Author Topic: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?  (Read 7523 times)

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Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 815
MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« on: November 26, 2020, 10:38 AM »
I see the TSO GRS-16 PE shown attached to the guide rail on a MFT/3 table to square the guide rail which is cool but they do not have the parallel guide rail connected in the images. Can it be connected so that in addition to square cuts on the MFT/3 you have a fence with rule?

This seems huge as you don’t need the fence to be square to the table, tightened down in a way so it has no deflection, and can produce perfectly measured square cuts immediately even if you decide to slide the guide rail Left/Right to make a new zero clearance in the MFT/3 table.

https://cdn8.bigcommerce.com/s-86e7d/product_images/uploaded_images/grs-16-pe-connects-perfect-square-to-mft-3-guide-rail.jpg

https://cdn8.bigcommerce.com/s-86e7d/product_images/uploaded_images/it-does-not-get-any-more-accurate-or-faster-than-this.jpg

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Offline 08G8V8

  • Posts: 132
Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2020, 10:53 AM »




I have the Right Angle Design setup and currently have mine setup this way with the 50” parallel guide. Can switch to the smaller 30” guide too.

I also have a BenchdogsUK fence, and had it setup before trying this setup. Both work good but using the TSO guide puts the fence right at the start of the cut, so less leaning over the table for smaller cuts with the fence at the back of the cut.


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Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 815
Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2020, 11:05 AM »
Wow, this seems incredibly powerful for me as I struggle with re-squaring the guide rail every time I have to adjust it’s height not to mention how the front locking mechanism can tilt Left/Right considerably.  I’m addition, this setup can be quickly removed which is great because my MFT/3 is also my outfeed table for my table saw and also so I can move it to the FS 3000 rail when I need to initially break down a 4x8 sheet on the floor.

Thanks for sharing!!

@TSO Products ... Hans, it seems you should add an image of this setup to your web page as this is incredibly powerful and I’d no idea this was possible and yet so simple.  ;D

Offline 08G8V8

  • Posts: 132
Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2020, 11:31 AM »
That’s the reason I decided to try this arrangement out.  Keeping the rail square to the fence isn’t really an issue, but to keep it square and calibrated for the scale on the fence was. Then I saw a post on a Facebook group with the TSO setup.

Like you say, you can remove it and put it back on and the setup is square and scale is calibrated.  Also, really easy to calibrate or check the scale calibration.


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Offline afish

  • Posts: 398
Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2020, 11:48 AM »
Not to be the curmudgeon of the thread but I dont like it.  I see the back edge of the parallel guide not being strong enough to maintain square and it being lifted with every cut only adds to the possibility of errors. There's a lot of stress on that when sliding/moving/bumping around big heavy panels.  You should be wanting to lock down everything as tight as possible.  The best system I came up with for square cuts with a MFT style bench (DIY built bench) was with a piece of 80/20 as a fence in combination with a rail hinge (also diy built) it wasn't as glamorous as a festool one but it was solid with no play at all.  I attached 2 angles along the back of the 80/20 and used parf anchor dogs to locate it into the MFT that stay permanently attached to the angle brackets.  This way the 80/20 can be attached/removed in seconds.  Then I attached flat plate (mending plate) as stops for common cabinet sizes and built a 3 sided U shaped wood stop that fits over the 80/20 snug but not tight.  The U shaped block sits on top of the 80/20 and butts to the mending plates that are screwed to the top.  Kind of like a flip stop without the flipping.  The U piece just gets picked up and moved to the different stops as needed or clamped for the occasional odd cut.  Leave the leg .125 short to leave room for dust to pass under it.   

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 815
Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2020, 12:18 PM »
With 50" of fence, there's a lot of leverage and chance to cause deflection, but this is the case whether you use the guide rail with or without the MFT ... the only difference I see is that there's probably less chance of deflection by bringing the fence to the panel versus bringing the panel to the fence but I suspect this is only the case if you're not gentle. 

My Incra fence on the MFT is mounted to the side extrusion and while very solid, it can be moved a bit if I force the wood against it which is why I push the wood to the fence semi-gently, slide it down to the flag stop, then pull the panel back just a bit, and more gently re-position it taking care to touch the panel up against the fence and not to push the fence out of position.

I like the 8020 and dog holes but this only works on the table and you're only as accurate as the holes are.  I'm not sure how off the holes can be but it seems the TSO square is only off by user error of pushing too hard, assuming it's square within some degree of accuracy from the beginning.

@08G8V8 ... do you notice any issues with deflection and cuts not being consistently square?  Do you push the wood to the fence gently, moderately, or like the Incredible Hulk?

Offline 08G8V8

  • Posts: 132
Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2020, 12:42 PM »
I started with making the top with the UKJ Parf guide, and planned to just use the rail clips from UJK to attach the rail and the BenchdogsUK fence and fence dogs, and it turned out my hole pattern was not dead square. I had to shim between my rail and rail dog to keep it square.

I decided to use the dog holes for clamping and not alignment.

I then added the Right Angle Design flip setup and squared my rail to the fence and this worked great, but was having issues keeping scale calibrated when moving. Not that you should ever need to move it often.

Since trying the TSO guide with the flip guide support I haven’t had any issues. I am aligning material to the guide without slamming it. I’m not mass producing anything. I have the long parallel guide on now as I was cross cutting at a 36” length, so the shorter 30” rail was swapped for the longer rail.  I see this as less stress than using the TSO guide and parallels on the floor as you are constantly moving it and setting it down to move materials, then picking it back up to locate for another cut, over and over. Folks using the TSO system in that manner gives the system very good reviews.

I have not been using the setup like this for long, but it is working for me. I can always swap back to the Benchdogs fence, and will be basically the same as the setup @afish is using, as the fence is basically 8020 profile material.


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Offline afish

  • Posts: 398
Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2020, 01:01 PM »
With 50" of fence, there's a lot of leverage and chance to cause deflection, but this is the case whether you use the guide rail with or without the MFT ... the only difference I see is that there's probably less chance of deflection by bringing the fence to the panel versus bringing the panel to the fence but I suspect this is only the case if you're not gentle. 

My Incra fence on the MFT is mounted to the side extrusion and while very solid, it can be moved a bit if I force the wood against it which is why I push the wood to the fence semi-gently, slide it down to the flag stop, then pull the panel back just a bit, and more gently re-position it taking care to touch the panel up against the fence and not to push the fence out of position.

I like the 8020 and dog holes but this only works on the table and you're only as accurate as the holes are.  I'm not sure how off the holes can be but it seems the TSO square is only off by user error of pushing too hard, assuming it's square within some degree of accuracy from the beginning.

@08G8V8 ... do you notice any issues with deflection and cuts not being consistently square?  Do you push the wood to the fence gently, moderately, or like the Incredible Hulk?

Sorry bugs, thats simply not true.  You can either adjust the the hinge for the track or adjust the 80/20 between where the 80/20 screws to the angle.  Which is where I decided to make my adjustments. Since I locked the DIY rail hinge from any adjustment side to side and it seemed like it would be easier to shim the 8020 fence for super fine adjustments. First I put the 80/20 down (I always used the same holes) and then squared the track as close as I could using the TSO MTR and mounted the hinge permanently. Then made a test cut using the 5 cut method and put the required shims (i used clear packing tape) between the 80/20 and the angle bracket.  The most important thing is to make sure EVERYTHING is locked down tight with no room for possible deflection otherwise you will be chasing the problem forever since the deflection will always vary slightly. 

Offline 08G8V8

  • Posts: 132
Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2020, 01:02 PM »
Also, you aren’t butting material to the parallel guide portion, only the TSO GRS which is firmly clamped to the rail. The parallel guides sit above the material.

The reference surface is only the length of the GRS, similar to the fence on your miter saw. Your reference surface for square is only as long as the miter saw fence, even though your stop block for length could be along your extensions very far from the blade.


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Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 815
Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2020, 01:18 PM »
@afish, I’m not sure why I didn’t consider the ability to shim things, good point!  I believe you said you’re not using the MFT table hit a custom table? 

My fence is solid and aligned with the extrusion as well as dog holes ... checked with square and super parf dogs set perpendicularly but it’s the rail that has to much opportunity to move ... 

Offline 08G8V8

  • Posts: 132
Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2020, 01:25 PM »
I initially tried to just rely on the dog holes, but found I wasn’t exactly square. I think I had to use .023” shim on the dog closest to the start off the cut.


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Offline ChuckM

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2020, 01:25 PM »
Not to be the curmudgeon of the thread but I dont like it. 

I wish to see more divergent views when I visit a forum or thread, instead of everybody nodding to each other -- trying to be politically correct. As long as the engagement is civil if it's spirited, I enjoy them.

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 815
Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2020, 01:26 PM »
Also, you aren’t butting material to the parallel guide portion, only the TSO GRS which is firmly clamped to the rail. The parallel guides sit above the material.

The reference surface is only the length of the GRS, similar to the fence on your miter saw. Your reference surface for square is only as long as the miter saw fence, even though your stop block for length could be along your extensions very far from the blade.


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Well, that’s great from the perspective that you’re not going to have any deflection because of the parallel guide.

