Author Topic: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?  (Read 7547 times)

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Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2020, 10:51 PM »
There’s definitely ability to move the rail backwards but I’m pushing much harder than the rail would see from holding a panel firmly to the fence. Even still, I pushed it very hard and couldn’t detect the board deflecting at the splinter strip. I’m sure I could make the brackets a bit thicker behind the fence to further reduce any movement but not sure how it would turn out trying to cut the fence to have some bit fit under the guide rail especially thin enough to cut the 3/8” BB panels.  At least there’s plenty of options and people who kindly share them so many different things to try if one isn’t satisfied!!

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Offline MikeGE

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2020, 04:36 AM »
There’s definitely ability to move the rail backwards but I’m pushing much harder than the rail would see from holding a panel firmly to the fence. Even still, I pushed it very hard and couldn’t detect the board deflecting at the splinter strip. I’m sure I could make the brackets a bit thicker behind the fence to further reduce any movement but not sure how it would turn out trying to cut the fence to have some bit fit under the guide rail especially thin enough to cut the 3/8” BB panels.  At least there’s plenty of options and people who kindly share them so many different things to try if one isn’t satisfied!!

I watched your video, and it appears you have a lot of movement in the reference points, specifically the rail brackets and the fence.  However, as you noted, the force required to move the fence is likely more than you would use in practice, but it is still there.  I doubt you will gain any stability by using the TSO Guide Rails in your setup. 

How much flex does the edge of the MFT rail have where your fence is mounted?  By fixing the extrusion to the work surface with four dogs, I can't budge the fence.  Granted, you will lose a bit of cutting width by using the dog holes instead of the MFT rail, but are you normally cutting boards that wide?

Like others, I used the aluminum extrusion for the fence, with a lip to fit under the guide rail.  In my case, the thinnest material I can cut like this is 12mm, but if I need to cut thinner material, I'll layer it on a sacrificial board to increase the height to the point where the fence will fit under the rail.



Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2020, 06:32 AM »
I’m surprised you also doubt the stability of the TSO guide rail ... I see so many people who are claiming they’re highly accurate and even a test to within .001” on a 5 cut square. Most don’t mention using it on the MFT but several have with positive feedback .. I’d assume it would function the same?  Have you seen many people with issues or complaints about the TSO guide rails?

The MFT extrusion seems firm ... it’s the mount itself which can bend if pushed really hard. Even though it doesn’t see that force in reality, I’d be much more comfortable if it was solid. Whether I stick with Incra or switch to 8020, it seems both could be mounted with the dogs and t-slot ... which dogs are you using for the fences for where can I order them?

I’ve only cut 4 cabinets on the MFT so far and the only pieces that wide have been the backs which are solid as these are mobile cabinets on casters for the shop. Worst case on the rare occasion I can move a large panel to the floor on foam board like I do when breaking down full 4x8 sheets.

Nice fence!  How did you rip and cross cut it so cleanly?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2020, 10:06 AM by Bugsysiegals »

Online afish

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2020, 07:52 AM »
I just watched again with sound this time.  The video helped visualize not only possible issues but also how and why you use it the way you do. Here are my main takeaways.

1. It is used as table saw outfeed so fast and accurate on and off is required.
2. Fence needs to extend under the track
3. Maintain Incra fence if possible
4. beef up or swap festool track hinge for RAD hinge or slop stop
5. Eliminate as much deflection as possible everywhere only then can you focus on square.

#1. The 3d brackets are nice in theory but since they have both unacceptable deflection issues and could be made easier to remove and install I think a totally new and better way to attach the fence is required.  I notice it looks like there is slots in the bottom of the fence.  Can a anchor dog be attached in the slot and then be placed in a 20mm hole? We need to not only locate the rail squarely each time but also accurately each time left-right so the scale isnt off and maintains repeatability.

#2. This makes a huge difference in cut stability.  You are going to lose some length of the fence so keep that in mind not sure if you use the full length now.  I dont have a band saw so I just used a aluminum blade in my miter saw and adjusted my depth stop to leave about 1/2" just under actually but you will want to look at the end of the incra fence to make sure you are leaving enough aluminum behind to maintain some structural integrity as Im not familiar with it. Just under 1/2" seems like the sweet spot as the other posted mentioned strong enough to maintain rigidity and thin enough to handle most cutting tasks and if need you can always pack up with some scrap if needed for cutting really thin sheets. Make a bunch of cuts in the extrusion so it looks like you are making a heat sink. Then bend the fins back and forth to break them off and clean up with a grinder and file.  If you noticed I used a wider piece of 8020 for this to help aid in maintaining a strong straight one piece design even after notching the 8020 You dont really need a high fence shorter and wider is better and I used the heavy wall for this reason as well.

