Author Topic: New Woodpeckers flush trim bits (Read 2813 times)

Richard/RMW · « **on:** March 16, 2023, 07:58 AM »

I'm serious thinking about splurging on one of these bits even though I don't have an immediate use. I'd been idly considering the larger diameter import version but this looks even better.

Where I'm unsure is whether to go whole hog and get the 2" bit, which I'll likely never need (but always prefer to have the option for more/bigger...), or stick with the 1-1/2". The only downside I see to the longer bit is it might have a slightly higher potential for chatter. What am I missing?

I don't have a project for either bit now, just looking to take advantage of the intro price and have it available when needed.

Thoughts?

RMW

jeffinsgf · « **Reply #1 on:** March 16, 2023, 08:11 AM »

A big part of that question is what sort of router you'll be running. You're exactly right that the longer bit increases the chance of run-out. That is magnified in lighter weight routers.

The other issue is actual dimension you're likely to machine. The 1-1/2" doesn't have a whole lot of leeway. It's a tight squeeze to work with 1-1/2" material and a template.

If you anticipate working with stock 1-1/2"+ and you've got a solid performer for a router, the 2" is for you.

If you can't imagine the need to flush trim anything over 1-1/4" and/or you're working with a smallish router, then go 1-1/2".

jaguar36 · « **Reply #2 on:** March 16, 2023, 08:16 AM »

I've always preferred Whiteside bits. Either way, doesn't seem worth spending $80 on a bit that you don't have an immediate need for to save $20.

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #3 on:** March 16, 2023, 08:28 AM »

Quote from: jeffinsgf on March 16, 2023, 08:11 AM

A big part of that question is what sort of router you'll be running. You're exactly right that the longer bit increases the chance of run-out. That is magnified in lighter weight routers.

The other issue is actual dimension you're likely to machine. The 1-1/2" doesn't have a whole lot of leeway. It's a tight squeeze to work with 1-1/2" material and a template.

If you anticipate working with stock 1-1/2"+ and you've got a solid performer for a router, the 2" is for you.

If you can't imagine the need to flush trim anything over 1-1/4" and/or you're working with a smallish router, then go 1-1/2".

Thanks @jeffinsgf should have thought to tag you. I'll use this bit in a big Triton 3+ HP so no issue there. I hadn't considered crowding the cutting length, great point. Sounds like it's the 2".

Appreciate the input.

RMW

ChuckS · « **Reply #4 on:** March 16, 2023, 08:30 AM »

Bear in mind that you can trim stock first with a bottom flush trim bit if you already have one, and then flip the stock over, and finish it with a top flush trim bit.

We all have a "I'm a sucker" drawer, and better check it out before doing any impulse buy. If you don't foresee using the flush trim bit, hold on until a project comes along that can benefit from it. Who knows? Maybe by the time you need the bit, you may have other options. A case in point, toolstoday sells a flat bottom drill bit I needed, and I found a similar bit from Snappy at $10US less, both made in USA.

rvieceli · « **Reply #5 on:** March 16, 2023, 09:37 AM »

Richard you might want to take a look at some of the new replaceable carbide inserts flush trim bits. I know that Amana makes some. I have also seen a spiral version like a helical head.

Ron

Packard · « **Reply #6 on:** March 16, 2023, 10:04 AM »

It looks like a cheaper version of the Whiteside bit, though I don’t understand the need for an up cut or down cut on a trim bit. A straight cut will not damage either the top or bottom surface.

https://www.whitesiderouterbits.com/products/udft5152?_pos=59&_sid=f87420062&_ss=r

Cheese · « **Reply #7 on:** March 16, 2023, 10:35 AM »

Just noticed something @jeffinsgf ...the 2-flute flush trim bits in both 1/4" & 1/2" diameter are available in both up-cut and down-cut versions. However, the 3-flute flush trim bit is available in the up-cut version only, why is that?

jeffinsgf · « **Reply #8 on:** March 16, 2023, 11:17 AM »

Quote from: Cheese on March 16, 2023, 10:35 AM

Just noticed something @jeffinsgf ...the 2-flute flush trim bits in both 1/4" & 1/2" diameter are available in both up-cut and down-cut versions. However, the 3-flute flush trim bit is available in the up-cut version only, why is that?

