Author Topic: Debating tablesaw...  (Read 4964 times)

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Offline egmiii

  • Posts: 213
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2021, 07:41 AM »
@JeremyH. Have you considered a Hammer K3 31" x 31"? Personally, I'd consider a 48" slider at a minimum, but if space is tight, this is a great option. They come up used every now and then. If you call Felder, they sometimes have a demo unit at a reduced price, or at the very least, can offer you a decent discount on a new one. If repeatable precision is what you are looking for, sliders deliver.

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Offline JeremyH.

  • Posts: 316
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2021, 08:13 AM »
When you push a lot of sheet good through a tablesaw you get use to it IMO. The end product if the side started straight would be imperceptibly different from other pieces cut to the same size. As long as you can push it through up against the fence that was my experience.

However that doesn't mean the tablesaw started that way. You have to measure and adjust it all to be JUST right against engineered squares etc. And you have to be comfortable with the weight of sheet goods etc. People like sliding cabinet saws and for crosscuts they're the best thing ever, but for rip cuts if you know what you're doing and your outfeed is big enough... you can push those things through as fast as you can get them on the table.


The TSO parallel guides look realllllllyyyy nice... that with a TSO square and Festool track are gaining appeal.
CXS;RO150;ETS EC 125/3 EQ;CT26e  KSS400;MT55cc;DDF 40

Offline JeremyH.

  • Posts: 316
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2021, 08:22 AM »
@JeremyH. Have you considered a Hammer K3 31" x 31"? Personally, I'd consider a 48" slider at a minimum, but if space is tight, this is a great option. They come up used every now and then. If you call Felder, they sometimes have a demo unit at a reduced price, or at the very least, can offer you a decent discount on a new one. If repeatable precision is what you are looking for, sliders deliver.

I would love one but they don't exactly make mobile bases for them. Maybe some day.
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Offline egmiii

  • Posts: 213

Offline JeremyH.

  • Posts: 316
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2021, 08:32 AM »
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Offline egmiii

  • Posts: 213
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #35 on: April 21, 2021, 08:38 AM »
Actually it is. The machine rests on the chassis when parked. What isn't shown is a wheeled lifting bar that is used to elevate the machine onto the 2 plastic wheels shown in the previous link. Trust me, it works. I have the exact same setup on my Felder bandsaw and have personally used this carriage in the showroom while evaluating the K3. It works very well.

Offline Tom Gensmer

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  • Residential Remodeler in Minnesota
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #36 on: April 21, 2021, 08:55 AM »
Actually it is. The machine rests on the chassis when parked. What isn't shown is a wheeled lifting bar that is used to elevate the machine onto the 2 plastic wheels shown in the previous link. Trust me, it works. I have the exact same setup on my Felder bandsaw and have personally used this carriage in the showroom while evaluating the K3. It works very well.

I can confirm this, Felder uses the same hardware pack for the rolling carriage for all of their Hammer machines, and a separate hardware kit for the Felder machines (at least for the 500 and 700 series). Not linked is the lifting bar, found here: https://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/en-US/Sawing/Accessories/Rolling-carriages/Lifting-bar.html?force_sid=h33a674hc2hvo74b8c33gsgtr7

 I have the equivalent setup on my KF700, and find it quite easy/convenient to shift my machine around the Shop as I dial-in its final location. I have the Hammer rolling carriage on my A3-41, and a similar setup on my Laguna LT14SUV. I happen to really like this style of mobile base/"rolling carriage", and prefer it to the more common configuration of a frame with wheels.
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Offline JeremyH.

  • Posts: 316
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #37 on: April 21, 2021, 09:29 AM »
Cool.

I doubt I'll be able to get one though, still, at least anytime soon.
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Offline egmiii

  • Posts: 213
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #38 on: April 21, 2021, 11:08 AM »
I hear you. It's not a good fit for most hobbyists, mainly because of cost and the space required for larger sliders. But they sure are sweet if your budget and shop allows for it.

I like my TS55 for sheet goods up to 3/4". Complete game changer. But it's very underpowered for edging 8/4 slabs. I've also never been successful at long miter cuts. That's where the slider really shines.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 5228
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #39 on: April 21, 2021, 01:50 PM »
When you push a lot of sheet good through a tablesaw you get use to it IMO. The end product if the side started straight would be imperceptibly different from other pieces cut to the same size. As long as you can push it through up against the fence that was my experience.

