Author Topic: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?  (Read 4080 times)

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Offline jussi

  • Posts: 306
Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« on: June 16, 2020, 10:00 AM »
Looking to upgrade my impact driver.  I was leaning towards the Milwaukee surge model but just noticed Festool was coming out with their version.  Any opinions on both?

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1373
  • formerly @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2020, 10:31 AM »
Festool of course.

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline threesixright

  • Posts: 536
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2020, 10:43 AM »
If you ask on both forums, change you end up with both [big grjn]


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Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6629
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2020, 11:16 AM »
I think the Milwaukee might perform better as they have lots of experience making impact drivers.

Festool has close to zero experience in making impact drivers. They only made one before, and though it's not that bad (I have one), the way they marketed and packaged it was a complete failure.

In the end you might ask yourself what's the most compatible battery platform for you.... if you have lots of other cordless Festools or Milwaukees already you might stick with that.

Offline TwelvebyTwenty

  • Posts: 86
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2020, 11:25 AM »
I don't think an impact driver is the sort of tool that should decide which system you buy into in isolation.

If you want a cordless track saw, for example, in the future get the Festool impact/batteries - because Milwaukee don't make a track saw (let alone a cordless one). Similarly if you want a more serious heavy duty cordless SDS drill, or 'hole hawg', or chainsaw - get the Milwaukee impact driver/batteires, because Festool don't make those tools. In short choose the best system for you, not just this one particular tool.

If you already have both systems then I'd go with Milwaukee as probably cheaper and they have a proven track record with impact drivers.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2020, 11:29 AM by TwelvebyTwenty »

Offline Peter_C

  • Posts: 873
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2020, 12:01 PM »
M12 Surge is a winner! Small, light, and drives large screws home without an issue. Plus it fits in my tool vest pocket perfectly. The M18 Surge is nice, but gets 10% the usage of the M12 Surge. Can't comment on the Festool, but I am sure it will be good.

Offline denovo

  • Posts: 67
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2020, 12:18 PM »
The Milwaukee impacts are powerful but the variable speed trigger isn't that variable and eventually starts working intermittently.  After a year of daily site use the brushless motors seem to give up the ghost as well.  At least in Canada Milwaukee will not honor the warranty if the impact shows signs of excessive use (they consider it abused).   Therefore if it's a shop drill you shouldn't have a problem with the warranty but a site drill essentially doesn't have one.

I ended up switching from Milwaukee to Hilti after getting frustrated with the unreliable trigger and lack of warranty.  I'm also invested in the Festool battery platform so I'll be getting a Festool impact once they are released.

Offline Dan C

  • Posts: 48
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2020, 02:18 PM »
I run a mix of Milwaukee and Festool around the house and for impacts, I have both the M12 and M18 Surge Milwaukees.  They are super quiet and the drive speed and control is much better than anything else I have used. I have the Fuel non-surge impact and I use it only once in a while if the surge cant drive something (very rarely can it not).

I have tried the Festool drills in a couple varieties and I do not like them for some reason.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2020, 02:22 PM by Dan C »

Offline Banana

  • Posts: 48
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2020, 03:06 PM »
I have a bit of Milwaukee tools as well but I thought this was interesting,  or maybe not so much considering the Kobalt is a higher voltage.  When the Makita 40v stuff starts to dribble out I will be watching closely.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CBDcPfCHBw4/

Offline fshanno

  • Posts: 1001
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2020, 06:43 PM »
I have a bit of Milwaukee tools as well but I thought this was interesting,  or maybe not so much considering the Kobalt is a higher voltage.  When the Makita 40v stuff starts to dribble out I will be watching closely.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CBDcPfCHBw4/

These store brands have been upping their game lately.  This 24v lineup is interesting. 
The one thing we learn from history is that we never learn from history.

Offline jussi

  • Posts: 306
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2020, 12:31 AM »
Thanks for the replies guys.  I used to be in the camp of buying into the same ecosystem but it seems like manufacturer sales have gotten so good now that it kind of evens out the playing field.  The savings you get from being able to use the same battery on several tools aren't that great when companies will throw in free batteries (or even starter kits) with a bare tool purchase.  So for me I'd rather get the best tool (in my budget of course) rather getting one that's the same color as the ones I already have.  Plus I already have 4 different branded cordless tools anyways. 

That's a good point about Festool not having as much experience with impact drivers.  I was kind of leaning towards Milwaukee anyways.  Plus they have the M18 surge with starter kit for $200. 

