Author Topic: Saw Shield -- New Finger-saving Technology for Table Saws and Band Saws  (Read 4153 times)

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Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2396
Said to be made in the USA and available in 2021, compatible with most existing table saws and band saws: https://www.getsawshield.com/

Here's the link to the table saw section:

https://www.getsawshield.com/table-saw

The FAQ section contains an installation video.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.



Offline Ster1154

  • Posts: 112
    • WoodEyes Woodworks
Neat idea, though it seems like it'd be susceptible to a lot of accidental trips.  I couldn't find what it mean by "too close to the blade", I wonder if someone using a GRR-ripper for instance would trip it b/c their hands are technically close to the blade but fully protected.

Offline Packard

  • Posts: 190
The only accidents I have had on the table saw were:

1.  A short piece of stock kicked back and tore off my fingernail.

2.  A plastic push stick jambed against the blade and exploded from the stored energy. 

Neither would have been eliminated with saw stop technology.  I do wonder if saw stop makes people sloppier around their saws.

Note:  Push sticks made from scrap lumber are safer than the plastic push sticks that can store energy by flexing against the moving blade.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1261
Wow, a tech that they tell you zero about!   Sorry, no.   

Ignoring how it might work. Any add on for something like this is a straight up no.  They have no idea about each manufactures saws and what they can do.  You know it will void any warranty from the saw manufacture. It's just a massive liability wanting to happen.

Whole thing screams scam.  They are a start up, and don't have a shipping product, yet have brackets for most saws?  Further by now, you would have filed patents, so you would be covered. Which then means they very well are doing something that has been patented in the past, and they are just trying to have a market window before others come out with the same.

They also don't even explain the sensor.  They show it laying on the saw, that's useless. Where does this go? Of is the bracket mounting the sensor? In that case is this a motor brake, they are tripping electronics to stop the motor super fast?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2020, 03:55 PM by DeformedTree »

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2396
Snip.

I do wonder if saw stop makes people sloppier around their saws.


Some, especially those who have never used the SawStop, may say yes, and some may say no. For me, the cost of activating the SawStop cartridge would be pretty deep: $185 WWII blade + $110 cartridge plus tax, or about $300 Cdn. Even more, if I use a dado cutter and cartridge.  So the SawStop hasn't changed how I use a table saw in terms of safety and care.

The riving knife doesn't eliminate all kickbacks; I've installed the Jessem stock guides, making the saw kickback-proof (as long as the guides are used).
« Last Edit: December 14, 2020, 03:50 PM by ChuckM »

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1261
Wow,  how did this guy find the time to make this company this year along with the 3 other companies he founded this year. 

It's kinda comical how similar all the websites looks.  Could have also used a different girl in videos for the different businesses.

It's not hard to find these, I won't post anything to them as I'm not going to support this in anyway. 

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7237
The only accidents I have had on the table saw were:

1.  A short piece of stock kicked back and tore off my fingernail.

In 23 years of using a tablesaw I only cut my hand once on the blade. When the machine was turned off.  [big grin]

The only other time it hurt me was when a cut-off was propelled with force into my abdomen. Slight brushing of the skin only, but it did have quite some force and it hurt.

I never even had an "almost" experience with the blade, I am always very careful.

I think that careful people will still be careful with a SawStop solution installed. Careless people will always be careless.

Not sure I'd trust this company a lot, DeformedTree raises some sensible concerns.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1261
Saw Stop and others can't protect from what I consider the real threat, cutoffs. I've never been hit, but have had bits go flying. Not talking about standard kickback caused by fence usage, just talking about off cuts.  Happens with miter saws too.   Saws with braking (EU mandate, but not in the US), help, as you only have a few seconds till the saw stops.

I stand to the side to stay out of the way, but you never know what is going to happen.

Table saws are nice in that the blade isn't going anyplace, you know where it is.  Only time I get concerned is doing thin rips.  That is where I can see buying a TKS80 in time,  it doesn't have pull function, but since my main use for such a saw would be rip cuts, it would be fine.

