Please keep this civil and pleasant for everyone!

I bought a Chinese self-leveling rotary laser level with 12 lines/ 3 360° boxes. It is battery powered with the manufacturers own, proprietary, battery pack & a charger is build into the tool. Typical mains to usb power adapter included. An additional variable mount was included that is equipped with magnets, a 5/16" threaded bushing for larger/ professional tripods (the laser unit itself "only" has a 1/4" threaded bushing) another 1/4" threaded bushing so that mount can also be used with smaller tripods - and other means of attaching the mount to the worksite. It's a green laser, allegedly the diode is made by Osram. Whatever that means - or not. A carrying case was also included, as well as a "target plate".

While looking at this, a 20 EUR off coupon appeared which then resulted in 129,99 EUR total for the kit as described.

Now I probably don't need to say it, but typically this type of tool/kit starts at roughly 350,- EUR and that won't even get you a Bosch Professional and wouldn't get you even close to owning a Leica brand laser level of this type.

I felt playful and bought the Chinese laser.

Typical for this type of purchase, the shipping & handling was a bit sketchy. I got a tracking# days before the package was in the hands of the actual carrier - but it was delivered roughly within the estimated timeframe.

When I set it up I was pretty impressed with what those 129,99 got me. Well made, not emitting the typical nauseating smell that a lot of brands struggle with when selling Chinese made products and overall I'd rate this a 4 star product easily.

Obviously I checked it for accuracy against other tools at my disposal and it's spot on.

So what I'm asking is probably this, when they can make this for that kind of money. (And I always knew that when you do not push them for the absolute lowest price and ask for quality, they can deliver that with certain quality management/ quality insurance in place.) What stops them from literally flooding the market with price sensitive tools that are on par with those of western professional tool manufacturers quality wise? What's new to me here/ in this case, is that it is not a (western) branded product, it's their own brand & product.

So let's assume our praised leaders avoid WW3 in the coming years, which I would be thankful for - will we see Chinese tool manufacturers actively competing with their own brands in the western world & against western tool manufacturers, be it those that already manufacture in China today or those that only source parts there and still build the tools in the western world today?

Curious what everybody thinks about this!

Kind regards,
Oliver

In the 1960s, some very attractive and very cheap tools were coming in from India.  Of course the quality was terrible and that source of tools quickly dried up.

The Chinese were smarter.  They hired western consultants to oversee production and their quality became quite good.

Those same manufacturers, when they see a product that looks simple and they don’t hire the consultants, are perfectly capable of turning out junk.

The company I used to work for produced hundreds of thousands of welded D-rings for the tarpaulin industry.

A Chinese vendor approached us and we tried one 25,000 piece order.

These D-ring had to hold 250 pounds before failure.  The minimum we allowed in our production was 400 pounds and we frequently went to 600 pound or more.

We received the sample order and they looked perfect, with full penetration welds and a nice zinc plating.

But all of them failed before reaching 250 pounds.  Some failed at such low poundage that our tensile meter did not register.

The job called for C1010 or lower steel.  We sent the samples to a testing lab to determine what grade of steel they used.

It was “no grade”.  Apparently, they just melted any steel they could find and made it into wire.  The steel did not resemble the chemistry of any known grade of steel.

We originally thought they might have used a high carbon steel (notoriously difficult to weld, and requires an anneal after welding).  But that was not the case.  The steel had a high content of silicone, making all welds suspect.

It was such a simple job that they skipped the western consultants.

My takeaway is, if it is a challenging piece to produce and they are forced to hire outside consultants, then it is likely that the quality will be very good.

But contrary to “logic”, the really simple jobs are likely to be junk.

I run a 1957 Morris Minor as a weekend/summer hobby car.

A few years ago, a neighbor I didn't know used to park a Morris Minor Traveller in his driveway. I don't know what year it was but I always thought it was a cool car for cruising around the beach in Southern California. When I spotted this car back in 2018, it was the first I'd heard of Morris. I hadn't seen or heard mention of them since until I read your post.

When I spotted this car back in 2018, it was the first I'd heard of Morris. I hadn't seen or heard mention of them since until I read your post.

Staying off-thread for a moment:

The Morris car brand - founded by William Morris (a.k.a. Viscount Nuffield), has its origins pre- WW1, and became one of the staple brands of the mass-market sector of the UK’s motor industry until it’s demise along with its then (mostly woeful) owner, the British Leyland conglomerate, in the 1980s.

With regards to things possibly more familiar in the US, Morris was one of the (two?) brands applied to the legendary Mini Cooper. And an early sideline of Morris, in the 20s, launched from another Morris-related business, Morris Garages, concentrated more on tuned, small Morris saloons (sedans) and sports cars. ‘Morris Garages’ equals ‘MG’.