Offline Peter_C

  • Posts: 873
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2020, 03:26 AM »
I was kind of leaning towards Milwaukee anyways.  Plus they have the M18 surge with starter kit for $200. 
My preference for impacts is to use a 2.0Ah battery. Since I can drive screws for hours on a 2.0Ah battery, it is easy enough to take a break and swap batteries.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Milwaukee-M18-FUEL-SURGE-18-Volt-Lithium-Ion-Brushless-Cordless-1-4-in-Hex-Impact-Driver-with-5-0-Ah-2-0-Ah-Battery-Charger-2760-20-48-59-1850TP/312776251

Offline aloysius

  • Posts: 398
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2020, 11:26 AM »
Milwaukee have a bigger variety of tools available, better batteries, greater expertise & proven performance.
FOG-wit since '95:  Some say since birth...

Offline Banana

  • Posts: 48
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2020, 04:04 PM »
Speaking of deals I was in the 'orange' box store today and noticed they had an in-store deal on some of the Milwaukee 12v stuff that you can bundle with a 6.0Ah 12v batt for $179.

Offline jussi

  • Posts: 306
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2020, 10:55 AM »
Sale had me spend a little more than I anticipated.  Ended getting the surge plus grinder, 8 and 6 ah starter kit, and sawzall 🙄

Offline Josh2

  • Posts: 43
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2020, 01:15 PM »
If you care about noise at all, M12 Surge. For $200 you get the package with 2 small batteries. More than enough for most use cases. The noise difference compared to other impact drivers is huge!

Offline rst

  • Posts: 2418
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2020, 01:18 PM »
Josh is correct the surge is quieter than my drills.

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 1111
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2020, 05:47 PM »
Looking to upgrade my impact driver.  I was leaning towards the Milwaukee surge model but just noticed Festool was coming out with their version.  Any opinions on both?

Festool or Milwaukee? I’d go Makita, they invented cordless drills, and theirs in my opinion are still the best, especially the top end models.

Same with Multi tools, Fein invented them, and their range is still the best out there, that why Festool approached Fein to make the Vecturo.

Obviously it’s still opinion based, but the Makita impacts are a hard act to follow.

Offline Banana

  • Posts: 48
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2020, 11:24 PM »
... Makita, they invented cordless drills, ...

Black & Decker.

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 1111
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2020, 05:03 AM »
... Makita, they invented cordless drills, ...

Black & Decker.

Well I’m not a historian but, all the information I’ve received say Makita first invented re-chargeable drills, then a step further with cordless drills. It was quite some time before other manufacturers followed suit. Probably because of patent.

I started out 40 odd years ago, never saw another cordless drill other than Makita.

Apart from De Walt, the two Black and Decker tools I owned, took a dive after a few months.
It was more of a joke or home owner brand over here.

Here’s one example of the many things I’ve received information about:

https://www.its.co.uk/blog/trade-gossip/makita-100-years-still-powering/

I once had a chat with a Makita representative from Tokyo, he also claimed this was true, and proudly parts of displays at Makita HQ.

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 4108
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2020, 10:06 AM »
I just recently gave away my Milwaukee Fuel impact driver (purchased in 2014).  I got the Makita version about 2 years ago, which I bought on sale more to get the batteries and charger to support the bare tool 23 gauge pin cordless nailer I had just picked up.  But after testing the Makita and Milwaukee side by side, I found the Makita to be quicker and steadier.  I didn't compare battery life, but since I generally don't use the impact driver in long stretches, that was not a consideration.

I still may get the TID at some point for purposes of mobility and efficiency when I'm working outside the shop.
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Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7511
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2020, 10:40 AM »
Black & Decker.

FWIW...Black & Decker did invent the first cordless electric drill with ni-cad batteries in 1961.

And a few years before that, Milwaukee came out with the first portable hand drill which was tethered to a large lead acid battery. It definitely stretched the definition of portable.  [jawdrop]

Offline xedos

  • Posts: 341
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2020, 11:11 AM »
Quote
In the end you might ask yourself what's the most compatible battery platform for you.... if you have lots of other cordless Festools or Milwaukees already you might stick with that.


This ^^^

and if you want one for a 12v battery platform, then Festool is out.


Quote
FWIW...Black & Decker did invent the first cordless electric drill with ni-cad batteries in 1961.

For NASA I believe.


Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7511
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2020, 11:33 AM »

Quote
FWIW...Black & Decker did invent the first cordless electric drill with ni-cad batteries in 1961.

For NASA I believe.

That would make sense as the time frame would be proper.  [smile]

Also B&D did design an impact wrench for NASA.


Offline ear3

  • Posts: 4108
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2020, 01:42 PM »
I didn't realize NASA's role.  I'm trying to imagine an astronaut on a space walk getting spun around by the drill as he's trying to unscrew a panel from the shuttle.