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2396
I use deflectors on the table saw when I have lots of cutoffs to handle.

Adapted from the Deflector Wedge by Rod Sheridan.

Template: https://tinyurl.com/wnj76g7
« Last Edit: December 14, 2020, 04:24 PM by ChuckM »

Offline rmhinden

  • Posts: 408
Re: Saw Shield -- New Finger-saving Technology for Table Saws and Band Saws
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2020, 04:46 PM »
Regarding SawShield, I am also skeptical based on what I read on their web site.   Among other things, it seems too sensitive.   It is nice seeing other solutions come to market, but not sure how well an after market solution can work.

I am on my third table saw, current one is a SawStop 3HP PCS.   It's a great saw, I paid extra for the safety features.   Unlike my previous saws, the riving knife and blade guard actually work, and I almost always use them.  My earlier saws, it got in the way and I took it off.  It's both functional and safer.   It also has good dust collection.   

I haven had any serious accidents with my table saws, a few kickback on the earlier saws.   Still have all my fingers and plan to keep it that way.   

A month and half ago, I cut my left index finger on a forstner bit, required 5 stitches, it is mostly healed now and didn't loose any function.  It happened very quickly, I clearly put my finger where it shouldn't have been.   It has made me think about safety more.   Fingers don't grow back.   

Bob








Offline Svar

  • Posts: 2336
Re: Saw Shield -- New Finger-saving Technology for Table Saws and Band Saws
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2020, 04:47 PM »
I do wonder if saw stop makes people sloppier around their saws.
No more than seatbelts and airbags make them reckless drivers.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1261
Re: Saw Shield -- New Finger-saving Technology for Table Saws and Band Saws
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2020, 05:10 PM »
I do wonder if saw stop makes people sloppier around their saws.
No more than seatbelts and airbags make them reckless drivers.

So while I doubt saw stop makes people reckless, other such system do have this problem.  While airbags and seat belts not so much, recent studies have found things like Lane Assist and Auto braking do make people lazy, as they just become dependent on them and tune out from actively paying attention.  This becomes a real issue when those folks get in a car without those systems and now they have grown used to them kicking in.

I don't think there would ever be enough users/data to really get an answer for something like saw stop, as it's such a specialized situation, but just like other safety systems that people get lazy with, there probably are those who even without realizing it pay a bit less attention because they have that safety piece of mind there. The fear is reduced.




Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7237
Re: Saw Shield -- New Finger-saving Technology for Table Saws and Band Saws
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2020, 05:32 PM »
but just like other safety systems that people get lazy with, there probably are those who even without realizing it pay a bit less attention because they have that safety piece of mind there. The fear is reduced.

Fear of losing a finger is replaced with fear of losing 300 bucks for a new cartridge. The latter is probably a lot bigger fear for most.  [tongue]

Anyhow, I can't wrap my head around the idea you would ever feel at ease with that screaming machine with 48 teeth @ 5000 RPM running in front of you.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2020, 05:35 PM by Alex »

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2396
Re: Saw Shield -- New Finger-saving Technology for Table Saws and Band Saws
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2020, 05:35 PM »
PTI (with its own vested interest (of course), of which Festool is a member) suggests this:

Unintended Consequences Of The Sawstop Technology

    Data supplied by SawStop concerning the number of table saw units sold and the number of reported blade contact incidences, demonstrates that operators are nearly five times more likely to contact the saw blade of a SawStop saw as opposed to the operator of a conventional table saw.
    Logic dictates that this increase in accident rate on SawStop saws is due primarily to a user’s decision to use the blade guard less frequently or not at all due to a “sense of security” in having the SawStop flesh-sensing technology on the saw.
    The reduced rate of using the blade guarding system will result in increased rate of facial or eye injuries caused by high velocity particles ejected by the saw blade or injuries caused by workpiece kickback.
    The increased cost of even the least expensive table saws, as discussed in this document, may result in power tool users resorting to unsafe methods (for example: using portable hand held circular saw in inverted position) to accomplish cuts normally performed on a table saw.
    The rising population in the 1980's of the affordable and safe benchtop saw resulted in a decrease in accidents from circular saws being used improperly. If benchtop saws become drastically more expensive or manufacturers withdraw from the market, there could be a return to improper use of circular saws and unintended declines in safety.

