Author Topic: Now That's Thinking!  (Read 7099 times)

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Offline Matthew Schenker

  • Posts: 2619
Now That's Thinking!
« on: April 18, 2007, 12:02 PM »
Everyone,
Like a lot of people here, safety is one of my main reasons for becoming a Festool customer.

Now, I use my TS55 and MFT for almost all cutting operations.  That means I don't use the table saw that much.  But I do need one.  This caused a dilemma for me.  How do I get a benchtop table saw that is high enough quality?  I compared the Ridgid TS2400 with the Bosch 4000 and decided to go with the Ridgid for a variety of reasons.  The Ridgid has an excellent fence, good table size, and a generally robust build.  But it's always bothered me that the Ridgid doesn't have a riving knife, which I consider a good safety feature.

Well, Bosch is soon releasing the 4100, a new version of their 4000 benchtop table saw.  I have not seen or used this saw, but based on preliminary reports, it looks like the saw will incorporate a lot of great safety features. 

As an aside, it amazes me that that this is being made available on a benchtop saw.  Except for SawStop, the latest releases of cabinet saws and hybrid saws don't have this technology.

I'm withholding judgment until I can give it a try myself, but it looks promising.  Here's Gary Katz's review:
http://www.garymkatz.com/ToolReviews/bosch_4100_table_saw.htm

And here's a video of the saw on Fine Home Building's Web site:
http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/how-to/video/ibs-bosch-tablesaw.aspx?nterms=66146

Seems like this could be the right saw for Festool shops, if you're like me and want a smaller saw with safety features.

Thanks,
Matthew
FOG Designer and Creator

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Offline Lou Miller

  • Posts: 480
  • North Wales, PA
    • Some of my work
Re: Now That's Thinking!
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2007, 02:07 PM »
Matt, I'm a little confused by that video. It looks to me like its not a true riving knife in that the splitter goes up above the blade quite a bit. Obviously they did that so that the gaurd and the pawls would have something to mount to. What I want to know is does the riving knife have the ability to be left on the saw for non-through cuts? To me, that is what makes a riving knife an excellent addition to any saw. Without that ability, its just a fancy splitter.

I've used the Bosch 4000 saw quite a bit ( I don't own one, I've only used ones that were owned by other guys on jobsites) and its a nice saw. Its overpriced, IMO though. The Rigid is virtually on par with the 4000 for a good bit less money. This new version looks as though they raised the bar, but I wonder how much more it will add to the cost? I have no need for a digital fence on saws, and would prefer not to pay for something I don't use. Same thing with those anti-kickback pawls. I won't use them things on any saw. IMO, they cause more accidents than they prevent.

My Rigid saw has lived a pretty rough life and will need to be replaced in a couple of years or so. I'll be curious to see this new Bosch saw when it hits the market. I'm not going to be willing to spend an arm and a leg for one though. Especially since the TS55 has eliminated the majority of the things I use a tablesaw for on site.

Anyway, thanks for posting that...

Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7377
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    • The Green and Dark Blue blog
Re: Now That's Thinking!
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2007, 02:37 PM »
  Lou, check out Gary's site, I think the riving knife is adjustable, and you can buy the saw with standard fence.
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Matthew Schenker

  • Posts: 2619
Re: Now That's Thinking!
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2007, 02:51 PM »
Lou,
Like you, I also have no great need for a digital fence.  I would probably be checking it with my ruler anyway!  And I also do not care much for the pawls.

The riving knife is the one thing I would really appreciate.

I think the riving knife on the new Bosch 4100 goes up and down with the blade, and stays at a constant distance.  If it does not, then I would agree it is not as effective as a true riving knife.  The older Bosch 4000 has a riving knife that does go up and down with the blade, so I hope the new model does the same thing.

Matthew
FOG Designer and Creator

Offline Dan Clark

  • Posts: 540
    • talkFestool
Re: Now That's Thinking!
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2007, 03:21 PM »
Anyone know the cost of this guy?

Offline Matthew Schenker

  • Posts: 2619
Re: Now That's Thinking!
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2007, 05:00 PM »
Dan,
I haven't heard anything about pricing, and there's nothing on the Bosch Web site about what it will cost.  I read someone's comment somewhere about it being "the cost of a hybrid saw," but I think that was unofficial.

I'd be curious to know!