#3. I do understand your vision problems and how the incra track helps. So, I get keeping it if possible. However I did like being able to attach a Joining plate to the top of the 8020 for doing repeatable cuts like a flip stop. So its not the end of the world if you have to ditch the incra. Maybe you could repurpose it to the miter saw if you do.

#4. I couldnt tell from the video how much of an issue the festtol tack hinge is causing. I only know from hearing from others its not greatest and has some sloppiness problems.  Im pretty sure the right angle design one is better.  No matter which you choose you need to make sure that it is raising and lowering 90° to the table if it isnt then the fence will be out of square depending on height. I had guides on both sides of the bracket so when I did move it up and down there was no side to side movement and stayed square.

#5. Have you considered selling the MFT and possibly going to a bigger MFT type table?  Instead of fighting the current system. You should be able to build something that spans over the top of your current 8020 cart which is real nice BTW.  but Im thinking bigger so you can have more flexibility on a fence system without losing any cross cut capacity. In addition to more rigidity and ability to cut full sheets on a bench instead of the floor :( It doesnt have to be a full 4x8 since you seem to have some space limitations.  Im thinking max out the size that you can comfortably in the space you have then if needed make a folding MFT to help a family member check out the chestnut folding mft design. They fold up pretty compact and look like a nice option or keep the MFT3 as an additional support but I dont know about the height difference between the table saw and MFT3 with the chestnut type you can make it whatever height you want. 

edit: just watched again looks like the cart is on castors so bigger MFT bench that is self supporting and the 8020 cart can simply roll under it.  Id slap a MFT type top on it to for an extra assembly table.  So when needed you can roll it out from under and do some glue ups or clamping on it. 
« Last Edit: November 28, 2020, 07:52 AM by afish »

Online afish

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2020, 08:37 AM »
I also just remembered after looking at my pics again. The anchor dogs have a small 45° shoulder on them.  I did have the holes I used to set the fence in chamfered to accept them fully However I sold the UJK chamfer tool with the Parf guide MKII when I sold it so the holes the anchor dogs are in are not chamfered. Since I cut down the bench I just tossed the 8020 in a random set of holes for the pics and deflection test and didnt think about it in my haste. In the photos and you can see about 30-40 thousands of a gap between the bottom of the angle bracket and the MDF top.  Im confident that if the holes where chamfered that .005" of movement I was getting would be decreased even more or eliminated completely.  As Im sure there is some rocking motion happening and not having the bracket flat to the bench is weakening the rigidity somewhat.

Offline MikeGE

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #35 on: November 27, 2020, 09:33 AM »
I’m surprised you also doubt the stability of the TSO guide rail ..
. I see so many people who are claiming they’re highly accurate and even a test to within .001” on a 5 cut square. Most don’t mention using it on the MFT but several have with positive feedback .. I’d assume it would function the same?  Have you seen many people with issues or complaints about the TSO guide rails?

I should have stated my comments differently.  My experience with the TSO Guide Rail has been great, but I have only used it away from my MFT-style table.  The first time I used it, with the FS 1400/2, was to cut the ends of the 19mm Valchromat board that became the top for my workbench.  After making the cuts, I measured the diagonal dimensions of the 1x2 meter top with my tape measure, and I couldn't see any difference between the two diagonals.   

I have no complaints at all when using the FS and TSO as a stand-alone guide, but I would never use it on a workbench if I had the means to fit a more secure fence that is aligned with my FS rail.

Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #36 on: November 27, 2020, 10:05 AM »
#1. The 3d brackets are nice in theory but since they have both unacceptable deflection issues and could be made easier to remove and install I think a totally new and better way to attach the fence is required.  I notice it looks like there is slots in the bottom of the fence.  Can a anchor dog be attached in the slot and then be placed in a 20mm hole? We need to not only locate the rail squarely each time but also accurately each time left-right so the scale isnt off and maintains repeatability.

