Author Topic: MFT Hole Jigs  (Read 21977 times)

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Offline Cheese

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #120 on: October 21, 2018, 05:59 PM »
...wondering if collets are same size as of1400...I suspect they are so I'll have to buy the festool guide bushing for the 1010 as well...these holes are costing me a lot of money....lol

Sorry... [sad]

The same collets are used in the 700 & 1010, while the 1400 & 2200 use the same collets.

You got the “costing me a lot of money” thing right.  [big grin]

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Offline gnlman

  • Posts: 204
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #121 on: October 21, 2018, 06:22 PM »
Nope I'm sorry....I should have been clearer. I meant physical size like the OD of the collet not what size bits they take...TTG had indicated in one of his posts that the 30mm Trend bushing he purchased was stopping his 0f1400 collet from plunging thru 19mm top unless he only chucked the festool 20mm bit in a bout a quarter inch....I was being hopeful that the OD of the 8mm collet on the 1010 might be a smaller OD...but thinking they are probably the same OD for all the sizes...I'll have to wait til the 1010 arrives or someone chimes in.lol
Greg

Offline Sometimewoodworker

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #122 on: October 21, 2018, 06:34 PM »
I also just discovered that the ujk system is coming out with an upgraded version for dog holes called the Mark 2.
Greg

Humm,  that be the the one I mentioned in my post 4 days ago? ;)

Only issue now is Festool 20mm bit makes the holes just a tad looser than I would like, which others have mentioned before. 

A bit that is slightly large is quite easy to fix with extremely cautious use of diamond stones, having said that my Festool 20mm bit is precise. So either the later bits are larger or you may be using a different bit to the one I do. I can check the part number later.

There is the chance that the items you are using in the holes are slightly undersized
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 06:41 PM by Sometimewoodworker »
Jerome
TS55, OF1400, Elu MOF96, Rotex150, DTS400, ETS150/3 Domino, MFK700, CXS, HL 850, Trend T11, Makita LS1212, Original Mini CV06 Cyclone, Workshop supplies drum sander, & WoodRat. Don't have don't want list: MFT
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nui-jerome/

Offline Cheese

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #123 on: October 21, 2018, 07:33 PM »
Here’s a shot of the 8mm collet for the 1400 & 1010.

Offline gnlman

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #124 on: October 22, 2018, 12:25 AM »
Thanks Cheese. That is good news for me and my dominofix/trend bushing combo I was hoping would work....lol
Greg

Offline TSO_Products

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #125 on: October 23, 2018, 09:02 PM »
For those of you using the Parf Guide System, the new Parf Dust Port is a truly useful, time saving and relatively inexpensive accessory.
In stock now at tsoproducts.com

enjoy!
Hans

PS: Mark 2 Parf Guide System shipment on order for TSO stock

Offline Sometimewoodworker

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #126 on: October 23, 2018, 10:38 PM »
PS scored a slightly used metric of1010 online this morning being shipped tomorrow...wondering if collets are same size as of1400...I suspect they are so I'll have to buy the festool guide bushing for the 1010 as well...these holes are costing me a lot of money....lol

But you have a really good reason to buy new (to you) toys.

I've just picked up my DominoFix jig from customs. The OF1400 bushing is an exact fit in the jig, I don't have time to test the hole drilling yet as SWMBO just bought a new/used car and I have to fly down to Bangkok to pick it up and drive the 600km back.
Jerome
TS55, OF1400, Elu MOF96, Rotex150, DTS400, ETS150/3 Domino, MFK700, CXS, HL 850, Trend T11, Makita LS1212, Original Mini CV06 Cyclone, Workshop supplies drum sander, & WoodRat. Don't have don't want list: MFT
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nui-jerome/

Offline dlu

  • Posts: 176
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #127 on: October 23, 2018, 11:03 PM »
PS scored a slightly used metric of1010 online this morning being shipped tomorrow...wondering if collets are same size as of1400...I suspect they are so I'll have to buy the festool guide bushing for the 1010 as well...these holes are costing me a lot of money....lol

They are not. The OF1010 collets are quite a bit smaller than the OF1400. That gives you a reason to buy the 2200 and the 700...