The development of tools for space would make a awesome spin-off movie to the Right Stuff.  Instead of test pilots, we get the story of daring, buzz-cut tool testers doing zero gravity simulations of drilling during high altitude descents.

https://www.nasa.gov/offices/ipp/home/myth_tools.html
« Last Edit: June 20, 2020, 01:47 PM by ear3 »
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T 18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TID 18 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS-EC 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • AGC 18-115 • CT 26 w/BT module • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 1111
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2020, 07:15 PM »
After some renewed research today, I read that it’s an age old argument but, from what I can gather, Black and Decker were approached by NASA, to come up with some portable tools for astronauts.

Bearing in mind no gravity etc. There was a drill submitted that was “portable” very big and heavy, and ran off a large power supply. Apparently the supply didn’t last long in power, and took a very long time to charge.

So it was a commissioned item, no use whatsoever to a builder or anybody in construction or DIY. In fact no use to anybody apart from astronauts. It was still technology though.

A few year later, Makita brought to the industry, a lightweight completely cordless drill, that had a removable rechargeable battery. This had never been done before in this set up, size and design. So it was the first truly cordless drill/driver offered to the masses.
They did have the patent, and cornered the market for a few years.

So it depends on what we term as a cordless drill? The astronaut drill wasn’t marketed, as it had not much, if any use outside of the space program.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 2148
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2020, 08:06 PM »
... Makita brought to the industry, a lightweight completely cordless drill, that had a removable rechargeable battery. This had never been done before in this set up, size and design. So it was the first truly cordless drill/driver offered to the masses.
They did have the patent, and cornered the market for a few years.
So it depends on what we term as a cordless drill? The astronaut drill wasn’t marketed, as it had not much, if any use outside of the space program.
Exactly. Makita first came up with a marketable product. Just like Edison with his light bulb, which was actually invented decades before him.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7511
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2020, 12:05 AM »
I'm trying to imagine an astronaut on a space walk getting spun around by the drill as he's trying to unscrew a panel from the shuttle.

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction......something us earthlings have not experienced...but it'd be way cool to do so.  [big grin] [cool] [big grin]

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4820
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2020, 12:47 AM »
I'm trying to imagine an astronaut on a space walk getting spun around by the drill as he's trying to unscrew a panel from the shuttle.

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction......something us earthlings have not experienced...but it'd be way cool to do so.  [big grin] [cool] [big grin]

“  The first cordless power tool was unveiled by Black & Decker in 1961. In the mid-1960s, Martin Marietta Corporation contracted with Black & Decker to design tools for NASA. The tool company developed a zero-impact wrench for the Gemini project that spun bolts in zero gravity without spinning the astronaut.

AEG built “a custom-made cordless drill screwdriver for NASA Space Shuttle missions. In 1984, astronaut Bruce McCandless made use of the screwdriver on one of his spacewalks, 350km above the Earth.”
« Last Edit: June 21, 2020, 12:51 AM by Michael Kellough »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7511
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2020, 01:49 AM »
AEG built “a custom-made cordless drill screwdriver for NASA Space Shuttle missions. In 1984, astronaut Bruce McCandless made use of the screwdriver on one of his spacewalks, 350km above the Earth.”

Michael, if the subject matter is AEG...I am way impressed with their tool offerings. It's some pretty outstanding stuff. It's just too bad they were sucked up and then simply disappeared or were left to dangle and die on their own.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 1111
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #31 on: June 21, 2020, 06:14 AM »
I think it’s down to what we term as a true cordless drill?
I have seen photos of the Black and Decker NASA drill, and pictures of the first Makita cordless drill, developed for trade and DIY.

The Makita was a turning point for me after suffering a pump screwdriver for a while. Although it gave me very muscular arms, I hated it. When I bought a second Makita, it changed the way I worked, and my productive output shot up.

I wonder how I would of managed with the Black and Decker/NASA offering?  [big grin]
Right tool for the job springs to mind.

So as great as the NASA drill was to the space program, it had no use for any of us.

So for me, where it mattered most, Makita saved the day bringing a true cordless rechargeable drill to the market, covering trade, DIY and engineering etc.
If you compare the Makita to the NASA drill, they are chalk and cheese.

Some will know, that owning a true cordless drill in the 1970’s was quite a rare thing, and Makita made that possible.
I have bought a vast amount of there tools and upgraded my drills and impacts many times, and given or sold my previous fully working tools.
Hand on heart, I have never had a single issue with a Makita cordless drill/driver.
Whilst colleagues who opted for De Walt, Bosch, Milwaukee, etc etc, were often swearing at their choice of cordless drill as it failed again.

One guy who kept having Milwaukee cordless impact driver, and cordless SDS drill issues swore he’d buy no more. I suggested trying Makita, nah he said, I don’t like the colour of them???