Where can I find these anchor dogs?  Do they have any slop/play in them?  Do they sit above the table or flush with the table?

I see these which are flush and perhaps what you use ... Parf Anchor Dogs or something like this TSO Dogs.

#2. This makes a huge difference in cut stability.  You are going to lose some length of the fence so keep that in mind not sure if you use the full length now.  I dont have a band saw so I just used a aluminum blade in my miter saw and adjusted my depth stop to leave about 1/2" just under actually but you will want to look at the end of the incra fence to make sure you are leaving enough aluminum behind to maintain some structural integrity as Im not familiar with it. Just under 1/2" seems like the sweet spot as the other posted mentioned strong enough to maintain rigidity and thin enough to handle most cutting tasks and if need you can always pack up with some scrap if needed for cutting really thin sheets. Make a bunch of cuts in the extrusion so it looks like you are making a heat sink. Then bend the fins back and forth to break them off and clean up with a grinder and file.  If you noticed I used a wider piece of 8020 for this to help aid in maintaining a strong straight one piece design even after notching the 8020 You dont really need a high fence shorter and wider is better and I used the heavy wall for this reason as well.

I may have a solution where I don't need to chop up any fences but it depends how snug these anchor dogs or some other dogs fit.  I've 2 Super Parf Dogs, 2 UJK Guide Rail Clips, and the chamfer tool.  I set the SPD's vertically in the first/last holes, pull the guide rail snug to them, and tighten down the hinge in the rear, the alignment pin in the front, and then remove the SPD's ... I've not left the SFD's in and used the UJK clips because I'd lose crosscut capacity but maybe this would be more accurate than the stock MFT adjustable brackets?

Next, assuming the MFT holes are accurately positioned, the SPD's when fitted in a chamfered hole remain accurate, and there's some low profile dogs which sit just above the table and can be fitted snug and accurately, it seems I could drop several of them horizontally in the last row of holes to be the fence.  Because of the positioning of my guide rail, I could even fit one under the guide rail close to the splinter strip. For repeatable cuts, I would mount my Incra parallel guide T-Track to the top of these dogs using the threaded hole in the dogs and slot in the bottom of the T-Track.  The T-Track piece is up front so the T-Track would be recessed and wouldn't touch the panel but I could set end stops which would touch the edge of the panel.  If the dogs which sit above the table aren't snug but the anchor dogs which sit flush are, I could either cut the larger Incra fence or switch to the lower profile T-Track which is only slightly taller than the larger fence cut would be.

Here's pics of what I'm talking about.  FWIW - I've a picture of my modified Incra parallel guide for precise repeatability but if I mounted the track to the dogs I'd have to revert to the stock Seneca end stops which I've also shown.

323571-0 323573-1 323575-2 323577-3

#4. I couldnt tell from the video how much of an issue the festtol tack hinge is causing. I only know from hearing from others its not greatest and has some sloppiness problems.  Im pretty sure the right angle design one is better.  No matter which you choose you need to make sure that it is raising and lowering 90° to the table if it isnt then the fence will be out of square depending on height. I had guides on both sides of the bracket so when I did move it up and down there was no side to side movement and stayed square.

I don't think it's a huge issue as I pull it snug against the SPD's and then lock it down.


#5. Have you considered selling the MFT and possibly going to a bigger MFT type table?  Instead of fighting the current system. You should be able to build something that sits on top of your current 8020 cart which is real nice BTW.  but Im thinking bigger so you can have more flexibility on a fence system without losing any cross cut capacity. In addition to more rigidity and ability to cut full sheets on a bench instead of the floor :( It doesnt have to be a full 4x8 since you seem to have some space limitations.  Im thinking max out the size that you can comfortably in the space you have then if needed make some folding MFT like the chestnut design if you need to help a family member since they fold up pretty compact or keep the MFT3 as an additional support but I dont know about the height difference between the table saw and MFT3 with the chestnut type you can make it whatever height you want. 

edit: just watched again looks like the cart is on castors so bigger MFT bench that is self supporting and the 8020 cart can simply roll under it.  Id slap a MFT type top on it to for an extra assembly table.  So when needed you can roll it out from under and do some glue ups or clamping on it.