Offline gnlman

  • Posts: 204
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #128 on: October 24, 2018, 12:19 AM »
lol already have the 700 and a older PC 7518 keeps the of2200 away....mind you it's been in the router table for years..lol
hoping the 1010 and bushing arrive tomorrow.

Offline dlu

  • Posts: 176
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #129 on: October 24, 2018, 12:31 PM »
lol already have the 700 and a older PC 7518 keeps the of2200 away....mind you it's been in the router table for years..lol
hoping the 1010 and bushing arrive tomorrow.

The 700 collets will fit the 1010 - and vice versa - you have spares. Love my 7518.

Offline ctvader

  • Posts: 61
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #130 on: November 03, 2018, 09:40 AM »
Hi all - I used the UJK Parf Guide to drill my holes this morning.  Setup tp finish was ~60mins for a 3x5 top made of 1/2” plywood. 

I ordered from Axminster on Wednesday morning and rec’d it yesterday (I’m in CT).  The parf guide and two UJK 50MM super dogs (I think that’s the name) was $201, including shipping. 

The tool is flawless and super simple to use.  If you go this route, I would use a 1/4” chuck in the drill.  I used a Milwaukee drill/driver with a dewalt chuck - without this, the drill would get old in a hurry.  I used a wexley digital protractor, which measured dead on @ 90 degrees.  I used the Anderson plywood square against the rail and their was zero play.  I’ll try the 5 cut test tomorrow.

The videos by Dave Stanton, Peter and Matt Estlea () do a great job of explaining what to do. 

I tried other methods, which led to frustration and inaccurate hole pattern. 

Well worth the money.  I plan on making another top, made of MDF, this weekend.  Will update if needed.   

Offline Claimdude

  • Posts: 366
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #131 on: November 03, 2018, 09:50 AM »
ctvader,

Thanks for the info. I am trying to picture what you are referring to regarding the 1/4" chuck and drill quoted below. Would you mind clarifying for me? Also, did you get the MK II or the original jig?

" I would use a 1/4” chuck in the drill.  I used a Milwaukee drill/driver with a dewalt chuck - without this, the drill would get old in a hurry. "

Thanks
Jack

Offline ctvader

  • Posts: 61
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #132 on: November 03, 2018, 10:41 AM »
Jack,

The dewalt chuck is the Dewalt Rapid Load Holder (https://hardwareonlinestore.com/images/stories/virtuemart/product/304209.jpg), which seems similar to the Centrotec Chuck for Festool drills.  The UJK Guide i used was the original- I can’t see a reason, for my needs, to need the MKii. 

The Milwaukee drill was 18v and was just the right amount of power.

Jeff
« Last Edit: November 03, 2018, 12:58 PM by ctvader »

Offline gnlman

  • Posts: 204
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #133 on: November 03, 2018, 05:03 PM »
SUCCESS!!! Well I managed to get all the items I needed to give the dominofix mft jig a try....had to buy a of1010, trend guide bushing, festool mandrel and a leigh guide bushing jig so I could center the festool 20mm bit in the guide bushing....whew...as others have said holes are slightly larger with the festool bit, but qwas dogs seem to sit in those holes quite nicely...I did find the holes I drilled where ever so much larger than the dogs that came with the jig...I just kept forward pressure on the jig as I drilled the north/south holes, and didn't have to do a thing for the east/west holes....I don't think I would have had room to use the enclosed tape to pick up the slack. I'll try and post pictures, but never have much luck doing that here......
Thanks for all the help, especially TTG!!!
Greg

Well I've been trying for almost an hour to post pics..resized them..still no go...yeeesh...keep getting a message in preview about fakepath....I have managed to post pics before.....
Seems I got one...lol...didn't show in preview just noticed it when I went to edit...I'll keep trying...and yes I did read the tutorials..lol


287158-0


287160-1


287160-2
« Last Edit: November 03, 2018, 05:22 PM by gnlman »

Offline Dominofix

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #134 on: November 04, 2018, 08:06 AM »
Awesome to see it worked out!