Makita have brought out some tacky stuff, and some not so good tools, like their early multi tool, absolute rubbish, or expensive doorstop maybe. The current version isn’t great either, although a new brushless version is coming. Generally though, they make innovative and reliable tools, and cordless drills, drivers and impacts is where they excel. They are also along with Hilti a company that isn’t by corporates etc, there’s a lot to be said for that.

Changing the subject, I have always believed that Fein invented the multi tool, they are again (opinion based) the best available along with the Vecturo version.
These are the only makes I’d consider in multi tools. They are fantastic, and the power of the cordless versions is unbelievable.

So, Fein invented them, for trade and DIY mainly, or does anybody know different?

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7511
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #32 on: June 21, 2020, 09:52 AM »
So, Fein invented them, for trade and DIY mainly, or does anybody know different?

The first DIY Fein was a derivative of the tool they made for the medical field for removing/cutting plaster casts from patients.

1967



1986

Offline Banana

  • Posts: 48
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #33 on: June 21, 2020, 11:33 AM »
J.J. -

You used the word “invented”.  So my mention of Black & Decker was simply to give credit where credit was due in passing.   


Using the right tool for the right job,  Merriam / Webster Dictionary;

Invent:   to produce (something, such as a useful device or process) for the first time through the use of the imagination or of ingenious thinking and experiment.

Mass-Produced:   to produce in quantity usually by machinery.


I think the confusion derives from the details:

In ’69 Makita produced the 6500D battery drill. It was the first ‘rechargeable’ portable power tool vs ‘battery-replaceable’ or 'one time use' powered tool.  It had about a 5' power cord tethered from the two handed metal drill to the battery.

Besides B&D’s unveiling of the first cordless power tool in ’61 they also made a rotary hammer ‘drill’ for the Apollo moon program.  That program spanned from appox. ’63 to ’72.

In ’78 - Makita came out with the 6010D rechargeable drill which was the first ‘Ni-Cd’ battery tool.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2020, 11:47 AM by Banana »

Offline rst

  • Posts: 2418
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2020, 11:35 AM »
I have the air powered version from that time frame.  Somewhere!!

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6629
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2020, 12:58 PM »
You used the word “invented”.  So my mention of Black & Decker was simply to give credit where credit was due in passing.   

Meh, "invented" ...... drills existed and batteries existed. Only a matter if time till somebody connected the two together, not such a big step.

Offline xedos

  • Posts: 341
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #36 on: June 21, 2020, 04:08 PM »
It's my understanding that ol man Decker had the idea/design for a cordless drill long before NASA came a calling. 

He apparately saw the need for them in the aluminum siding biz that was all the rage after WWII.


Alex, your view is both cynical and jaded. 

Saws and straight edeges existed before Festo decided to mate the two.  Plastic and tools existed before someone decided to put the two together instead of all metal construction that was heavy and hot.

Nothing is really new , until it is.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2020, 04:12 PM by xedos »

Offline Banana

  • Posts: 48
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2020, 04:09 PM »
Meh, "invented" ...... drills existed and batteries existed. Only a matter if time till somebody connected the two together, not such a big step.

hmmm... I’m imagining that being used as a closing argument in a patent trial,  or replacing Neil Armstrong's famous quote "That's one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind".     Can't decide which I like best.

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 1111
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2020, 08:33 PM »
@Cheese, I thought I’d seen similar to the multi tool in my past. Being it was actually Fein who made those plaster cast cutters, I think they take the honours.

Apparently though, the first ever multi tool was designed by a Roman, obviously not electric and possibly not oscillating but, termed as a multi tool.

Other than that, I thing Fein can claim invention of the electric OMT  [wink]

@Banana the 1978 Makita was my first cordless drill bought in that year, maybe “invented” wasn’t the correct term to use but, Makita were first to introduce such a drill to the market.
Although a small drill, I think you’ll agree, it looked like a drill as we recognise them, and performed as such.

I admit I was very excited at seeing one for the first time, when working for a pal, and even more excited at actually saving up and buying my own.

It certainly brought a lot of attention and comments.

I never saw anything like it offered by any of the known power tool makers, Hilti, Elu, Bosch, AEG, De Walt, Panasonic or anybody else.
So in my chosen profession, Makita were pioneers of the cordless drill.

As I say, I have stuck with them, and find them better than any other make. They improve with every model, even the base model will more than deal with most scenarios, and apart from power, they ar so comfortable.

A fan of other brands of cordless drills might say the same but, where were they in 1978?  [scratch chin]

In honesty, I’ve noticed with the Makita models of the last few years, their only downfall is, the lovely comfy soft rubber grips and protection skin, can peel after a while. Easily glued back but, maybe something more durable would make them perfect.
They still bounce well like previous models too.

