Author Topic: Router Lifts and Quick Change Chucks / Collets (Read 6978 times)

dlu · « **on:** February 11, 2019, 03:54 PM »

I'm trying to streamline my work at the router table and I'm thinking about getting a quick change chuck or collet for my PC 7518 which is mounted in an Incra (modified Jessem) Mast-R-Lift II.

I'm open to suggestions, but am currently leaning towards the MuscleChuck. They are available in a standard and an extended version. Any experience with this setup? Advice on which way to go? I'm leaning towards the standard length chuck since I can get the PC chuck above the table for bit changes, but I was wondering if the longer one would make it even easier. My concern with the longer chuck is loss of capacity for shallow cuts with a long bit and perhaps more runout and/or vibration.

JD2720 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 11, 2019, 07:47 PM »

I have been using the several of the MuscleChucks for many years on Porter Cable & Bosch routers, in & out of router tables.
I have nothing bad to say about them. They work great.

TealaG · « **Reply #2 on:** February 20, 2019, 08:43 PM »

I've been looking for a product like this but never knew what to call it! I've been using an "extender" because I can't deal with the two wrenches, but that caused other issues. This shorter chuck thing sounds great.

Curious why you didn't consider the Eliminator by Infinity. Seems like the price is similar. I'm wondering if you know something I don't.

dlu · « **Reply #3 on:** February 20, 2019, 10:15 PM »

Quote from: TealaG on February 20, 2019, 08:43 PM

Curious why you didn't consider the Eliminator by Infinity. Seems like the price is similar. I'm wondering if you know something I don't.

I don't know much... There are a few chucks on the market that seem very similar to the Musclechuck - both in design concept, the details of execution, and price. Joe DeRosa has (although it may no longer be providing him with any protection) a patent on the design, so I would guess that the others are either relabeled Musclechucks or pretty blatant copies of his design.

The company has been great to deal with and since it looks pretty close to a wash price wise, I figured I'd rather have my money going to the inventor. It also makes me feel better about asking them questions. As an aside, I just went and checked out the Infinity offering and the reviews of Infinity's customer service are not glowing. So that would be another reason.

rst · « **Reply #4 on:** February 21, 2019, 08:58 AM »

I've been using the Eliminator since it was first released on my PC 7518 in my router table. It has worked great for me all these years.

Cheese · « **Reply #5 on:** February 21, 2019, 11:47 AM »

Wow, never knew these existed.

If I understand correctly, this could be a way of fitting a 1/2" diameter cutter into a 1010 router?

For those who have installed this in their routers, did you adjust the MuscleChuck for minimum runout?

FWIW...
Watching the video, on a stock PC router they had .001" runout, after adding the MC, it brought it to .0035" runout, turning the MC 1/4 turn CW it now became .0055" runout and then finally, turning the MC 1/2 turn CCW it settled back down to .001" runout.

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #6 on:** February 21, 2019, 02:44 PM »

How does a Musclechuck fit a Festool OF 1010? I didn’t see any 8mm adapter listed, but that kind of info is surprisingly scant at his site.

greg mann · « **Reply #7 on:** February 21, 2019, 07:07 PM »

Quote from: Michael Kellough on February 21, 2019, 02:44 PM

How does a Musclechuck fit a Festool OF 1010? I didn’t see any 8mm adapter listed, but that kind of info is surprisingly scant at his site.

If I had to guess I would say the 1010 listing is a mistake. There is no way the same chuck would fit a 1010 and a 2200. The chuck’s best feature is that it has a tapered body that fits into the spindle taper just like a standard collet would and is secured with a threaded element that emulates a collet nut. This makes the whole unit pretty much a monolithic extension of the spindle. This is much better than a shanked extension held in a standard collet into which a router bit shank is inserted. The least rigid point of the latter is that shank inserted into the standard collet. The muscle chuck does away with this weak point. I think of it as an ‘over spindle adapter’ as opposed to an’in the spindle adapter’.

All of this does not mean a muscle chuck couldn’t be designed around an OF1010 but I don’t see any way it could work with anything larger than an 8mm shank (maybe 10mm).