The down-cut geometry gets very complicated in a 3-flute. The angles don't play nicely together. We're working on it. It may join the club in the future, but not until it is right.

jeffinsgf · « **Reply #9 on:** March 16, 2023, 11:37 AM »

Quote from: Packard on March 16, 2023, 10:04 AM

It looks like a cheaper version of the Whiteside bit, though I don’t understand the need for an up cut or down cut on a trim bit. A straight cut will not damage either the top or bottom surface.

https://www.whitesiderouterbits.com/products/udft5152?_pos=59&_sid=f87420062&_ss=r

The spiral design keeps a part of the cutting edge in contact with the material at all times. Straight cutters cut, then there's a space, then there's another cut as the next blade comes in contact. That moment between losing contact and starting the next contact is where washboard finishes and catches come from. If you've ever used a straight bladed trim bit and travelled from end grain to side grain, you know what I mean.

By maintaining contact continuously, spiral bits avoid washboarding and are vastly less likely to catch or tear grain. Down side is the spiral has to go one way or the other. It either has to push the chip away from the router (down-cut) or pull the chip toward the router (up-cut). Up-cut is the more common approach, has simpler clearance geometry and evacuates the chips from the cut better. However, in certain types of plywood (Baltic Birch being one of them), an up-cut bit can cause chipping. Enter the down-cut, which slices down into the material, eliminating top face chipping. However, if you are cutting the complete edge you're now risking blow-out on the underside.

When you're using a template the argument for a down-cut bit is somewhat negated, because the template is supporting the material and pretty much eliminates chipping. There are some complications in 3-flute geometry when creating a down-cut, too. So for now, the 3-flute is only available in up-cut. I haven't tried it in BB yet, but I can tell you that in highly figured quilted maple it is the cleanest cutting, fastest cutting bit I've ever used.

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #10 on:** March 16, 2023, 12:04 PM »

I appreciate the input. To clarify, while I don't have a specific project lined up for this now, it'll get used. I just can't make the decision based on a current project's parameters.

The attraction to this bit is (1) cost (2) combination of cutting length/diameter & (3) spiral/3-flute geometry.

My overall philosophy is to outfit the shop with capabilities, rather than specific tools. I rarely need 48" bar clamps, but when I do, I'm not going to order them and wait. Making ~1-1/4" to 1-3/4" (or 2-1/2" + total with the cut/flip/cut method) template cuts is the capability this provides. That's how I justify all the tools to the boss, and myself. Besides...

RMW

Cheese · « **Reply #11 on:** March 16, 2023, 12:20 PM »

Quote from: Richard/RMW on March 16, 2023, 12:04 PM

My overall philosophy is to outfit the shop with capabilities, rather than specific tools. I rarely need 48" bar clamps, but when I do, I'm not going to order them and wait. Making ~1-1/4" to 1-3/4" (or 2-1/2" + total with the cut/flip/cut method) template cuts is the capability this provides.

I agree with your philosophy Richard 100%. I don't own 2 dozen 54" Bessey clamps, but I do own 3 so I have the capability, albeit at a very slow production rate. I bought those large Bessey clamps for a table top but first used them to make some form work for cement steps.

Nice to have options...

luvmytoolz · « **Reply #12 on:** March 16, 2023, 04:29 PM »

Quote from: rvieceli on March 16, 2023, 09:37 AM

Richard you might want to take a look at some of the new replaceable carbide inserts flush trim bits. I know that Amana makes some. I have also seen a spiral version like a helical head.

Ron

I bought a 55mm DOC x 30mm diameter spiral insert cutter, and it is by far the most useful router bit I own, I use it for template work, but it's also proved insanely useful for squaring up and routing straight edges using it in conjunction with a straightedge.

I recently had to do a bunch of White Oak skirtings, around 5m x 225mm high, and it made very short work of cutting a straight edge so I could then rip it to size with the saw.