It should be easier to produce more consistent results with a longer fence than a shorter one like the TSO but I’m curious what the accuracy and consistency is on the TSO.  For example, a WP square is accurate to .001” over 12” ... can the TSO guide rail square consistently achieve some similar accuracy?
« Last Edit: November 26, 2020, 01:31 PM by Bugsysiegals »

Offline afish

  • Posts: 398
Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2020, 01:30 PM »
Oh, I see that's better for deflection issues but brings up another issue trying to make sure the material is squarely against the GRS which is beyond easy view of sight (at least with my crappy sight) most of the time.  Here is the best pics I could muster of what I used to use.  I have been redoing everything in the shop and just tore down my MFT bench the other day and cut it down since I dont need it so big anymore.  I already removed the stops along the top of the 8020 so those arnt there anymore.  Hopefully it helps but there is zero deflection issues this way and no need to be super careful you can push/move or bump as firmly as you want its not going to budge and it gives a long reference edge to measure against. I used 8' of 8020 since I do a lot of full height cabs.  Plus the 80/20 pops on and off in seconds.  I think the 8020 and parts where about $100 bucks no expensive fences or MFT's 1 sheet of russian birch for bench, 1 sheet of MDF for top and 8020 parts, throw in a MFT drilling system (technically you dont need it since it only uses 2 holes) and everything still costs half of a MFT/3

Offline 08G8V8

  • Posts: 132
Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2020, 01:32 PM »
Not to be the curmudgeon of the thread but I dont like it. 

I wish to see more divergent views when I visit a forum or thread, instead of everybody nodding to each other -- trying to be politically correct. As long as the engagement is civil if it's spirited, I enjoy them.
I have no issue with afish not liking the setup. I am a novice and trying different things to see what works for me. I saw someone using this and decided to give it a try.  I only added my current setup when I came across this thread asking if someone has done such a thing. I’m just passing it along for use or criticism to help get a better setup. I have no problem reversing course and going back and tweaking my fence setup.


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Offline afish

  • Posts: 398
Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2020, 01:46 PM »
Glad to hear. I meant no offense.  I am usually straight to the point type of guy and sometimes it comes across as harsh, but its not intended to be. If it was trust me you would know it :)  I have done various forms of construction my entire (rough/finish/metal fab/ concrete) life. So, IM not new to it but I am newer to Festool items/process.  Doesnt really matter how long anyone has been doing it there is always room to learn and grow.   

Offline Pant

  • Posts: 12
Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2020, 04:30 PM »
I initially tried to just rely on the dog holes, but found I wasn’t exactly square. I think I had to use .023” shim on the dog closest to the start off the cut.

The dogs are almost surely not square vertically either (that fat collar makes it hard to check though) which means .023" shim will only work for the specific thickness you tested.  Properly tight dog holes also wear out quickly to develop slop and then the shims are different for every time you insert the dog. Dog holes are a fundamentally unworkable system for consistent high accuracy.

Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2020, 05:40 PM »
Our decisions are typically based on the available data so I always appreciate feedback whether it agrees with or goes against what I've said.

FWIW - I REALLY enjoy 8020.  As you may know, my outfeed table is built with 8020, and I was considering to build my Kapex miter station out of 8020.  As far as my MFT fence, the stock fence wasn't good enough, but I decided to use an Incra fence rather than 8020 mainly because I've bad vision in my Left eye and an astigmatism. 

I can line up an end stop to a measure and it will look different with both eyes open and will also look different between each individual eye opened even if I move the open eye directly over the mark!  Because of this, and maybe even if I had better vision, I really like being able to calibrate a rule/end stop system once, and be able to quickly drop the end stop to the measure, move it, move it back, and confidently reproduce the exact same measure, as quickly as possible.  Not only is it quick and accurate but because of my eyes and desire to get an exact measure it saves me a good deal of time ... and it's not just for predefined end stop points but any point on the scale.

Another bonus is my fence is 99% off the table which gives me a generous cross cutting capacity when compared to setting up 8020 after the back row of holes ... I suppose I could fabricate brackets for 8020 to use the side rails so this isn't a concern.  The downside of mounting to the rail profile is that it takes a minute to reinstall as opposed to bench dogs.  I hardly need to switch back and forth as I don't get much time in the shop but certainly can appreciate that convenience for the times you do use it.

All that said, I just made a video to illustrate the maximum deflection with me purposefully bending the fence back with a lot more pressure than it should see in reality to show the maximum possible deflection.  From what I see it seems my fence is very solid and reliable under normal usage but you can judge for yourself.  But even if the fence is solid, the guide rail requires more effort than I'd like, and is not always consistent thus why I really like the TSO guide rail with parallel guide rail.  You still think it wouldn't be consistent in this usage?

I've some people over but will update the video shortly ...



Offline 08G8V8

  • Posts: 132
Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2020, 08:30 PM »
I initially tried to just rely on the dog holes, but found I wasn’t exactly square. I think I had to use .023” shim on the dog closest to the start off the cut.

The dogs are almost surely not square vertically either (that fat collar makes it hard to check though) which means .023" shim will only work for the specific thickness you tested.  Properly tight dog holes also wear out quickly to develop slop and then the shims are different for every time you insert the dog. Dog holes are a fundamentally unworkable system for consistent high accuracy.
What are you trying to say?  The fence doesn’t index off the fat part of the dog. The table was basically brand new at this stage and I discovered the holes were not producing a 90 degree cut, and it was off by the shim value.


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Offline afish

  • Posts: 398
Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2020, 08:31 PM »
I initially tried to just rely on the dog holes, but found I wasn’t exactly square. I think I had to use .023” shim on the dog closest to the start off the cut.

The dogs are almost surely not square vertically either (that fat collar makes it hard to check though) which means .023" shim will only work for the specific thickness you tested.  Properly tight dog holes also wear out quickly to develop slop and then the shims are different for every time you insert the dog. Dog holes are a fundamentally unworkable system for consistent high accuracy.

Agreed, I tried all methods with dogs and while a good idea in theory it produces unreliable results and as you say the taller the dog the worse it gets.  However that has not been my experience with the anchor dogs.  Since the force applied to the dog is right at the table surface there is no leverage to tilt the dog.  They have held up extremely well and developed no slop even after many uses.  Im willing to bet that the top would need to be replaced do to other issues before you wore out the 2 holes and even if you did manage to wear them out you could just move it over one hole to the left or right and recalibrate if needed or drill a couple more holes in between the 96mm C-C space.  As far as attaching it to the MFT and retaining full capacity that seems pretty easy to me.  If you could fashion a upside down L shape from some scrap ply and flip it upside down with the short leg facing up and away.  Attach the long leg to the MFT with T bolts or whatever fits in the extrusion so the top of the short leg is flush with the MFT top. Drill 2 - 20mm holes in the short leg to accept the anchor dogs. The wood L could probably stay attached 99% of the time without interfering with anything.  As you say though using the mft it probably doesnt need to be so easily removable.  For me the MFT bench was also my outfeed table so I needed it to go on and off quickly without any loss of accuracy. I struggled with squareness at first but after switching it was spot on all the time.     

Offline afish

  • Posts: 398
Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2020, 09:08 PM »
So, I just did a quick test with a dial indicator and I have about .005" total deflection combined for both push and pull.  For some reason I have more deflection pulling the fence toward me .004" and I get .001" pushing away for me. That's measuring in the middle of the table where I get about .001" just pushing down on the MDF so some of that .005 is the MDF top bowing.  Regardless, you will be pushing away most of the time and I can deal with one thou of deflection.  Im not sure how much force im applying since I dont have a scale to measure it but im applying as much force as my hand can comfortably tolerate I would guess more than 30# less than 50#.  I will also say you cannot feel the .005" deflection it feels solid as a rock.  I pushed and pulled each way 5 or 6 times and each time it returned to within .0005" of zero Thats with no clamping or screwing the dogs in from underneath just sitting the dogs into the holes.  Im not sure if there is a better way, thats within CNC repeatable tolerances. 

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 815
Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2020, 09:23 PM »
My brother stopped by for Thanksgiving whom I seldom get to see so that was a real delight. We deep fried a Turkey and all I can say is I might be deep frying Turkey for the rest of my life!!  The crispy skin and flavor was nothing short of amazing and sooo much better than baking a Turkey.

Ok, as promised, I’ve uploaded the video of me showing my MFT fence and how much deflection it has in worst case scenario which is minimal IMO but let me know what you guys think and whether the TSO can produce reliable consistent results, if I should stay with my fence for my eye issues and get the TSO triangle to more accurately align the guide rail, etc., etc.

« Last Edit: November 26, 2020, 10:17 PM by Bugsysiegals »

Offline afish

  • Posts: 398
Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2020, 09:32 PM »
I have never had fried turkey but do want to try it.  Sounds good.

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 815
Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2020, 09:34 PM »
Can you see my video linked?  It doesn’t show on my phone for some reason.

About the Turkey, if I could bag the skin and preserve it, it would sell better than beef jerky... it was seriously good and the meat was super moist. I’m not sure what my wife marinated it with but we deep fried at 325-350 for 3.5 minutes per pound or 50 minutes for 14 lbs in this case.