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #8 on:** February 21, 2019, 08:07 PM »

Thanks for the explanation Greg. Didn’t understand how the thing worked but now it’s even more interesting. Disappointing though that it probably doesn’t fit the 1010.

Cheese · « **Reply #9 on:** February 21, 2019, 09:24 PM »

Well unfortunately, none of the non-users of this product know how this contraption works because the website is a cluster as far as explaining the basic design principles behind this accessory.

This was the reason for my shout out to the users so that we could start a conversation.
If you go to the website they list the same adapter is needed for the 1010, the 1400 and the 2200...we know that’s BS.

I then also looked at Milwaukee routers which I also own and the 3 1/4 HP version only comes with a 3/8” collet. Well we know that’s also crazy.

I came away with the idea that each adapter is manufactured to fit its particular router and then the MuscleChuck is counterbored to fit a 1/2” diameter router bit. That’s the reason different router collets are offered, and none are over 12 mm. If this is indeed the situation, it’s a pretty slick setup.

dlu · « **Reply #10 on:** February 22, 2019, 12:26 AM »

I think you have that right. The Musclechuck itself is 1/2" only - with collet reducers for 6, 8 and 12 mm and 1/8", 1/4" and 3/8".

I asked them about the 1010 and got a reply that they thought that was a mistake - I suggested they remove the 1010 from their list, but for some reason they haven't done so. I think there are a lot of small companies that contract out their webmaster work and I wonder if it is a question of the cost of getting someone to do the work or the possibility that that person is no longer around...

Anyway, I've been super happy with the quality of the product and the support that they provide.

They offer to produce custom chucks (and custom sized collets) - I wonder if they could/would produce one for the 1010 and 700 if we showed them enough potential volume.

Cheese · « **Reply #11 on:** February 22, 2019, 08:35 AM »

Quote from: dlu on February 22, 2019, 12:26 AM

I think you have that right. The Musclechuck itself is 1/2" only - with collet reducers for 6, 8 and 12 mm and 1/8", 1/4" and 3/8".

I asked them about the 1010 and got a reply that they thought that was a mistake

Well thanks for the input.

I'll drop them an email and ask about the 1010. It would be a sweet way to use that odd 1/2" router bit on a 1010.

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #12 on:** February 22, 2019, 10:19 AM »

@Cheese According to the website, he’s welcomes phone calls.

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #13 on:** February 22, 2019, 10:26 AM »

Thinking about the Musclechuck on an OF 1010,
it could be a benefit to use a small 1/2” bit in that compact plunge router.

The extra 1/2” of collet isn’t a big deal since the stock collet can already plunge to the bottom of the base.

Even faster bit change would be the prime benefit and if run out can be minimized it would be worth it.

TealaG · « **Reply #14 on:** February 22, 2019, 12:09 PM »

I agree that the website doesn't explain the concept well. I have the xtreme xtension and when I saw the muscle chuck, I thought something was "missing". Yeah...this thing doesn't go in like a router bit. This muscle chuck replaces the collet nut and collet! I love the idea and hope it works.

I'm struggling with standard two wrench bit changes (and as a result avoid using my router, even though I love the result). So use of an allen wrench...one tool, to change the bit is very appealing to me. I finally got that xtreme thing working but I can't lower the bit below the table. Now that I use the router table as an "extension" of the table saw table, not being able to lower the bit is now a huge problem, thus, why I started searching for a shorter alternative.

I find that the "basic" package at $106 is ridiculous. I found the same wrench for $3 (or a premium one for $7) and an insert for the 1/4" bits for $13 (though, I may be able to reuse the one that came with the xtreme) and then the chuck for $70. Now at closer to $90, I'm happier. There's no need to over charge for a collet reducing thingie and a wrench!!!

JimH2 · « **Reply #15 on:** February 22, 2019, 01:57 PM »

Quote from: TealaG on February 22, 2019, 12:09 PM

I agree that the website doesn't explain the concept well. I have the xtreme xtension and when I saw the muscle chuck, I thought something was "missing". Yeah...this thing doesn't go in like a router bit. This muscle chuck replaces the collet nut and collet! I love the idea and hope it works.