We mainly use the top end models as we use them all day every day. We’ve started using the 4 function drills lately, we’ve had them years but, started using them more lately. They’ve been around years but, many think they’re a new line.

If I could only own one cordless drill this would be it, no question.
Does drilling, hammer drilling, screw driving and impact driving. Not sure another make of this is available? There wasn’t when it was first launched, including the brushed version.

Again, that’s Makita pioneering the cordless drill.  [wink]
« Last Edit: June 21, 2020, 08:46 PM by Jiggy Joiner »

Offline Banana

  • Posts: 48
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2020, 10:41 PM »
While I have a bit of Milwaukee’s new stuff, and a ton their old usa corded stuff collecting dust, I would say regarding newer tools (limiting it to the 'colors') that if I were pressed on that matter I would admit to placing more trust in Makita.  All of the ’colors’ have hits and misses but for sure Makita makes some great cordless impacts / drills and seems to have a deeper and more diverse bench in tools.  Some of the drills (impact or otherwise), that are only available in Japan, are real standouts.  May have mentioned here that I’m keeping my eye on their new 40v stuff.

You bring up Panasonic,  owned two of their early drills and really wished they still had more of a presence in N.A.   Would like to know from anyone who is using their current stuff how it stacks up these days. 

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 1111
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #40 on: June 22, 2020, 06:36 AM »
While I have a bit of Milwaukee’s new stuff, and a ton their old usa corded stuff collecting dust, I would say regarding newer tools (limiting it to the 'colors') that if I were pressed on that matter I would admit to placing more trust in Makita.  All of the ’colors’ have hits and misses but for sure Makita makes some great cordless impacts / drills and seems to have a deeper and more diverse bench in tools.  Some of the drills (impact or otherwise), that are only available in Japan, are real standouts.  May have mentioned here that I’m keeping my eye on their new 40v stuff.

You bring up Panasonic,  owned two of their early drills and really wished they still had more of a presence in N.A.   Would like to know from anyone who is using their current stuff how it stacks up these days.

Totally agree on the Makita stuff, I have now got quite a bit of the 36v stuff as well as the 18v platform, as we’re striving for the cordless platform throughout our mobile site work.
I imagine the 40v will be as good, if not better than the 36v and with a single battery.

I just hope they continue with the 36v too, which I’m told they will, as we’re heavily invested in Makita, and so many 18v batteries, that I’ve lot count.

I have a fair collection of Festool power tools too but, they are all mains powered. I’m about to get into their cordless with the hybrid sanders but, they have a variety of battery types.

Regarding Panasonic, when I did my apprenticeship, one of the friends I made was a guy who’s father ran a carpentry business.
A few years down the line, we met up by accident, I ended up working for his father, they were Panasonic fans in a big way.
I never felt the drills looked very ergonomic but, being honest, after trying them, realised I was wrong. They were comfortable and very powerful, very expensive too.

I met again with my pal a couple of years ago, he has run the company for a long time now. He told me he still uses Panasonic, and has never had a single issue with any of their tools.

Over here, you still see Panasonic tools being used and the owners love them but, the main brands you see are De Walt, Milwaukee, Makita, Bosch, Festool, Mafell, some Metabo and then the cheap stuff.

It used to be mainly Makita and De Walt but, you now see a lot more Milwaukee and Festool too.
One thing for sure, these are great times in power tool technology, I just wish I was younger to use it more.

Offline derekcohen

  • Posts: 468
    • In The Woodshop
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #41 on: June 22, 2020, 10:28 AM »
I am curious to know how, in the world of hammer drills, the Festool DRC 18/4 holds up against the competition?

Regards from Perth

Derek

EDIT: I have the PDC, not the DRC.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 09:32 AM by derekcohen »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7511
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #42 on: June 22, 2020, 10:47 AM »
@Cheese, I thought I’d seen similar to the multi tool in my past. Being it was actually Fein who made those plaster cast cutters, I think they take the honours.

Hey @Jiggy Joiner
I have first hand experience with the cast cutting tool, as I had a leg cast removed in 1967 because of a motorcycle accident.  [smile]

I remember it was white in color but I never looked for the manufacturer name on the tool as it was a scary enough proposition to watch the doctor cutting a plaster cast off of my leg. The blade broke through the cast in several places and all it did was tickle...that was a relief.  [big grin] [big grin]

One of the first things I did when I purchased my first Fein, and it was this exact model, was to install the round metal cutting blade and try it on the palm of my hand...it still tickled.  [big grin]

« Last Edit: June 22, 2020, 03:22 PM by Cheese »

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4820
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2020, 01:24 PM »
That’s the Fein omt I have. Still haven’t upgraded unless you count an M12 version. At least the blades don’t come loose on the little red one.