I'd not considered selling the MFT but that's not a bad idea!  It's on casters and while only 4040 extrusion it is fairly sturdy but I'm not opposed to something stronger.  FYI - when I break down full sheets, I either lay it across my table saw and outfeed table (5x5 BB) or in the garage (4x8 plywood).
« Last Edit: November 27, 2020, 10:16 AM by Bugsysiegals »

Online afish

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2020, 10:13 AM »
Yes the Parf anchor dogs you linked to are the ones.  No slop see my other posts using just 2 my 8020 rail is rock solid.  Only deflecting .001" when getting pushed on. Holes drilled with parf 20mm bit.  going out for walk so will look at rest when I return

Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #38 on: November 27, 2020, 10:18 AM »
Yes the Parf anchor dogs you linked to are the ones.  No slop see my other posts using just 2 my 8020 rail is rock solid.  Only deflecting .001" when getting pushed on. Holes drilled with parf 20mm bit.  going out for walk so will look at rest when I return

Thanks for the quick reply, I ordered 3 pairs of the anchor dogs which I hope will be plenty, should fit well with the chamfered edges, and should be useful regardless which direction I go with this...
« Last Edit: November 27, 2020, 11:32 AM by Bugsysiegals »

Online afish

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #39 on: November 27, 2020, 12:48 PM »
Yes they are handy. I also make adjustable stops with them and some scraps of BB similar to the TSO TDS ones but I just put a single 8mm grove and a cheap 8mm star knob from amazon. Works really good with the LR32 system.  As far as dogs go I dont use them for squaring or cutting unless I have a set of holes dedicated to the anchor dogs that I have verified with the 5 cut test.  Dogs rarely sit square in all directions even the supers which I also have.  So I dont trust them the taller the dog the worse it gets.  That's part of the issue too whenever you have any variances nothing is consistent, that's why I said you need to lock everything down as tight as possible first then concentrate on squaring. I know its all little amounts when looked at separately seem insignificant but once you start adding everything up it creates problems as you found out with your drawer bottoms.  Then on top of that by the time you are done cutting up the job and routed dados, drilled shelf pins the panels can be flipped in such a way that the sum of all those small errors are now doubled when its time to assemble.  I stand by my earlier suggestions lock everything down tightly no play on anything, extend the fence "solidly" under the track, and you should start to see much better and consistent results.

As far as the MFT I would seriously consider selling it and building a larger more permanent MFT outfeed table and putting another MFT type table on top of your sys cart and store it under the outfeed. so you can have a seperate table to assemble on and a separate cutting station. Im not sure about the hole size on a MFT either there seems to be some variances between hole sizes depending on what made the hole I can say that the 20mm UJK bit is a perfect match for the anchor dogs and so is the ujk chamfer tool. 

Online afish

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #40 on: November 27, 2020, 01:04 PM »
Im not 100% sure what you have going on with the dogs to try and eliminate cutting up any rails but if your trying to use the small dogs under the track for extra support where the fence doesn't reach. No no,  you want a nice straight and preferably as long as possible straight edge to reference the track squarely off of.  Some places sell a second piece that attaches to the main fence that is shorter to slip under the track.  Im not a fan of that either. Straight, long and one piece lessens any chance of introducing errors, wider is better so its more rigid with no chance of deflection since there's not a lot of material left after chopping it down. Im perhaps a little more OCD on it then I need to be but Id rather be safe than sorry and have no issues.   

Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #41 on: November 27, 2020, 01:32 PM »
Much appreciated @afish!!  I considered buying the UJK drilling jig but seen at least one person who had the 3mm holes oblong after drilling their table and so I figure it might be better to try and get my buddy with a CNC to just cut a 4x8 sheet for me in hopes those holes would be snug and best chance of being aligned. 

Offline MikeGE

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #42 on: November 27, 2020, 02:03 PM »
Much appreciated @afish!!  I considered buying the UJK drilling jig but seen at least one person who had the 3mm holes oblong after drilling their table and so I figure it might be better to try and get my buddy with a CNC to just cut a 4x8 sheet for me in hopes those holes would be snug and best chance of being aligned.

My only use of the UJK Parf MK2 kit, so far, was to make the 200 holes in my workbench top.  The 200th hole was just as perfect as the 1st.