Offline afish

  • Posts: 398
Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2020, 09:52 PM »
no video, on either of my computers.

Offline GoingMyWay

  • Posts: 1173
Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2020, 10:16 PM »
You need to use the full youtube.com URL in order for the video to embed correctly:

Inquiring Minds Want to Know

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Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 815
Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2020, 10:18 PM »
I've gone to YouTube and clicked the "shareable link" option and then pasted it into the post.  If this isn't the full link then how do I obtain it?  It seems I've done this method in the past without any issues?  BTW, thanks for sharing the video for me!!

Offline GoingMyWay

  • Posts: 1173
Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2020, 10:29 PM »
Using the shareable, shortened URL (youtu.be) seems to be the problem.  The forum software should be, but unfortunately isn't able to properly convert that URL.  I copied the full URL (youtube.com) from a browser window.

It was no trouble at all!
Inquiring Minds Want to Know

TS55, CT26, RO150, CXS, ETS 150/3, ETS EC 150/5, MFT/3, TS75, DF500, DTS400, OF1400, CT SYS

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 815
Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2020, 10:39 PM »
That’s interesting as I also copied the URL from the browser after it wasn’t showing the video but that linked appeared the same on my iPhone.  Strange but anyways now I know ... thanks again!!

Offline afish

  • Posts: 398
Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2020, 10:41 PM »
I had to watch with no sound but will watch with sound tomorrow.  I like the fence better than what I was picturing in my head but there is still more deflection there then I would want.  Also running the fence under the rail helps A LOT.  I had to cut my 8020 down to slide under which made a noticeable difference in helping keep the sheet squarely pressed against the fence.  the smaller the part the more it helps.  I tried at first with it like yours and didnt like it.  Made a big difference.   

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 815
Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2020, 10:51 PM »
There’s definitely ability to move the rail backwards but I’m pushing much harder than the rail would see from holding a panel firmly to the fence. Even still, I pushed it very hard and couldn’t detect the board deflecting at the splinter strip. I’m sure I could make the brackets a bit thicker behind the fence to further reduce any movement but not sure how it would turn out trying to cut the fence to have some bit fit under the guide rail especially thin enough to cut the 3/8” BB panels.  At least there’s plenty of options and people who kindly share them so many different things to try if one isn’t satisfied!!

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline MikeGE

  • Posts: 219
Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2020, 04:36 AM »
There’s definitely ability to move the rail backwards but I’m pushing much harder than the rail would see from holding a panel firmly to the fence. Even still, I pushed it very hard and couldn’t detect the board deflecting at the splinter strip. I’m sure I could make the brackets a bit thicker behind the fence to further reduce any movement but not sure how it would turn out trying to cut the fence to have some bit fit under the guide rail especially thin enough to cut the 3/8” BB panels.  At least there’s plenty of options and people who kindly share them so many different things to try if one isn’t satisfied!!

I watched your video, and it appears you have a lot of movement in the reference points, specifically the rail brackets and the fence.  However, as you noted, the force required to move the fence is likely more than you would use in practice, but it is still there.  I doubt you will gain any stability by using the TSO Guide Rails in your setup. 

How much flex does the edge of the MFT rail have where your fence is mounted?  By fixing the extrusion to the work surface with four dogs, I can't budge the fence.  Granted, you will lose a bit of cutting width by using the dog holes instead of the MFT rail, but are you normally cutting boards that wide?

Like others, I used the aluminum extrusion for the fence, with a lip to fit under the guide rail.  In my case, the thinnest material I can cut like this is 12mm, but if I need to cut thinner material, I'll layer it on a sacrificial board to increase the height to the point where the fence will fit under the rail.



Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 815
Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2020, 06:32 AM »
I’m surprised you also doubt the stability of the TSO guide rail ... I see so many people who are claiming they’re highly accurate and even a test to within .001” on a 5 cut square. Most don’t mention using it on the MFT but several have with positive feedback .. I’d assume it would function the same?  Have you seen many people with issues or complaints about the TSO guide rails?

The MFT extrusion seems firm ... it’s the mount itself which can bend if pushed really hard. Even though it doesn’t see that force in reality, I’d be much more comfortable if it was solid. Whether I stick with Incra or switch to 8020, it seems both could be mounted with the dogs and t-slot ... which dogs are you using for the fences for where can I order them?

I’ve only cut 4 cabinets on the MFT so far and the only pieces that wide have been the backs which are solid as these are mobile cabinets on casters for the shop. Worst case on the rare occasion I can move a large panel to the floor on foam board like I do when breaking down full 4x8 sheets.

Nice fence!  How did you rip and cross cut it so cleanly?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2020, 10:06 AM by Bugsysiegals »

Offline afish

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2020, 07:52 AM »
I just watched again with sound this time.  The video helped visualize not only possible issues but also how and why you use it the way you do. Here are my main takeaways.

1. It is used as table saw outfeed so fast and accurate on and off is required.
2. Fence needs to extend under the track
3. Maintain Incra fence if possible
4. beef up or swap festool track hinge for RAD hinge or slop stop
5. Eliminate as much deflection as possible everywhere only then can you focus on square.

#1. The 3d brackets are nice in theory but since they have both unacceptable deflection issues and could be made easier to remove and install I think a totally new and better way to attach the fence is required.  I notice it looks like there is slots in the bottom of the fence.  Can a anchor dog be attached in the slot and then be placed in a 20mm hole? We need to not only locate the rail squarely each time but also accurately each time left-right so the scale isnt off and maintains repeatability.

#2. This makes a huge difference in cut stability.  You are going to lose some length of the fence so keep that in mind not sure if you use the full length now.  I dont have a band saw so I just used a aluminum blade in my miter saw and adjusted my depth stop to leave about 1/2" just under actually but you will want to look at the end of the incra fence to make sure you are leaving enough aluminum behind to maintain some structural integrity as Im not familiar with it. Just under 1/2" seems like the sweet spot as the other posted mentioned strong enough to maintain rigidity and thin enough to handle most cutting tasks and if need you can always pack up with some scrap if needed for cutting really thin sheets. Make a bunch of cuts in the extrusion so it looks like you are making a heat sink. Then bend the fins back and forth to break them off and clean up with a grinder and file.  If you noticed I used a wider piece of 8020 for this to help aid in maintaining a strong straight one piece design even after notching the 8020 You dont really need a high fence shorter and wider is better and I used the heavy wall for this reason as well.

#3. I do understand your vision problems and how the incra track helps. So, I get keeping it if possible. However I did like being able to attach a Joining plate to the top of the 8020 for doing repeatable cuts like a flip stop. So its not the end of the world if you have to ditch the incra. Maybe you could repurpose it to the miter saw if you do.

#4. I couldnt tell from the video how much of an issue the festtol tack hinge is causing. I only know from hearing from others its not greatest and has some sloppiness problems.  Im pretty sure the right angle design one is better.  No matter which you choose you need to make sure that it is raising and lowering 90° to the table if it isnt then the fence will be out of square depending on height. I had guides on both sides of the bracket so when I did move it up and down there was no side to side movement and stayed square.

#5. Have you considered selling the MFT and possibly going to a bigger MFT type table?  Instead of fighting the current system. You should be able to build something that spans over the top of your current 8020 cart which is real nice BTW.  but Im thinking bigger so you can have more flexibility on a fence system without losing any cross cut capacity. In addition to more rigidity and ability to cut full sheets on a bench instead of the floor :( It doesnt have to be a full 4x8 since you seem to have some space limitations.  Im thinking max out the size that you can comfortably in the space you have then if needed make a folding MFT to help a family member check out the chestnut folding mft design. They fold up pretty compact and look like a nice option or keep the MFT3 as an additional support but I dont know about the height difference between the table saw and MFT3 with the chestnut type you can make it whatever height you want. 

edit: just watched again looks like the cart is on castors so bigger MFT bench that is self supporting and the 8020 cart can simply roll under it.  Id slap a MFT type top on it to for an extra assembly table.  So when needed you can roll it out from under and do some glue ups or clamping on it. 
« Last Edit: November 28, 2020, 07:52 AM by afish »

Offline afish

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2020, 08:37 AM »
I also just remembered after looking at my pics again. The anchor dogs have a small 45° shoulder on them.  I did have the holes I used to set the fence in chamfered to accept them fully However I sold the UJK chamfer tool with the Parf guide MKII when I sold it so the holes the anchor dogs are in are not chamfered. Since I cut down the bench I just tossed the 8020 in a random set of holes for the pics and deflection test and didnt think about it in my haste. In the photos and you can see about 30-40 thousands of a gap between the bottom of the angle bracket and the MDF top.  Im confident that if the holes where chamfered that .005" of movement I was getting would be decreased even more or eliminated completely.  As Im sure there is some rocking motion happening and not having the bracket flat to the bench is weakening the rigidity somewhat.

