Author Topic: Recommend voltage tester (Read 1771 times)

Joelm · « **on:** February 28, 2023, 06:51 PM »

Hello,

I was wondering if there are any electricians here that can recommend a voltage tester?

I had the $__t scared out of my this morning with my old one that I bought at a big box store.

I'm finishing my basement ceiling and working on my soffit/bulkhead to cover my hvac pipes and exposed Steel I beam. I pulled aside some insulation bat that someone had previously shoved in the I beam and noticed these two wires just hanging out in the I beams cavity.

I didn't think anything of it at first but thought I should check to make sure they weren't live. I got my voltage tester out and it indicated that it was live and had been hiding in some insulating in a steel I beam for who knows how many years.

I was lucky to have hired a new electrician to do some work last week and he came by later today after his first job. At first he thought it was dangerous too until he pulled out his voltage tester. Nothing. Then he went and got his expensive voltage meter just to be sure an it still showed nothing. I showed him my voltage tester and it beeped like crazy. He said the cheap ones will go off with any kind of current. He promptly found the other end of the cut wires and yanked them out of the wall for me and left without charging me for the trip.

I can't remember the brand of voltage tester he showed me but I want something that will never give me a false positive again.

Suggestions?

Vtshopdog · « **Reply #1 on:** February 28, 2023, 07:16 PM »

Fluke is kinda the gold standard brand for electrical meters, but many affordable digital multi meters are very accurate and getting a Fluke likely overkill if you only pull it out every now and then. You should be able to get a nice DMM for under $50

You describe your meter as "beeping like crazy" is it just some sort of tester or will it actually display voltages? Does it have settings to measure in AC and DC or things like resistance or current?

Joelm · « **Reply #2 on:** February 28, 2023, 07:57 PM »

Thanks Vtshopdog. I'll look up DMM.

The one I bought is from Southwire. I think I bought it Lowes years ago as part of a set.

It only has on and off.

jonnyrocket · « **Reply #3 on:** February 28, 2023, 08:03 PM »

It sounds like you are talking about a Non-Contact Voltage tester or NCV tester. Fittingly referred to as “stupid sticks” in the field, because if you rely on them as your sole means of debugging non-functional circuits, they will only make you look “stupid”.

A great “all-in-one” electrical tester is the Klein CL meter line. They include the ability to measure Voltage, Current, Resistance, Capacitance and also have a built in NCV test function as well. I personally like the CL800. It does DC and AC Voltages and Currents as well as Capacitance. So it’s a great fit for working on motors with Start/Run capacitors, and standard Home AC as well as DC for cars or other hobbies. I’m sure there are some other options out there that are equivalent, but for the price, this really is a great unit that you can get on Amazon or locally at HomeDepot (though they may not have this exact model in your local store, but it can be ordered from them). Klein has several models in this line, so compare and maybe save some money if you don’t need/want all the features of the CL800 that I mentioned. Klein also has several models of “stupid sticks” that they offer. But a stupid stick shouldn’t be your only tester, there’s just too many other pieces of information that are left out when only relying on the NCV testers.

rmhinden · « **Reply #4 on:** February 28, 2023, 08:38 PM »

For detecting live circuits , I have the Klein Tools NCVT-2 Voltage Tester. It has two ranges 12-48v AC and 48-1000v AC. Important to have it in the right mode depending what one is testing. Klein has several models with different features.

I use it after turning off the circuit to make sure I turned off the correct breaker. I also first test it against a known live circuit to make sure it is working.

Vtshopdog · « **Reply #5 on:** February 28, 2023, 08:55 PM »

+1 for Klein brand and Johnny rockets advice.

I’m more interested in bench use and own one of their meters without the current sensing clamp feature. (MM2000) Besides voltage functions I use it to test and match resistors and capacitors and have been very happy.

Clamp style models in their line are denoted CL-### and probe only style are MM-###. Clamp style would have been handy in your situation, a probe only would require you find terminus of the wire.

Compared to what you have any of the suggested models should be great.