SUCCESS!!! Well I managed to get all the items I needed to give the dominofix mft jig a try....had to buy a of1010, trend guide bushing, festool mandrel and a leigh guide bushing jig so I could center the festool 20mm bit in the guide bushing....whew...as others have said holes are slightly larger with the festool bit, but qwas dogs seem to sit in those holes quite nicely...I did find the holes I drilled where ever so much larger than the dogs that came with the jig...I just kept forward pressure on the jig as I drilled the north/south holes, and didn't have to do a thing for the east/west holes....I don't think I would have had room to use the enclosed tape to pick up the slack. I'll try and post pictures, but never have much luck doing that here......
Thanks for all the help, especially TTG!!!
Greg

Well I've been trying for almost an hour to post pics..resized them..still no go...yeeesh...keep getting a message in preview about fakepath....I have managed to post pics before.....
Seems I got one...lol...didn't show in preview just noticed it when I went to edit...I'll keep trying...and yes I did read the tutorials..lol


(Attachment Link)


(Attachment Link)


(Attachment Link)

Offline tallgrass

  • Posts: 877
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #135 on: November 04, 2018, 07:13 PM »
glad you got it all worked out. For me it was strait forward. 1400, copy ring and the festool 20mm. I can see that dealing with the tolerance stack can be a problem with all the different manufactures that can be involved.

Offline ben_r_

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #136 on: August 07, 2019, 01:20 AM »
Great thread and glad I ran across it! I have been going back and forth on the best route to go to make MFT style tops. I have the LR32 system and a brand new MFT top that could be used as a template already but have been kicking around the Parf Guide Mark II system and the Woodpeckers Hole-Boring Jig because at first it seemed like going either of those routes might be better. But now Im feeling a little more confused!
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline Cheese

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #137 on: August 07, 2019, 01:33 AM »
I have the LR32 system and a brand new MFT top that could be used as a template already but have been kicking around the Parf Guide Mark II system and the Woodpeckers Hole-Boring Jig because at first it seemed like going either of those routes might be better. But now Im feeling a little more confused!

Ben, my suggestion is to forget the Woodpeckers option and go with the LR 32 as you already have everything you need.

The ONLY way the Woodpeckers option works well is if you modify the supplied bushing so that you can use a standard Festool 20 mm router bit.

Otherwise you’ll be sorry with the results. I’ve already shared my results with Woodpeckers and they acknowledged that their method was meant for clamping purposes only. It was not meant for precision alignment.........well they got that aspect right. 

Offline Dusty.Tools

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #138 on: August 07, 2019, 02:13 AM »
Thanks @Cheese that makes a ton of sense! I couldn't figure out how a smaller jig like that would stay true over a big top!
@dusty.tools

Offline Jiggy Joiner

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #139 on: August 07, 2019, 02:23 AM »
I use the PGS Mk 2 and have always had superb results. I’ve made lots of tops and cutting stations, and a good few for friends or colleagues. So it’s worked out well financially too.

Recently, a company we sometimes work with, got a lovely CNC machine, and they knocked up a couple of MFT tops for us. So we did cut tests with those, and tops made with the PGS Mk 2, and there was no noticeable difference in squareness, so personally I’d have no problem using or trusting either of the tops.

Sure, a PGS made top is much more time consuming but, that’s not a problem for me personally, as I choose when and where to make one.
It’s usually when we have a tough job on that is very physically demanding, lot’s of lifting and carrying (I’m not 21 anymore) So, I then state that I need to sort something out, and proceed to making a new top with the PGS. It’s then a very welcomed task.  [big grin] [wink]

Offline Sometimewoodworker

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #140 on: August 07, 2019, 06:10 AM »
I have the LR32 system and a brand new MFT top that could be used as a template already but have been kicking around the Parf Guide Mark II system and the Woodpeckers Hole-Boring Jig because at first it seemed like going either of those routes might be better. But now Im feeling a little more confused!