(Apologies for the diversion…)

@wpz

This wasn't an import per the seller. The price included VAT and I have a proper invoice.

But even if it didn't, you'd get nowhere even close to 400,- if it was added.

Let's do the math:

129,99 including shipping. Add 19% VAT -> 154,69. I'm way too lazy to look up current tariffs, but from extensive experience with international imports most likely that would be a couple of bucks. So lets make it 160,- or worst 170,- total. Still miles away of 400,-.

For the rest, I'm totally aware of that - worked in technical documentation.


Kind regards,
Oliver

Chinese products by far outnumber Western products in quantity, but lack in quality.

Chinese products are only made to LOOK like the real thing we're used to here, but use them, and they'll crumble in your hands. A Chinese spanner may look like a Gedore, but use it and it's broken after you have to put force on a nut that's really tight. And just the other day I needed to cut a brake cable for a bicycle and the pliers supplied to me from the cheap 40 euro set with 40 tools in it, couldn't even do it. It was not only too dull to cut this simple multi-stranded cable, it got dinged by it. I had to get my 35 euro Knipex out to cut the cable.

A Chinese tool might look good if you're a hobbyist who's careful of his tools and only has to whip it out once every two months. But place it in the hands of a professional crew that uses and abuses it 8 hours a day, and it not only slows you down by 75% but you can buy a new one after 3 days.

Nevertheless, that WILL change, they will get better over time, once the Chinese will realise there's also great value in quality. Shortsightedness of western manufacturers have transferred almost all production capacity over to China, which gives them tremendous power and leaves the west limp in a race we're definitely losing.

So let's assume our praised leaders avoid WW3 in the coming years, which I would be thankful for

No, they won't, they will cause it. They are weak old men and incapable of handling a crisis of the magnitude the world's about to face.

Wars break out when there's a shift in the balance of power. And boy, are we gonna be witness to the biggest shift in the history of mankind.

@woodbutcherbower

Do you have a leasing contract/ fleet management with Hilti or do they offer this kind of service to all types of customers?


Kind regards,
Oliver

Hi Oliver - My 6 x Hilti machines are all on their fleet management scheme which includes the lease of the tool, plus unlimited repairs and loans (not that they're needed very often, the stuff's virtually indestructible). Customers who purchase tools outright get a 2-year warranty, but then pay for repairs and the parts needed. The speed and quality of service is identical. Every repair then carries a new 6-month no-cost warranty. But Hilti also cap repair costs over the lifetime of the tool, meaning that once repair costs have reached a certain percentage of the cost of a new equivalent, there'll be nothing more to pay no matter how many times repairs are needed in the future. The percentage varies, but is usually around 50% depending upon the tool and what kind of abuse it's likely to receive. This cap applies until a tool is 10 years old. It's called 'having confidence in your product'.

Going back to my first post about piles of unrecycled junk disposable tools, I also admire and respect their corporate 'circularity' policy regarding tool/parts reuse/recycling and refurbished tool donation to educational and humanitarian causes. All is explained here;

https://www.hilti.group/content/hilti/CP/XX/en/services/tool-services/lifetime-services.html



Kevin

Please be careful about the paths this discussion takes.

Seth

American manufacturers know how to get quality from Chinese manufacturers.  For example large iron castings are rarely produced in the USA anymore.  Delta and others have had jointers made in China.  They are made to their specifications and either their employees are there to sign off on production or a hired agent is.  The jointers, several different brands seem to differ by color only, have been entirely satisfactory.

Shwinn Bicycles was enticed to produce bikes in China.  Huge incentives were offered. They had previously moved from Chicago to Taiwan.  When they left Taiwan, that company became Giant Bicycles.

The Chinese expected that Schwinn would hire 500 or more to operate the company.  Instead, Schwinn chose automation.  Though the cost to assemble a bicycle wheel (“lacing the spokes”) was about the same whether automated or using cheap Chinese labor, they found that the automation yielded better quality.  The same held true for welding.  Robots could produce consistently high quality welds—far better than the human counterpart.

So, if the item lends itself to automation or it is sophisticated enough to require western oversight of production, it is likely that the quality will be good.

On the other hand, anyone with a CNC milling machine can turn out good looking milled aluminum parts that look like those produced by TSO or Woodpeckers.  In many cases, simple reverse engineering is fine.

There are other areas where the Chinese have an advantage.  It is estimated that 40% to 60% of the total cost of metal finishing in the USA is the cost to comply with environmental laws.  The Chinese ignore that issue entirely.  So any parts that are anodized or zinc plated or powder coated are going to cost much less than in the USA.

