Author Topic: Help choosing a table saw blade  (Read 2019 times)

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Offline ironchefboyardee

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Help choosing a table saw blade
« on: September 10, 2022, 10:28 AM »
I'm going to buy a 10" table saw blade for use on a Sawstop cabinet saw at the local maker space. I'm over getting burn marks because the communal blades are dull or dirty.

I will mostly be doing rip cuts, because the communal cross cut sleds are always out of square, and I do all my cross cuts at home with my track saw MFT setup.

Will the glue line rip blade make that much of a difference compared to the general purpose? If they'll be really close then maybe I should get the general purpose in case I ever end up doing cross cuts, despite the rip blade being cheaper. Any consideration over ease, frequency, or cost of resharpening?

https://www.rockler.com/freud-premier-fusion-saw-blade
https://www.rockler.com/freud-lm74r-industrial-glue-line-rip-saw-blades

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Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Help choosing a table saw blade
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2022, 10:32 AM »
I have these in the shop now. They are made by Leitz for Harvey. Best rip blade I've ever used.

You'll have to check the arbor size to see if you need a bushing for the Saw Stop.

https://www.harveywoodworking.com/products/destroyer-blades?variant=40800713277623

Tom

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 3801
Re: Help choosing a table saw blade
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2022, 11:32 AM »
I'm going to buy a 10" table saw blade for use on a Sawstop cabinet saw at the local maker space. I'm over getting burn marks because the communal blades are dull or dirty.

I will mostly be doing rip cuts, because the communal cross cut sleds are always out of square, and I do all my cross cuts at home with my track saw MFT setup.

Will the glue line rip blade make that much of a difference compared to the general purpose? If they'll be really close then maybe I should get the general purpose in case I ever end up doing cross cuts, despite the rip blade being cheaper. Any consideration over ease, frequency, or cost of resharpening?

https://www.rockler.com/freud-premier-fusion-saw-blade
https://www.rockler.com/freud-lm74r-industrial-glue-line-rip-saw-blades

All the blades shown in your link are not suitable for use with the SawStop as they are anti-kick back type. Pick a blade that doesn't have that feature (hump).

Offline ironchefboyardee

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Re: Help choosing a table saw blade
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2022, 11:43 AM »
Which hump are you referring to? I don’t see anything in the description or specs on that.

Online waho6o9

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Re: Help choosing a table saw blade
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2022, 11:47 AM »
Get a rip blade for ripping.  Infinity has good rip blades for table saws. 


Offline ChuckS

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Re: Help choosing a table saw blade
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2022, 11:50 AM »


It'll affect SawStop's performance in stopping the blade in case of an accident.

« Last Edit: September 10, 2022, 11:53 AM by ChuckS »

Offline ironchefboyardee

  • Posts: 38
Re: Help choosing a table saw blade
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2022, 12:14 PM »
(Attachment Link)

It'll affect SawStop's performance in stopping the blade in case of an accident.

I see. It looks like all the ripping blades have that, except the lower tooth rough rip saw blades, so unless someone knows of a ripping blade without this I'll go with a general purpose blade.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2022, 12:17 PM by ironchefboyardee »

Offline ChuckS

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Re: Help choosing a table saw blade
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2022, 12:20 PM »
Not sure what ripping blades you've checked, all my WWII ripping blades have no anti-kickback features. I am sure non anti-kickback ripping blades are available other than SawStop and WWII blades, such as amana, prestige, freud etc. (18t to 24t).
« Last Edit: September 10, 2022, 12:44 PM by ChuckS »

Offline rmhinden

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Re: Help choosing a table saw blade
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2022, 12:35 PM »
I have two Forrest blades for my SawStop PCS.   The

Combination:       10" Woodworker II Saw Blade - 40 Teeth
Rip:  10" Woodworker II Saw Blade - 20 Teeth - Fast feed

They both work great.    I use the Rip blade when ripping a lot of hardwood, especially thicker than 3/4".    For everything else including a few hardwood rips, I use the combination blade.

Either blade would be fine, but I suspect you will be happier with the combination blade as it is more versatile.   

Bob



Offline ironchefboyardee

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Re: Help choosing a table saw blade
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2022, 01:49 PM »
Not sure what ripping blades you've checked, all my WWII ripping blades have no anti-kickback features. I am sure non anti-kickback ripping blades are available other than SawStop and WWII blades, such as amana, prestige, freud etc. (18t to 24t).

I believe those are low tooth count blades, which I read were more suited to rough cuts/rips, not for finish cuts. All the high tooth rip cut blades seem to have the kickback feature on them.

https://www.woodcraft.com/blog_entries/choosing-the-right-table-saw-blades

Offline ironchefboyardee

  • Posts: 38
Re: Help choosing a table saw blade
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2022, 01:50 PM »
I have two Forrest blades for my SawStop PCS.   The

Combination:       10" Woodworker II Saw Blade - 40 Teeth
Rip:  10" Woodworker II Saw Blade - 20 Teeth - Fast feed

They both work great.    I use the Rip blade when ripping a lot of hardwood, especially thicker than 3/4".    For everything else including a few hardwood rips, I use the combination blade.