https://www.powertoolinstitute.com/pti-pages/it-table-saw-facts.asp
« Last Edit: December 14, 2020, 07:03 PM by ChuckM »

Offline HarveyWildes

  • Posts: 965
Re: Saw Shield -- New Finger-saving Technology for Table Saws and Band Saws
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2020, 05:39 PM »
I'm with the skeptics - I want to see some reviews before I'm buying it.

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2396
Re: Saw Shield -- New Finger-saving Technology for Table Saws and Band Saws
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2020, 05:41 PM »
Snip.
Fear of losing a finger is replaced with fear of losing 300 bucks for a new cartridge. The latter is probably a lot bigger fear for most.  [tongue]


With SawStop, the fear of losing a finger doesn't exist, only the fear of a cut. But the cut, if it happens, is not very deep in most cases...at least not as deep as $300 in the pocket. [tongue] [big grin] It's quite a deterrent, like a speeding ticket.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2020, 05:56 PM by ChuckM »

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2396
Re: Saw Shield -- New Finger-saving Technology for Table Saws and Band Saws
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2020, 06:09 PM »
Snip.
This becomes a real issue when those folks get in a car without those systems and now they have grown used to them kicking in.

That's especially so if the driver gets distracted with talking to a passenger or on the phone.

The new car safety features, however, have driven down accidents on the whole: https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2019/06/10/traffic-accidents-decline-because-of-car-features/1407386001/

https://www.forbes.com/advisor/car-insurance/vehicle-safety-features-accidents/

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1261
Re: Saw Shield -- New Finger-saving Technology for Table Saws and Band Saws
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2020, 06:31 PM »
but just like other safety systems that people get lazy with, there probably are those who even without realizing it pay a bit less attention because they have that safety piece of mind there. The fear is reduced.

Fear of losing a finger is replaced with fear of losing 300 bucks for a new cartridge. The latter is probably a lot bigger fear for most.  [tongue]

Anyhow, I can't wrap my head around the idea you would ever feel at ease with that screaming machine with 48 teeth @ 5000 RPM running in front of you.

Think about almost everything around you. Electricity in your house? Flying in an airplane?  Everything about your car.  Yard tools (giant spinning blade next to you feet as you wander around tipping it up at the world.  We become numb to the danger of everything with time/experience.  What was once terrifying no longer is, in part because it does get made safer, but also we become so use to it we don't think of it.

The first time you use a table saw, you are nervous.  Of course your shop teacher or father/mother told you how dangerous it is when you learned how to use it. But over time, you get used to it.  I'm fairly new to routers, they are straight up terrifying, far more than a table saw. But you get more comfortable with it every time you use it, and thus you get more careless, even if you don't know you are.

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 1022
Re: Saw Shield -- New Finger-saving Technology for Table Saws and Band Saws
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2020, 10:36 PM »
PTI (with its own vested interest (of course), of which Festool is a member) suggests this:

