happen eventually, but it won't be in time for these upcoming projects I have planned.

Offline bkharman

  • Posts: 2074
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2020, 03:27 PM »
I've been doing more and more research on this thing and can admit when I'm wrong. It looks great. One video I watched today showed me a specific use-case for me, the FLW-inspired designs I wanted to incorporate on my last project and ultimately settled for a simpler version.

It really would be a perfect case for me in my small shop, I just can't afford it right now. $1500? Yeah, I'd make that happen somehow. I'm still going to try and make it happen eventually, but it won't be in time for these upcoming projects I have planned.
Curious as to FLW?  Happy to chat about things. I have about 2 dozen projects under belt with it.

Cheers. Bryan.


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Offline TwelvebyTwenty

  • Posts: 106
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2020, 03:53 PM »
This looks like a really clever toy/tool I'd quite like to own. However, maybe I'm stating the obvious, but isn't the main disadvantage with this (in comparison to a flat bed CNC machine) that you have to drive it yourself through contact time, rather than just letting it do its thing as you get on with another part of the build?

Offline bkharman

  • Posts: 2074
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2020, 03:57 PM »
This looks like a really clever toy/tool I'd quite like to own. However, maybe I'm stating the obvious, but isn't the main disadvantage with this (in comparison to a flat bed CNC machine) that you have to drive it yourself through contact time, rather than just letting it do its thing as you get on with another part of the build?
100%. Where this excels for me is taking it to the work. Inlays in a table or already installed floor. Also a space saver.

These were the reasons I invested in this vs. a 8*4 CNC in my shop.

Cheers. Bryan.


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Offline TwelvebyTwenty

  • Posts: 106
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #35 on: June 16, 2020, 04:04 PM »
So essentially people probably shouldn't be comparing it to a traditional CNC in the same way you wouldn't compare a pillar drill with an 18v hand drill, even though they both drill holes. Separate use cases and the decision should be driven by your workflow rather the the specific ability of the tool.

Offline Cochese

  • Posts: 332
    • The 144 Workshop
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #36 on: June 16, 2020, 04:13 PM »
I've been doing more and more research on this thing and can admit when I'm wrong. It looks great. One video I watched today showed me a specific use-case for me, the FLW-inspired designs I wanted to incorporate on my last project and ultimately settled for a simpler version.

It really would be a perfect case for me in my small shop, I just can't afford it right now. $1500? Yeah, I'd make that happen somehow. I'm still going to try and make it happen eventually, but it won't be in time for these upcoming projects I have planned.
Curious as to FLW?  Happy to chat about things. I have about 2 dozen projects under belt with it.

Cheers. Bryan.


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Frank Lloyd Wright, Prairie School, etc. Latest project had an attempted inlay based on what may have been a Marion Mahony leaded glass design. Would like to do some more of that and some Harvey Ellis-inspired inlay going forward.

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 2043
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2020, 05:14 PM »
So essentially people probably shouldn't be comparing it to a traditional CNC in the same way you wouldn't compare a pillar drill with an 18v hand drill, even though they both drill holes. Separate use cases and the decision should be driven by your workflow rather the the specific ability of the tool.

@TwelvebyTwenty you are spot on.

I own both, the Origin & a small Shapeoko3. Nearly everything I've done so far is small enough to fit on the SO3 but I have been deferring to the Origin.

It's utility just increased immensely with the release of the WorkStation. If anyone is considering the Origin & haven't seen this take a close look. 2 quite different examples:



This is a shop fixture, downloaded the design from their file sharing hub and cut on WorkStation. It's an example of a somewhat complex design created in CAD or vector software. I made the add-on MDF table for the WS, it's 420MM by 300MM. Haven't tested the overall capacity but I'm guessing I could use double-sided tape to attach material around 24" by 12" to the table. This is actually larger than the SO3's capacity.



This was (poorly) done using on-tool design and grid to create a 1.55" diameter hole placed in the dead center of a 3.5" blank, then using a 1.55" square to further modify one blank. All without leaving the shop or using a computer. I should have used a rectangle larger than 1.55" in Y to eliminate the clipped ends, instead I had to resort to a rasp).

For simple stuff, the on-tool design is huge for me. Even when designing more complex stuff on a computer there is no need to learn CAM, which is a huge time saver over a traditional CNC router.