Cheese · « **Reply #6 on:** March 01, 2023, 03:44 PM »

I love the "stupid sticks" terminology.

I really don't trust the NCV testers and because of that, I just got bit last week.

I've really given up on their use because they will beep/buzz when ANY voltage is available...no matter how little, always crying wolf. I've used a Greenlee AC Detector for years, because of its convenience but it always says voltage is there no matter what. I also use a Fluke 117 meter that has non-contact voltage detection called VoltAlert and it too says voltage is always there. Over the years I've measured those voltage levels and it's always under 20-25 volts.

So last week I grabbed my electrical Systainer with the Greenlee AC Detector in it and went in search of swapping out an outlet.

I was absolutely positive the correct breaker was thrown but just to make sure, checked it with the Greenlee...and sure enough, the Greenlee starts buzzing like it always does. So I removed the outlet, grabbed it with one hand and Yeow...I hate that when it happens.

I've decided to dispense with the NCV tester despite its convenience and check wiring by directly probing with the Fluke 117. Ya it's more work but at least I can trust the results.

guybo · « **Reply #7 on:** March 01, 2023, 04:24 PM »

When did these go out of fashion

Cheese · « **Reply #8 on:** March 01, 2023, 04:37 PM »

Quote from: guybo on March 01, 2023, 04:24 PM

When did these go out of fashion

A Simpson 260?...I'd say about 40 years ago.

But seriously, wish I still had mine

there's just something mesmerizing/romantic/pleasurable about analog equipment.

guybo · « **Reply #9 on:** March 01, 2023, 05:13 PM »

Quote from: Cheese on March 01, 2023, 04:37 PM

Quote from: guybo on March 01, 2023, 04:24 PM
When did these go out of fashion

A Simpson 260?...I'd say about 40 years ago.

But seriously, wish I still had mine there's just something mesmerizing/romantic/pleasurable about analog equipment.

My stero equip. is the same age,still luv the sound of klipsh conrwalls

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #10 on:** March 01, 2023, 06:06 PM »

@Cheese “I was absolutely positive the correct breaker was thrown but just to make sure, checked it with the Greenlee...and sure enough, the Greenlee starts buzzing like it always does. So I removed the outlet, grabbed it with one hand and Yeow...I hate that when it happens.”

Doesn’t the buzzing indicate the wire is hot, so don’t grab it?

tsmi243 · « **Reply #11 on:** March 01, 2023, 06:44 PM »

Quote from: Michael Kellough on March 01, 2023, 06:06 PM

@Cheese “I was absolutely positive the correct breaker was thrown but just to make sure, checked it with the Greenlee...and sure enough, the Greenlee starts buzzing like it always does. So I removed the outlet, grabbed it with one hand and Yeow...I hate that when it happens.”

Doesn’t the buzzing indicate the wire is hot, so don’t grab it?

He was assuming it was a false positive. "The tester who cried voltage".

I've got Kleins, and they do false positives but you can hear the difference. It's a short blip, instead of a steady ringing. I've had em for years, and they never let me down- BUT, anybody who borrows one thinks it's going off all the time- because they don't listen....

Anybody still got a Wiggins???

Chainring · « **Reply #12 on:** March 01, 2023, 07:41 PM »

I have a Fluke 1AC-A II NCV. It does the job as a quick test, but like others have said it should not be taken as gospel.

PaulMarcel · « **Reply #13 on:** March 02, 2023, 12:56 AM »

I have a Klein NCVT-2. Seems to work reliably, but does give the occasional false positive. I have a dimmer that makes the NCVT signal voltage though it is de-energized. But it only does it as I swing my arm up to the device. If I hold there after, it stops.

I think the key is what tsmi243 said: listen to it when it detects a known live circuit and expect that for a positive hit. It's a bit like a toner: out of the box, they aren't great until you learn the cool tricks.

six-point socket II · « **Reply #14 on:** March 02, 2023, 10:07 AM »

For what it's worth and YMMV:

The Klein NCVT's "beeping" will increase the more voltage is present. So if you are checking mains and it just "beeps" slow, it's very likely it's picking up some "inductive voltage". However, with the NCVTs there is no way to be 100% sure about that. There can still be voltage, and you can still get zapped. That's why I solely use them as indicators and for fault finding purposes (string-a-lights anyone?