I'm struggling with standard two wrench bit changes (and as a result avoid using my router, even though I love the result). So use of an allen wrench...one tool, to change the bit is very appealing to me. I finally got that xtreme thing working but I can't lower the bit below the table. Now that I use the router table as an "extension" of the table saw table, not being able to lower the bit is now a huge problem, thus, why I started searching for a shorter alternative.

I find that the "basic" package at $106 is ridiculous. I found the same wrench for $3 (or a premium one for $7) and an insert for the 1/4" bits for $13 (though, I may be able to reuse the one that came with the xtreme) and then the chuck for $70. Now at closer to $90, I'm happier. There's no need to over charge for a collet reducing thingie and a wrench!!!

Are you really kibitzing over $90? The man has invented something useful and high quality and is wanting to recoup his development costs. I'd reevaluate staying in the hobby (If that is what it is for you. It's not for me) if $16 is an issue. I seriously doubt the $13 insert is of the same quality as his. Take a look at the videos and compare it to yours. Everyone here appreciates the value of a system and this system has multiple parts that are designed to work together (less the wrench). It this exact mentality of trying to save a nickel on every last item that hurts US companies and discourages them from creating new products.

dlu · « **Reply #16 on:** February 22, 2019, 09:21 PM »

Interesting comment by @Svar in the Musclechuck, any one using it? thread - quick summary is that while traditional tapered collet designs will naturally center bits with slightly differing shank diameters, designs like the Musclechuck seem to depend on accurately and consistently sized bit shanks. I wonder how much variation there is in bits from good vendors (e.g., Whiteside, CMT, etc.) and how much is tolerable.

grbmds · « **Reply #17 on:** February 23, 2019, 12:35 AM »

Seems like a high quality product developed by a guy who seems very serious about providing a good product. Tell me, though, why do you need a quick change chuck? I use the PC7518 in an Incra table with an Incra Master Lift. It doesn't seem that difficult to change bits.

I never discourage buying a new tool; just wondering what I'm missing.

dlu · « **Reply #18 on:** February 23, 2019, 03:23 AM »

Quote from: grbmds on February 23, 2019, 12:35 AM

Tell me, though, why do you need a quick change chuck? I use the PC7518 in an Incra table with an Incra Master Lift. It doesn't seem that difficult to change bits.

Need is a high bar, as you say it is not that difficult to change bits in that combination, but...

What I noticed was that I found myself looking for ways to avoid changing bits, so it seemed worth checking out one of the quick change chucks. Given Musclechuck's 30-day money back guarantee, it seemed like there was little to lose. So far, I'm quite happy with it and I like the idea of having a single tool that could be used for changing bits on any of my routers.

Oldwood · « **Reply #19 on:** February 23, 2019, 06:53 AM »

This video explains the quick change collet quite well. Got me thinking about one.

https://www.finewoodworking.com/2015/03/06/quick-change-collets-make-routing-easier?source=W1724ENL&tp=i-H43-BC-Dtk-fUKS0-1o-zBo-1c-fUK3X-1Ukuzv&sourcekey=W1724ENL&utm_campaign=fine-woodworking-eletter&utm_source=eletter&utm_medium=eletter&utm_content=fw_eletter&cid=53428&mid=613058232

TealaG · « **Reply #20 on:** February 23, 2019, 08:33 AM »

Thanks for the video reference!!! Ok, this explains why I need the overpriced insert. It also says I can let the bit bottom out (yeah!). Sold.

Cheese · « **Reply #21 on:** February 23, 2019, 08:53 AM »

Quote from: Michael Kellough on February 22, 2019, 10:19 AM

@Cheese According to the website, he’s welcomes phone calls.

Hey @Michael Kellough , I sent them an email Friday morning, haven't received a reply yet. If I don't hear from them on Monday, I'll give them a call on Tuesday.

After watching the Fine Woodworking video, I have my doubts that this thing fits a 1010. I think dlu was correct, when he said the website is incorrect.

Cheese · « **Reply #22 on:** February 23, 2019, 10:59 AM »

Quote from: Cheese on February 23, 2019, 08:53 AM

After watching the Fine Woodworking video, I have my doubts that this thing fits a 1010. I think dlu was correct, when he said the website is incorrect.