As already noted, the downside is you must manually control the tool. For most of what I do, this is fine. YMMV

Also, research the gridding functionality. In short, you can scan your material, probe the edges to establish precise X/Y & zero, then "place" a grid on it that your designs will snap to. This enables things like adding mortises or tenons to already sized material, pockets for hardware, and so much more. You can make similar cuts with a lot of cartesian CNC routers, but it'll take you a lot more time.

Just my [2cents]...

RMW


As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline bkharman

  • Posts: 2074
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2020, 05:42 PM »
Richard. You are making me jealous. My SO Workstation doesn’t come till Aug/Sept timeframe

::crying::

Cheers. Bryan.


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Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 2043
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2020, 06:20 PM »
Richard. You are making me jealous. My SO Workstation doesn’t come till Aug/Sept timeframe

::crying::

Cheers. Bryan.


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Sorry Bryan...  [poke]

I waited until the last day of the original preorder for the SO itself and regretted it. The WS was ordered < 3 hours after it hit the inbox.

Hang tough, it's worth the wait.

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline ghjaxman

  • Posts: 122
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #40 on: June 16, 2020, 06:39 PM »
Cheese what are hold down items you showed and where did you get them?  I also have a Shaper Origin and it works for my small shop.  I am a hobbyist and space and price are what led me to purchase the Origin. I did look at buying a CNC machine and read quite a bit on them when I discovered the Shaper on Kickstarter.  I bought mine in the second round before Festool bought them.  I was pleasantly surprised that Festool did that about the same time I received my Shaper.

I like I can design on the tool.  It is very easy to use, my wife and kids had no trouble running with very little instruction.  Although the price might seem high, however, it can work over very large areas, and it fits in a systainer.  The Shaper Hub Library continues to grow with great projects.  I have made a number of them, just download and cut.  I can see in a production shop it would not be the tool of choice.  It works for me in my small area, whereas a CNC machine would take up too much floor space.  Everyone is going to be different, but I glad I bought the machine and now the workstation.

Offline rst

  • Posts: 2485
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #41 on: June 16, 2020, 07:10 PM »
Had to make 9.75 diameter 1/8" acrylic round for customers portal today...no drawing, converting files or any prep work other than attaching tape.  Five minutes later, perfect round.

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 7883
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #42 on: June 16, 2020, 07:24 PM »
Hey @ghjaxman  what hold downs are you referencing?  There’s nothing in this thread about them.  [smile]

Offline bkharman

  • Posts: 2074
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #43 on: June 16, 2020, 07:55 PM »
Hey @ghjaxman  what hold downs are you referencing?  There’s nothing in this thread about them.  [smile]
I think he was referring to those pin clips Richard /RMW has on his Workstation. I was curious about them as well.

He mistakenly referred to “Cheese” instead of “big cheese”. 

Cheers. Bryan.


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Offline ghjaxman

  • Posts: 122
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #44 on: June 16, 2020, 10:07 PM »
Correct it should have been Richard

Offline Jim Kirkpatrick

  • Posts: 1220
    • My Instagram
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #45 on: June 17, 2020, 06:38 AM »
What keeps me from buying a Shaper Origin is their https://www.shapertools.com/de-de/terms#tc as of 26. September 2018 which with
Quote
2. Our License to you. Subject to these Terms of Service, we give you a limited, nonexclusive, nontransferable, revocable license to use the Sites, Services, and Products. [...] Shaper may limit your access to any Site, Service, or Product in its sole discretion.
states that you are unable to legally transfer ownership (as you're not able to transfer the license to use the build-in software) and access to something you paid for can be taken from you on a whim without even giving you a reason.

TL;DR: the moment your use case for Shaper Origin ends that thing has scrap value at best, sooner in case they unilaterally decide to turn it off.

Compare that to
Quote
(a) License to Shaper.  You give Shaper (and those trusted third parties we work with) a non-exclusive, royalty-free, transferable, sublicensable, worldwide license to use, use, store, display, reproduce, save, modify, create derivative works, perform, and distribute your User Content solely for the purposes of operating, providing, improving, and developing the Shaper Sites, Services, and Products. When you post content to a public or shared space in the Sites, Services, or Products, such as our Community Forum, you also grant Shaper a royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, unrestricted, worldwide license to reproduce, prepare derivative works, distribute copies, perform, or publicly display your User Content in any medium and for any purpose, including commercial purposes.
where you have no recourse or way to stop them from making money of your designs should they decide to. Please note that using the cloud feature of the shaper origin (eg. loading a shape into it via their website) technically is as case of  When you post content to a public or shared space in the Sites, Services, or Products, giving them the right to rip-off legally use your IP in any medium and for any purpose, including commercial.