Either blade would be fine, but I suspect you will be happier with the combination blade as it is more versatile.   

Bob

Versatility aside, do you get better rip cut quality out of either of them?

Offline rmhinden

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Re: Help choosing a table saw blade
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2022, 02:05 PM »
Versatility aside, do you get better rip cut quality out of either of them?

I think the combination blade generally gives higher quality rip cuts, but since I don't use it for the ripping thick hardwood, I can't really compare.   This may come down to what you are planning to rip.

Bob

Offline ironchefboyardee

  • Posts: 38
Re: Help choosing a table saw blade
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2022, 02:47 PM »
Versatility aside, do you get better rip cut quality out of either of them?

I think the combination blade generally gives higher quality rip cuts, but since I don't use it for the ripping thick hardwood, I can't really compare.   This may come down to what you are planning to rip.

Bob

I'll be cutting mostly white oak, anywhere from 1/2" to 1-1/2". So that doesn't help make a decision.

Offline ChuckS

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Re: Help choosing a table saw blade
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2022, 03:20 PM »
Not sure what ripping blades you've checked, all my WWII ripping blades have no anti-kickback features. I am sure non anti-kickback ripping blades are available other than SawStop and WWII blades, such as amana, prestige, freud etc. (18t to 24t).

I believe those are low tooth count blades, which I read were more suited to rough cuts/rips, not for finish cuts. All the high tooth rip cut blades seem to have the kickback feature on them.

https://www.woodcraft.com/blog_entries/choosing-the-right-table-saw-blades

Even with my WWII 30 T, I often need to remove machine marks. My WWII  20T has just arrived, which is better for 2" stock and above.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2022, 03:25 PM by ChuckS »

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Help choosing a table saw blade
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2022, 04:20 PM »
We rip 1/4 to 2” RSWO and hard maple stock with the Leitz/Harvey rip blade, it leaves a glue line rip unless the material is not fed evenly.

Tom

Offline rmhinden

  • Posts: 526
Re: Help choosing a table saw blade
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2022, 04:21 PM »
I'll be cutting mostly white oak, anywhere from 1/2" to 1-1/2". So that doesn't help make a decision.

If you are considering the Forrest blades, suggest you give them a call on Monday and see what they suggest.   I have found them helpful in the past.

Bob

Offline smorgasbord

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Re: Help choosing a table saw blade
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2022, 04:29 PM »
Whole books can be written on tablesaw blade selection, as there are many factors operating together and what's important to you may be different than what's important to other people. Here are some of my thoughts:

• The primary reason why "rip blades" have fewer teeth is to enable faster feed rates.
• The way those "kickback shoulders" work is to prevent you from feeding the workpiece too quickly.  Literally, as the shoulder doesn't cut wood so you just can't push it too far before the shoulder gets in there and stops your feed until the next tooth comes over and cuts a bit of wood away.
• Burning is caused by teeth rubbing against previously cut wood. There are several potential causes of this, from misaligned saws to dirty blades to blades with wobble to not being to keep the wood tight against the rip fence to the wood itself releasing stresses that cause the wood to change shape as you cut it. Feeding too slowly aggravates the problem, but is not the primary cause and usually requires something else to be at play.
• The "ole standby" for 10" tablesaws is the Forrest 40T Woodworking II blade: https://www.forrestblades.com/woodworker-ii-all-purpose-saw-blade-for-table-saws/ They say to choose the 30Tooth version if you're mostly cutting 2" or thicker woods.

If you're getting burning, there are several steps you can take to diagnose the problem. Here are some:
• First, just try raising the blade so that it sticks up more than ½" above your workpiece. Yeah, I know the standard advice is to keep the saw blade just ⅛" above the workpiece, but that's for safety reasons only. If you're using a splitter and guard and push sticks, that low a blade keeps too many teeth in the cut kerf for too long and if everything isn't perfect can lead to burning. Raising the blade so that at the top the full tooth is above the workpiece helps a lot with burning (teeth don't spend as long in the kerf) and also means easier feeding.
• Second, are you using featherboards and a splitter? Featherboards keep the stock against the rip fence so it doesn't move a tiny bit away, causing the back teeth to rub and burn. A splitter can help with that, too, if it's thick enough.
• Third, if you're still getting burning, try to watch the stock get burned as you're feeding it. This requires a clear guard (or no guard, which can be dangerous). But, see if the stock is burning from the "back teeth" or not. Back teeth refers to the teeth coming UP from the table that should be riding inside the previously cut kerf and not doing any cutting. But, they can rub in that kerf and cause burning. If this is happening, they you may have a mis-aligned rip fence. If you're getting burning at the top of the stock, then you didn't raise the blade enough (and may still have alignment or saw blade quality issues).
• Fourth, as mentioned above, check the alignment of your rip fence. Maybe even have the rip fence at the rear of the saw be slightly away from the blade just to be sure.
• Finally, it is possible, but not necessarily likely, that changing the blade will solve your burning problems by itself.

