Author Topic: Router Lifts and Quick Change Chucks / Collets  (Read 2693 times)

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Offline dlu

  • Posts: 168
Router Lifts and Quick Change Chucks / Collets
« on: February 11, 2019, 03:54 PM »
I'm trying to streamline my work at the router table and I'm thinking about getting a quick change chuck or collet for my PC 7518 which is mounted in an Incra (modified Jessem) Mast-R-Lift II.

I'm open to suggestions, but am currently leaning towards the MuscleChuck. They are available in a standard and an extended version.  Any experience with this setup? Advice on which way to go? I'm leaning towards the standard length chuck since I can get the PC chuck above the table for bit changes, but I was wondering if the longer one would make it even easier. My concern with the longer chuck is loss of capacity for shallow cuts with a long bit and perhaps more runout and/or vibration.

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Offline JD2720

  • Posts: 1097
Re: Router Lifts and Quick Change Chucks / Collets
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2019, 07:47 PM »
I have been using the several of the MuscleChucks for many years on Porter Cable & Bosch routers, in & out of router tables.
I have nothing bad to say about them. They work great.

Offline TealaG

  • Posts: 112
Re: Router Lifts and Quick Change Chucks / Collets
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2019, 08:43 PM »
I've been looking for a product like this but never knew what to call it!  I've been using an "extender" because I can't deal with the two wrenches, but that caused other issues.   This shorter chuck thing sounds great.

Curious why you didn't consider the Eliminator by Infinity.   Seems like the price is similar.  I'm wondering if you know something I don't.   

Offline dlu

  • Posts: 168
Re: Router Lifts and Quick Change Chucks / Collets
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2019, 10:15 PM »
Curious why you didn't consider the Eliminator by Infinity.   Seems like the price is similar.  I'm wondering if you know something I don't.

I don't know much... There are a few chucks on the market that seem very similar to the Musclechuck - both in design concept, the details of execution, and price. Joe DeRosa has (although it may no longer be providing him with any protection) a patent on the design, so I would guess that the others are either relabeled Musclechucks or pretty blatant copies of his design.

The company has been great to deal with and since it looks pretty close to a wash price wise, I figured I'd rather have my money going to the inventor. It also makes me feel better about asking them questions. As an aside, I just went and checked out the Infinity offering and the reviews of Infinity's customer service are not glowing. So that would be another reason.

Offline rst

  • Posts: 2227
Re: Router Lifts and Quick Change Chucks / Collets
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2019, 08:58 AM »
I've been using the Eliminator since it was first released on my PC 7518 in my router table.  It has worked great for me all these years.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6383
Re: Router Lifts and Quick Change Chucks / Collets
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2019, 11:47 AM »
Wow, never knew these existed.  [smile]   If I understand correctly, this could be a way of fitting a 1/2" diameter cutter into a 1010 router?

For those who have installed this in their routers, did you adjust the MuscleChuck for minimum runout?

FWIW...
Watching the video, on a stock PC router they had .001" runout, after adding the MC, it brought it to .0035" runout, turning the MC 1/4 turn CW it now became .0055" runout and then finally, turning the MC 1/2 turn CCW it settled back down to .001" runout.

« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 11:49 AM by Cheese »

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4170
Re: Router Lifts and Quick Change Chucks / Collets
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2019, 02:44 PM »
How does a Musclechuck fit a Festool OF 1010? I didn’t see any 8mm adapter listed, but that kind of info is surprisingly scant at his site.

Offline greg mann

  • Posts: 1866
Re: Router Lifts and Quick Change Chucks / Collets
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2019, 07:07 PM »
How does a Musclechuck fit a Festool OF 1010? I didn’t see any 8mm adapter listed, but that kind of info is surprisingly scant at his site.