TL;DR: what you upload to their cloud platform (even in your own partition) is no longer yours.

Then we have
Quote
17. Modification of these Terms of Service. These Terms of Service are subject to occasional change or update. Whenever the Terms of Service are materially changed, we will notify you, and the change will take effect 30 calendar days after notice is posted for existing users and immediately for new users. You are responsible for keeping your contact information up to date if you wish to receive notice of these changes. If you do not want to be subject to any changes in these Terms of Service, you must discontinue using our Services and Products before the change takes place. Continued use will serve as an acceptance of the changed Terms of Service

which basically codifies that they can change the ToS to turn your shaper origin into a pay-per-use device, grant them ius primae noctis or whatever else evil things one can come up with... and the moment you turn on your (*sig*) shaper origin the next time you agree to let them charge your VISA per mm routed, to bend over and relax or comply with whatever else they might come up with. And in case you're not agreeing you, as of the first quote, only have the option to scrap the machine as you're legally unable to sell it as fit for the original purpose since you can not transfer the software license...

TL;DR: you have no rights.

I have pointed that out to them, politely, 3 months ago, together with a list of other things incompatible with how things work here in Europe. While they have used the last three months to change some of the (for them) worst things that I found with their offering... the issue of their ToS is still as-is. Having given them enough time (akin to responsible disclosure) to change this without effect... it's IMHO now reasonable to voice my dispraise for their terms of service and to advise others against spending money on a device that you will not own, a device that can be stopped to function without reason or notice, a device that when used in the advertised use scenario (while it's still functioning) will steal transfer the rights to your designs to someone else without compensation.

________________________________________________________________________
The terms of service of ShaperTools are unacceptable and should not be accepted.
As of that Shaper Origin is, while things stay that way, not worth it.

This guy again. Every, and I mean EVERY TOS has tons of mundane garbage in it!  There have been plenty of Shapers go up for sale and people gladly exchanged them and everything is working great. If you bought 200 of them and resold them at a profit... those clauses make perfect sense.

I am sorry your black and white world accepts no grey areas.

Good day sir. I hope you find happiness in something in life.

Cheers. Bryan


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 [thumbs up]

Offline DynaGlide

  • Posts: 791
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #46 on: June 17, 2020, 07:23 AM »
I'll probably end up with one so I can experience CNC. I have no room for a dedicated machine. My usage case would be precise templates and hardware installation and the occasional giant sign or prop for my kids birthdays. Not having the space for a bandsaw to help with templates is part of the reason I'm attracted to the Origin. I like that there's such an active and sharing community for the tool. From a cost perspective I'll admit it doesn't make sense for me. But neither do these $1000 smart phones they're trying to push on us every two years.
Instagram @matts.garage

Offline WillAdams

  • Posts: 68
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #47 on: June 17, 2020, 07:41 AM »
Cheese what are hold down items you showed and where did you get them? 

Those are Tiger Claws developed by Luke at Carbide 3D and intended for use with the Shapeoko which @Richard/RMW mentioned (as well as the Nomad).

(ob. discl. I work for Carbide 3D)

I was a beta-tester and they are flat out amazing.

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 1743
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #48 on: June 17, 2020, 08:09 AM »
[thumbs up]
Have you failed to learn from Trustees of Dartmouth College v. Woodward or Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission that all it takes is one insane court judgement... for them to be coming to collect on what you blissfully signed away? Which one of the three poor souls in South Park S15E01 do you guys plan to be?
« Last Edit: June 17, 2020, 08:26 AM by Gregor »

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 2043
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2020, 09:10 AM »
Hey @ghjaxman  what hold downs are you referencing?  There’s nothing in this thread about them.  [smile]

He mistakenly referred to “Cheese” instead of “big cheese”. 


Ouch! I think...  [scratch chin]

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 2043
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #50 on: June 17, 2020, 09:19 AM »
Cheese what are hold down items you showed and where did you get them? 

Those are Tiger Claws developed by Luke at Carbide 3D and intended for use with the Shapeoko which @Richard/RMW mentioned (as well as the Nomad).

(ob. discl. I work for Carbide 3D)

I was a beta-tester and they are flat out amazing.

