Author Topic: Rail Squares - Question: Benchdogs UK or TSO?  (Read 2068 times)

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Offline Toddbg

  • Posts: 5
Rail Squares - Question: Benchdogs UK or TSO?
« on: January 25, 2021, 12:33 PM »
Has anyone gotten or used both of these rail squares?
I am looking to get one and have mixed feelings on each.

The Benchdogs UK looks good, and I like the material slide out to keep the rail from tipping, however I am not positive about the locking mechanism to tighten to square. Pete Millard has done a review of this one. This also has a variety of dogs that come with it if you buy the kit.
(I don't have a MFT, but do plan on building a top following the hole pattern at some point)

on the other hand, the TSO GRS looks like it has a solid squaring mechanism, but does not have the material slide.
This is also the design that Festool has licensed and is selling everywhere but north america.

Any advice?

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Offline ghhsolutions

  • Posts: 12
Re: Rail Squares - Question: Benchdogs UK or TSO?
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2021, 01:19 PM »
To further complicate matters, and not answering your question, there is also the excellent FC Tools rail square : https://fctools.co.uk/product/fc-festool-rail-square

Offline daz9100

  • Posts: 9
Re: Rail Squares - Question: Benchdogs UK or TSO?
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2021, 01:24 PM »
The new Mk2 Benchdogs square has a different locking mechanism. It's a beautiful piece of British engineering

Offline Toddbg

  • Posts: 5
Re: Rail Squares - Question: Benchdogs UK or TSO?
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2021, 01:52 PM »
The new Mk2 Benchdogs square has a different locking mechanism. It's a beautiful piece of British engineering

Wow, where did you find that picture, I'm not seeing it on their website?

Offline daz9100

  • Posts: 9
Re: Rail Squares - Question: Benchdogs UK or TSO?
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2021, 02:47 PM »
That's my one. It was ordered on Black Friday, they've just started shipping and was finally delivered this week.

Offline krudawg

  • Posts: 92
Re: Rail Squares - Question: Benchdogs UK or TSO?
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2021, 02:51 PM »
The new Mk2 Benchdogs square has a different locking mechanism. It's a beautiful piece of British engineering

Does it leak oil?  :-)
Ted
MFT/3, DF 500, Hammer K3 Winner, TS55,  Sjoberg Elite 1500 Workbench, Fuji MiniMite4 Platinum,
Former Marine, Vietnam Vet

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 1010
Re: Rail Squares - Question: Benchdogs UK or TSO?
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2021, 03:22 PM »
The new Mk2 Benchdogs square has a different locking mechanism. It's a beautiful piece of British engineering

Does it leak oil?  :-)

Hopefully it will, it’s a territorial thing and I’d be right at home  [wink]
Really nice design, though. I like aluminium in its natural color too.

“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline mino

  • Posts: 514
Re: Rail Squares - Question: Benchdogs UK or TSO?
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2021, 06:52 PM »
Has anyone gotten or used both of these rail squares?
I am looking to get one and have mixed feelings on each.

The Benchdogs UK looks good, and I like the material slide out to keep the rail from tipping, however I am not positive about the locking mechanism to tighten to square. Pete Millard has done a review of this one. This also has a variety of dogs that come with it if you buy the kit.
(I don't have a MFT, but do plan on building a top following the hole pattern at some point)

on the other hand, the TSO GRS looks like it has a solid squaring mechanism, but does not have the material slide.
This is also the design that Festool has licensed and is selling everywhere but north america.

Any advice?
I would go with the Festool one /is exact as GRS just other color.

The accuracy is just perfect /at least same or better than DIN Class 1 square as far as I can tell, do not have a CLass 0 square on hand unfortunately/ and the locking system is simply unbeatable. Unbeatable as in you would have to breach their patent to get close ...

Also, I believe we should support the original inventor and/or those he licenses to. Nothing against Benchdogs, they do some fine stuff.

About the slide, you can  screw a piece of material - but in reality what you will want are the parallel guides. Or make your own ...  I am in the process of making min from measurement rules.

Ref the slide - with PGs, they act like one, Without them, you can screw anything there very quickly if you use a thumb screw.
The Machine does not have a brain. Use Yours!
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 376, 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2400, GECKO, GRS 16 PE, GRS 16 PE

Offline TSO_Products

  • Retailer
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  • Posts: 378
    • TSO Products LLC
Re: Rail Squares - Question: Benchdogs UK or TSO?
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2021, 08:42 PM »
@Toddbg  – your question is quite understandable.

As the inventor behind the original patented GRS-16 series Guide Rail Squares you would expect my response to be biased. Please keep that in mind as I try to be completely factual and be clear when something I say is “opinion”.
Ultimately YOU will be the user and the judge. My suggestion: try the TSO Square for a month or two.
Get a GRS-16 or GRS-16 PE from AXMINSTER Tools on a money back guarantee basis. Keep it long enough that you can be certain of your final judgement and we will authorize AXMINSTER Tools to refund your complete purchase price at TSO’s expense if you choose another tool instead.

Now for some background:
You can imagine that the current production version was not the first design concept at all.  FACT: One of the early CNC-machined development prototypes  was so encouraging that we thought we had hit the target spot on. It’s attachment method utilized the T-slot in the guide rail for alignment and attachment of our Guide Rail Square. Next, we machined a brand new prototype based on this learning and purchased an additional new 55”  Guide Rail  to keep in the machine shop for quick fit test.

SURPRISE: the new prototype would not fit on the new guide rail’s t-slot. But it still fit the first guide rail! There was just enough variability in the guide rail extrusion profile to keep us from achieving the squaring accuracy we were after.

FACT: not surprising, others who developed guide rail squares after they saw our success also chose to use the T-slots . . . and still rely on them for alignment.