Online afish

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #43 on: November 27, 2020, 02:05 PM »
I dont think I would by the system again either (sorry peter).  For me the MFT is great system for fixturing and clamping but not for precise, repeatable cutting some might disagree but there is to much room for error depending on the person doing the drilling.  Its a very boring and monotonous job drilling an entire 4x8 I tend to start rushing and holes get drilled slightly off or out of plumb apparently etc.  Not horribly so but it can be enough to mess you up later.  The bit itself probably wouldn't hurt to have so you can  add holes as needed.  If no cnc is available I would just lay out the 96mm grid by hand center punch the center for a starting point and drill the holes free hand and use them for clamping only.  Then just drill a few holes for the anchor dogs on the fence a little more carefully. These also dont need to be super critical (but they do need to fit the dog snugly) if you need to tighten up the dog hole spray some lacquer in the hole and the mdf will swell and harden slightly making a tighter and more durable dog hole.  Since the angle brackets can slide anywhere along the 8020 and the track gets squared off of the 8020 those holes can be placed just about anywhere and dont have to use the 96mm grid unless you want. Once the 8020 is in its location square the track off of that. Any fine tuning can be done with shims between one of the brackets as needed to really dial it in.  I was only off by the thickness of one piece of that clear packing tape that goes on a packing gun. It shouldn't take much to really dial it in if you have a good square to start with. 
« Last Edit: November 28, 2020, 08:00 AM by afish »

Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #44 on: November 27, 2020, 02:31 PM »
Yes they are handy. I also make adjustable stops with them and some scraps of BB similar to the TSO TDS ones but I just put a single 8mm grove and a cheap 8mm star knob from amazon. Works really good with the LR32 system.  As far as dogs go I dont use them for squaring or cutting unless I have a set of holes dedicated to the anchor dogs that I have verified with the 5 cut test.  Dogs rarely sit square in all directions even the supers which I also have.  So I dont trust them the taller the dog the worse it gets.  That's part of the issue too whenever you have any variances nothing is consistent, that's why I said you need to lock everything down as tight as possible first then concentrate on squaring. I know its all little amounts when looked at separately seem insignificant but once you start adding everything up it creates problems as you found out with your drawer bottoms.  Then on top of that by the time you are done cutting up the job and routed dados, drilled shelf pins the panels can be flipped in such a way that the sum of all those small errors are now doubled when its time to assemble.  I stand by my earlier suggestions lock everything down tightly no play on anything, extend the fence "solidly" under the track, and you should start to see much better and consistent results.

As far as the MFT I would seriously consider selling it and building a larger more permanent MFT outfeed table and putting another MFT type table on top of your sys cart and store it under the outfeed. so you can have a seperate table to assemble on and a separate cutting station. Im not sure about the hole size on a MFT either there seems to be some variances between hole sizes depending on what made the hole I can say that the 20mm UJK bit is a perfect match for the anchor dogs and so is the ujk chamfer tool.

About replacing the MFT, the top of the MFT is 188mm above the top of the sys cart and is 20mm below the top of the table saw.  If I remove the MFT and build a stationary 8020 outfeed table using 4080 profile for strength, I'm left with 127mm (1mm drop from table to outfeed so panels don't catch) to build a portable MFT style assembly table.  This would probably be 2x 4040 profile with 28mm posts between them and 19mm MDF on top?  I'm not sure how it would compare to the MFT/3 but could probably be portable in that I could carry it to the garage and put it on saw horses if I needed?

Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #45 on: November 27, 2020, 02:37 PM »
Im not 100% sure what you have going on with the dogs to try and eliminate cutting up any rails but if your trying to use the small dogs under the track for extra support where the fence doesn't reach. No no,  you want a nice straight and preferably as long as possible straight edge to reference the track squarely off of.  Some places sell a second piece that attaches to the main fence that is shorter to slip under the track.  Im not a fan of that either. Straight, long and one piece lessens any chance of introducing errors, wider is better so its more rigid with no chance of deflection since there's not a lot of material left after chopping it down. Im perhaps a little more OCD on it then I need to be but Id rather be safe than sorry and have no issues.

I was saying to use the dogs as the fence and if they barely protrude above the table they could stretch the entire table including underneath the guide rail.  I said this since they seem to fit really snug and if they're all aligned then why not use them as a fence.  In this way the fence doesn't need to be cut since the panels never touch the fence.  Rather, the fence is mounted on top of the dogs and since the T-Track slot on the fence is up front and the threaded hole of the dog is in the middle the fence would simply sit just a bit forward than the middle of the dog but not touching any panels ... only the end stop(s) would touch.  Since the dogs are independent of each other this assumes the holes are perfectly aligned and there's no slop in the dogs which is what I assumed based on your advising how stiff your fence was ... but that's with anchor dogs which sit in the chamfered hole ... I was thinking if they made a short dog with chamfer ring on it and only slightly protruding above the surface...

Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #46 on: November 27, 2020, 02:38 PM »
My only use of the UJK Parf MK2 kit, so far, was to make the 200 holes in my workbench top.  The 200th hole was just as perfect as the 1st.


I guess it just depends how careful you are while drilling the 3mm holes through the SS template.  Maybe this guy had to big of a bit, couldn't hold steady, or maybe it's inevitable to wear out after so many times drilling through it?

Online afish

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #47 on: November 27, 2020, 03:06 PM »
Your post about replacing the MFT confused me a bit.  What I was thinking is a stationary workbench with a MFT style MDF top.  Whatever size you can fit behind your saw. 4x8, 3x7 just kind of depends on how much space you have.  looks like you have a basement shop so you probably dont want to carry full sheets into the basement unless its a walkout. Otherwise I would want something big enough to break down a full sheet.  I would suggest getting a sheet of russian birch and make a bench from that first and live with it for a bit and see how you like it before investing in the 8020 and selling the MFT.  This way if you hate it your only out a small investment and can go back to what you have now.  All I did was ripped up a 4x8 sheet into 4" strips and built the entire thing from those. I doubled up the stringers in the 8 ft length for extra strength and to any prevent sagging.  Pocket screwed some spreaders in between the stringers and made the legs out of 2 pieces and screwed them in the corners of the stringer/spreader joint.  I brought the legs in about 14-16 inches from the ends for some shop cabinets on each end.  This left me about 56" in between the legs for a lower shelf but you will need to delete the shelf for the sys cart to slide under and may need to adjust the legs out to accommodate the cart. Yes its a little more work to build it twice but You might find that the birch version is fine.  Until you add the cabinets on the end it wont be rock solid but once I added the cabinets it took out any racking.  You could just add some diagonal bracing if you dont want to build any cabinets.

Online afish

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #48 on: November 27, 2020, 03:41 PM »
 I did a real quick sketch showing what I was talking about.  You probably dont even need the legs this way but I was toying with the idea of being able to remove the cabinets for mobile use.  drawn as 47x97 but you might want to shrink it down.  I didnt get crazy drawing shelf holes etc. just down and dirty overall basic idea.  The cab's I built were .5" RB the bench was .75"  I packed out the face of the front 2 legs so they were flush and drilled 20mm holes vertically to accept dogs for when I used to iron on edge banding :( you can add t track to the front rail too if you like.  I tend to evolve quickly with different configurations so I try not to get to carried away on shop furniture/fixtures etc.  no toe kick, just some scraps of .5" RB for feet. No doors but doors are nice for keeping the dust out.  One side I had pull outs for dewalt tough system boxes and the other was just adjustable shelving.   
« Last Edit: November 27, 2020, 03:46 PM by afish »

Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #49 on: November 27, 2020, 06:13 PM »
Your post about replacing the MFT confused me a bit.  What I was thinking is a stationary workbench with a MFT style MDF top.  Whatever size you can fit behind your saw. 4x8, 3x7 just kind of depends on how much space you have.  looks like you have a basement shop so you probably dont want to carry full sheets into the basement unless its a walkout. Otherwise I would want something big enough to break down a full sheet.  I would suggest getting a sheet of russian birch and make a bench from that first and live with it for a bit and see how you like it before investing in the 8020 and selling the MFT.  This way if you hate it your only out a small investment and can go back to what you have now.  All I did was ripped up a 4x8 sheet into 4" strips and built the entire thing from those. I doubled up the stringers in the 8 ft length for extra strength and to any prevent sagging.  Pocket screwed some spreaders in between the stringers and made the legs out of 2 pieces and screwed them in the corners of the stringer/spreader joint.  I brought the legs in about 14-16 inches from the ends for some shop cabinets on each end.  This left me about 56" in between the legs for a lower shelf but you will need to delete the shelf for the sys cart to slide under and may need to adjust the legs out to accommodate the cart. Yes its a little more work to build it twice but You might find that the birch version is fine.  Until you add the cabinets on the end it wont be rock solid but once I added the cabinets it took out any racking.  You could just add some diagonal bracing if you dont want to build any cabinets.