If I had to guess I would say the 1010 listing is a mistake. There is no way the same chuck would fit a 1010 and a 2200. The chuck’s best feature is that it has a tapered body that fits into the spindle taper just like a standard collet would and is secured with a threaded element that emulates a collet nut. This makes the whole unit pretty much a monolithic extension of the spindle. This is much better than a shanked extension held in a standard collet into which a router bit shank is inserted. The least rigid point of the latter is that shank inserted into the standard collet. The muscle chuck does away with this weak point. I think of it as an ‘over spindle adapter’ as opposed to an’in the spindle adapter’.

All of this does not mean a muscle chuck couldn’t be designed around an OF1010 but I don’t see any way it could work with anything larger than an 8mm shank (maybe 10mm).
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4170
Re: Router Lifts and Quick Change Chucks / Collets
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2019, 08:07 PM »
Thanks for the explanation Greg. Didn’t understand how the thing worked but now it’s even more interesting. Disappointing though that it probably doesn’t fit the 1010.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6383
Re: Router Lifts and Quick Change Chucks / Collets
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2019, 09:24 PM »
Well unfortunately, none of the non-users of this product know how this contraption works because the website is a cluster as far as explaining the basic design principles behind this accessory.

This was the reason for my shout out to the users so that we could start a conversation.
If you go to the website they list the same adapter is needed for the 1010, the 1400 and the 2200...we know that’s BS.

I then also looked at Milwaukee routers which I also own and the 3 1/4 HP version only comes with a 3/8” collet. Well we know that’s also crazy.

I came away with the idea that each adapter is manufactured to fit its particular router and then the MuscleChuck is counterbored to fit a 1/2” diameter router bit. That’s the reason different router collets are offered, and none are over 12 mm.  If this is indeed the situation, it’s a pretty slick setup.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2019, 08:24 AM by Cheese »

Offline dlu

  • Posts: 168
Re: Router Lifts and Quick Change Chucks / Collets
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2019, 12:26 AM »
I think you have that right. The Musclechuck itself is 1/2" only - with collet reducers for 6, 8 and 12 mm and 1/8", 1/4" and 3/8".

I asked them about the 1010 and got a reply that they thought that was a mistake - I suggested they remove the 1010 from their list, but for some reason they haven't done so. I think there are a lot of small companies that contract out their webmaster work and I wonder if it is a question of the cost of getting someone to do the work or the possibility that that person is no longer around...

Anyway, I've been super happy with the quality of the product and the support that they provide.

They offer to produce custom chucks (and custom sized collets) - I wonder if they could/would produce one for the 1010 and 700 if we showed them enough potential volume.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6383
Re: Router Lifts and Quick Change Chucks / Collets
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2019, 08:35 AM »
I think you have that right. The Musclechuck itself is 1/2" only - with collet reducers for 6, 8 and 12 mm and 1/8", 1/4" and 3/8".

I asked them about the 1010 and got a reply that they thought that was a mistake

Well thanks for the input.  [smile]   I'll drop them an email and ask about the 1010. It would be a sweet way to use that odd 1/2" router bit on a 1010.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4170
Re: Router Lifts and Quick Change Chucks / Collets
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2019, 10:19 AM »
@Cheese    According to the website, he’s welcomes phone calls.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4170
Re: Router Lifts and Quick Change Chucks / Collets
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2019, 10:26 AM »
Thinking about the Musclechuck on an OF 1010,
 it could be a benefit to use a small 1/2” bit in that compact plunge router.

The extra 1/2” of collet isn’t a big deal since the stock collet can already plunge to the bottom of the base.

Even faster bit change would be the prime benefit and if run out can be minimized it would be worth it.

Offline TealaG

  • Posts: 112
Re: Router Lifts and Quick Change Chucks / Collets
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2019, 12:09 PM »
I agree that the website doesn't explain the concept well.   I have the xtreme xtension and when I saw the muscle chuck, I thought something was "missing".   Yeah...this thing doesn't go in like a router bit.  This muscle chuck replaces the collet nut and collet!   I love the idea and hope it works.   