Offline MikeGE

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #35 on: November 27, 2020, 09:33 AM »
I’m surprised you also doubt the stability of the TSO guide rail ..
. I see so many people who are claiming they’re highly accurate and even a test to within .001” on a 5 cut square. Most don’t mention using it on the MFT but several have with positive feedback .. I’d assume it would function the same?  Have you seen many people with issues or complaints about the TSO guide rails?

I should have stated my comments differently.  My experience with the TSO Guide Rail has been great, but I have only used it away from my MFT-style table.  The first time I used it, with the FS 1400/2, was to cut the ends of the 19mm Valchromat board that became the top for my workbench.  After making the cuts, I measured the diagonal dimensions of the 1x2 meter top with my tape measure, and I couldn't see any difference between the two diagonals.   

I have no complaints at all when using the FS and TSO as a stand-alone guide, but I would never use it on a workbench if I had the means to fit a more secure fence that is aligned with my FS rail.

Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #36 on: November 27, 2020, 10:05 AM »
#1. The 3d brackets are nice in theory but since they have both unacceptable deflection issues and could be made easier to remove and install I think a totally new and better way to attach the fence is required.  I notice it looks like there is slots in the bottom of the fence.  Can a anchor dog be attached in the slot and then be placed in a 20mm hole? We need to not only locate the rail squarely each time but also accurately each time left-right so the scale isnt off and maintains repeatability.

Where can I find these anchor dogs?  Do they have any slop/play in them?  Do they sit above the table or flush with the table?

I see these which are flush and perhaps what you use ... Parf Anchor Dogs or something like this TSO Dogs.

#2. This makes a huge difference in cut stability.  You are going to lose some length of the fence so keep that in mind not sure if you use the full length now.  I dont have a band saw so I just used a aluminum blade in my miter saw and adjusted my depth stop to leave about 1/2" just under actually but you will want to look at the end of the incra fence to make sure you are leaving enough aluminum behind to maintain some structural integrity as Im not familiar with it. Just under 1/2" seems like the sweet spot as the other posted mentioned strong enough to maintain rigidity and thin enough to handle most cutting tasks and if need you can always pack up with some scrap if needed for cutting really thin sheets. Make a bunch of cuts in the extrusion so it looks like you are making a heat sink. Then bend the fins back and forth to break them off and clean up with a grinder and file.  If you noticed I used a wider piece of 8020 for this to help aid in maintaining a strong straight one piece design even after notching the 8020 You dont really need a high fence shorter and wider is better and I used the heavy wall for this reason as well.

I may have a solution where I don't need to chop up any fences but it depends how snug these anchor dogs or some other dogs fit.  I've 2 Super Parf Dogs, 2 UJK Guide Rail Clips, and the chamfer tool.  I set the SPD's vertically in the first/last holes, pull the guide rail snug to them, and tighten down the hinge in the rear, the alignment pin in the front, and then remove the SPD's ... I've not left the SFD's in and used the UJK clips because I'd lose crosscut capacity but maybe this would be more accurate than the stock MFT adjustable brackets?

Next, assuming the MFT holes are accurately positioned, the SPD's when fitted in a chamfered hole remain accurate, and there's some low profile dogs which sit just above the table and can be fitted snug and accurately, it seems I could drop several of them horizontally in the last row of holes to be the fence.  Because of the positioning of my guide rail, I could even fit one under the guide rail close to the splinter strip. For repeatable cuts, I would mount my Incra parallel guide T-Track to the top of these dogs using the threaded hole in the dogs and slot in the bottom of the T-Track.  The T-Track piece is up front so the T-Track would be recessed and wouldn't touch the panel but I could set end stops which would touch the edge of the panel.  If the dogs which sit above the table aren't snug but the anchor dogs which sit flush are, I could either cut the larger Incra fence or switch to the lower profile T-Track which is only slightly taller than the larger fence cut would be.

Here's pics of what I'm talking about.  FWIW - I've a picture of my modified Incra parallel guide for precise repeatability but if I mounted the track to the dogs I'd have to revert to the stock Seneca end stops which I've also shown.

323571-0 323573-1 323575-2 323577-3

#4. I couldnt tell from the video how much of an issue the festtol tack hinge is causing. I only know from hearing from others its not greatest and has some sloppiness problems.  Im pretty sure the right angle design one is better.  No matter which you choose you need to make sure that it is raising and lowering 90° to the table if it isnt then the fence will be out of square depending on height. I had guides on both sides of the bracket so when I did move it up and down there was no side to side movement and stayed square.

I don't think it's a huge issue as I pull it snug against the SPD's and then lock it down.


#5. Have you considered selling the MFT and possibly going to a bigger MFT type table?  Instead of fighting the current system. You should be able to build something that sits on top of your current 8020 cart which is real nice BTW.  but Im thinking bigger so you can have more flexibility on a fence system without losing any cross cut capacity. In addition to more rigidity and ability to cut full sheets on a bench instead of the floor :( It doesnt have to be a full 4x8 since you seem to have some space limitations.  Im thinking max out the size that you can comfortably in the space you have then if needed make some folding MFT like the chestnut design if you need to help a family member since they fold up pretty compact or keep the MFT3 as an additional support but I dont know about the height difference between the table saw and MFT3 with the chestnut type you can make it whatever height you want. 

edit: just watched again looks like the cart is on castors so bigger MFT bench that is self supporting and the 8020 cart can simply roll under it.  Id slap a MFT type top on it to for an extra assembly table.  So when needed you can roll it out from under and do some glue ups or clamping on it.

I'd not considered selling the MFT but that's not a bad idea!  It's on casters and while only 4040 extrusion it is fairly sturdy but I'm not opposed to something stronger.  FYI - when I break down full sheets, I either lay it across my table saw and outfeed table (5x5 BB) or in the garage (4x8 plywood).
« Last Edit: November 27, 2020, 10:16 AM by Bugsysiegals »

Offline afish

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2020, 10:13 AM »
Yes the Parf anchor dogs you linked to are the ones.  No slop see my other posts using just 2 my 8020 rail is rock solid.  Only deflecting .001" when getting pushed on. Holes drilled with parf 20mm bit.  going out for walk so will look at rest when I return

Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #38 on: November 27, 2020, 10:18 AM »
Yes the Parf anchor dogs you linked to are the ones.  No slop see my other posts using just 2 my 8020 rail is rock solid.  Only deflecting .001" when getting pushed on. Holes drilled with parf 20mm bit.  going out for walk so will look at rest when I return

Thanks for the quick reply, I ordered 3 pairs of the anchor dogs which I hope will be plenty, should fit well with the chamfered edges, and should be useful regardless which direction I go with this...
« Last Edit: November 27, 2020, 11:32 AM by Bugsysiegals »

Offline afish

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #39 on: November 27, 2020, 12:48 PM »
Yes they are handy. I also make adjustable stops with them and some scraps of BB similar to the TSO TDS ones but I just put a single 8mm grove and a cheap 8mm star knob from amazon. Works really good with the LR32 system.  As far as dogs go I dont use them for squaring or cutting unless I have a set of holes dedicated to the anchor dogs that I have verified with the 5 cut test.  Dogs rarely sit square in all directions even the supers which I also have.  So I dont trust them the taller the dog the worse it gets.  That's part of the issue too whenever you have any variances nothing is consistent, that's why I said you need to lock everything down as tight as possible first then concentrate on squaring. I know its all little amounts when looked at separately seem insignificant but once you start adding everything up it creates problems as you found out with your drawer bottoms.  Then on top of that by the time you are done cutting up the job and routed dados, drilled shelf pins the panels can be flipped in such a way that the sum of all those small errors are now doubled when its time to assemble.  I stand by my earlier suggestions lock everything down tightly no play on anything, extend the fence "solidly" under the track, and you should start to see much better and consistent results.

As far as the MFT I would seriously consider selling it and building a larger more permanent MFT outfeed table and putting another MFT type table on top of your sys cart and store it under the outfeed. so you can have a seperate table to assemble on and a separate cutting station. Im not sure about the hole size on a MFT either there seems to be some variances between hole sizes depending on what made the hole I can say that the 20mm UJK bit is a perfect match for the anchor dogs and so is the ujk chamfer tool. 

Offline afish

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #40 on: November 27, 2020, 01:04 PM »
Im not 100% sure what you have going on with the dogs to try and eliminate cutting up any rails but if your trying to use the small dogs under the track for extra support where the fence doesn't reach. No no,  you want a nice straight and preferably as long as possible straight edge to reference the track squarely off of.  Some places sell a second piece that attaches to the main fence that is shorter to slip under the track.  Im not a fan of that either. Straight, long and one piece lessens any chance of introducing errors, wider is better so its more rigid with no chance of deflection since there's not a lot of material left after chopping it down. Im perhaps a little more OCD on it then I need to be but Id rather be safe than sorry and have no issues.   

Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #41 on: November 27, 2020, 01:32 PM »
Much appreciated @afish!!  I considered buying the UJK drilling jig but seen at least one person who had the 3mm holes oblong after drilling their table and so I figure it might be better to try and get my buddy with a CNC to just cut a 4x8 sheet for me in hopes those holes would be snug and best chance of being aligned. 