But that pretty red anodized aluminum gadget from China may not have the same depth of anodizing as the American version. The surface will be softer and will scratch more easily. 

There are good deals to be had, but I find going through an American manufacturer that imports is more likely to offer a good result than ordering directly from a Chinese manufacturer.

My 'other' interest is astronomy and in particular the instrumentation.

Over the last decade or two, consumer astronomical equipment has increasingly come from China. First it was western brands outsourcing the manufacture. Then came waves of Chinese brands (clones to be polite), then more recently the western brands have just bought the Chinese designed stuff and put labels on.

The quality generally has declined over this period. One western manufacturer went bankrupt, got bought out, and is now bringing manufacture back.

One or two brands are just about OK, but they seem to have got the trick of Taiwan optics in Chinese housings. But the electronics are unreliable.

The final result. 90% of what is available, while competitive on price, is barely fit for purpose. OK for hobbyists but soon shows it bad colours when pushed. At 90% choice has effectively been removed. The price of non-Chinese products has soared and waiting lists grown.

As has been pointed out, the common business model is to sell stuff in the expectation that no support will be offered. The product performance is often not well specified - when it is it often fails to meet it. I spent some time helping a UK retailer check telescopes before he shipped them to customers. 50% were faulty.

The astronomy hobby community has now split into at least two. Many buy Chinese and get by. An increasing number are not, which interestingly is slowly driving the market to bring back US or EU manufacture.

Coming back to woodworking tools. A friend bought a well known brand of hand plane. Now made in China. He asked my to sharpen it as it seemed blunt. In fact it was impossible to sharpen. The blade steel was so soft it would not take an edge. I tried to harden it (900C then quenching) it got a little better, but dulled very quickly. Poor steel.

So the average DIY person, buying a hand plane today has no choice. Its a cheap product, but doesnt work.

And yet the Luban planes among other Chinese designed and made tools are exceptionally good quality.

True (although I dont find them 'exceptional' - just very good). I was meaning the planes sold in DIY stores etc.

What stops them from literally flooding the market with price sensitive tools that are on par with those of western professional tool manufacturers quality wise? What's new to me here/ in this case, is that it is not a (western) branded product, it's their own brand & product

Well, they do own TTI, Chervon, and Positec.  All of which have well known western branded subsidiaries.  And taking Chervon as an example, they have a domestic (Asia & Africa) brand of Devon which focuses more on the industrial tool side.  I think they already flooded the market   No site is going to use Dewalts unless its the equivalent of wearing Levi's and not to do work.

I'm kind of mixed on all of it.
It seems like nearly everything is already being made there, so the "intellectual property" is already being disclosed to them. It doesn't take much of a leap to see them doing their own thing with it? They don't even have to purchase goods to copy, the western companies (who are trying to increase their profits) are providing it to them. Certainly there are "agreements", but what can they (or will they) do about it?
I am surprised that they don't just produce their own line of a lot of these products directly. They need better names than that Bang good stuff though. Bang good is a horrible name to start with and the rest are worse.
So many of the old American tool manufacturers have sold out and are just riding on that name that used to be something.  I really appreciate the ones who are still trying, but it's a "catch 22". Manufacturing here just costs more, yet those people who earn those higher wages still want the lowest price for the goods that they buy?
Quality and low price just don't go together, time costs money and quality takes time.

The next big market target is electric cars. The US has not seen it yet but China has started to export to Australia & NZ using 3 or 4 brands and one of those brands has built a production line specifically to supply both countries with electric cars to the tune of about 2,000 a month and they are sold for an affordable price. China has a stated goal of owning 85% of the world's electric car market and I would not bet against them achieving it. 

Quote from: six-point socket II on February 06, 2023, 05:25 PM

What stops them from literally flooding the market with price sensitive tools that are on par with those of western professional tool manufacturers quality wise? What's new to me here/ in this case, is that it is not a (western) branded product, it's their own brand & product

Well, they do own TTI, Chervon, and Positec.  All of which have well known western branded subsidiaries.  And taking Chervon as an example, they have a domestic (Asia & Africa) brand of Devon which focuses more on the industrial tool side.  I think they already flooded the market   No site is going to use Dewalts unless its the equivalent of wearing Levi's and not to do work.

My "idea" was, them entering the Market under their own brand & name and then actively competing against the established brands (like the manufacturer behind my laser level does) - not them just making tools for well-known and established brands as it is currently. And also not the very cheap (junk) products you can get at various places, but really an all in all competitive product that is cheaper because the "brand margin" is entirely out of the equation.

Kind regards,
Oliver