Sorry forgot to include that info. Thanks for clarifying @WillAdams

As Will stated, those clamps are downright amazing. I was part of the beta also and use them all over the shop. Not inexpensive but they get the job done.

Using hard stops on one side like the C3D Gators you can hold very large material very securely. Enthusiastic endorsement of all things Carbide 3D, they've been on an innovation sprint in recent months.

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 7883
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #51 on: June 17, 2020, 10:19 AM »

He mistakenly referred to “Cheese” instead of “big cheese”. 


Ouch! I think...  [scratch chin]

[/quote]

No ouch Richard... [big grin]...I'm also known as Big Cheese and for awhile was Cheeseburger, Cheeseburger, no Coke, Pepsi.  [tongue]

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 2043
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #52 on: June 17, 2020, 10:39 AM »
Cheeseburger, Cheeseburger, no Coke, Pepsi.  [tongue]

You are dating us...  [big grin]

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 7883
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #53 on: June 17, 2020, 10:45 AM »
Hey Richard @Richard/RMW  what size track are you using the Tiger Claws in?

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 2043
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #54 on: June 17, 2020, 10:48 AM »
Hey Richard @Richard/RMW  what size track are you using the Tiger Claws in?

@Cheese pretty standard 3/4" wide 1/2" tall, think I got it from McMaster years ago. The clamp accepts 1/4" & M6 BHSCS.

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline Ebuwan

  • Posts: 5
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #55 on: June 18, 2020, 09:49 AM »
In response to the original question; it's fantastic.

Wanted to whip up a mirror frame for the bathroom; wanted some curves on the top and bottom.

Normally i'd have to layout, cut, and shape a template close to perfection, then use a flush trim bit to get it all done.

I ended up just double side taping 1" thick white oak to a sacrificial piece of ply, and laying out shaper tape on my workbench.

I'll be honest; it was some marathon cutting; taking cuts at only 1/8" increments, but the pieces came out awesome, and i don't have templates laying around.

BUT, if i were making multiple of the same thing, using this thing for templates alone is such a time saver.

Only catch is taking some time (if you don't know how to already) making svg files. I was an avid Sketchup user, and someone made a plugin for it that worked really well, but now with only the new web version being free, no way to use it. So, i've taken up learning to use Fusion 360; its free for personal use, and has a Shaper addon to create the SVG's.

Only time i've had "accuracy" issues is my own fault; trying to take to big a cut usually.

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 985
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #56 on: June 18, 2020, 10:31 AM »
Only catch is taking some time (if you don't know how to already) making svg files. I was an avid Sketchup user, and someone made a plugin for it that worked really well, but now with only the new web version being free, no way to use it. So, i've taken up learning to use Fusion 360; its free for personal use, and has a Shaper addon to create the SVG's.

Shaper has a service that will convert drawings to SVG files. There are fees, but they are very inexpensive.

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1980
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #57 on: June 18, 2020, 11:12 AM »
[thumbs up]
Have you failed to learn from Trustees of Dartmouth College v. Woodward or Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission that all it takes is one insane court judgement... for them to be coming to collect on what you blissfully signed away? Which one of the three poor souls in South Park S15E01 do you guys plan to be?

Just stop.  You made your point, you don't like the TOU.  No need to start insulting people to further your dialogue.  You can start another thread on the topic if you like.
-Raj

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 6349
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #58 on: June 18, 2020, 01:32 PM »
Cheeseburger, Cheeseburger, no Coke, Pepsi.  [tongue]

You are dating us...  [big grin]

RMW

If you ever get to Chicago, a lunch trip to the Billy Goat should be on your to do list.

Tom

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 2023
Re: Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?
« Reply #59 on: June 18, 2020, 02:11 PM »
I have not used the Shaper Origin but Rollie Johnson did a presentation on it at the Milwaukee Woodworking Show and he reported that it was extremely accurate. Plus, if you can make accurate jigs with tablesaws, bandsaws, and regular template routing, how could the Shape not be accurate enough. It would certainly be at least as or more accurate than these other methods.

It seems the required tape, which is consumable, could also be an ongoing cost which isn't obvious on the surface.

The Shaper cannot do 3D carving in the sense that you would need to repetitively go over the same pattern multiple times to create varying depths.

Mostly the only reason I would ever consider one is if I were doing inlays on a regular basis or needed to repetitively carve a design on the surface of a piece. I own a Domino and, for making joints, that appears to be faster and easier.
Randy