Offline ben_r_

  • Posts: 1309
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #44 on: June 22, 2020, 01:57 PM »
Yea Milwaukee all the way these days. Then maybe Bosch or DeWalt depending on the models.
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 1111
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #45 on: June 22, 2020, 02:52 PM »
@Cheese Apart from you getting injured that’s a nice story. I can remember as a kid watching my pal have an arm cast removed with such a tool. When the nurse switched it on, my pal and me looked at each other wide eyed and gulping. In fact I think he shed some tears then, the nurse laughed and said don’t worry.
As soon as she got a little way in, he too giggled as it tickled so much  [big grin]
« Last Edit: June 22, 2020, 02:55 PM by Jiggy Joiner »

Offline yetihunter

  • Posts: 749
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #46 on: July 11, 2020, 10:35 PM »
I am curious to know how, in the world of hammer drills, the Festool DRC 18/4 holds up against the competition?

Regards from Perth

Derek

The PDC 18/4 is the combination hammer drill, the DRC is the drill/driver only version.  The PDC I had worked surprisingly well in brick.  It was quicker than some corded combination drills I’ve used way back (metabo, bosch, dewalt) but can’t compare to modern cordless contenders in that area as I normally purchase the non-hammer versions (DRC was not sold here).   There’s a lot of good cordless sds rotary hammers on the market, and so that’s what I lean toward for the hard stuff.    As a drill/driver it’s showing it’s age as an old Protool product.  The competition has more powerful drills at roughly the same size or a bit bigger.   It’s exquisite like the T18 and C18 but it’s also just about the same power category. 


To the op, I’d take the latest flagship Milwaukee or Makita 18v impact over any other brand. 
« Last Edit: July 11, 2020, 10:37 PM by yetihunter »

Offline derekcohen

  • Posts: 468
    • In The Woodshop
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #47 on: July 12, 2020, 09:40 AM »
Thanks for the info. I should have mentioned it was the PDC and not the DRC.

I was after something a little more powerful than my C12, which has been perfect in the workshop, where it gets light use. A lightly used PDC was offered to me cheaply and, although it seemed over-kill, I decided to go with it. It is a powerful drill, and I wondered how it held up against other impact drivers. I also wonder where someone would use the high speed end?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 4108
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #48 on: July 12, 2020, 09:48 AM »
@derekcohen High speed with the PDC is most useful when engaging the hammer drill mode.  For normal drilling, I find it a bit too fast for driving fasteners, and it can also overheat drill bits.  But I do use speed 4 when drilling pocket holes.

Thanks for the info. I should have mentioned it was the PDC and not the DRC.

I was after something a little more powerful than my C12, which has been perfect in the workshop, where it gets light use. A lightly used PDC was offered to me cheaply and, although it seemed over-kill, I decided to go with it. It is a powerful drill, and I wondered how it held up against other impact drivers. I also wonder where someone would use the high speed end?

Regards from Perth

Derek
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Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1373
  • formerly @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #49 on: July 12, 2020, 10:06 AM »
Thanks for the info. I should have mentioned it was the PDC and not the DRC.

I was after something a little more powerful than my C12, which has been perfect in the workshop, where it gets light use. A lightly used PDC was offered to me cheaply and, although it seemed over-kill, I decided to go with it. It is a powerful drill, and I wondered how it held up against other impact drivers. I also wonder where someone would use the high speed end?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hi,

the PDC is a percussion drill (with hammering switched on), not an impact driver. Impact blows on the PDC are axial, not tangential (impact driver/wrench).

I use the 4th gear with Festool CE Stone drill bits for drilling into masonry. Most of the time hammer/percussion mode switched off. No overheating with the CE Stone drill bits.

It's also useful for small diameter drilling, 2, 3 & 4mm with HSS drill bits into wood.

Not at all for driving screws/bolts.

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7511
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #50 on: July 12, 2020, 11:09 AM »

It's also useful for small diameter drilling, 2, 3 & 4mm with HSS drill bits into wood.


If you look at a typical speed chart for drilling wood with HSS twist drills, for drill diameters from 1/16" - 3/16" (1.5 mm - 5 mm) the recommended rpm is in the 3500-3000 range. Perfect for the PDC in 4th gear.

Brad point drills require about 1/2 of that speed.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6629
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #51 on: July 12, 2020, 11:29 AM »
If you look at a typical speed chart for drilling wood with HSS twist drills, for drill diameters from 1/16" - 3/16" (1.5 mm - 5 mm) the recommended rpm is in the 3500-3000 range. Perfect for the PDC in 4th gear.

The high RPM of the PDC is very nice to work with.

But I don't understand why such a high RPM is recommended, my T15 at 1500 RPM manages just fine with any size drill up to 12 mm in any material.