I'm struggling with standard two wrench bit changes (and as a result avoid using my router, even though I love the result).   So use of an allen wrench...one tool, to change the bit is very appealing to me.  I finally got that xtreme thing working but I can't lower the bit below the table.   Now that I use the router table as an "extension" of the table saw table, not being able to lower the bit is now a huge problem, thus, why I started searching for a shorter alternative. 

I find that the "basic" package at $106 is ridiculous.   I found the same wrench for $3 (or a premium one for $7) and an insert for the 1/4" bits for $13 (though, I may be able to reuse the one that came with the xtreme) and then the chuck for $70.   Now at closer to $90, I'm happier.   There's no need to over charge for a collet reducing thingie and a wrench!!!

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 820
Re: Router Lifts and Quick Change Chucks / Collets
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2019, 01:57 PM »
I agree that the website doesn't explain the concept well.   I have the xtreme xtension and when I saw the muscle chuck, I thought something was "missing".   Yeah...this thing doesn't go in like a router bit.  This muscle chuck replaces the collet nut and collet!   I love the idea and hope it works.   

I'm struggling with standard two wrench bit changes (and as a result avoid using my router, even though I love the result).   So use of an allen wrench...one tool, to change the bit is very appealing to me.  I finally got that xtreme thing working but I can't lower the bit below the table.   Now that I use the router table as an "extension" of the table saw table, not being able to lower the bit is now a huge problem, thus, why I started searching for a shorter alternative. 

I find that the "basic" package at $106 is ridiculous.   I found the same wrench for $3 (or a premium one for $7) and an insert for the 1/4" bits for $13 (though, I may be able to reuse the one that came with the xtreme) and then the chuck for $70.   Now at closer to $90, I'm happier.   There's no need to over charge for a collet reducing thingie and a wrench!!!

Are you really kibitzing over $90? The man has invented something useful and high quality and is wanting to recoup his development costs. I'd reevaluate staying in the hobby (If that is what it is for you. It's not for me) if $16 is an issue. I seriously doubt the $13 insert is of the same quality as his. Take a look at the videos and compare it to yours. Everyone here appreciates the value of a system and this system has multiple parts that are designed to work together (less the wrench). It this exact mentality of trying to save a nickel on every last item that hurts US companies and discourages them from creating new products.

Offline dlu

  • Posts: 168
Re: Router Lifts and Quick Change Chucks / Collets
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2019, 09:21 PM »
Interesting comment by @Svar in the Musclechuck, any one using it? thread - quick summary is that while traditional tapered collet designs will naturally center bits with slightly differing shank diameters, designs like the Musclechuck seem to depend on accurately and consistently sized bit shanks. I wonder how much variation there is in bits from good vendors (e.g., Whiteside, CMT, etc.) and how much is tolerable.

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1910
Re: Router Lifts and Quick Change Chucks / Collets
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2019, 12:35 AM »
Seems like a high quality product developed by a guy who seems very serious about providing a good product. Tell me, though, why do you need a quick change chuck? I use the PC7518 in an Incra table with an Incra Master Lift. It doesn't seem that difficult to change bits.

I never discourage buying a new tool; just wondering what I'm missing.
Randy

Offline dlu

  • Posts: 168
Re: Router Lifts and Quick Change Chucks / Collets
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2019, 03:23 AM »
Tell me, though, why do you need a quick change chuck? I use the PC7518 in an Incra table with an Incra Master Lift. It doesn't seem that difficult to change bits.

Need is a high bar, as you say it is not that difficult to change bits in that combination, but...

What I noticed was that I found myself looking for ways to avoid changing bits, so it seemed worth checking out one of the quick change chucks. Given Musclechuck's 30-day money back guarantee, it seemed like there was little to lose. So far, I'm quite happy with it and I like the idea of having a single tool that could be used for changing bits on any of my routers.