Anyway, get a good 40 tooth ATB blade and if you get burning with that, then look elsewhere for your burning solution.


Offline ChuckS

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Re: Help choosing a table saw blade
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2022, 04:33 PM »
Glue line rip is not the same as machine marks free. I can joint boards with the WWII 30T cuts but they aren't good enough as final edges.

Offline ironchefboyardee

  • Posts: 38
Re: Help choosing a table saw blade
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2022, 05:10 PM »
That's really helpful input all around. I'm going to consider the Harvey, WWII, and the Freud general purpose 40t. I just found that Forrest will resharpen any manufactures blade which is good to know.

@ChuckS thanks for pointing out the incompatibility. There's a good chance I would have gone with the Freud rip blade without ever realizing it was making the setup less safe.

@smorgasbord that's a great point that it may not be the blade. I haven't been using a featherboard but I will give that a try as well as raising the blade up beyond 1/8". Sometimes these communal blades are obviously dull, so even if I have other issues going on, hopefully it improves with a sharp blade.

Online 4nthony

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Re: Help choosing a table saw blade
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2022, 05:48 PM »
I'll be cutting mostly white oak, anywhere from 1/2" to 1-1/2". So that doesn't help make a decision.

I'm mostly done with a kitchen project where I used 3/4 and 6/4 white oak. I used both 20T and 40T WWII blades with the 40T having a predictably cleaner cut. As mentioned above, the 20T will probably excel when the material exceeds 2" or more.

Regarding the anti-kickback shoulders, here's Trent Davis' thoughts on the topic:

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Offline Mini Me

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Re: Help choosing a table saw blade
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2022, 05:52 PM »
I would have a really close look at the fence alignment to the blade before anything else. Parallel to a tad of toe out is what you are looking for. WW blades are excellent but then most major brands will give good results such as Tenryu which are at least as good https://tenryusawblades.com/ as WW.

Offline Bob D.

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Re: Help choosing a table saw blade
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2022, 06:55 PM »
• The primary reason why "rip blades" have fewer teeth is to enable faster feed rates.

I always thought rip blades had fewer teeth and hence more space between the teeth to allow more room to collect the swarf and move it out of the cut zone. You're cutting with the grain so in effect chiseling out small shavings, not crosscutting which makes for smaller, shorter bits. This may allow you to feed your stock faster and that may be desirable to avoid burning on woods like Cherry but I did not think that was the primary reason.
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Offline smorgasbord

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Re: Help choosing a table saw blade
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2022, 01:12 AM »
• The primary reason why "rip blades" have fewer teeth is to enable faster feed rates.

I always thought rip blades had fewer teeth and hence more space between the teeth to allow more room to collect the swarf and move it out of the cut zone. You're cutting with the grain so in effect chiseling out small shavings, not crosscutting which makes for smaller, shorter bits. This may allow you to feed your stock faster and that may be desirable to avoid burning on woods like Cherry but I did not think that was the primary reason.

Fewer teeth mean larger gullets, which mean more wood dust can be carried away, which means faster feed rates possible.
But, fewer teeth mean a rougher cut, but when ripping that effect isn't as pronounced.

This Stumpy Nubs video actually does a decent job explaining the major attributes to consider when choosing a blade:




Offline Crazyraceguy

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Re: Help choosing a table saw blade
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2022, 07:20 AM »
I work in a large commercial cabinet shop that has had at least 2 of the industrial version of these saws for the more than 10 years. My first experience with one was in 2009. In that time, I have replaced dozens of these cartridges, with every kind of blade you can imagine stuck in them.
The only exception is the dado stack, no one has ever set that off. We have had the same one for years. The stopping time "might" be calculatable, but it's so fast that in real terms doesn't matter. You have to remember that it is dropping out of the way too and that is not affected by a micro-second difference in stopping time.
To my knowledge, none have actually been fingers, as the "keep guards in place" rules are followed strictly. Dados, other non-through-cuts are the only exceptions and only a few of us ever do that anyway. Most of the triggering comes from mistakenly cutting conductive material. Metal laminate is the most common, but there have been others. I set it off the first time I cut the PVC sheet material that covered the outside of those curved nurse station desks. The PVC generates enough static electricity, sliding across the saw, to trigger it.
"Someone" in the shop will set one off fairly regularly, enough that we keep them in stock.
At one point I was getting concerned about how many times these machines can actually take this, it's a rather violent event. I was assured by one of their tech people, during a phone conversation about another issue, that it was not a problem.
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Offline ironchefboyardee

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Re: Help choosing a table saw blade
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2022, 09:34 AM »
Thanks for that video. He confirms 40-50t combination/general purpose blade for finish quality rip cuts. I guess the tooth count is more important than the tooth shape for finish quality over speed.