Well...color me wrong on this issue.

Just received a reply from Joe at DeRosa Engineering, the manufacturer of Musclechuck.

ME: Your website lists a Type 2 Musclechuck being available for a Festool 1010 router, is that correct?

JOE: Yes the Festool 1010EQ takes a type 2 Musclechuck.

ME: So that means that a Festool 1010 could use a 1/2” diameter router bit?

JOE: Yes the Musclechuck itself is 1/2 inch so you would get a type 2 Musclechuck screw it on the router and be able to use 1/2 bits with no additional inserts.

That's sweet.

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #23 on:** February 23, 2019, 11:21 AM »

He sells those at Amazon too where the reviews are mediocre due to about half the buyers saying the chuck didn’t actually fit the router it purported to, so it would probably be best to buy directly from De Rosa where returns are accepted for any reason and refund includes shipping.

dlu · « **Reply #24 on:** February 23, 2019, 10:36 PM »

Quote from: Cheese on February 23, 2019, 10:59 AM

Quote from: Cheese on February 23, 2019, 08:53 AM
After watching the Fine Woodworking video, I have my doubts that this thing fits a 1010. I think dlu was correct, when he said the website is incorrect.

Well...color me wrong on this issue.

Just received a reply from Joe at DeRosa Engineering, the manufacturer of Musclechuck.

ME: Your website lists a Type 2 Musclechuck being available for a Festool 1010 router, is that correct?

JOE: Yes the Festool 1010EQ takes a type 2 Musclechuck.

ME: So that means that a Festool 1010 could use a 1/2” diameter router bit?

JOE: Yes the Musclechuck itself is 1/2 inch so you would get a type 2 Musclechuck screw it on the router and be able to use 1/2 bits with no additional inserts.

That's sweet.

I would really like to join you in the wrongness - but it just doesn't make sense to me that the Type 2 Musclechuck could fit both the 1400 (and 2200) and the 1100. The collets look dramatically different - I suppose I could go compare them, but the dog is asleep with his head on my lap...

Cheese · « **Reply #25 on:** February 23, 2019, 11:12 PM »

Lesson # 1 ...Don’t disturb the pooch.

I agree with you, misery loves company and I don’t want to be the only fool in this thread.

I’ll order one from DeRosa Engineering and see what shakes out.

dlu · « **Reply #26 on:** February 24, 2019, 12:46 AM »

Quote from: Cheese on February 23, 2019, 11:12 PM

I’ll order one from DeRosa Engineering and see what shakes out.

Be careful - it it's the bit that could get ugly

jdnz · « **Reply #27 on:** August 21, 2019, 05:20 AM »

Quote from: Cheese on February 23, 2019, 11:12 PM

I’ll order one from DeRosa Engineering and see what shakes out.

Would love to know if this worked out. Did you end up ordering it?

JKM · « **Reply #28 on:** March 17, 2023, 05:14 PM »

Quote from: Cheese on February 23, 2019, 11:12 PM

I’ll order one from DeRosa Engineering and see what shakes out

@Cheese did you ever manage to install the type 2 musclechuck in an of1010?
It would be great to hear if this worked out?

Thanks

Crazyraceguy · « **Reply #29 on:** March 17, 2023, 06:32 PM »

This is why I love Triton routers. It's a plunge router with a simple lift mechanism built-in and it locks the spindle at full height, which is above the table. Simple one wrench operation.

Cheese · « **Reply #30 on:** March 17, 2023, 09:04 PM »

Quote from: JKM on March 17, 2023, 05:14 PM

@Cheese did you ever manage to install the type 2 musclechuck in an of1010?
It would be great to hear if this worked out?

First off...

...to the FOG.

Second...sorry to disappoint but I did not.

Just one of those things that got away from me while I was drinking the Musclechuck cool aid.

Thanks for bringing it back up though as I may revisit the issue once I clean out the internal cobwebs.

