Author Topic: Is this safe?  (Read 4915 times)

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Offline Packard

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Is this safe?
« on: November 23, 2021, 12:36 PM »
I found this image on the Woodpeckers site.  Can this be a safe way to use a router?  Can this allow the router to trap the material and run away?


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Offline usernumber1

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Re: Is this safe?
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2021, 12:44 PM »
lol. i don't like anything about that setup. im sure its fine

Offline Alex

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Re: Is this safe?
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2021, 12:48 PM »
Occasionally I have done cuts like this, I never had a problem.

Offline guybo

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Re: Is this safe?
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2021, 12:50 PM »
« Last Edit: November 23, 2021, 01:13 PM by guybo »

Online ChuckS

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Re: Is this safe?
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2021, 01:44 PM »
The operation in that manner (assuming the bit in the WP photo was a straight one) was similar to setting the fence away from the bit on a router table, and then feeding the work in between the bit and the fence.

Would I do that? Of course not, even if making light cuts. When I do rabbets, I either use a rabbeting bit, or cut the rabbets before assembly with a straight bit on the router table.

Offline JD2720

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Re: Is this safe?
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2021, 03:15 PM »
I am sure I have done it at some point early on before there were good rabbeting bits with ball bearing pilots. I do not see any reason to do it now.

Offline Packard

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Re: Is this safe?
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2021, 03:38 PM »
It seems like using a fence and a miter gage on the table saw at the same time. If it goes off the edge guide a bit while pushing forward it looks to me like it would jam and make the router scoot across the room. 

I would have used a guided bit from the inside and cleaned up the corners with a chisel.

Online Cheese

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Re: Is this safe?
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2021, 10:04 PM »
If it goes off the edge guide a bit while pushing forward it looks to me like it would jam and make the router scoot across the room. 

I wouldn't be that bold as to make that statement...that's what those massive biceps are for.   [smile]
Besides, it's all about mechanical advantage/leverage and a small 1/2" diameter router bit will not be capable of propelling a 9# router across the room. It could, if not controlled leave a nasty divot in the wood, and that would be unfortunate but it has been done this way in a pinch many times before

Just remember, if you're uncomfortable with the routing method that you're using, then maybe it's time to rethink the methodology you're using.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2021, 10:17 PM by Cheese »

Offline Svar

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Re: Is this safe?
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2021, 11:00 PM »
Generally a bad idea. I've done similar thing few times, but in a situation when I had little choice and I took multiple precautions to control the workpiece and tool. The first time I attempted this the piece got trapped and launched across the room like a spear.

Offline notenoughcash

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Re: Is this safe?
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2021, 03:49 AM »
doesnt look very safe, and as others pointed out, i would have used a bearing bit.
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Offline JonnyBBravo

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Re: Is this safe?
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2021, 07:18 PM »
I’ve used this router at a guys shop as what it’s what he had. I’ve never had it run away on me. It’s not the most stable edge guide but I wouldn’t hold the guide like that. I would make a firm grasp to the side. So if anything went wrong my fingers do find a way to center of the the bit by the way this person is holding it in the picture. Mainly used this to cut on MDF. All I’ll say is the edge guide not pressed firm against the edge you will have slight drift and also tilt if it’s not supported well. It’s not the best edge guide for it but those are my experiences using it.

Offline Crazyraceguy

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Re: Is this safe?
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2021, 09:20 AM »
There are several issues here as most have pointed out. The trapped cut though, is the least of them as I see it. A trapped cut like that on a solidly held, single piece, that is made in the "conventional cut" direction and a light cut, would be somewhat acceptable. Not ideal, there are better ways, but it would work.
The problems the I really see here are far more severe.
First is the inside cut of an enclosed space. The is no way to start this cut "off the work" when it is internal like that, other than plunging straight down, not good.

Second is the closed space itself. What do they think is going to happen when you get to the corners?

Third is the fence itself. Those have a opening that is intended to straddle the bit, much like a router table. They work just fine when doing that, but if you have any more off-set than that, you need to attach a single piece to span that gap. The router will "fall into" that gap when it gets to the end. At minimum this spoils the cut, and worse may injure the user and or tool too.
These fences, from all brands, have holes in them intended for screws to hold on and auxiliary face to solve this issue.
The nicer brands (Festool) have sliding parts to accomplish this same goal.