Unintended Consequences Of The Sawstop Technology

 1.   Data supplied by SawStop concerning the number of table saw units sold and the number of reported blade contact incidences, demonstrates that operators are nearly five times more likely to contact the saw blade of a SawStop saw as opposed to the operator of a conventional table saw.
2.    Logic dictates that this increase in accident rate on SawStop saws is due primarily to a user’s decision to use the blade guard less frequently or not at all due to a “sense of security” in having the SawStop flesh-sensing technology on the saw.
3.    The reduced rate of using the blade guarding system will result in increased rate of facial or eye injuries caused by high velocity particles ejected by the saw blade or injuries caused by workpiece kickback.
4.   The increased cost of even the least expensive table saws, as discussed in this document, may result in power tool users resorting to unsafe methods (for example: using portable hand held circular saw in inverted position) to accomplish cuts normally performed on a table saw.
5.    The rising population in the 1980's of the affordable and safe benchtop saw resulted in a decrease in accidents from circular saws being used improperly. If benchtop saws become drastically more expensive or manufacturers withdraw from the market, there could be a return to improper use of circular saws and unintended declines in safety.

https://www.powertoolinstitute.com/pti-pages/it-table-saw-facts.asp

Obviously as @ChuckM implied their unintended consequences (UC) are speculative at best. I numbered these UC's for reference.
1. No one knows the exact number of saws sold or blade contacts. The former may never be known as it is company proprietary data and the latter could be artificially inflated to make the saw seem like the safety is worth the money.

2. This is as close as you can get to pure speculation and was probably worked up by an expert in corporate communications.

3. The saw protects against life-altering damage to hands and fingers. The device was never designed to prevent kickback or facial or eye injuries. This point is irrelevant as it pertains to the SawStop's safety feature.

4. This may be true, but cheap comes in two flavors: One who cannot afford a better or more expensive tool and one who can but chooses not too. Neither one of these can be fixed other than giving the saws away and even then it may not be enough. Bicycle helmets are cheap, yet very few adults wear them. Motorcycles are incredibly dangerous, yet plenty of people ride them. Mouth guards are a few dollars yet most will not wear them unless they are required. People make poor decisions all of the time and wealth does not guarantee good decisions. I have met some of the cheapest wealthy people on many a work-site. Someone who is willing build a table saw out of circular saw is insane and there is no hope for them. Their lives involve multiple poor/insane decisions.

5. Benchtop table saws are more dangerous than stationary ones for many reasons. The main is price which directly impacts quality. The primary driver of cost is reducing weight to improve portability: thinner metal, more plastic, smaller table, less stable fence, less powerful motor. You end up with one big compromise.The saws they are trying to compare to are the $100 ones which are incredibly dangerous just due to stability.  The best bench top saws cost $400 and up and I have no issues with their safety so long as they are used on a stable surface and not dropped, which could potentially alter the alignment of the blade or damage the fence.

All tools are dangerous not matter how safe you are or think you are. Cheap table saws are the most affordable dangerous tool available short of possibly a chainsaw. A shaper is a far more life changing machine than both of them, but very few people own one outside of dedicated woodworkers and professionals.

The best advice is to stick to a track saw before even contemplating a table saw and if you must go with the safest you can get. I have no affiliation with SawStop or Bosch. Both are great and provide the utmost safety.


I will add that the fact that the SawStop destroys your blade is meaningless because you still have your hand, all fingers and only need a band aid. If it does trigger and you have to buy a new brake and blade you will not care. The plus to it is you are forced to stand down until you can replace them, which you need to do when you have avoided a life altering injury. The weak point of the Bosch is that you can fire it right back up and keep cutting, which is a terrible plan.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1261
Re: Saw Shield -- New Finger-saving Technology for Table Saws and Band Saws
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2020, 11:21 PM »

I will add that the fact that the SawStop destroys your blade is meaningless because you still have your hand, all fingers and only need a band aid. If it does trigger and you have to buy a new brake and blade you will not care. The plus to it is you are forced to stand down until you can replace them, which you need to do when you have avoided a life altering injury. The weak point of the Bosch is that you can fire it right back up and keep cutting, which is a terrible plan.

But, the other way around is if you have just one saw/blade, if you destroy the saw/blade you won't be able to finish the job, but if you loose a hand, you still have another hand and a functioning saw, so you will be able to work thru and get the job done.  If you have saw stop, you may have both hands, but you have no saw and can't complete the job. Do you want to risk upsetting the customer or being late on a job?