Grev · « **Reply #31 on:** March 18, 2023, 11:35 AM »

Quote from: JimH2 on February 22, 2019, 01:57 PM

Quote from: TealaG on February 22, 2019, 12:09 PM
I agree that the website doesn't explain the concept well. I have the xtreme xtension and when I saw the muscle chuck, I thought something was "missing". Yeah...this thing doesn't go in like a router bit. This muscle chuck replaces the collet nut and collet! I love the idea and hope it works.

I've used the Musclechuck for years and prefer it over a bit extender, but it does need to be calibrated .. as mentioned below. In designing a router sled, I have been working with Joe De Rosa to design an extended collet for the Triton Router. I already have an extended collet on my OF2200, but haven't thought of trying it on my OF1400. The one thing that is important with the MC is to calibrate it with a dial gauge to achieve the minimum runout possible. This is a simple process that does require a dial gauge. I use a short section of WoodRiver t-track, clamping one end to the base and the other and to the dial gauge. I am now about to test 4 different bit extenders in the same manner ... just curious if there is a significant difference in the runout of the different bit extenders. I'll be glad to post about what my findings are.

usernumber1 · « **Reply #32 on:** March 18, 2023, 02:36 PM »

they have a picture of the 1400 on their site

https://www.musclechuck.com/about/

Going to order some on Monday because they have a solution for a Milwaukee 5625-20. The infinity tools / eliminator / specifically says they don't make one https://www.infinitytools.com/eliminator-quick-change-router-chucks

Little concerned that 1010 might protrude too low for some of my bits when you add the reducing collet as well. But then again I can use 1/2 bits on a 1010 (

)

Crazyraceguy · « **Reply #33 on:** March 18, 2023, 07:44 PM »

The point of the Infinity Extreme is the "one tool" aspect. You end up with some extension as a result of it, but that's not really the goal, just a side-effect.
I have an extension that is similar to the CMT, but that was for a specific depth situation. It still takes 2 wrenches, so no advantage other than the length. So far it has only been a one-time-use thing, but it's in the arsenal, ready.

The Muscle Chuck seems like a similar bit holding method, with a different mounting to the router.
The Infinity being more universal, and the other potentially more rigid, but limited to certain models.

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #34 on:** March 19, 2023, 12:58 PM »

I’ve ordered the regular Muscle Chuck for both PC 7518 and Bosch 1617 (two different chucks).

In addition to the other benefits people have mentioned the fact that the MC clamps the bit laterally rather than pulling the bit down as the collet nut is tightened means a bit can be bottomed out before tightening. If you have a reliable means of determining the distance of the router to the base (as in a router lift with digital read out) then you could change bits and come back to the original bit without the usual annoying trial and error fiddling.

The regular MC is hollow so the bit shank has to be long to bottom out in the spindle/shaft. I wonder if the MC extended version is also hollow? It looks long enough that a bit could bottom in the MC if it is closed.

Sommerfeld says to put an O-ring into the shaft for the bit to bottom against. He (Kreg’s brother) says his matched bits (rail and stile for example) don’t require further fiddling but I’ve never trusted that.

rst · « **Reply #35 on:** March 19, 2023, 01:18 PM »

I've been using the original Eliminator chuck since it came out in the 90s on my PC 7518 in a Bench Dog router lift, also from the 90s. I've literally routed thousands of 3/8' - 2' x 2' cash register guards and other plastics for a reginal grocer along with making all the quarter sawn oak trim in my house. I don't even have to lock the spindle to tighten the chuck. I use a 1/4" adaptor in the chuck when necessary to use smaller bits. I made my table from 1 1/8' laminate faced particle board that was marketed back then for restaurant tables. The table is 49 x 30 and I have an Incra Wonder Fence on it and a Dust Router dual collection attached and use a Festool CMS twin hose attached to a 2 1/2 dia hose and get virtually no escaping chips. Welded angle table is closed on three sides with acrylic and front is open.

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #36 on:** March 19, 2023, 01:48 PM »

Thanks for the feedback on the Eliminator chuck @rst. Your Wonder Fence is across the 30” side? Are you using the Incra positioner?

I’ve a sorta similar setup, 7518 in a Bench Dog lift in a BD iron table (32x24) with BD fence with the same dust collection (now sold by MilesCraft).