Matthew
FOG Designer and Creator

Offline ccmviking

  • Posts: 411
    • Blue River Cabinetry Kitchen and Bath
Re: Now That's Thinking!
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2007, 01:14 AM »
I have the Bosch saw 4000-09(for on the road work which is 90% of what I do) and don't really have any complaints about it.  Has the power to cut through almost anything, nice fence that is easy to adjust and stays where I lock it.  Can't beat that "gravity rise" stand and the large table top.  I did have to line the table and fence with UHMW tape from Woodcraft and what a difference it made.  Much less effort needed and cuts are smoother because of it.  I have been using a Leitz blade on it but have a Forrest woodworker II just to try it out.  That leitz has many thousands of feet ran through it and still cuts great!  The new saw features don't really interest me that much.   I would like to have a riving knife but why can't they make one to mount on the 4000 and sell it as an accessory?  I won't buy a new saw for it.

Chris...   

Offline Matthew Schenker

  • Posts: 2619
Re: Now That's Thinking!
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2007, 09:11 AM »
Chris,
I thought the 4000 series already had a better splitter.  It rises and falls with the blade, which is better, in my mind, than the splitters that stay fixed in one position.

When I tested the Gravity Rise system, I really liked it.  The Ridgid TS2400 has a collapsible table, which is also nice, but the Gravity Rise did seem a bit more elegant.

Matthew
FOG Designer and Creator

Offline ccmviking

  • Posts: 411
    • Blue River Cabinetry Kitchen and Bath
Re: Now That's Thinking!
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2007, 09:15 AM »
Matthew,

I don't keep the guard on my saw most of the time.  I'm having to make mostly small rips 1/2" here and there so the guard has a splittler, anti kick back pawls and the blade guard all in one unit.  I use the saw aid as a push stick but it would be nice to have an individual splitter.

Chris...

Offline HowardH

  • Posts: 1245
Re: Now That's Thinking!
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2007, 05:55 PM »
PM2000 has the riving knife but it's a lot of money but still half the cost of the SS.  Also heard today that Jet is coming out with a hybrid that incorporates a riving knife.  I would look seriously at that if and when it ever came out.
Howard H
The Dallas Texas Festool Fanatic!

Mark Twain:  "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a letter approving of it." "If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything."

mft1080, P1cc, MFT/3, T15, RO150FEQ, MT55cc, RTS400, CT22, CT36E, 800, 1080, 1400, 1900 rails, OF 2200, OF1400, CSX, C18, Vecturo, Qwas dogs, Parf Dogs, Zobo's, Syslite Uni, CMS GE with router plate. Mafell DDF40, Sawstop contractor, PM 1500

Offline Dan Clark

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    • talkFestool
Bosch 4100 Review and Price
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2007, 11:59 PM »
Here's the latest "review" of the Bosch 4100:
http://www.hgtvpro.com/hpro/photo_template/article/0,3140,HPRO_28216_5387481_08,00.html

Not the longest, most in-depth review, BUT at the bottom were the prices:

4100DG-09 (includes digital rip fence and Bosch's Gravity-Rise stand) $679
4100-09 (does not include digital rip fence, but does include Gravity-Rise) $599
4100 (just the saw) $499

$679 for the saw, stand and digital fence seems quite reasonable.   (Of course, I'm used to spending $600 for a Festool drill plus chucks)

Regards,

Dan.

Offline Matthew Schenker

  • Posts: 2619
Re: Now That's Thinking!
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2007, 07:24 AM »
Dan,
Thanks for noting the review of this saw.  Rather flimsy review, but at least it tells us the price.
I'd be very interested in getting a hands-on test of this new saw.
Matthew
FOG Designer and Creator

Offline richard.selwyn

  • Posts: 635
Re: Now That's Thinking!
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2007, 05:27 AM »
Can't you guys just persuade Festool to import their table (which will hold the TS55 saw, router, jigsaw, sander) or their table saws ?

Offline Matthew Schenker

  • Posts: 2619
Re: Now That's Thinking!
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2007, 06:31 AM »
richard,
I'd love to see that.  But there must be good reasons for the Festool table saws not being sold in the US.  I'm sure if it were up to Festool, they would sell more tools here, as this is a good market for them.

But perhaps you've hit on something.  If there is enough of a groundswell of interest from people in this forum, it might speed up the process just a bit.  But I don't know.

Matthew
FOG Designer and Creator

Offline Dave Rudy

  • Posts: 771
  • Coloroda Front Range, in the lee of Pikes Peak
Re: Now That's Thinking!
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2007, 09:18 PM »
Here's another glowing review (brief) by Popular Woodworking in their monthly email:

http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com/editorsblog/New+Bosch+Table+Saw+Has+European+Guard+System.aspx