They are fantastic!

https://www.csptooling.com/collections/custom-made-products/products/spiral-router-bits-with-replaceable-insert-knives

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #13 on:** March 16, 2023, 04:47 PM »

Quote from: luvmytoolz on March 16, 2023, 04:29 PM

Quote from: rvieceli on March 16, 2023, 09:37 AM
Richard you might want to take a look at some of the new replaceable carbide inserts flush trim bits. I know that Amana makes some. I have also seen a spiral version like a helical head.

Ron

I bought a 55mm DOC x 30mm diameter spiral insert cutter, and it is by far the most useful router bit I own, I use it for template work, but it's also proved insanely useful for squaring up and routing straight edges using it in conjunction with a straightedge.

I recently had to do a bunch of White Oak skirtings, around 5m x 225mm high, and it made very short work of cutting a straight edge so I could then rip it to size with the saw.

They are fantastic!

https://www.csptooling.com/collections/custom-made-products/products/spiral-router-bits-with-replaceable-insert-knives

Those look interesting. The only downside, for my use, is the 30mm diameter. 1/2" will get into some of the tight spots I encounter.

I've bookmarked one of these for future consideration, I do really like insert cutter tooling.

Thanks.

RMW

PaulMarcel · « **Reply #14 on:** March 16, 2023, 04:54 PM »

Quote from: luvmytoolz on March 16, 2023, 04:29 PM

...
They are fantastic!

https://www.csptooling.com/collections/custom-made-products/products/spiral-router-bits-with-replaceable-insert-knives

I've been watching these guys for a while and they seem to have really nice bits. Nice to see someone from here (i.e., tool picky) chime in to say they are good. They also seem to make customs pretty frequently. Might be a great way to build a catalog: make customs and see who else wants them. Keep the popular ones.

rvieceli · « **Reply #15 on:** March 16, 2023, 06:14 PM »

Here are Amana's offerings:

https://www.toolstoday.com/router-bits/flush-trim-router-bits.html?narrow=%5B%5B%22Cutting%20edge%20type%22%2C%22Insert%20Knives%22%5D%5D&sort_by=popularity

CMT

https://www.cmtorangetools.com/na-en/router-bits-with-insert-knives/pattern-flush-trim-router-bits-with-insert-knives

these folks have 2 sizes a 19mm and a 30 mm diameter spiral

https://www.findbuytool.com/collections/new-arrivals

CSP (mentioned above)

https://www.csptooling.com/products/spiral-router-bits-with-replaceable-insert-knives

Ron

luvmytoolz · « **Reply #16 on:** March 16, 2023, 06:28 PM »

Quote from: PaulMarcel on March 16, 2023, 04:54 PM

Quote from: luvmytoolz on March 16, 2023, 04:29 PM
...
They are fantastic!

https://www.csptooling.com/collections/custom-made-products/products/spiral-router-bits-with-replaceable-insert-knives

I've been watching these guys for a while and they seem to have really nice bits. Nice to see someone from here (i.e., tool picky) chime in to say they are good. They also seem to make customs pretty frequently. Might be a great way to build a catalog: make customs and see who else wants them. Keep the popular ones.

I was actually really surprised how balanced and smooth they are, on first use I was anticipating at least some vibration under load and needing to do very light cuts, but doing a 10mm wide cut on 35mm thick hard maple was like a hot knife in butter. They're amazingly good, and super quiet in use which is great.

Crazyraceguy · « **Reply #17 on:** March 16, 2023, 06:34 PM »

That's exactly my way of thinking too. Capability of tackling the unknown is always a concern, because I don't choose what I build.
I latched onto the insert tooling early-on. It is especially important with flush-trim and pattern bits.
Although I have access to a sharpening service, at no cost to me, you lose the flush when the bit gets smaller. With insert tooling, it takes a few minutes to turn or replace an insert. You are right back cutting again.