)

(I can simulate this behavior all day on my toolboxes with LED floor lighting. If it's switched on, my NCVTs will claim there is voltage all over the box ... It's the same with 2 parallel lines. One live, one off - it will still slowly beep on the one that is off because it picks up from the one that is still live and running parallel.

Those NCTVs should never be your only tool to determine if a circuit is live/hot or not.

I also don't like multimeters to determine if a circuit/line is hot or not, because most (if not all?) of them lack a feature to add load to the circuit you are testing, which then eliminates any and all induced voltage - so you can be sure it was just that. If the voltage is not eliminated, it will let you know by vibrating. Fluke twin-pole testers for example do just that.

I would always recommend the twin-pole testers over any other tester/meter because they are a highly reliable way to determine if a circuit is live or not and also offer basic continuity testing. The digital ones will also allow you to read the actual voltage. The "load"-function also allows you to check/trip GFCIs - but, at least with the Fluke models, they will not trip GFCIs accidentally/ all the time when just checking voltage. Some old-school/past twin-pole testers did just that.

https://www.fluke.com/en/product/electrical-testing/basic-testers/fluke-t90-t110-t130-t150

Personally, I have a couple of the T150s in different toolboxes/setups. But even the T90 will be better and much more reliable than any NCVT.

Klein offers a variety of twin/two pole/lead testers as well, those are also better than any NCVT.

If it just has to be a NCVT, get one from Fluke - they make the most reliable, among generally rather unreliable testers.

That said, owning 2 Klein NCVTs as well, they work if you know the limits. Plus they have neat secondary features that come in handy from time to time.

But then again, with mains, better to be safe than sorry!

Kind regards,
Oliver

Cheese · « **Reply #15 on:** March 02, 2023, 10:25 AM »

Quote from: Michael Kellough on March 01, 2023, 06:06 PM

Doesn’t the buzzing indicate the wire is hot, so don’t grab it?

The buzzing indicates voltage only, anywhere from 6V to 240V.

So like I mentioned, in the past I've taken the extra step of leaving whatever area I was in to retrieve the Fluke 117 meter in the basement just to take a voltage reading but those readings were usually always 20V or less. So when it buzzed this time I assumed..............

I mentioned, the Fluke 117 has NCV detection called VoltAlert on it and it only detects voltages over 50V so it's less problematic than the Greenlee detector. I'd be tempted to use that all the time but it's another bundle to haul around and the VoltAlert module is in an area that's very large, so getting into small spaces is impossible. Thus the reason for throwing the Greenlee in the Systainer.

Compare the size of the Greenlee to the VoltAlert placement on the 117. Notice the small black nose on the Greenlee AC Detective, that can be jammed into very small places.

Joelm · « **Reply #16 on:** March 02, 2023, 11:20 AM »

Sorry to hear you got zapped there Cheese.

A little backstory as to why I was so concerned.

When we bought this house a few years ago our furnace wouldn't start. The previous owner moved to a house around the corner so I asked him if there was anything I missed to turn it on. He came over and couldn't figure it out but did tell me he had done some electrical "upgrades" to to the house himself.

I next called an HVAC company, they found the problem right away. The previous owner had cut the furnace's power line and decided to install a plug for it so he could run the furnace off of a battery in case of a power outage. Since the HVAC tech was not an electrician he told me to get one and hard wire it back like it originally was.

When the electrician came he found that the plug had the hot and neutral reversed. After wiring it correctly it worked no problem. The electrician also asked about a loose hanging 14/2 cable with a plug on the end of it next to the furnace. I had been told by the previous owner that he decided to run a plug to the fridge in the kitchen and use it in case of a power outage. Both of these "upgrades" are against local codes. So any time I see something electrical in the house that doesn't look quite right I wonder if the previous guy had touched it.