This experience taught us that a bulletproof method of precise squaring needs to be completely independent of  normal extrusion manufacturing variances.

FACT: for TSO’s production Square we chose to simply connect to the outside edge of the guide rail extrusion. Unlike T-slots, slight variations in the extrusion profile width cannot affect the accuracy of the connection of the TSO GRS-16 Square to the guide rail.– To keep the TSO Square from disengaging unintentionally we  provide a loose fitting catch underneath.
Our Square connection is based on a proprietary Draw Latch assembly which includes two powerful compensating springs. The same Draw Latch we supply to FESTOOL for production in Germany.

Another FACT: TSO Guide Rail Squares weigh less and have a Center of Gravity which does not tilt the guide rail to require a “material slide”. FESTOOL evaluated it and determined  it was not needed on the “made in Europe” version either.

Please drop me a note with your experience: info@tsoproducts.com   attention Hans

Enjoy your woodworking!
Hans

PS: The FESTOOL Square version is anodized a natural aluminum color, if you prefer [smile]

Offline Julie

  • Posts: 29
Re: Rail Squares - Question: Benchdogs UK or TSO?
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2021, 12:00 AM »
I am very happy with my TSO rail square. Just today I cut one end of a sheet of 18mm ply. Then I used the rail square to cut the long side using the fresh cut as the reference. (instead of using the parallel guides since I wasn't cutting to final dimension) I flipped the ply so I could cut the other long side using the same reference end.
Finally, measuring the width at both ends of my 900mm sheet the width was within 1mm.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 514
Re: Rail Squares - Question: Benchdogs UK or TSO?
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2021, 07:05 AM »
@Toddbg  – your question is quite understandable.

As the inventor ..
From the horses mouth!

Hans, did you consider making a video on the various prototypes and why you chose what you chose ?

Including the technical explanation of why the reference surface was chosen. And e.g. how it is mostly immune to the extrusion thickness variance.

I am sure there is some secret sauce to some of these things you may not want to divulge, but going over the dead ends should be very useful. I am sure the wider market you reach, the more you move outside the fine woodworking community, the more FUD and lack of appreciation will you encounter creating the need for more "educational" material out there.

I would make the video a more "behind the scenes factoid" instead of a commercial-style video. Something people will enjoy getting an understanding from. And which you can use to "back up" the commercials or even forum posts like this one by "for a bit for in depth history look here".
« Last Edit: January 26, 2021, 07:08 AM by mino »
The Machine does not have a brain. Use Yours!
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 376, 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2400, GECKO, GRS 16 PE, GRS 16 PE

Offline Toddbg

  • Posts: 5
Re: Rail Squares - Question: Benchdogs UK or TSO?
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2021, 12:26 PM »
@Toddbg  – your question is quite understandable.

As the inventor behind the original patented GRS-16 series Guide Rail Squares you would expect my response to be biased. Please keep that in mind as I try to be completely factual and be clear when something I say is “opinion”.
Ultimately YOU will be the user and the judge. My suggestion: try the TSO Square for a month or two.
Get a GRS-16 or GRS-16 PE from AXMINSTER Tools on a money back guarantee basis. Keep it long enough that you can be certain of your final judgement and we will authorize AXMINSTER Tools to refund your complete purchase price at TSO’s expense if you choose another tool instead.
@TSO_Products
Thank you for the detailed post! It is refreshing to see a manufacturer give such information as well as separating fact and opinion.
I've got to say that is pretty cool.

I also appreciate the offer on the trial run!

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 1010
Re: Rail Squares - Question: Benchdogs UK or TSO?
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2021, 03:52 PM »
@Toddbg  – your question is quite understandable.

As the inventor behind the original patented GRS-16 series Guide Rail Squares you would expect my response to be biased. Please keep that in mind as I try to be completely factual and be clear when something I say is “opinion”.
Ultimately YOU will be the user and the judge. My suggestion: try the TSO Square for a month or two.
Get a GRS-16 or GRS-16 PE from AXMINSTER Tools on a money back guarantee basis. Keep it long enough that you can be certain of your final judgement and we will authorize AXMINSTER Tools to refund your complete purchase price at TSO’s expense if you choose another tool instead.
@TSO_Products
Thank you for the detailed post! It is refreshing to see a manufacturer give such information as well as separating fact and opinion.
I've got to say that is pretty cool.

I also appreciate the offer on the trial run!

Hans @TSO_Products It is refreshing to see such a professional promotion, and the polite way you stay behind your products. All agreed with Toddbg here. And that is as a non owner (yet..) of any TSO products.
When I’ll buy a TSO product, I’d love to see them in Alu-grey  [wink]
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline jarbroen

  • Posts: 384
Re: Rail Squares - Question: Benchdogs UK or TSO?
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2021, 10:05 AM »
The new Benchdogs looks pretty handy, helps that they also offer a Mafell version.
And I noticed their new square mentions 'with use of grooved adapters this can be inserted into the MFT holes'.
Another good option for squaring if you don't want to use the Festool flip rail setup.

TSO makes quality products and is constantly innovating, but it's nice to have other companies doing the same.  Options are good. :D

Offline woodferret

  • Posts: 89
Re: Rail Squares - Question: Benchdogs UK or TSO?
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2021, 06:14 PM »
The fact that the TSO doesn't rest on the material is a feature.  Tilting and shimmying the assembly is a good way to get the splinter strip right onto the line without the anti-slip pads on the track getting in the way.  Once you have the tracksaw on, the weight is more than enough to keep it from tilting.

If you really want to forgo that, you can always attach one of the TPGs to the GRS.  They lip over the material.  There are times I want to do this, but most of the time, I prefer the tipping - especially with longer rails.