Ben, my suggestion is to forget the Woodpeckers option and go with the LR 32 as you already have everything you need.

I disagree with trying to use the LR 32 system by itself. There are far better options around now.

When I made my template using the LR 32 there was nothing else available it is all too easy to get your alignment off, I did on a couple of rows, then the benefits of the template are gone. This was in 2009 http://festoolownersgroup.com/member-projects/20mm-hole-on-a-96mm-grid-system-(mft-top-style)/msg78004/#msg78004

Far better options are; CNC, Parfguide and possibly (I haven't used mine yet) the DominoFix.

There is a discussion at http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-jigs-tool-enhancements/dominofix-in-canada/msg559291/#msg559291

My conclusion is that assuming the DominoFix works as advertised it's the best for making a full hole top.

If you don't need the complete set of holes the Parfguide is far more versatile than anything else.

The LR 32 can make the grid but it's very much more difficult to get it mm perfect.

You can use an MFT top as a template but you are almost certainly going to create wear damage to it very quickly.
Jerome
TS55, OF1400, Elu MOF96, Rotex150, DTS400, ETS150/3 Domino, MFK700, CXS, HL 850, Trend T11, Makita LS1212, Original Mini CV06 Cyclone, Workshop supplies drum sander, & WoodRat. Don't have don't want list: MFT
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nui-jerome/

Offline Euclid

  • Posts: 185
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #141 on: August 07, 2019, 07:50 AM »
It’s usually when we have a tough job on that is very physically demanding, lot’s of lifting and carrying (I’m not 21 anymore) So, I then state that I need to sort something out, and proceed to making a new top with the PGS. It’s then a very welcomed task.  [big grin] [wink]

Love it! What's the expression? - work smarter, not harder!

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 812
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #142 on: August 08, 2019, 02:54 AM »
It’s usually when we have a tough job on that is very physically demanding, lot’s of lifting and carrying (I’m not 21 anymore) So, I then state that I need to sort something out, and proceed to making a new top with the PGS. It’s then a very welcomed task.  [big grin] [wink]

Love it! What's the expression? - work smarter, not harder!

Haha! Yes, well I have my little perks.  [wink]

Offline threesixright

  • Posts: 400
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #143 on: August 08, 2019, 03:02 PM »
The LR 32 can make the grid but it's very much more difficult to get it mm perfect.
Why is that? the holes are perfectly space on the rails itself, no?

You do need to have a square sheet, but thats for all jigs.

Maybe I'm overlooking something [embarassed]?

Offline Bob D.

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #144 on: August 08, 2019, 10:06 PM »
Of all the options the Parf Guide System is the most accurate short of a CNC I think.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline Sometimewoodworker

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #145 on: August 09, 2019, 09:10 AM »
The LR 32 can make the grid but it's very much more difficult to get it mm perfect.
Why is that? the holes are perfectly space on the rails itself, no?

You do need to have a square sheet, but thats for all jigs.

Maybe I'm overlooking something [embarassed]?

The spacing along the rail is of course perfect.

The problem is getting each row perfectly aligned with the other rows, since there is no built in triangulation and no way to simply check that the rows are absolutely correct.

This means that you have rows of perfectly spaced holes that can be very slightly offset or slightly out of parallel to each other. I came up with a way to ensure parallel but did not find anyway to guarantee that hey were not offset.

The PGS has triangulation built into it.
The DominoFix has the template CNCed so can't have that problem.