Anyway, I've ordered a Klein as recommended. Thanks for the suggestions.

tsmi243 · « **Reply #17 on:** March 02, 2023, 12:55 PM »

Quote from: Joelm on March 02, 2023, 11:20 AM

Anyway, I've ordered a Klein as recommended. Thanks for the suggestions.

Do some practice runs with it. Wave it around in the air, sometimes even THAT will get a minor blip reading. I don't know that Klein is any better or worse than others, but it never hurts to stick with a known brand.

Quote from: six-point socket II on March 02, 2023, 10:07 AM

I would always recommend the twin-pole testers over any other tester/meter because they are a highly reliable way to determine if a circuit is live or not and also offer basic continuity testing.

In the US, these were known in the trades as a "Wiggy", short for Wiggins. I've met VERY few people under 60 who know what they are, and why they're important.

For anyone else who doesn't know, the reason Oliver says they're more reliable, is that they put a decent sized load on the circuit while testing. There's a solenoid inside that has to physically move, which will prove that the circuit is capable of doing "work", in the physics sense. A transient voltage won't be able to do that.

Digital meters are "high impedance", and only draw a few mA thru themselves- a really bad connection can still pass 5mA at line voltage, which will test "good" on a DVOM, but not work at all when you plug a fridge in.

A Wiggy will pull somewhere around 100mA, which won't work if you're down to the last strand of copper in a burnt wire nut. It'll show "dead", and mean it.

thudchkr · « **Reply #18 on:** March 02, 2023, 02:03 PM »

One thing I learned with the NCV testers is to hold a finger against the probe tip opposite from where you’re taking your reading. This tends to eliminate most of the false readings. Take the finger away and it alerts, but with the finger in place, it only alerts when there is sufficient line voltage.

Have had good performance from them since learning this trick. I use both Fluke and Milwaukee NCV testers and have not found the Milwaukee tool to be any less reliable than the Fluke.

I will grab a DMM, however, when I need to be sure if voltage is present.

Also, multiple posts refer to “current” being in the circuit tested instead of just a voltage potential. If you have a powered circuit, i.e. voltage is present, but nothing is running on that circuit, there will be no “current” present. If you touch that live voltage, you will then get some current flowing, unfortunately it will be flowing through you.

usernumber1 · « **Reply #19 on:** March 02, 2023, 09:01 PM »

I like the Fluke LVD2 because it doesn't beep, forces you to pay attention a little more.

The light-only kind of works, after you get used to it. I can take pretty good guesses based on the intensity and how stable it lights up. Beeping would confuse me since its either beep or no beep. I'm sure others learned with beeping and wouldn't be without it.

Make sure you get rid of any capacitance in your body, that will throw off any of them

Like everyone says they are just triage you're not supposed to rely on 100%

six-point socket II · « **Reply #20 on:** March 03, 2023, 08:39 AM »

Quote from: thudchkr on March 02, 2023, 02:03 PM

Also, multiple posts refer to “current” being in the circuit tested instead of just a voltage potential. If you have a powered circuit, i.e. voltage is present, but nothing is running on that circuit, there will be no “current” present. If you touch that live voltage, you will then get some current flowing, unfortunately it will be flowing through you.

Guilty as charged.

I edited my post - so it refers to voltage only. English not being my native language, I mixed up voltage/current various times. Sorry for that! And thank you for the correction/explanation, so future readers won't be confused!

Kind regards,
Oliver

dicktill · « **Reply #21 on:** March 04, 2023, 01:10 PM »

I found these interesting comments on NCVT’s in Mike Sokol’s “RV Electrical Safety”:
“These testers need to have your hand wrapped around them to sense earth ground; so, if you hold them with just the tips of your fingers it’s possible to get a false-safe reading. Non-contact testers need your feet to be near the ground to know the actual earth potential, so if you’re standing on a fiberglass ladder, they won’t read properly”.

YMMV, Dick