Author Topic: Sautershop MFT boring plate Vario-Master  (Read 3210 times)

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Offline Tom Gensmer

  • Posts: 788
  • Residential Remodeler in Minnesota
Sautershop MFT boring plate Vario-Master
« on: January 10, 2022, 11:52 AM »
I saw this in my inbox days ago and am surprised it hasn't popped on the FOG yet. Available through SauterShop, it appears to be a pretty straightforward method for boring a 20mm x 96mm grid pattern in a top, without the issues introduced with compound error in systems that rely on indexing a smaller template on previously bored holes.

At 1200mm x 800mm this is larger than a standard MFT/3 top, and I see no reason a person can't easily center or index the template for a MFT.

Note that the holes are 30.2mm diameter, which should perfectly accommodate a 30mm bushing. Also note that the assembly does away with using the 20mm holes for alignment (I never did fully understand the desire to use holes which are destined to get fouled or wallowed-out as a precision setup system), instead relying on a different set of holes for track alignment, which has the added benefit of allowing a variety of angles to be quickly and accurately used.

This top style has been sold by Sautershop for years, it's just the template which is new.

I've ordered plenty of tools, parts and accessories from SauterShop and found them to be a great resource, easy to work with and straightforward international shipping.

https://www.sautershop.com/multifunctional-tables/diy-multifunctional-tables/vario-master-mft-steel-template/
« Last Edit: January 10, 2022, 11:55 AM by Tom Gensmer »
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Offline DynaGlide

  • Posts: 1377
Re: Sautershop MFT boring plate Vario-Master
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2022, 01:58 PM »
@Tom Gensmer

That's pretty slick. I could see a group of guys going in on that and sharing it amongst themselves for their needs.

Shipping must be awful on it though.
Instagram @matts.garage

Offline m-tribe

  • Posts: 15
Re: Sautershop MFT boring plate Vario-Master
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2022, 06:43 PM »
The template feature is only part of the functionality. As pointed out by Tom, the interesting feature is that the threaded holes are used to locate the bench dogs - not the 20 mm holes - and that feature cannot be shared.

Exactly. You can also mount everything like (self made) fences from the bench top - no need anymore to crawl underneath the bench to find some holes for the screws.




Offline m-tribe

  • Posts: 15
Re: Sautershop MFT boring plate Vario-Master
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2022, 06:50 PM »
thats the way it works (I try to add an image)

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 2496
Re: Sautershop MFT boring plate Vario-Master
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2022, 08:29 PM »
The template feature is only part of the functionality. As pointed out by Tom, the interesting feature is that the threaded holes are used to locate the bench dogs - not the 20 mm holes - and that feature cannot be shared.
I don't understand. Isn't it just a template? Cut holes and remove it? You don't leave in place, do you?

Offline xedos

  • Posts: 575
Re: Sautershop MFT boring plate Vario-Master
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2022, 08:56 AM »
Why would anyone want to (semi) permanently attach their dog to a top?

 Maybe I’m just dense, but I don’t really see the purpose/advantage to this or their jig. 

Offline DynaGlide

  • Posts: 1377
Re: Sautershop MFT boring plate Vario-Master
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2022, 09:55 AM »
@box185 Oh I see. So if you need to make a 90, you thread some dogs into those special holes and it's repeatable and never changes. Or if you want to attach a fence, it's always going to register square.
Instagram @matts.garage

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 9675
Re: Sautershop MFT boring plate Vario-Master
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2022, 11:46 AM »
An interesting variation on the dog/dog hole theme. It kind of solves several issues at the same time.

Offline DynaGlide

  • Posts: 1377
Re: Sautershop MFT boring plate Vario-Master
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2022, 11:50 AM »
My TrackTubes top has dedicated holes for the fence and 90 degree cuts so they don't get wallowed out from use:



Just another option.
Instagram @matts.garage

Offline m-tribe

  • Posts: 15
Re: Sautershop MFT boring plate Vario-Master
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2022, 12:24 PM »
I saw this in my inbox days ago and am surprised it hasn't popped on the FOG yet. Available through SauterShop, it appears to be a pretty straightforward method for boring a 20mm x 96mm grid pattern in a top, without the issues introduced with compound error in systems that rely on indexing a smaller template on previously bored holes.