Offline MikeGE

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #42 on: November 27, 2020, 02:03 PM »
Much appreciated @afish!!  I considered buying the UJK drilling jig but seen at least one person who had the 3mm holes oblong after drilling their table and so I figure it might be better to try and get my buddy with a CNC to just cut a 4x8 sheet for me in hopes those holes would be snug and best chance of being aligned.

My only use of the UJK Parf MK2 kit, so far, was to make the 200 holes in my workbench top.  The 200th hole was just as perfect as the 1st.




Offline afish

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #43 on: November 27, 2020, 02:05 PM »
I dont think I would by the system again either (sorry peter).  For me the MFT is great system for fixturing and clamping but not for precise, repeatable cutting some might disagree but there is to much room for error depending on the person doing the drilling.  Its a very boring and monotonous job drilling an entire 4x8 I tend to start rushing and holes get drilled slightly off or out of plumb apparently etc.  Not horribly so but it can be enough to mess you up later.  The bit itself probably wouldn't hurt to have so you can  add holes as needed.  If no cnc is available I would just lay out the 96mm grid by hand center punch the center for a starting point and drill the holes free hand and use them for clamping only.  Then just drill a few holes for the anchor dogs on the fence a little more carefully. These also dont need to be super critical (but they do need to fit the dog snugly) if you need to tighten up the dog hole spray some lacquer in the hole and the mdf will swell and harden slightly making a tighter and more durable dog hole.  Since the angle brackets can slide anywhere along the 8020 and the track gets squared off of the 8020 those holes can be placed just about anywhere and dont have to use the 96mm grid unless you want. Once the 8020 is in its location square the track off of that. Any fine tuning can be done with shims between one of the brackets as needed to really dial it in.  I was only off by the thickness of one piece of that clear packing tape that goes on a packing gun. It shouldn't take much to really dial it in if you have a good square to start with. 
« Last Edit: November 28, 2020, 08:00 AM by afish »

Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #44 on: November 27, 2020, 02:31 PM »
Yes they are handy. I also make adjustable stops with them and some scraps of BB similar to the TSO TDS ones but I just put a single 8mm grove and a cheap 8mm star knob from amazon. Works really good with the LR32 system.  As far as dogs go I dont use them for squaring or cutting unless I have a set of holes dedicated to the anchor dogs that I have verified with the 5 cut test.  Dogs rarely sit square in all directions even the supers which I also have.  So I dont trust them the taller the dog the worse it gets.  That's part of the issue too whenever you have any variances nothing is consistent, that's why I said you need to lock everything down as tight as possible first then concentrate on squaring. I know its all little amounts when looked at separately seem insignificant but once you start adding everything up it creates problems as you found out with your drawer bottoms.  Then on top of that by the time you are done cutting up the job and routed dados, drilled shelf pins the panels can be flipped in such a way that the sum of all those small errors are now doubled when its time to assemble.  I stand by my earlier suggestions lock everything down tightly no play on anything, extend the fence "solidly" under the track, and you should start to see much better and consistent results.

As far as the MFT I would seriously consider selling it and building a larger more permanent MFT outfeed table and putting another MFT type table on top of your sys cart and store it under the outfeed. so you can have a seperate table to assemble on and a separate cutting station. Im not sure about the hole size on a MFT either there seems to be some variances between hole sizes depending on what made the hole I can say that the 20mm UJK bit is a perfect match for the anchor dogs and so is the ujk chamfer tool.

About replacing the MFT, the top of the MFT is 188mm above the top of the sys cart and is 20mm below the top of the table saw.  If I remove the MFT and build a stationary 8020 outfeed table using 4080 profile for strength, I'm left with 127mm (1mm drop from table to outfeed so panels don't catch) to build a portable MFT style assembly table.  This would probably be 2x 4040 profile with 28mm posts between them and 19mm MDF on top?  I'm not sure how it would compare to the MFT/3 but could probably be portable in that I could carry it to the garage and put it on saw horses if I needed?

Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #45 on: November 27, 2020, 02:37 PM »
Im not 100% sure what you have going on with the dogs to try and eliminate cutting up any rails but if your trying to use the small dogs under the track for extra support where the fence doesn't reach. No no,  you want a nice straight and preferably as long as possible straight edge to reference the track squarely off of.  Some places sell a second piece that attaches to the main fence that is shorter to slip under the track.  Im not a fan of that either. Straight, long and one piece lessens any chance of introducing errors, wider is better so its more rigid with no chance of deflection since there's not a lot of material left after chopping it down. Im perhaps a little more OCD on it then I need to be but Id rather be safe than sorry and have no issues.

I was saying to use the dogs as the fence and if they barely protrude above the table they could stretch the entire table including underneath the guide rail.  I said this since they seem to fit really snug and if they're all aligned then why not use them as a fence.  In this way the fence doesn't need to be cut since the panels never touch the fence.  Rather, the fence is mounted on top of the dogs and since the T-Track slot on the fence is up front and the threaded hole of the dog is in the middle the fence would simply sit just a bit forward than the middle of the dog but not touching any panels ... only the end stop(s) would touch.  Since the dogs are independent of each other this assumes the holes are perfectly aligned and there's no slop in the dogs which is what I assumed based on your advising how stiff your fence was ... but that's with anchor dogs which sit in the chamfered hole ... I was thinking if they made a short dog with chamfer ring on it and only slightly protruding above the surface...

Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #46 on: November 27, 2020, 02:38 PM »
My only use of the UJK Parf MK2 kit, so far, was to make the 200 holes in my workbench top.  The 200th hole was just as perfect as the 1st.


I guess it just depends how careful you are while drilling the 3mm holes through the SS template.  Maybe this guy had to big of a bit, couldn't hold steady, or maybe it's inevitable to wear out after so many times drilling through it?

Offline afish

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #47 on: November 27, 2020, 03:06 PM »
Your post about replacing the MFT confused me a bit.  What I was thinking is a stationary workbench with a MFT style MDF top.  Whatever size you can fit behind your saw. 4x8, 3x7 just kind of depends on how much space you have.  looks like you have a basement shop so you probably dont want to carry full sheets into the basement unless its a walkout. Otherwise I would want something big enough to break down a full sheet.  I would suggest getting a sheet of russian birch and make a bench from that first and live with it for a bit and see how you like it before investing in the 8020 and selling the MFT.  This way if you hate it your only out a small investment and can go back to what you have now.  All I did was ripped up a 4x8 sheet into 4" strips and built the entire thing from those. I doubled up the stringers in the 8 ft length for extra strength and to any prevent sagging.  Pocket screwed some spreaders in between the stringers and made the legs out of 2 pieces and screwed them in the corners of the stringer/spreader joint.  I brought the legs in about 14-16 inches from the ends for some shop cabinets on each end.  This left me about 56" in between the legs for a lower shelf but you will need to delete the shelf for the sys cart to slide under and may need to adjust the legs out to accommodate the cart. Yes its a little more work to build it twice but You might find that the birch version is fine.  Until you add the cabinets on the end it wont be rock solid but once I added the cabinets it took out any racking.  You could just add some diagonal bracing if you dont want to build any cabinets.

Offline afish

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #48 on: November 27, 2020, 03:41 PM »
 I did a real quick sketch showing what I was talking about.  You probably dont even need the legs this way but I was toying with the idea of being able to remove the cabinets for mobile use.  drawn as 47x97 but you might want to shrink it down.  I didnt get crazy drawing shelf holes etc. just down and dirty overall basic idea.  The cab's I built were .5" RB the bench was .75"  I packed out the face of the front 2 legs so they were flush and drilled 20mm holes vertically to accept dogs for when I used to iron on edge banding :( you can add t track to the front rail too if you like.  I tend to evolve quickly with different configurations so I try not to get to carried away on shop furniture/fixtures etc.  no toe kick, just some scraps of .5" RB for feet. No doors but doors are nice for keeping the dust out.  One side I had pull outs for dewalt tough system boxes and the other was just adjustable shelving.   
« Last Edit: November 27, 2020, 03:46 PM by afish »

Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #49 on: November 27, 2020, 06:13 PM »
Your post about replacing the MFT confused me a bit.  What I was thinking is a stationary workbench with a MFT style MDF top.  Whatever size you can fit behind your saw. 4x8, 3x7 just kind of depends on how much space you have.  looks like you have a basement shop so you probably dont want to carry full sheets into the basement unless its a walkout. Otherwise I would want something big enough to break down a full sheet.  I would suggest getting a sheet of russian birch and make a bench from that first and live with it for a bit and see how you like it before investing in the 8020 and selling the MFT.  This way if you hate it your only out a small investment and can go back to what you have now.  All I did was ripped up a 4x8 sheet into 4" strips and built the entire thing from those. I doubled up the stringers in the 8 ft length for extra strength and to any prevent sagging.  Pocket screwed some spreaders in between the stringers and made the legs out of 2 pieces and screwed them in the corners of the stringer/spreader joint.  I brought the legs in about 14-16 inches from the ends for some shop cabinets on each end.  This left me about 56" in between the legs for a lower shelf but you will need to delete the shelf for the sys cart to slide under and may need to adjust the legs out to accommodate the cart. Yes its a little more work to build it twice but You might find that the birch version is fine.  Until you add the cabinets on the end it wont be rock solid but once I added the cabinets it took out any racking.  You could just add some diagonal bracing if you dont want to build any cabinets.