Offline Chris Perren

  • Posts: 136
Re: Saw Shield -- New Finger-saving Technology for Table Saws and Band Saws
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2020, 12:03 AM »
I'm with the skeptics - I want to see some reviews before I'm buying it.
Add me as a skeptic too.  I suspect this is not going very far.  Hopefully nobody looses their money. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2396
Re: Saw Shield -- New Finger-saving Technology for Table Saws and Band Saws
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2020, 01:16 AM »

I will add that the fact that the SawStop destroys your blade is meaningless because you still have your hand, all fingers and only need a band aid. If it does trigger and you have to buy a new brake and blade you will not care. The plus to it is you are forced to stand down until you can replace them, which you need to do when you have avoided a life altering injury. The weak point of the Bosch is that you can fire it right back up and keep cutting, which is a terrible plan.

But, the other way around is if you have just one saw/blade, if you destroy the saw/blade you won't be able to finish the job, but if you loose a hand, you still have another hand and a functioning saw, so you will be able to work thru and get the job done.  If you have saw stop, you may have both hands, but you have no saw and can't complete the job. Do you want to risk upsetting the customer or being late on a job?

For many SawStop users, the finger-saving tech is an insurance policy. For businesses,  they should keep a spare cartridge. I'm sure no cabinet shops have only one blade around  (I have 4, including the stock blade that came with the saw, still new and never used). If the SawStop fires, still happy ending for both the shop and customers. [big grin]
« Last Edit: December 15, 2020, 01:19 AM by ChuckM »

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7237
Re: Saw Shield -- New Finger-saving Technology for Table Saws and Band Saws
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2020, 01:32 AM »
Data supplied by SawStop concerning the number of table saw units sold and the number of reported blade contact incidences, demonstrates that operators are nearly five times more likely to contact the saw blade of a SawStop saw as opposed to the operator of a conventional table saw.

I think that's mostly an increase in reported contacts. Fact is, if you touch the SawStop, it triggers and you have to get a new cartridge. But if you touch a normal saw's blade, nothing gets reported unless it is an injury worth going to the hospital. As dangerous as a saw blade is, I am sure there is also a very large number of contacts where there is no damage at all or only minor nicks not worth mentioning.


The first time you use a table saw, you are nervous.  Of course your shop teacher or father/mother told you how dangerous it is when you learned how to use it. But over time, you get used to it. 

I must be a special kind of coward then, when I fire up that thing, I am still as nervous as I was the first time.  [unsure]

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 1910
Re: Saw Shield -- New Finger-saving Technology for Table Saws and Band Saws
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2020, 06:26 AM »
"The weak point of the Bosch is that you can fire it right back up and keep cutting, which is a terrible plan."

Is that true? I thought you had to remove the cartridge and flip it over to use it a second time. Plus you have
to manually raise the blade back up into the operating position which requires you manually release a lock
mechanism. If I am right that does force a time out during which you have to flip the cartridge which is not
unlike SawStop. If you have a spare blade and cartridge for the SawStop you can be back in business in a few
minutes as I see it. Same with the ReAXX after you flip the cartridge, blade is not damaged supposedly.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2020, 06:39 AM by Bob D. »
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline Gerald_D

  • Posts: 355
Re: Saw Shield -- New Finger-saving Technology for Table Saws and Band Saws
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2020, 07:28 AM »

I must be a special kind of coward then, when I fire up that thing, I am still as nervous as I was the first time.  [unsure]
[/quote]


I with you Alex- a saw that can cut through hardwoods like butter always has my full and undivided attention.  I don't have a SawStop (yet) but would still not trust it by getting my fingers too close.  I don't care how reliable the technology is- I'm not trusting it.

Regards,
Gerald
Gerald
I have Festools- Big and Small and a few other tools

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2396
Re: Saw Shield -- New Finger-saving Technology for Table Saws and Band Saws
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2020, 09:52 AM »

Snip.
I don't care how reliable the technology is- I'm not trusting it.