Yes, you said to build a stationary workbench, and slide the sys cart underneath, with some MFT type table on top of it.  I was telling the dimensions I could put on top of the sys cart which would still fit underneath the stationary workbench, assuming it was built with 4080 Aluminum extrusion and 3/4" MDF top.  I carried 10x 4'x'8'x3/4' Maple plywood, 6x 5'x5'x5/8" BB, and 6x 5'x5'x3/8" BB down here and still have a few sheets left.  It was a real pain and I'm not sure I want to ever do that again but am not sure how well they'll hold up on a plywood cart in the garage which isn't air conditioned or heated?  I hope to someday have a heated garage which I can make my shop in which will be much more convenient!

Online afish

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #50 on: November 27, 2020, 06:16 PM »
Why are you building another structure on top of the current cart?  Why not just pull off MFT and put MDF top over the exiting frame?

Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #51 on: November 27, 2020, 07:21 PM »
It sounded like you said to build a smaller MFT table on top of the mobile sys cart.  If you were simply saying to put MDF on top then it already has that and just needs dog holes.

Online afish

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #52 on: November 27, 2020, 07:28 PM »
Sorry, yes that's what I meant. Just something to pull out and use for glue ups,  assembly etc. so your not disrupting the cutting station.

Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #53 on: November 27, 2020, 07:52 PM »
Ok, seems I could build a decent top but how will I attach the guide rail in the front/rear in a way that’s adjustable yet stronger, consistent, and 90 degrees to the fence holes?

Online afish

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #54 on: November 27, 2020, 08:02 PM »
Im not sure how the bracket on the MFT attaches to the MFT. However,  the RAD one works with t track or the bracket can probably just be screwed to the side of the table.  I built my own out of .5 R.B. It wasnt pretty but worked good.  Here is a link to the RAD looks like they are changing their name or something this has good feedback from what I have seen. track hinge

Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #55 on: November 27, 2020, 08:04 PM »
Thanks!!

Offline 08G8V8

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #56 on: November 30, 2020, 06:55 PM »
Bugsy, is this the profile of the Incra track you are using?  I assume it is from what I see on their website. 

I like the idea of using a 8020 profile, but want to have a built in scale. This profile looks like it would be pretty easy to cut/modify to have support under the rail. 

If this is the profile you are using, how tall is the portion marked on the attachment if the center vertical flanges were cut away for the under the rail area?




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Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #57 on: November 30, 2020, 07:54 PM »
Yes, that's the same fence.  It's just short of 9mm from the bottom to the lowest point of the t-slot and 10.5mm to the top of that rib you highlighted.

While I never force material against the fence, I've ordered the anchor dogs which should help with consistency and ease of use removing and re-installing the Incra fence.  If needed, I've 4040 profile I can use, but see no reason why this Incra fence wouldn't be stable enough unless I hire a gorilla to start cutting my panels.  [laughing]

I'm not sure how I'll get the fence aligned and anchor dogs mounted tightly yet but I'm sure I'll figure it out ... if there's anything in particular you'd like to see, let me know, but I'm curious, I thought you liked the TSO guide rail and parallel guides on your MFT?

Offline 08G8V8

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #58 on: November 30, 2020, 08:11 PM »
Yeah, it’s been working good. I’ve got some drawers to build for a cart I recently built so I’ll get some more use with the current setup. I am just considering the idea of using the Incra fence.


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Offline Bugsysiegals

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Re: MFT/3 Fence and Square ... TSO GRS-16 PE?
« Reply #59 on: December 03, 2020, 06:11 PM »
I just got my anchor dogs and can confirm they will not work with this Incra fence.  The anchor dogs are 8mm and the bottom slot will only fit 6mm.

I've Seneca parallel guides which use a thin Incra T-Track which can fit an 8mm bolt shaft but the max width is 11.80mm which is to small for a M8 bolt head or socket head cap screw head.  I see they make 8mm male to 6mm female thread reducers so maybe with a little loctite this would allow the thin Incra rail to work. Assuming it’s sturdy enough with 3-4 dogs I’d think it would work great as it doesn’t need to be ground down to fit under the fence, is light weight, and can have flag stops setup with a rule.  I may just buy some to test it out ...
« Last Edit: December 03, 2020, 06:51 PM by Bugsysiegals »