The great advantages of the PGS is that once sufficient 3mm holes have been drilled you can at any time bore out any of the 20mm holes you need also you can drill an isometric top permitting angles not possible on the other systems

Jerome
TS55, OF1400, Elu MOF96, Rotex150, DTS400, ETS150/3 Domino, MFK700, CXS, HL 850, Trend T11, Makita LS1212, Original Mini CV06 Cyclone, Workshop supplies drum sander, & WoodRat. Don't have don't want list: MFT
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nui-jerome/

Offline Cheese

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #146 on: August 09, 2019, 11:19 PM »
Thanks @Cheese that makes a ton of sense! I couldn't figure out how a smaller jig like that would stay true over a big top!

@Dusty.Tools actually the Woodpeckers jig is incredibly accurate for hole placement when used with a little common sense and care.

Here's a photo of the LH edge of the 1st hole and a photo of the LH edge of the 11th hole. A total distance of 1055.5 mm versus the theoretical perfect value of 1056 mm. 





So a .5 mm deviation over 42 inches... that's pretty impressive.

The real issue when using the current Woodpeckers solution are the diameter aberrations when using their jig. They use a 1/2" diameter router bit to make a 3/4" or 20 mm diameter hole. This means the bit is plunged through the material but a lot of lateral force is needed to completely clean up the hole diameter without leaving diameter artifacts behind. This is what a typical hole looks like before it is cleaned up for the 2nd, 3rd or 4th time. This is in Baltic birch but the situation is similar in MDF.



This means it's a very laborious process to produce truly round holes because sometimes the holes have to be tweaked 3-4 times before you move the jig.

A further annoying issue is that the OF 1400 has a router plate bushing that is not directly fastened to the router base, rather it's held in place with a series of spring clips. The spring clips allow router plate bushing movement in both the X and Y axis, to the tune of .004"-.008"...that's not good.

The only method that will eliminate these issues is to eliminate the lateral forces placed on the router. Thus, I machined a larger bushing that centered the 1400 in the Woodpeckers jig and I then used a Festool 20 mm router bit to machine the holes. A straight plunging action with no lateral pressure that produced a perfectly round 20 mm hole. 


Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 812
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #147 on: August 10, 2019, 04:08 AM »
That’s very impressive Cheese  [thumbs up]
The point you made about the plunge action is also often overlooked, the same as a poor drilling technique used on a PGS.

Slight side to side wobble on a few cuts, can make a fair bit of difference overall, as you well know.
Another reason why CNC is so tight.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6594
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #148 on: August 10, 2019, 08:56 AM »
That’s very impressive Cheese  [thumbs up]
The point you made about the plunge action is also often overlooked, the same as a poor drilling technique used on a PGS.

Slight side to side wobble on a few cuts, can make a fair bit of difference overall, as you well know.
Another reason why CNC is so tight.

Thanks Jiggy @Jiggy Joiner , like your new avatar...it's kind of retro.  [big grin]

Just to prove the lateral force issues with the 1400 are real, here are some photos.

Measuring the play perpendicular to the axis of the mounting tabs:
Indicator zeroed out on the bushing



The bushing is now being pushed in a downwards direction, .008" of movement.



Measuring the play along the axis of the mounting tabs:
Indicator zeroed out



The bushing is again being pushed in a downwards direction, .003" of movement.



The 1400 was never designed to make perfectly round holes in the way that Woodpeckers is using it. The 1010 would work because the router bushing plate is screwed to the base, however, it does not accept 1/2" diameter bits.

Lastly, here's a photo of the aluminum bushing I made for the 1400. It's a snug fit in the Woodpeckers jig and on the Woodpeckers guide bushing. Simple plunges are then made using the Festool 20 mm (491072) router bit.  [big grin]




Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4301
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #149 on: August 10, 2019, 09:24 AM »
Don’t know which bushing is required by the Woodpecker jig but the Festool 20mm bit does work in the Festool OF 1100, and 1000, and 900 too.

Problem for me was that the holes made by the Festool bit were a little bigger than 20mm and most all dogs are under 20mm, since the holes in MFTs are too.