Either way, this is lousy advertising. Someone should have seen that this was bad and definitely not the intended use of this edge guide. Normally they are hyper-vigilant about safety things and warnings that pretty much anyone already knows, or wouldn't do anyway. They all give warnings that people read and say "well that's silly" or "who would do that?"
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Offline Kraftt

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Re: Is this safe?
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2021, 10:20 AM »
I'm sure if you contact Woodpeckers they will point out, with what fingers they have left, that all the safety warnings are present in the image:

1) Operator only has two fingers 

2) the extreme cut chatter on the part of the oak frame (bottom right of inside of 'L' in photo).

Offline Bob D.

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Re: Is this safe?
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2021, 10:51 AM »
I am truly surprised that this image appeared on the Woodpeck.com site
at all, unless it was to show an unsafe method of using a trim router.

What was this image intended to illustrate? I don't see a Woodpeckers
product in the photo which is what makes me question it's use.

Edit: found it.
https://www.woodpeck.com/blog/stylish-bathroom-vanity.html
« Last Edit: December 28, 2021, 10:54 AM by Bob D. »
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline Packard

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Re: Is this safe?
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2021, 11:00 AM »
I did not notice the chatter, but that looks like junk.

If I were doing this, I would use a bearing rabbeting bit and placed a piece of stock inside the frame the same thickness of the frame to support the router.  I would move that support piece as required to complete the job. 

My comment earlier that it would scoot the router across the room was hyperbole.  I did expect that it would want to move at its pace instead of mine.  I suspect that is part of why the chatter appeared.

I would also note that stapling the rattan from behind is the Ikea hack method.  The traditional method uses reed splines and is applied to the exposed side.

This is the traditional method:
« Last Edit: December 28, 2021, 11:04 AM by Packard »

Online ChuckS

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Re: Is this safe?
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2021, 12:51 PM »
Snip.
Edit: found it.
https://www.woodpeck.com/blog/stylish-bathroom-vanity.html

So the unsafe router use was actually made by someone who shared his project on WP's site, not by a WP staff member. Not sure if the site contains any of the usual "No responsibility" or "Use at your own risk" disclaimers.

Offline squall_line

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Re: Is this safe?
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2021, 01:51 PM »
If you think that's a problem, check out the photo right before it.  Plunging a Domino into a piece of stock whilst fingertips are on the immediate backside of the material being plunged.

I'm not sure if it matters to anyone on here whether or not Woodpecker's has a disclaimer on their website about these sorts of things; that's for lawyers to sort out if it ever gets that far.

To think that we all have the time to be having this discussion in the first place...

Offline Packard

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Re: Is this safe?
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2021, 02:55 PM »
It appears that what is most important is that every photo, where possible,  has to include at least one red Woodpeckers' product. 

Only two photos fail in that regard.

Offline tsmi243

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Re: Is this safe?
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2021, 05:17 PM »
Safe?  No, it's clearly sketchy.  Use at your own risk.  Your mileage may vary.  Consult your doctor before taking this medication.  No purchase necessary.  Void where prohibited. 

I wouldn't let anybody do that if I were supervising.  But I can't say I've never, or would never, do something like this if it solved a problem.  I would be reeeeeeally careful though.  Definitely take small bites and turn off the radio for this cut :(

This does present a solution to a problem- you can reach the inside of the corner.  If you flip the fence to the inside, you'll have to stop short.  Yes, a bearing-guided bit would solve the same problem without the sketchiness..... but only if you have the right size.  If I *needed* to make something like this happen, I'd remove the bulk of the waste with something NOT sketchy, and just do the last bit with the sketchy part.  That would remove the risk CRG pointed out about a clean start.

On the other hand, I've been looking for a good reason to justify the MFS I bought last year....

Offline Crazyraceguy

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Re: Is this safe?
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2021, 08:16 PM »
That chatter is actually tearout from cutting the wrong direction. This is especially bad with splintery species like Oak and hickory, but having the cutter exit on unsupported material will do this.
A very shallow climb-cut, similar to how dovetails are cut with a jig, is the best way to avoid this kind of tearout. Many people are sketched out by climb cuts too though.
Personally, I would rather see this done before assembly, on a router table, but you can't always have that "best case scenario".
« Last Edit: December 29, 2021, 12:08 PM by Crazyraceguy »
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Offline Packard

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Re: Is this safe?
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2021, 08:33 AM »
And how did he start the cut?  It does not seem to be a plunge router? I am trying to mime my way through the first plunge without a plunge router and I am not comfortable with the process. 

A CNC router would have worked.

Online ChuckS

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Re: Is this safe?
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2021, 12:01 PM »
Before the plunge router was invented, old folks angled their routers to start such a cut.

Offline Crazyraceguy

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Re: Is this safe?
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2021, 12:11 PM »
Before the plunge router was invented, old folks angled their routers to start such a cut.