Yes, you said to build a stationary workbench, and slide the sys cart underneath, with some MFT type table on top of it.  I was telling the dimensions I could put on top of the sys cart which would still fit underneath the stationary workbench, assuming it was built with 4080 Aluminum extrusion and 3/4" MDF top.  I carried 10x 4'x'8'x3/4' Maple plywood, 6x 5'x5'x5/8" BB, and 6x 5'x5'x3/8" BB down here and still have a few sheets left.  It was a real pain and I'm not sure I want to ever do that again but am not sure how well they'll hold up on a plywood cart in the garage which isn't air conditioned or heated?  I hope to someday have a heated garage which I can make my shop in which will be much more convenient!

Offline afish

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #50 on: November 27, 2020, 06:16 PM »
Why are you building another structure on top of the current cart?  Why not just pull off MFT and put MDF top over the exiting frame?

Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #51 on: November 27, 2020, 07:21 PM »
It sounded like you said to build a smaller MFT table on top of the mobile sys cart.  If you were simply saying to put MDF on top then it already has that and just needs dog holes.

Offline afish

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #52 on: November 27, 2020, 07:28 PM »
Sorry, yes that's what I meant. Just something to pull out and use for glue ups,  assembly etc. so your not disrupting the cutting station.

Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #53 on: November 27, 2020, 07:52 PM »
Ok, seems I could build a decent top but how will I attach the guide rail in the front/rear in a way that’s adjustable yet stronger, consistent, and 90 degrees to the fence holes?

Offline afish

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #54 on: November 27, 2020, 08:02 PM »
Im not sure how the bracket on the MFT attaches to the MFT. However,  the RAD one works with t track or the bracket can probably just be screwed to the side of the table.  I built my own out of .5 R.B. It wasnt pretty but worked good.  Here is a link to the RAD looks like they are changing their name or something this has good feedback from what I have seen. track hinge

Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #55 on: November 27, 2020, 08:04 PM »
Thanks!!

Offline 08G8V8

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #56 on: November 30, 2020, 06:55 PM »
Bugsy, is this the profile of the Incra track you are using?  I assume it is from what I see on their website. 

I like the idea of using a 8020 profile, but want to have a built in scale. This profile looks like it would be pretty easy to cut/modify to have support under the rail. 

If this is the profile you are using, how tall is the portion marked on the attachment if the center vertical flanges were cut away for the under the rail area?




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Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #57 on: November 30, 2020, 07:54 PM »
Yes, that's the same fence.  It's just short of 9mm from the bottom to the lowest point of the t-slot and 10.5mm to the top of that rib you highlighted.

While I never force material against the fence, I've ordered the anchor dogs which should help with consistency and ease of use removing and re-installing the Incra fence.  If needed, I've 4040 profile I can use, but see no reason why this Incra fence wouldn't be stable enough unless I hire a gorilla to start cutting my panels.  [laughing]

I'm not sure how I'll get the fence aligned and anchor dogs mounted tightly yet but I'm sure I'll figure it out ... if there's anything in particular you'd like to see, let me know, but I'm curious, I thought you liked the TSO guide rail and parallel guides on your MFT?

Offline 08G8V8

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #58 on: November 30, 2020, 08:11 PM »
Yeah, it’s been working good. I’ve got some drawers to build for a cart I recently built so I’ll get some more use with the current setup. I am just considering the idea of using the Incra fence.


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Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #59 on: December 03, 2020, 06:11 PM »
I just got my anchor dogs and can confirm they will not work with this Incra fence.  The anchor dogs are 8mm and the bottom slot will only fit 6mm.

I've Seneca parallel guides which use a thin Incra T-Track which can fit an 8mm bolt shaft but the max width is 11.80mm which is to small for a M8 bolt head or socket head cap screw head.  I see they make 8mm male to 6mm female thread reducers so maybe with a little loctite this would allow the thin Incra rail to work. Assuming it’s sturdy enough with 3-4 dogs I’d think it would work great as it doesn’t need to be ground down to fit under the fence, is light weight, and can have flag stops setup with a rule.  I may just buy some to test it out ...
« Last Edit: December 03, 2020, 06:51 PM by Bugsysiegals »

Offline afish

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #60 on: December 03, 2020, 07:20 PM »
Bugs, the incra rail looks like it has a t-track across the back why not use a couple angles like I did off the back side?  Or just widen the bottom slot with a file a couple mm's if you go this way you will have to square the track hinge to the fence since you wont be able to shim the fence but that's not a huge deal.

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Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #61 on: December 03, 2020, 07:43 PM »
By the time I fabricate brackets, drill them, shim them, etc., I'd have spent more time than it might be worth than to just spend $15 on these threaded reducers.  BTW, the threaded reducers are 10mm tall so I still have thread left at the bottom if I wanted to throw a star knob underneath to really tighten it down.

FWIW - The Incra fence has a bottom slot width of 10.00mm and the bolts are 9.90mm.  While not perfect, I suspect I could add a few pieces of sticky note paper to the side of the bolt to further reduce this or might not need to at all since the bolt will twist sideways a bit and remove all gap once the anchor dogs are tightened?

323762-0 323764-1




Offline afish

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #62 on: December 03, 2020, 08:31 PM »
that looks like it will work.  It also looks like you could just drill a hole in the center of the incra track in between the 2 t-slots. If you didnt want to wait for the inserts.  You would just have to try and get them on the 96mm spacing.

Offline ChuckM

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #63 on: December 03, 2020, 09:19 PM »
By the time I fabricate brackets, drill them, shim them, etc., I'd have spent more time than it might be worth than to just spend $15 on these threaded reducers. 

There're countless YouTube "instructional" videos put there about spending hours and hours on making something that can be bought with ease.... I value my time in anything but re-inventing the wheel. Different strokes for different folks.

Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #64 on: December 03, 2020, 09:50 PM »
I’m cheap when it comes to paying for something I can do, especially when it comes to more expensive things. For example, we had our vehicle at the dealership and they said while they had the engine apart they could do the timing belt for $500 which included free labor. I said heck no I can get the parts for under $200. I ended up doing the job myself and it was a pain ... I dropped my phone and a ratchet down into a spot I spent 30m fishing it out of, my 1/2” extension fell down and hit me in the face (could’ve lost a tooth), and so on and so forth. I laughed it all off and my wife let me keep the labor cost towards more tools which is great but at some point your time and lack of issues to deal with become invaluable.

Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #65 on: December 09, 2020, 09:38 PM »
I've been able to install the Incra rail with Anchor Dogs on the MFT/3 and not only do I love how quickly the fence can be removed/installed but most importantly it retains its exact squareness to the fence after every removal/install!!  The only negative is the loss of a few inches of cutting capacity but it wasn't needed in most cases to begin with and I'm switching to a home made 8020 cutting station so this is a no brainer.

Regarding the fence squareness ... I'm able to remove/re-install the fence, place my 12" WP triangle to the fence/guide rail, and cannot slip a 0.0015" feeler gauge between either ... #WINNING.  FWIW - this is with the guide rail being attached by 2 Super Parf Dogs with chamfered collars and UJK guide rail clips since it's probably how I'll attach it to begin with on a 8020 cutting station.

Regarding the fence rigidity... I used a dial indicator, pushed HARD against the TOP of the Incra fence, and measured max deflection of 0.020" with 3D printed brackets and max deflection of 0.013" with Anchor Dogs (no fasteners underneath the table).  While I'd love the deflection to be lower (I had it down to 0.006" when I first tested before switching to 3D printed brackets and then back), I do not push the wood hard enough to the fence that the top bends backwards so I'm not worried at this point and will see if it's an issue once I cut a few panels.

Thanks @afish for the Anchor Dog recommendation ... besides fabricating some flip stops, it seems this will be my new fence solution for now! :)

Top view with M8 to M6 threaded reducer
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Bottom view ... plenty of room to attach a M8 star knob underneath the table if needed.
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Aligning the Anchor Dogs to the MFT/3 holes.
324032-2

I originally placed these in the front t-track but moved them to the bottom so the Super Parf Dog wasn't obstructing the front of the fence.  I could switch these if I drilled another hole further back for the Super Parf Dog and may do this on my 8020 cutting station.
324034-3

324036-4

324038-5

Offline afish

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #66 on: December 09, 2020, 10:27 PM »
I'm glad it all worked out for you.  Im sure you will notice a big improvement in your cuts.  FWIW I still advocate for extending the fence under the track. I think you will notice a huge difference in the solidness of your cutting. 

Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #67 on: December 09, 2020, 10:32 PM »
Thanks!  I’ll probably cut it at some point but just wanted to get it up and working so I could confirm it works.

That said, will the fence loose any accuracy when I make a top with the Parf Guide?  I’m not sure if those holes are slightly larger and if the accuracy can compete as good as the CNC’d top ...