I have both the 30mm and 50mm cut length versions of the Amana (flush & pattern) with 1/2" shanks.
I keep both of the 30mm ones on Milwaukee 5615-21, the 50mm ones don't get used nearly as often. They reside in the router bit Systainer, with the rest of the investment

I have one of those compression "ultimate flush trim" bits too, but I save it for solid wood only.

I have never tried an insert-spiral router bit. How well do they cut? As smooth as a "real" spiral?

The big Besseys are extremely handy. I got a fantastic deal on them because of the large purchase of Festool equipment. They can't discount that, but they could on other stuff in the same purchase.
That's how I ended up with the Vario version of some of the longer ones. I may have never bought them otherwise, but I really like them. I've got (4) 98s, (2) 78, (2) 60, (4) 50.

I don't personally own any pipe clamps, but the shop has a bunch. Every once in a while we get out the 10' ones.

Lincoln · « **Reply #18 on:** March 16, 2023, 07:21 PM »

Quote from: Crazyraceguy on March 16, 2023, 06:34 PM

The big Besseys are extremely handy. I got a fantastic deal on them because of the large purchase of Festool equipment. They can't discount that, but they could on other stuff in the same purchase..

This 'loophole' has been well and truly closed by Festool Australia, unfortunately.

Packard · « **Reply #19 on:** March 16, 2023, 07:58 PM »

As long as we are on the subject of edge trimming, I have the CMT flexible template. You sketch the shape you want on your stock, and rough trim with a jig saw. Then screw the template onto the stock, replicating the drawn line. Then you use your trim router for the final contour.

It works.

I mounted the template on the unseen side of the stock and routed. If that is not possible, then use the flexible template to make a solid one from 1/2” thick MDF.

It comes in two sizes. The larger size will span a 4’ wide piece of plywood, but the smaller one can also, but done in sections.

festal · « **Reply #20 on:** March 17, 2023, 07:53 AM »

Quote from: luvmytoolz on March 16, 2023, 04:29 PM

Quote from: rvieceli on March 16, 2023, 09:37 AM
Richard you might want to take a look at some of the new replaceable carbide inserts flush trim bits. I know that Amana makes some. I have also seen a spiral version like a helical head.

Ron

I bought a 55mm DOC x 30mm diameter spiral insert cutter, and it is by far the most useful router bit I own, I use it for template work, but it's also proved insanely useful for squaring up and routing straight edges using it in conjunction with a straightedge.

I recently had to do a bunch of White Oak skirtings, around 5m x 225mm high, and it made very short work of cutting a straight edge so I could then rip it to size with the saw.

They are fantastic!

https://www.csptooling.com/collections/custom-made-products/products/spiral-router-bits-with-replaceable-insert-knives

I was looking at csptooling onces as well. My feed was filling up few months ago with people getting them. They have a true shear version which with shipping came out to be $175 to the NJ so that was a bit too much than i wanted to spend. THese are alot cheaper but wonder how do they compare to the true shear version .

Crazyraceguy · « **Reply #21 on:** March 17, 2023, 06:30 PM »

Quote from: Lincoln on March 16, 2023, 07:21 PM

Quote from: Crazyraceguy on March 16, 2023, 06:34 PM
The big Besseys are extremely handy. I got a fantastic deal on them because of the large purchase of Festool equipment. They can't discount that, but they could on other stuff in the same purchase..

This 'loophole' has been well and truly closed by Festool Australia, unfortunately.

I'm confused? How could they possibly dictate what a vendor does with the other products he carries?

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #22 on:** March 17, 2023, 07:37 PM »

Dang, just stumbled across the 1/4" flush trim bits, this might get expensive.

RMW

Packard · « **Reply #23 on:** March 17, 2023, 08:06 PM »

I have noticed the slight chatter in the edges trimmed with straight edge trimmers. But they quickly yield the the light sanding I will do in all cases.

I don’t think there is a persuasive argument for these expensive trimmers for most applications. I do see the cool-factor in using them, but not the need.