Offline Oldwood

  • Posts: 367
  • Alberta, Canada
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Confucius

Offline TealaG

  • Posts: 112
Re: Router Lifts and Quick Change Chucks / Collets
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2019, 08:33 AM »
Thanks for the video reference!!!  Ok, this explains why I need the overpriced insert.   It also says I can let the bit bottom out (yeah!).   Sold.   :)

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6383
Re: Router Lifts and Quick Change Chucks / Collets
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2019, 08:53 AM »
@Cheese    According to the website, he’s welcomes phone calls.

Hey @Michael Kellough , I sent them an email Friday morning, haven't received a reply yet. If I don't hear from them on Monday, I'll give them a call on Tuesday.

After watching the Fine Woodworking video, I have my doubts that this thing fits a 1010. I think dlu was correct, when he said the website is incorrect.


Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6383
Re: Router Lifts and Quick Change Chucks / Collets
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2019, 10:59 AM »
After watching the Fine Woodworking video, I have my doubts that this thing fits a 1010. I think dlu was correct, when he said the website is incorrect.

Well...color me wrong on this issue.  [eek]

Just received a reply from Joe at DeRosa Engineering, the manufacturer of Musclechuck.


ME: Your website lists a Type 2 Musclechuck being available for a Festool 1010 router, is that correct? 

JOE: Yes the Festool 1010EQ takes a type 2 Musclechuck.

ME: So that means that a Festool 1010 could use a 1/2” diameter router bit?

JOE: Yes the Musclechuck itself is 1/2 inch so you would get a type 2 Musclechuck screw it on the router and be able to use 1/2 bits with no additional inserts.



That's sweet.  [big grin]

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4170
Re: Router Lifts and Quick Change Chucks / Collets
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2019, 11:21 AM »
He sells those at Amazon too where the reviews are mediocre due to about half the buyers saying the chuck didn’t actually fit the router it purported to, so it would probably be best to buy directly from De Rosa where returns are accepted for any reason and refund includes shipping.

Offline dlu

  • Posts: 168
Re: Router Lifts and Quick Change Chucks / Collets
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2019, 10:36 PM »
After watching the Fine Woodworking video, I have my doubts that this thing fits a 1010. I think dlu was correct, when he said the website is incorrect.

Well...color me wrong on this issue.  [eek]

Just received a reply from Joe at DeRosa Engineering, the manufacturer of Musclechuck.


ME: Your website lists a Type 2 Musclechuck being available for a Festool 1010 router, is that correct? 

JOE: Yes the Festool 1010EQ takes a type 2 Musclechuck.

ME: So that means that a Festool 1010 could use a 1/2” diameter router bit?

JOE: Yes the Musclechuck itself is 1/2 inch so you would get a type 2 Musclechuck screw it on the router and be able to use 1/2 bits with no additional inserts.

That's sweet.  [big grin]

I would really like to join you in the wrongness - but it just doesn't make sense to me that the Type 2 Musclechuck could fit both the 1400 (and 2200) and the 1100. The collets look dramatically different - I suppose I could go compare them, but the dog is asleep with his head on my lap...

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6383
Re: Router Lifts and Quick Change Chucks / Collets
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2019, 11:12 PM »
Lesson # 1 ...Don’t disturb the pooch.

I agree with you, misery loves company and I don’t want to be the only fool in this thread.  [smile]

I’ll order one from DeRosa Engineering and see what shakes out.

Offline dlu

  • Posts: 168
Re: Router Lifts and Quick Change Chucks / Collets
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2019, 12:46 AM »
I’ll order one from DeRosa Engineering and see what shakes out.

Be careful - it it's the bit that could get ugly  [eek]

Offline jdnz

  • Posts: 1
Re: Router Lifts and Quick Change Chucks / Collets
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2019, 05:20 AM »

I’ll order one from DeRosa Engineering and see what shakes out.

Would love to know if this worked out. Did you end up ordering it?