And that's exactly why plunge routers were invented. Unless it's a pretty shallow cut, that's sketchy.
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Offline Packard

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Re: Is this safe?
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2021, 01:00 PM »
I have to cut a ¼" wide x ¼" deep groove centered on the face of a cabinet door frame that is 3½" wide x ¾" thick.  I need the groove for the spline on a wicker door front.  It has to go entirely around the frame.

I was planning on doing this on the table mounted router and using the fence for a guide.  I would mark the two edges of the router bit on the fence and make marks for the location of the grooves on the work-piece.  I would guide the door frame until I approach the marks on the fence.  I would clean up the corners with a chisel.

Any thoughts on that approach?

Offline tsmi243

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Re: Is this safe?
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2021, 02:42 PM »
I have to cut a ¼" wide x ¼" deep groove centered on the face of a cabinet door frame that is 3½" wide x ¾" thick.  I need the groove for the spline on a wicker door front.  It has to go entirely around the frame.

I was planning on doing this on the table mounted router and using the fence for a guide.  I would mark the two edges of the router bit on the fence and make marks for the location of the grooves on the work-piece.  I would guide the door frame until I approach the marks on the fence.  I would clean up the corners with a chisel.

Any thoughts on that approach?

I think that's probably the most common way of doing it.  You'll still be manually "plunging" into the cut, but it's easier to do on a table router than a handheld.  Norm Abram did that method a ton on his table saw, on the NYW.


Offline Packard

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Re: Is this safe?
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2021, 03:03 PM »
The complication, which I did not mention, is that the door frame is already painted.  I will be using a down cutting Whiteside bit, which should eliminate any tear-out. 

I will also allow the paint a couple of weeks to cure and I will use the easy-release yellow Frog tape to protect the area not to be cut. 

After I get that all done, I have to apply the cane webbing without screwing up all that went before it.  And this is all new to me. 

The inspiration was this cabinet from Pottery Barn.  All the cabinets in the bathroom were emerald green, and I wanted to break that up.  The cane center panel seemed like a good way to do this. 


https://www.potterybarn.com/products/dolores-cane-cabinet-buffet-mp/

Offline tsmi243

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Re: Is this safe?
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2021, 04:07 PM »
Whatever you're comfortable with is probably the answer. 

I'm really at home with a plunge router- so I'd clamp the door down to the bench, and mask the entire face.  Use an edge guide on the outer edge, and just eyeball the corners.  Square up with a chisel, as you said.

If you don't have (or just don't like) plunge routers, then a table router is probably just as good.  Triple check your layout lines, and go to town.  It's just a groove.  What could possibly go wrong?   [big grin]

Online ChuckS

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Re: Is this safe?
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2021, 04:28 PM »
The complication, which I did not mention, is that the door frame is already painted.  I will be using a down cutting Whiteside bit, which should eliminate any tear-out.  Snip.

Tape as Tsmi suggested would help but not foolproof as paint/wood fibre can still tear. If I were doing such a delicate cut with only one-take, I'd do this:

- Put tape on the cutline area
- Scribe on the tape/wood with a sharp marking gauge (scribe in three strokes: light, med & heavy) to mark off the good and waste side. If you aren't familiar with the three-stroke technique, practice it on a scrap). A deep incised line will prevent tearing off the paint.
- Set the plunge fence so the cutting edge of the bit is on the waste side
- Make multiple passes, not one heavy pass to remove the waste.

You can actually run through the whole thing on a scrap (unpainted or painted).

I wouldn't do it using a router table though as it's much harder to set/position the fence precisely.

Offline Packard

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Re: Is this safe?
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2021, 04:32 PM »
I figure I will make one last light coat of Advance after the groove is cut--unless it is perfect after the cut.   But that is the plan.

I will think about using the plunge base and an edge guide.  I do prefer seeing what I am cutting to seeing indicator lines. 

I will try out a sample on some scrap MDF or plywood.

Offline Crazyraceguy

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Re: Is this safe?
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2021, 06:25 AM »
How big are these doors? Especially in comparison to your router table's fence.
I think, at first thought, that I would do it one the table, with stops.
It would take two set-ups, assuming that the doors are not square.
Using a test piece of the same size, set a start and stop position, using stops clamped to the fence or table. Run those edges. Then change the set-up (stops) to the length of the other sides, so they meet the previous grooves in the corners. No guessing, no slow-downs hoping to hit it close enough, chisel the corners, done.
The fact that the parts are pre-painted is unfortunate. It poses some risk, either way, above or below.
I have had mixed results with tape. Sometimes it works fine, other times it catches or snags, which is a problem. It can make things worse.
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