If I had them, I would certainly use them. But I would not part with my hard-earned money to buy them.

luvmytoolz · « **Reply #24 on:** March 17, 2023, 08:16 PM »

Quote from: Packard on March 17, 2023, 08:06 PM

I have noticed the slight chatter in the edges trimmed with straight edge trimmers. But they quickly yield the the light sanding I will do in all cases.

I don’t think there is a persuasive argument for these expensive trimmers for most applications. I do see the cool-factor in using them, but not the need.

If I had them, I would certainly use them. But I would not part with my hard-earned money to buy them.

One word, jointing!

The insert cutters apart from lasting several lifetimes if looked after, are absolutely fantastic for heavy planing, squaring stock, and edge jointing. Mine has gotten a huge workout on a bunch of white oak skirtings, that would have been very difficult for me to do any other way.

Not only did they save many hours of time, they did the job easily! I'd say that even though I'm just a hobbyist, mine easily paid for itself the first couple of times I used it!

SilviaS7 · « **Reply #25 on:** March 19, 2023, 09:29 AM »

I think I'm going to at least give the Woodpeckers flush trim bits a try. I've tried two flush trim bits recently on a project and it seems the cutter sticks out farther than the bearing, so I can't use the bearing as the guide, so it's like, what's the point? They're both straight cut bits so perhaps the spiral will give me a better result. Or I'm just dumb and not using it right (I've done it by hand and with my router table, neither gave the desired result). Anyway, it is probably due to lack of experience in my case, but I'm kind of a Woodpeckers fangirl because I dig supporting a company in my own back yard of Ohio.

Packard · « **Reply #26 on:** March 19, 2023, 09:54 AM »

Quote from: festal on March 17, 2023, 07:53 AM

Quote from: luvmytoolz on March 16, 2023, 04:29 PM
Quote from: rvieceli on March 16, 2023, 09:37 AM
Richard you might want to take a look at some of the new replaceable carbide inserts flush trim bits. I know that Amana makes some. I have also seen a spiral version like a helical head.

Ron

I bought a 55mm DOC x 30mm diameter spiral insert cutter, and it is by far the most useful router bit I own, I use it for template work, but it's also proved insanely useful for squaring up and routing straight edges using it in conjunction with a straightedge.

I recently had to do a bunch of White Oak skirtings, around 5m x 225mm high, and it made very short work of cutting a straight edge so I could then rip it to size with the saw.

They are fantastic!

https://www.csptooling.com/collections/custom-made-products/products/spiral-router-bits-with-replaceable-insert-knives

I was looking at csptooling onces as well. My feed was filling up few months ago with people getting them. They have a true shear version which with shipping came out to be $175 to the NJ so that was a bit too much than i wanted to spend. THese are alot cheaper but wonder how do they compare to the true shear version .

The CPS cutter is 55 mm in diameter. A more conventional cutter is 1/2” (12mm). So the CPS has a cutter speed that is roughly 4-1/2 times faster than a 1/2” router bit. I don’t know what that does to various materials, but it will put a very high torque load on your router.

Cheese · « **Reply #27 on:** March 19, 2023, 11:29 AM »

Quote from: Packard on March 19, 2023, 09:54 AM

The CPS cutter is 55 mm in diameter. A more conventional cutter is 1/2” (12mm). So the CPS has a cutter speed that is roughly 4-1/2 times faster than a 1/2” router bit. I don’t know what that does to various materials, but it will put a very high torque load on your router.

These are Festool's recommendations for router bit diameters to be used with their various routers:
1010...3 mm to 35 mm
1400...10 mm to 60 mm
2200...10 mm to 89 mm

So as long as that CPS 55 mm diameter cutter is used on a large enough router, it shouldn't be an issue.

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #28 on:** March 19, 2023, 01:30 PM »

Correction, the CPS cutter is 30mm diameter, 55mm is the cutter length.

Packard · « **Reply #29 on:** March 19, 2023, 03:36 PM »

My mistake, but still a fairly large diameter. I would not want to use it on an underpowered router.

Correction: Any router that can throw a raised panel bit can handle this. My 690, probably; my Makita, certainly. My Dewalt trim router, no.