Offline afish

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #68 on: December 09, 2020, 11:06 PM »
No, the bit that came with my Parf MKII fit the anchor dogs perfectly.  Im not sure about the MFT holes but I thought I remember reading they were a little looser.  Dont worry about hole squaring accuracy.  You can drill 2 extra holes as far back as you wish to gain a little more cross cut capacity.  They dont even need to be super accurate since you are squaring the track to the fence the dog hole placement doesnt really matter anymore.  You just need to be close enough so you are not binding the track.  You would probably need to be 1/8" out before that became an issue. 

Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #69 on: December 10, 2020, 10:16 AM »
They dont even need to be super accurate since you are squaring the track to the fence the dog hole placement doesnt really matter anymore.  You just need to be close enough so you are not binding the track.  You would probably need to be 1/8" out before that became an issue.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by they don't need to be super accurate ... rows/columns need to be perpendicular in order that the fence which mounts in a row is square to the rail which mounts in a column.

Offline 08G8V8

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #70 on: December 10, 2020, 10:36 AM »
What hardware attaches the anchor dog to the fence? 


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Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #71 on: December 10, 2020, 11:15 AM »
What hardware attaches the anchor dog to the fence? 


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You can see the images above but they're M6 hex head bolts which fit almost perfectly (minimal play) into the bottom t-tracks and M8 to M6 thread reducers/adapters I found on eBay which cost $15 for 5.

M8 to M6 Thread Reducer / Adapter


Offline afish

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #72 on: December 10, 2020, 12:07 PM »
I just took another look at the most recent pics.  I see you are using dogs for the track now.  You had the track hinge before.  I like the track hinge more.  this way the dog holes dont matter.  As mentioned before I'm not super familiar with the festool track hinge but cant it be slid along the aluminum profile and locked in anywhere along it?  Using the track hinge:

1.Drill 3 holes along the back for your anchor dogs as far back as you can while still leaving some material around the dog.  Im thinking around 30mm from back edge to center.  These holes shouldn't need to be perfect. Its important that they are in a straight row but they dont have to be perfectly square to the existing dogs they will be close anyways but we aren't talking to the thousands here.

2. Set incra rail in place.

3. slide rear track hinge until track almost touches the fence but leave 1/16" gap and lock it in.

4. Slide front track hinge in and mate it to the track so the little pin is in the track.

5. Now square the front bracket according to the fence to track using the biggest most accurate square you have in my case it was the TSO MTR  which works out well since it has the stand off pins so the track doesn't have to flat on the table.

6. Tighten down the front bracket.

Now your fence to track should be very square independent of the dog holes. I had made my track hinge so it would drop below the surface of the table so I never had to remove it.  If for some reason the Festool doesnt drop low enough you will have to come up with a way to make a stop so the front and rear track hinge brackets always locate to the same spot IF you need to remove them for any reason but thats only if. As I said mine stayed all the time but my 4x8 bench wasnt portable either. 

You can do a 5 cut test to double check and fine tune if you want to get it super precise.  This is where I used a shim between the 8020 and angle bracket since my track hinge was now locked in.  That was the easiest place to make the adjustment for me. You will need to adjust the front hinge bracket. (clamp a block of wood next to the bracket and use the appropriate feeler gauge to make the adjustment) the adjustment should be so minor that you cannot just tap it over.   As I mentioned you need to make sure all slop is removed from the hinge bracket both front and rear.  You also need to make sure if and when you raise and lower the F/R hinge brackets they travel perfectly square to the top, otherwise you will be throwing your part out of square but I dont use the festool bracket so you will have to look at that.  The dashboard unit looks like they have some parallel guides that hug either side of the bracket which looks like it would work well. 

I think the main problem with dogs is if or when they are drilled the drill is held perfectly square to the top.  If not the hole ends up slightly out of square.  The problem is compounded by every hole being potentially different amount and angle some might be out of square in the X or Y direction and all of varying amounts.  If its done on a CNC hopefully its less of an issue but that still depends on how well the spindle is trammed and how square the gantry is.  A lot of people think that just because its cut on a CNC its perfect but the CNC only cuts as good as the guy who set it up.  The leverage on a dog also makes it easy to knock them out of square to.  Not the holes but the squareness of the dog to the table. Repeated use also makes the dog hole looser and the problems get worse. The taller the dog the easier it is.  If the dog is out of square the farther the track is spaced from the top the more out of square your part will be.  Switch your dog to a different hole and all bets are off.  The super dogs or knobs from under help but if the hole is not square you are doomed. Check your dogs with a good square from both directions X and Y and see how square they are then see how far you can deflect them by applying some lateral pressure from the side.  The anchor dogs work fine since they dont project out of the table so its not really an issue.  This is why I only use dogs for clamping.  If I was out in the field and just needed to make a square trim cut then OK too but as far as building a whole set of cabinets I get more finicky and want my stuff as close to perfect as possible to avoid compounding the problem.   
« Last Edit: December 10, 2020, 12:15 PM by afish »

Offline afish

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #73 on: December 12, 2020, 05:39 PM »
Check this thread herefor the track hinge I was talking about.( I think it a different name now)  See how both sides of the vertical section is constrained?  This looks much more solid to me than the festool version.  I have never handled the festool one but it hard to tell from photos what keeps it Z axis movement perfectly vertical.  Or how much side to side movement here is when the latch is loosened.  When you release the lock and pull it up can you also move it side to side at all?  If so that's an issue and would require you to resquare the track each time it was adjusted. I would also put the track flat on the table and clamp a square vertically next to it.  Then raise the track and see if it is still touching the square at the top of its travel when locked. 

Offline MikeGE

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #74 on: December 12, 2020, 07:05 PM »
Check this thread herefor the track hinge I was talking about.( I think it a different name now)  See how both sides of the vertical section is constrained?  This looks much more solid to me than the festool version.  I have never handled the festool one but it hard to tell from photos what keeps it Z axis movement perfectly vertical.  Or how much side to side movement here is when the latch is loosened.  When you release the lock and pull it up can you also move it side to side at all?  If so that's an issue and would require you to resquare the track each time it was adjusted. I would also put the track flat on the table and clamp a square vertically next to it.  Then raise the track and see if it is still touching the square at the top of its travel when locked.

I don't have any affiliation with the Dash-Board Guide Rail Bracket other than being a very happy owner.  As you described, the Z-axis movement of the brackets are rock steady because the slides are supported on both sides for the full length of travel.  Rob makes two versions of this, one for the Festool track, and the other for extrusion with T-track on the side.

I intentionally chose to set up my guide rail so it aligns over a row of dog holes.  The reason escapes me now, but it was valid at the time, and since I've already routed the top for the sacrificial strip, I'm not changing it.  I've removed the guide rail from the bracket several times to use the full length of the workbench, and the alignment of the rail is still perfect.

Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #75 on: December 13, 2020, 02:26 PM »
I just took another look at the most recent pics.  I see you are using dogs for the track now.  You had the track hinge before.  I like the track hinge more.  this way the dog holes dont matter.  As mentioned before I'm not super familiar with the festool track hinge but cant it be slid along the aluminum profile and locked in anywhere along it? 

I purchased the Parf Super Dogs and UJK Dog Clips in May of 2019 after watching videos by @Peter Parfitt and Dave Stanton in which they both demonstrated accurate square cutting capabilities using this combo; however, I didn't buy them to use on the MFT/3 but rather for the Dave Stanton bench which I'd planned to be my next project.

As you know, I upgraded my MFT/3 with the Incra fence which I mounted to the Aluminum extrusion.  Since the extrusion is supposed to be aligned with the dog holes, it was obvious I needed to also align the guide rail to the dog holes.  The PSD's worked excellent to quickly align the guide rail to the dog holes, which happen to be square to the fence, but only work while it's flat on the table because both Festool hinges can rotate counter clockwise by -0.3 degrees and clockwise by +0.8 degrees.  As you said they need to remain square/perpendicular as they're raised and that's not the case ... once I raise the guide rail off the table, it's easy for it to no longer be square.

Even though I had both I'd never tried the dogs/clips together and was interested to test the squareness ... to my surprise, I couldn't fit a 0.0015" feeler gauge between either end of a 12 WP square!  I'm not sure if it's the chamfered collars, the expansion rings, properly drilled holes, all of the above, etc. but the PSD's on my MFT/3 are perfectly perpendicular to the table top resulting in perfectly square fence/guide rail at all heights.

The pictures you seen are me testing this squareness with this combo.  I've not yet cut anything with this combo but would bet I produce more consistently square cuts with this combo than the stock Festool hinge system.  I'm going to break down another drawer bottom sheet, slightly over sized just in case, and will advise how accurate this setup is for me. 

That said, I agree a properly designed hinge system should be superior than dogs but figured I need to try this before investing in an aftermarket hinge system especially since I already have the parts and it seems to be exclusively used by Peter and Dave.

Stay tuned ...

Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #76 on: December 13, 2020, 02:37 PM »
BTW, thanks for sharing that hinge system ... does it attach to both metric (4080) and imperial (1530) profiles?