Regards,
Gerald

That's the right attitude to have when using a SawStop or a power tool. Any SawStop users who behave recklessly just because they're protected by the finger-saving tech will sooner or later get hurt or maimed by using some other machines that require proper safety behavior and attitude.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2020, 10:05 AM by ChuckM »

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 2042
Re: Saw Shield -- New Finger-saving Technology for Table Saws and Band Saws
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2020, 09:53 AM »
I'm always kind of stunned by the number of posters who seem to think that most people who buy a Sawstop are doing it so that they don't have to pay attention when they are using the tablesaw. I really doubt that is the case. Couldn't the reason for buying a Sawstop be that, because users have so much respect for the damage a tablesaw can do, they just want that extra safety edge so that they know if they ever do make a mistake it won't be a finger eliminating mistake? I know that's the reason I bought one. Sure I never had a finger endangering accident on a tablesaw because I am careful and attentive and use the safest practices I can. However, what's the point of taking a chance that someday you will, in fact, just not be quite as attentive or some rare unexpected event happens on the saw or the law of averages finally catches up with you? I don't know about how effective this new technology but I do know the Sawstop tech works.  Is the cost of replacing the blade and cartridge a little high? In comparison to losing a finger or serious injury to a hand . . . not really. I'm not interested in a discussion about this really. It's just my opinion about being safe and the chance, no matter how small, that I might one day make a mistake. None of us is perfect.
Randy

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1261
Re: Saw Shield -- New Finger-saving Technology for Table Saws and Band Saws
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2020, 10:37 AM »
Folks don't buy safety items to become reckless,  they buy them because they see/know/understand/fear the danger.  It's what those systems do to us after we have them that is the issue.  People slowly become less careful/attentive/etc as the danger has been reduced/mitigated/etc.  It's not a change that folks actively do, it creeps in slowly to where we don't think about it any more. You can look around you and see people using the safety features all the time on items when they shouldn't be, lots of items on cars, sticking hands in elevators doors to get in there (they know it will open back up), etc.

It doesn't mean this happens in every case, but it very much happens.  It's how people later get injured, they got so use to a safety system they begin to forget about it, be less careful, and/or if when needed one day it doesn't function right, they have let their guard down.

No one is just going to over night not care about the blade, it's a danger people see very clearly.  But even if they don't consciously think it, most will over time be less fearful because they know the tech is there, they will be more likely to push just a bit closer, even if they don't think they are.

If you are business, the best path would pound safety in like a crazed shop teacher, yet have saw stop in the saws, but find a way the employees can't tell it's there. That is one of the downsides with it, you know a saw has it.  If you had no way to know, you would always think of the horror stories.

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 8157
Re: Saw Shield -- New Finger-saving Technology for Table Saws and Band Saws
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2020, 11:44 AM »
I'm with the skeptics - I want to see some reviews before I'm buying it.

As is said, "The road to heck is paved with good intentions." This could be just one of those moments.  [tongue]

This is a photo of the brake cartridge, nothing special from the outside and also not particularly confidence inspiring. For this product to work 2 things have to happen, the brake pucks must actuate properly and neither them or the brake cartridge can be ripped from its mountings.




Keeping the above in mind, I then ran across these FAQ's on the Saw Shield website.

Is Saw Shield compatible with my table saw?

After ordering, you will receive an email asking you the make and model of your saw. We will use this information to provide you with an installation bracket designed to fit your saw. We have saw specific brackets already designed for many table saws. However, if we don't have a bracket designed for your table saw, we will work with you to make one.

How do I install the dado cartridge?

The dado cartridge simply snaps into place, and can be easily installed in under a minute while changing blades.


I don't know about others, but to me, these statements are also not very confidence inspiring. I guess I'll wait until the summer of 2021 to sign up for this program.