At 1200mm x 800mm this is larger than a standard MFT/3 top, and I see no reason a person can't easily center or index the template for a MFT.

Note that the holes are 30.2mm diameter, which should perfectly accommodate a 30mm bushing. Also note that the assembly does away with using the 20mm holes for alignment (I never did fully understand the desire to use holes which are destined to get fouled or wallowed-out as a precision setup system), instead relying on a different set of holes for track alignment, which has the added benefit of allowing a variety of angles to be quickly and accurately used.
....

Great to see that you share the same understanding of precision and immediately understood the ideas behind the Various-Master MFT. I always wanted to have the Vario-Bench like this for the exact reason that steel is the better option for alignment tasks and MDF is perfect to cut into it (and being replaced when needed). It took me a while to find a production method which is somehow affordable. And you are right on the the diameter of the larger holes as well which are indeed made for a 30mm bushing (there is a spacer available which works perfectly with an OF1400 and a 30mm bushing attached to it). But easy to be done by yourself. So with this you can be very fast and also quite precise but you don't even need to be precise because the precision is provided by the steel plate as you said. br mika (Vario-Bench designer & chief evangelist)

Offline m-tribe

  • Posts: 15
Re: Sautershop MFT boring plate Vario-Master
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2022, 12:40 PM »
@box185 Oh I see. So if you need to make a 90, you thread some dogs into those special holes and it's repeatable and never changes. Or if you want to attach a fence, it's always going to register square.

Yes - the 7.5mm holes drilled in the MDF provide access to the M6 threaded holes in the Vario-Master located below. The precise location and size of the 7.5mm holes do not affect the location of the Sautershop dogs. The template holes allow you to make 20mm holes quickly and easily in a new top for the MFT/3 when needed. These holes are then used for clamping - as Festool intended ( Festool does not specify the accuracy / precision of the 20mm holes in their MFT/3 top.
exactly - btw: doesn't need to be 7,5mm. This is in fact bit narrow. Everything between 8-10mm is perfectly fine. Its more a personal choice rather than a requirement and depends a little bit how precise you can convert the hole position of the M6 holes in the steel plate to the MDF table top. With this little optional jig - see image its quite precise but you could do this free handed then I would go for 9mm holes.

Offline DynaGlide

  • Posts: 1377
Re: Sautershop MFT boring plate Vario-Master
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2022, 01:22 PM »
@m-tribe I'd love to see one of these in person but I'm scared the shipping internationally of something this size would be astronomical. Thanks for posting up here.
Instagram @matts.garage

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 2496
Re: Sautershop MFT boring plate Vario-Master
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2022, 01:37 PM »
I'm a bit skeptical about threaded stud providing perfect repetitive positioning. Threaded connection always have a bit of lateral play. This is why precision positioning pins in machinery always have partially smooth shaft going into a reamed hole, and the thread is just for securing it in place. But this is woodworking, so I'm just splitting hairs.

Offline m-tribe

  • Posts: 15
Re: Sautershop MFT boring plate Vario-Master
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2022, 01:57 PM »
@m-tribe I'd love to see one of these in person but I'm scared the shipping internationally of something this size would be astronomical. Thanks for posting up here.

not sure. You might want to ask Sautershop. O.K. it won't be directly cheap. A reseller for the US would be nice. I think if shipped in larger quantities it won't be an issue. Any ideas ? Or somebody to license the IP behind.