I’m assembling a new setup with Woodpecker phenolic table and WP Super Fence and a Jointech SmartLift (has Wixey dro built-in). Was going to use another PC 7518 but will probably get a WP Spintech motor. Will try to install the MilesCraft dual dust collection.

And I just assembled a portable rig (but heavy) with Rockler phenolic table and R fence with Bosch 1617 in the Bosch inverted base.

rst · « **Reply #37 on:** March 19, 2023, 02:48 PM »

My fence is parallel to 49”, I would have liked a cast table but was not available when I did mine. I use Magswichs on my table saw as guides instead of feather boards. I’m using Magswitch 200 and 400 to position concealed continuous hinges on a pair of commercial steel doors as we speak

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #38 on:** March 21, 2023, 03:57 PM »

Quote from: rst on March 19, 2023, 02:48 PM

My fence is parallel to 49”, I would have liked a cast table but was not available when I did mine. I use Magswichs on my table saw as guides instead of feather boards. I’m using Magswitch 200 and 400 to position concealed continuous hinges on a pair of commercial steel doors as we speak

@rst how did you mount the Incra fence when it is so much shorter than the table?

I love using the MagSwitch things on the iron table. For that table I’ve been using some old (20th century) very heavy extrusion fence that pivots on one end and has to be clamped on the other. I set the pivot pin 12” from the bit and then make adjustments 12” away from the bit in the opposite direction. The movement of the fence relative to the bit is then 1/2 as much as the free end of the fence moves. When adjustment is needed I set a MagSwitch up against the fence on the opposite side of the direction it needs to go then unclamp the fence and put a feeler gauge between the MagSwitch and the fence and then re-clamp.

The new phenolic table will be a step back in that regard until Woodpecker gets the Micro-adjust unit back in stock.

rst · « **Reply #39 on:** March 21, 2023, 07:29 PM »

I attached pieces of 8020 10 series, the flat with two slots at either end and used the Wonderfence clamps. When I found 8020, I bought various extrusions to tinker.

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #40 on:** March 24, 2023, 12:10 PM »

I put the regular Muscle Chuck (only 1/4” longer than the stock collet) in a PC 7518. Used a 1/2” carbide spiral bit for checking vibration. Vibration seemed moderate to low and rotating the chuck to different positions didn’t make any difference that I could tell. Didn’t measure runout.

I’ll probably get the longer version too.

Tried this in the new/old SmartLift Digital (last produced over ten years ago) which proved the worth of the easy bit change because the crank for driving the lift is too short to use when a long bit is installed. Poor design. That’s not a problem with the easy Allen key chuck release. You don’t even need to raise the router up to wrench height.

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #41 on:** March 24, 2023, 04:19 PM »

I’m trying to find a genuine MC 1/4” collet online. Woodline says “the manufacturer is experiencing severe equipment difficulties” and that the “30 day delay” has been in effect for months with no end in sight.

Wrote DeRosa and am waiting…

Meanwhile I tried a Whiteside 1/4” collet/adapter and a 1/4” bit and barely got the bit tight and then it had visible runout. Have to check the straightness of the Chinese bit bit I suspect the problem is that the Whiteside collet is a full 2 thousands under 1/2” and the bit is 1 thou under 1/4”.

I had planned to test the MC with a 1/2” precision ground dowel but the fit is too tight.

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #42 on:** March 24, 2023, 11:06 PM »

Put the same Chinese bit in a 1/4” PC collet and the fit was good and snug. No more visible runout than the usual Chinese bit.

Maybe the MC is good but the Whiteside collet isn’t. Too small on the outside and too big inside. Could barely get the bit tight and runout was terrible.

Not the first time I’ve had an issue with a Whiteside product. My Collins Ply Prep bit (made by Whiteside) is supposed to have a hash mark in the middle of the cutter but mine is about 1/16” off.

I’ve ordered an Eliminator chuck too. The maker claims it is dynamically balanced. There is a bit of steel drilled out on the side opposite the screw. The MC does not, instead depending on its asymmetrical balance to be counteracted by idiosyncrasies in the router spindle, and you have to find the best arrangement. The MC wasn’t too bad with a simple 1/2” diameter straight bit but I’m beginning to have my doubts about it.