If it stays perfectly perpendicular to the table top, I suspect it would outperform the dogs which in theory lose accuracy over time as the holes wear ... @Peter Parfitt, do you find the dog holes on your cutting station have worn over time to any measurable loss of accuracy related to square cuts?

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #77 on: December 13, 2020, 03:13 PM »
BTW, thanks for sharing that hinge system ... does it attach to both metric (4080) and imperial (1530) profiles?

If it stays perfectly perpendicular to the table top, I suspect it would outperform the dogs which in theory lose accuracy over time as the holes wear ... @Peter Parfitt, do you find the dog holes on your cutting station have worn over time to any measurable loss of accuracy related to square cuts?

I have only recently replaced my tracksaw cutting station with a new one. The original had been created with the very first Parf Guide System off the production line and was as good at the end as it was at the start. The new one is even more accurate as it was produced with the Mark II system.

So, to answer your question, it does not lose accuracy over time - certainly not in my workshop.

Cheers.  Peter

Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #78 on: December 13, 2020, 03:19 PM »
BTW, thanks for sharing that hinge system ... does it attach to both metric (4080) and imperial (1530) profiles?

If it stays perfectly perpendicular to the table top, I suspect it would outperform the dogs which in theory lose accuracy over time as the holes wear ... @Peter Parfitt, do you find the dog holes on your cutting station have worn over time to any measurable loss of accuracy related to square cuts?

I have only recently replaced my tracksaw cutting station with a new one. The original had been created with the very first Parf Guide System off the production line and was as good at the end as it was at the start. The new one is even more accurate as it was produced with the Mark II system.

So, to answer your question, it does not lose accuracy over time - certainly not in my workshop.

Cheers.  Peter

Thanks Peter, good to know it has served you well ... if it works for me also, I can put the aftermarket hinge towards some other Festool!  [big grin]

Offline 08G8V8

  • Posts: 132
Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #79 on: January 24, 2021, 07:50 PM »
Yes, that's the same fence.  It's just short of 9mm from the bottom to the lowest point of the t-slot and 10.5mm to the top of that rib you highlighted.

While I never force material against the fence, I've ordered the anchor dogs which should help with consistency and ease of use removing and re-installing the Incra fence.  If needed, I've 4040 profile I can use, but see no reason why this Incra fence wouldn't be stable enough unless I hire a gorilla to start cutting my panels.  [laughing]

I'm not sure how I'll get the fence aligned and anchor dogs mounted tightly yet but I'm sure I'll figure it out ... if there's anything in particular you'd like to see, let me know, but I'm curious, I thought you liked the TSO guide rail and parallel guides on your MFT?
I decided to go with the Incra fence like you.  Just felt a full fence was best and now I can remove the fence easily, and even move it to the middle of the bench for shorter cross cuts to prevent excessive reaching, even though my bench is only 36” wide.  I cut away a portion to have full support beneath the rail.  I also decided to go with the metric version in the start of converting to metric.

The Shop Stop is also very easy to recalibrate when needed.




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Offline afish

  • Posts: 398
Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #80 on: January 24, 2021, 08:08 PM »
I like it  [wink] looks like square cuts ahead. That piece that extends under the track is essential in my opinion. I tried without it and it made a huge difference.  Let us know how it works out for you after some cutting. 

Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #81 on: January 24, 2021, 11:33 PM »
Funny, I’ve the Incra mounted with anchor dogs and found some cuts off by 0.5mm which isn’t terrible but enough to annoy me. After further inspection, I can see the fence still has some deflection when pushed on. Unfortunately because I’ve inserted the M8 to M6 thread reducer I cannot fasten from underneath the table to see if that would remove it. 

I’ve recently acquired the TSO close fit dogs which fit perfectly and in combination with Parf Super Dogs result in 0.002” accuracy so now I’m considering to try them as my fence, I can even get one under the guide rail by the cut, and a TSO parallel guide on the guide rail for setting the width.  It seems like it could work well and doesn’t cost me anything to experiment but worst case I may buy the fence dogs for the Incra since those can be shimmed and easily tightened with a star knob below...

So ... how did you mount the Incra?

Offline 08G8V8

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #82 on: January 25, 2021, 05:25 AM »
I used 4 of the UJK anchor dogs with the same threaded inserts as you. I do not notice any deflection, but will keep on eye out to verify. I do have fence dogs that would allow anchoring from below the table if I need to swap them out.


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Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #83 on: January 25, 2021, 08:47 AM »
Now that I think about it, I caused the issue ... it did not have any deflection when first installed.

I removed the anchor dogs a week ago, applied blue loctite to the threads (they kept coming loose), and installed the fence. I found the fence was just slightly out of square and so I tapped on one side with a rubber mallet thinking it would help make sure the flat side of the bolt was flat against the t-track. While the fence did become square, not only does it have small deflection, I just noticed my TSO close fit dogs have a small bit of play and did not have previously!

My top is finished with shellac so I’ll try to put some inside the hole and see if that helps for now but will likely have to replace the top ... thanks fully MDF is only $30 a sheet. 

This does make me wonder about the longevity of dog holes when mounting a piece of wood when hand planing, chiseling, or anything else which puts a decent lateral force on the dog holes.  Perhaps it would be better to use the Vac system attached to the extrusion to retain the best possible accuracy of the dog holes ...

Offline 08G8V8

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #84 on: January 25, 2021, 08:57 AM »
I wanted to keep the anchor dogs as tight as possible to the fence so they don’t come loose if/when I remove the fence to have full access to the table. I used hex bolts with a shank just long enough to not protrude past the threaded insert, leaving just enough thread in the anchor dog to thread in a 8mm bolt from below once the fence was in place, then tightening the 8mm bolt and then removing it to do the same to all 4 locations. The anchor dogs are very solidly connected now.

I used blue loctite on the threaded insert, but not on the hex bolts. If I see it losing clamp up I will add some.


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Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #85 on: January 25, 2021, 10:17 AM »
Thanks for the explanation ... my hex bolts from the fence go all the way to the bottom of the anchor dog as I wasn't planning to fix anything from the bottom but I should replace them with shorter bolts as you've done just in case. 

That said, I don't understand why you threaded a M8 into the bottom and then removed it?

Offline 08G8V8

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #86 on: January 25, 2021, 10:39 AM »
You can’t really secure the dogs to the fence without the dogs in the holes.

Once the fence is installed all the dogs are exactly where they need to be. Threading a 8mm bolt until it bottoms out on the threaded insert allows you to snug up the dog to the bottom of the fence on the 6mm bolts. Then just back off the 8mm bolt and do the next dog.

I have the BenchdogsUK fence as well, with the fence dogs, but any time I removed the fence the dogs moved on me slightly. And since the scale is etched into the fence and you just use flag stops for cut length, I had to recalibrate the guide rail square to the fence and at a specific position to maintain the scales accuracy. Now with the Incra and its Shop Stop, the guide rail might be at a slightly different location if removed and re-installed and squared, but the stop can be micro-adjusted based in this slightly newer position.

This is the reason I went from the BenchdogsUK fence to using the TSO guide rail square and parallel guide. The TSO is automatically squared, and calibration if needed is super quick and easy. Now with the Incra, I have a much longer fence for reference and recalibibration is quick and easy.


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Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #87 on: January 25, 2021, 12:20 PM »
Now I understand what you were doing.  I'd fitted the fence with the dogs semi-tight, pulled it out, tightened by hand just a bit, re-inserted the fence, rinse-repeat until they were aligned and snug.  Then using latex glove I gripped the anchor dog and twisted it as tight as I could.  They've not come lose but obviously the 8mm bolt would have been the easier method! :)

I added some shellac to the inside of the fence holes and everything is back to being snug but I still notice I can flex my fence which is strange  ... maybe because I'm using the t-slot in the rear of the fence ... are you using the one in front?

Offline 08G8V8

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #88 on: January 25, 2021, 12:23 PM »
Yes, I’m using the front slot for my dogs.


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Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #89 on: January 26, 2021, 02:51 PM »
Yes, I’m using the front slot for my dogs.


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I mounted mine from the back because my guide rail is mounted with Parf Super Dog which was standing in front of the Incra fence ever so slightly.  I'm going to build a wider MFT table so if my TSO close fit dogs with TPG doesn't work out as planned I'll try the Incra again with the bolts in the front t-slot ... thanks for clarifying!

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 815
Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #90 on: January 26, 2021, 03:01 PM »
BTW, how did you end up cutting the Incra fence and getting a decent finish?

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Offline 08G8V8

  • Posts: 132
Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #91 on: January 26, 2021, 03:23 PM »
I used a hack saw and a grinder with a cutoff wheel to get it close, then just used a grinding disc to get the vertical webbing close to flush, and then used a file to get it flush or very close to flush.

A band saw would make much quicker work if it, but don’t have one.


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Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 815
Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #92 on: January 26, 2021, 03:49 PM »
I used a hack saw and a grinder with a cutoff wheel to get it close, then just used a grinding disc to get the vertical webbing close to flush, and then used a file to get it flush or very close to flush.

A band saw would make much quicker work if it, but don’t have one.


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Thanks ... same here ... no band saw as I always find some other tools I think I will use more often.