Offline Cypren

  • Posts: 35
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #52 on: July 12, 2020, 06:04 PM »
For what it's worth, the Pro Tool Reviews site has the most comprehensive tool shoot-outs I've seen if you're wondering how the various brands stack up for particular tools. They're good about providing all of the test result data as well as commenting on the subjective aspects so you can make your own decision instead of just relying on a single subjective review score from them.

Here's their guide for hammer drill/drivers: https://www.protoolreviews.com/buying-guides/best-cordless-hammer-drill-head-to-head-review/45247/

Overall, they gave the nod to DeWalt as having the best-performing drill in the heavy-duty class by a hair, but note that all of the contenders in that category are essentially equivalent. The Festool PDC 18 was a bit of an interesting case; by the manufacturer's claimed specs, it falls into their light-duty category, but its performance in the tests caused them to re-class it as a medium-duty drill. In that category, its performance was inconsistent: it had the worst performance under load in the wood-drilling tests but the best performance in the concrete-drilling test by a large margin. (As they note in the detailed review of the PDC, its performance in concrete drilling was so far ahead of the rest of the pack that they re-tested it several times to make sure it wasn't a fluke.) They dinged it very heavily for value -- a fair knock, since it's about 3-4x the price of most of its competitors -- but also note if you read their stand-alone review that the build quality and polish level of the tool are a cut above everything else in the pack.

Offline JimD

  • Posts: 455
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #53 on: July 12, 2020, 09:07 PM »
I have the M12 Surge and I like it.  I have never used the Festool impact.  My only other 1/4 impact is a Ryobi which works OK but differently than the Milwaukee.  The Surge has several levels of torque.  If you turn it down, you have to beat on it a bit to strip out a smaller screw.  If you turn it up, you can easily drive a 3 inch screw.  I'm used to backing off on little screws once the impacts start but I think Milwaukee's way of doing it is better.  I am just not completely used to it yet.  (My most recent usage was on my dock and I use the Ryobi there just in case it gets dropped)

Offline yetihunter

  • Posts: 749
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #54 on: July 13, 2020, 12:03 AM »
If you look at a typical speed chart for drilling wood with HSS twist drills, for drill diameters from 1/16" - 3/16" (1.5 mm - 5 mm) the recommended rpm is in the 3500-3000 range. Perfect for the PDC in 4th gear.

The high RPM of the PDC is very nice to work with.

But I don't understand why such a high RPM is recommended, my T15 at 1500 RPM manages just fine with any size drill up to 12 mm in any material.

@derekcohen would know this answer better as he is a humble woodworking master but the smaller drills you go fast in metal to get them through as fast as possible before you get work hardening of the material and the big bits you go slow to minimize work hardening (this has to do with heat dissipation and size of drill) for wood drilling with HSS and regular ol’ tool steel the recommendations are similar to protect the drills themselves from the heat.  These recommendations work out nicely as it obviously takes longer to drill a hole the larger you go.  At least that’s as far as I know.  I won’t get mad if I’m told I’m misinformed.


Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7511
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #55 on: July 13, 2020, 01:10 AM »
I was going to answer this question from @Alex earlier but then life got in the way.  [tongue]

This phenomenon started for me when I was breaking 3/32" drill bits when drilling hard maple with a cordless drill. Specifically the CXS...which only spins up to 1300 rpm. I determined that I was putting undue pressure and more importantly a side load on the drill bit because it was drilling so slowly.

In order to prove this I installed the same Milwaukee 3/32" drill bit in the drill press and turned the speed up to 1200 rpm. The drill bit drilled the hole without breaking but it was a slow process and it needed a lot of pressure to complete the task. I determined that because there was no side load from the drill press, that was the reason the drill bit didn't break.

This result got me to look up drill speed tables for twist drills in wood and I was surprised at the results. A 3/32" twist drill was supposed to revolve at 3000 rpm for max efficiency.

I thus changed the speed on the drill press to 2800 rpm (max speed) and was amazed at how much easier the drill penetrated the hard maple.

This has completely changed my work process. I now use the CXS for installing screws and drilling larger holes while smaller holes are drilled with a Milwaukee cordless that will spin up to 1800 rpm.

At 1800 rpm I'm no longer breaking drill bits. It would be interesting to be able to ramp the speed up to 3000 rpm and to evaluate the results. However, I don't own a PDC.

This is just one of the reasons I'd suggest that Festool update the CXS, it's extremely long in the tooth and would dramatically become a better drill if it was updated to current competitive drill specifications. It was the best of the best when it was released but that was 8-10 years ago, that's a long time ago.  [sad] [sad] [sad]
« Last Edit: July 13, 2020, 01:41 AM by Cheese »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7511
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #56 on: July 13, 2020, 02:04 AM »
...you go fast in metal to get them through as fast as possible before you get work hardening of the material and the big bits you go slow to minimize work hardening (this has to do with heat dissipation and size of drill) for wood drilling with HSS and regular ol’ tool steel the recommendations are similar to protect the drills themselves from the heat.  These recommendations work out nicely as it obviously takes longer to drill a hole the larger you go.  At least that’s as far as I know.  I won’t get mad if I’m told I’m misinformed.