Offline m-tribe

  • Posts: 15
Re: Sautershop MFT boring plate Vario-Master
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2022, 02:09 PM »
I'm a bit skeptical about threaded stud providing perfect repetitive positioning. Threaded connection always have a bit of lateral play. This is why precision positioning pins in machinery always have partially smooth shaft going into a reamed hole, and the thread is just for securing it in place. But this is woodworking, so I'm just splitting hairs.

threads are principally self centering and in combination with the relatively large bottom surface of the screw-dogs they always mount in the same place as they want to be perpendicular to the bench top. Even if I try I don't manage to mount them differently.

Offline m-tribe

  • Posts: 15
Re: Sautershop MFT boring plate Vario-Master
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2022, 02:37 PM »
I don’t need to see one in person - I would first like a video from Sautershop demonstrating a five cut test, then go from there.


you know this one: ?
Thats with the Vario-Bench classic i.e. the MDF version. Apologies for my poor video capabilities - but I think the result of the five cut test is quite good.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 2496
Re: Sautershop MFT boring plate Vario-Master
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2022, 11:15 PM »
The issues I have with the Vario-Master are:
1) the 100 mm hole spacing ( both template and dog holes )
What's wrong with even 100 mm spacing? I had it on my bench for years and haven't found a single reason to have 96 mm instead.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2022, 11:18 PM by Svar »

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 9675
Re: Sautershop MFT boring plate Vario-Master
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2022, 11:35 AM »

The issue for me is that I have two other “useful to me” tools that require a 96 mm hole spacing.


You could just fab an adapter plate...96mm spacing on the top to receive the "useful to me" tools and 100mm spacing on the bottom for the Vario-Master. I've done that with several vises so I can mount them anywhere on the table.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2022, 04:26 PM by Cheese »

Offline m-tribe

  • Posts: 15
Re: Sautershop MFT boring plate Vario-Master
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2022, 04:08 PM »
An interesting variation on the dog/dog hole theme. It kind of solves several issues at the same time.

This "interesting variation" with the threaded holes is something that I have not seen before.

The issues I have with the Vario-Master are:

1) the 100 mm hole spacing ( both template and dog holes )
>>>do you really need these devices if there is already a built in option for defining angles ?

2) the threaded hole feature is only available for a single size bench ( template holes can be used for any size bench )
>>> I think the Vario-Master MFT used as a template is the moste accurate way to build a larger MFT with the 20mm holes even if you then can't use the threaded holes for each and every project. With all these smaller templates your are constantly replicating/adding errors.

3) the "many angles" feature because the TSO MTR-18 is a more flexible option ( already have that )
>>>not sure. At least you don't have individual positions for every angle. Reading errors still can happen.

I also have a question about material thickness - the specifications indicate a 2mm template thickness and 4mm thread depth ( ? )
>>>if you want to use the screw dogs the thickness of your bench top should be between 17 and19mm. If you build your own fences etc. you can use screws in whatever length and therefore all sorts of slab thicknesses

This last question is moot since 1 and 2 ( above ) mean that I will not be ordering one as offered now.

@DynaGlide : 226 euro for the basic top and 199 euro for shipping to the US


Offline afish

  • Posts: 1275
Re: Sautershop MFT boring plate Vario-Master
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2022, 06:52 AM »
My next top I was actually planning on installing T-nuts like the ones below In a similar pattern centered in the middle of the 20mm holes.  This way I can make and have fixtures/jigs that screw down to the bench and would help reduce the number of clamps since it doesnt seem to matter how many clamps you have its never enough. They even have them in 8mm so for those who insist on still using dogs for cutting you could have a couple dogs that screw in from the top.  They do make some t-nuts that attach with screws instead of prongs but they are considerably more expensive. We used to just add a couple screws from the back side in the corners of the prongs if we were worried about them pushing out but as long as you undersize the hole a touch and drive them in they are pretty much staying put. 


**EDIT** Actually just found THESE and the price is good.  Looks like you would want to probably get some shorter screws to minimize the risk of catching one with the blade if you accidently cut to deep.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2022, 07:01 AM by afish »