• The primary reason why "rip blades" have fewer teeth is to enable faster feed rates.

I always thought rip blades had fewer teeth and hence more space between the teeth to allow more room to collect the swarf and move it out of the cut zone. You're cutting with the grain so in effect chiseling out small shavings, not crosscutting which makes for smaller, shorter bits. This may allow you to feed your stock faster and that may be desirable to avoid burning on woods like Cherry but I did not think that was the primary reason.

Fewer teeth mean larger gullets, which mean more wood dust can be carried away, which means faster feed rates possible.
But, fewer teeth mean a rougher cut, but when ripping that effect isn't as pronounced.

This Stumpy Nubs video actually does a decent job explaining the major attributes to consider when choosing a blade:

Online Cheese

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Re: Help choosing a table saw blade
« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2022, 10:47 AM »
I've always been a fan and a user of Forrest blades, I've used them for years on table saws & a radial arm saw. However, once I started purchasing Festool saws, the Leitz blades that come with them really impressed me, to the point that I feel the Leitz blades are certainly the equal of Forrest or maybe even better than Forrest. Those Harvey/Leitz blades that Tom refers to certainly are reasonably priced. The BR36 rip blade for $89 compared to the WWII 30 tooth for $155.

Having said that, Forrest does make an "Ultra-Planer" 30/40 tooth blade for $156/$173.

https://www.sliversmill.com/category_12_UltraPlaner.html

Offline Crazyraceguy

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Re: Help choosing a table saw blade
« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2022, 11:10 AM »
I had never used a Leitz blade until a couple of years ago, when we switched sharpening services.
An actual Leitz rep comes to us every week. Most of the blades for all of the saws come from them now. Everything from the huge ones in the beam saw to the TS55.
I still have a few Festool branded ones, but they are Leitz too as far as I know.
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Offline ironchefboyardee

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Re: Help choosing a table saw blade
« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2022, 11:16 AM »
It's between the Forrest WWII, the Harvey (Leitz) BR36, and the Leitz Pro combo blade. It's almost the same price as the Forrest WWII. I'm leaning towards one of the Leitz options since they seem to have pretty good reviews and are a little more affordable than the WWII.

https://vsctools.com/shop/leitz-combo-table-saw-blade/

Edit: I ended up ordering the WWII. I realized afterwards the Harvey rip blade does have anti kickback humps although they are smaller than those on the Freud rip blades.

The Leitz Pro blades look good but I couldn't find any info or reviews on them besides one Youtube video from the distributor, and that combo blade is close to the WWII cost.

I had never used a Leitz blade until a couple of years ago, when we switched sharpening services.
An actual Leitz rep comes to us every week. Most of the blades for all of the saws come from them now. Everything from the huge ones in the beam saw to the TS55.
I still have a few Festool branded ones, but they are Leitz too as far as I know.

I've always been a fan and a user of Forrest blades, I've used them for years on table saws & a radial arm saw. However, once I started purchasing Festool saws, the Leitz blades that come with them really impressed me, to the point that I feel the Leitz blades are certainly the equal of Forrest or maybe even better than Forrest. Those Harvey/Leitz blades that Tom refers to certainly are reasonably priced. The BR36 rip blade for $89 compared to the WWII 30 tooth for $155.

Having said that, Forrest does make an "Ultra-Planer" 30/40 tooth blade for $156/$173.

https://www.sliversmill.com/category_12_UltraPlaner.html

« Last Edit: September 11, 2022, 02:56 PM by ironchefboyardee »

Offline Packard

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Re: Help choosing a table saw blade
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2022, 02:57 PM »
For many years, I have used separate rip blades and cross cut blades.  I’m getting lazy in my old age, and I tried the Freud Fusion blade ($80.00 currently from Amazon).  But less than $60.00 in 2018 when I bought mine. 

Freud-Diablo P410 Premier Fusion 10-Inch 40 Tooth Hi-ATB General Purpose Saw Blade with 5/8-Inch Arbor and PermaShield Coating

It cross cuts and rips as smoothly as my dedicated blades.  But note they set limitations on rip thickness to 1-1/2” even though the blade can cut a advertised 3-1/2” thick cross cut.  It shows a 3/8” minimum cross cut thickness, but I have used it regularly on 1/4” nominal plywood with good results. 

I’m happy with this blade.  I have not touched my dedicated rip or cross cut blades since I got this.