That's really not a concern with common cold/hot rolled steel but it is absolutely a problem with stainless. That's the reason you want to use cobalt drills on stainless. Feed the drill quickly into the stainless without producing too much heat, never let it dwell. Get in and get out. Attacking stainless is a better method than approaching it slowly. As soon as the drill bit dwells on the stainless for 2-3 seconds, it becomes work hardened and you've then got to break through the work-hardened strata which sometimes requires a carbide end mill.  [tongue] [tongue]
« Last Edit: July 13, 2020, 02:15 AM by Cheese »

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4820
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #57 on: July 13, 2020, 09:39 AM »
Long ago I used a high speed 1/4” corded drill in the shop for pilot holes. No load speed was 4K but it probably slowed close to 3k in use. When I bought my first 1/4 hex impact driver (Hitachi, around 1986) it was used for pilot holes, even though hex shanked drill bits are only fair to poor quality, or too short (Milwaukee).

Now I have a really sweet Metabo 18v drill that spins 4K. Using that for pilot holes is like simply injecting holes in wood. Push the button and it’s done. Except in very resinous stuff. Then the debris clogs the flutes (if the hole is deep) and the bit can’t eat anymore.

Offline rst

  • Posts: 2418
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #58 on: July 13, 2020, 09:44 AM »
I furnished plastic to a stainless manufacturer, he taught me to jog the bit with high pressure to avoid bit destruction.

Offline yetihunter

  • Posts: 749
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #59 on: July 13, 2020, 08:43 PM »

Now I have a really sweet Metabo 18v drill that spins 4K. Using that for pilot holes is like simply injecting holes in wood. Push the button and it’s done. Except in very resinous stuff. Then the debris clogs the flutes (if the hole is deep) and the bit can’t eat anymore.

It helps that while in 4k rpm, it has more torque than the similar Fein ASCM 18 and Festool PDC on their slowest setting. I would know, I've owned all three.  [big grin]

Offline JonathanJung

  • Posts: 59
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    • Timberlight Designs
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #60 on: July 23, 2020, 11:10 AM »
M12 Surge is a winner! Small, light, and drives large screws home without an issue. Plus it fits in my tool vest pocket perfectly. The M18 Surge is nice, but gets 10% the usage of the M12 Surge. Can't comment on the Festool, but I am sure it will be good.

With you on this.

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Offline JonathanJung

  • Posts: 59
  • www.timberlightdesigns.com
    • Timberlight Designs
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #61 on: July 23, 2020, 11:11 AM »
The Milwaukee impacts are powerful but the variable speed trigger isn't that variable and eventually starts working intermittently.  After a year of daily site use the brushless motors seem to give up the ghost as well.  At least in Canada Milwaukee will not honor the warranty if the impact shows signs of excessive use (they consider it abused).   Therefore if it's a shop drill you shouldn't have a problem with the warranty but a site drill essentially doesn't have one.

I ended up switching from Milwaukee to Hilti after getting frustrated with the unreliable trigger and lack of warranty.  I'm also invested in the Festool battery platform so I'll be getting a Festool impact once they are released.

I use my Milwaukee impacts daily, both on site and in the shop. The M18 Surge had problems, sent it in with free call tag, was fixed for free, and sent back for free.

Offline JonathanJung

  • Posts: 59
  • www.timberlightdesigns.com
    • Timberlight Designs
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #62 on: July 23, 2020, 11:12 AM »
I run a mix of Milwaukee and Festool around the house and for impacts, I have both the M12 and M18 Surge Milwaukees.  They are super quiet and the drive speed and control is much better than anything else I have used. I have the Fuel non-surge impact and I use it only once in a while if the surge cant drive something (very rarely can it not).

I have tried the Festool drills in a couple varieties and I do not like them for some reason.

With you on how quiet the Surge are. Anyone around me comments on how quiet they are and that's nice for working around others. I would definitely try the Festool first and see if it's loud.

Offline JonathanJung

  • Posts: 59
  • www.timberlightdesigns.com
    • Timberlight Designs
Re: Festool or Milwaukee Impact driver?
« Reply #63 on: July 23, 2020, 11:13 AM »
Sale had me spend a little more than I anticipated.  Ended getting the surge plus grinder, 8 and 6 ah starter kit, and sawzall 🙄

They will get you! Enjoy.