However that doesn't mean the tablesaw started that way. You have to measure and adjust it all to be JUST right against engineered squares etc. And you have to be comfortable with the weight of sheet goods etc. People like sliding cabinet saws and for crosscuts they're the best thing ever, but for rip cuts if you know what you're doing and your outfeed is big enough... you can push those things through as fast as you can get them on the table.


The TSO parallel guides look realllllllyyyy nice... that with a TSO square and Festool track are gaining appeal.

And if the edge you put against the fence is straight to start with the fresh cut will be straight and parallel too. So, either you put a fresh straight cut on the panel with a tracksaw or you use a huge slider and make it straight.

You are right about the TSO kit but if I were you I’d get a small tablesaw before investing that much money in additional tracksaw stuff.

Offline JeremyH.

  • Posts: 316
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #40 on: April 21, 2021, 03:29 PM »
I'm leaning that way. I'm considering that some places let you make payments since I need a bit of cash flow at the moment. My life is complciated [huh]. However I'd like to do a down payment. I might be able to sneak a 220v...

We'll see, maybe I'll be able to accomplish what I want. As long as I don't buy so much plywood I could have bought a tablesaw...

The TSO's really do look nice. They have the benefit to push into place. If you can measure the exact track width to cut, you can be right on. (as opposed to meeting the line)
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Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 8589
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #41 on: April 21, 2021, 04:22 PM »
I'm constructing drawer fronts and decided to take the 6 fronts and measure the widths on both ends with a dial caliper. The fronts are numbered because of a matching grain that goes across the front of each.

The fronts were initially ripped with a MT 55 on a Mafell rail. They were ripped to the final width using the same combination but making sure the Mafell rail was clamped securely on both ends.

I just measured each end, wrote the dimension on the back, stacked the fronts and took the photo. Nothing funny going on here.  [smile]

1...7.004"/7.004"
2...7.005"/7.012"
3...7.006"/7.008"
4...6.996"/6.996"
5...6.999"/7.001"
6...7.002"/6.996"

Having previously known how similar the widths were, that's the reason for my comment last evening "I'm just having a difficult time understanding this situation."




Offline JeremyH.

  • Posts: 316
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2021, 04:30 PM »
I'm constructing drawer fronts and decided to take the 6 fronts and measure the widths on both ends with a dial caliper. The fronts are numbered because of a matching grain that goes across the front of each.

The fronts were initially ripped with a MT 55 on a Mafell rail. They were ripped to the final width using the same combination but making sure the Mafell rail was clamped securely on both ends.

I just measured each end, wrote the dimension on the back, stacked the fronts and took the photo. Nothing funny going on here.  [smile]

1...7.004"/7.004"
2...7.005"/7.012"
3...7.006"/7.008"
4...6.996"/6.996"
5...6.999"/7.001"
6...7.002"/6.996"

Having previously known how similar the widths were, that's the reason for my comment last evening "I'm just having a difficult time understanding this situation."

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

The problem may just be me. How do you meet your mark? And type of mark?

If you stack two on top of each other do they feel essentially seamless? My experience with a tight box is if they don't you might be in for surprise.
CXS;RO150;ETS EC 125/3 EQ;CT26e  KSS400;MT55cc;DDF 40

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 8589
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #43 on: April 21, 2021, 05:08 PM »
How do you meet your mark? And type of mark?

If you stack two on top of each other do they feel essentially seamless? My experience with a tight box is if they don't you might be in for surprise.

I use a pair of double squares off of the REAR of the rail, that way it's a positive stop and I'm not trying to negotiate pencil lines, pencil line widths or parallax errors. No sneaking up to anything just hard stops, that way a lot of variables are removed.  [smile]








Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 5228
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #44 on: April 21, 2021, 05:27 PM »
“I use a pair of double squares off of the REAR of the rail”

So what happened with #2?  [poke]  Maybe the rail shifted when the clamp was tightened?

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2704
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #45 on: April 21, 2021, 05:51 PM »
I finished cutting some parts last week on my SawStop PCS, and in light of Cheese's photos, took the widths of those pieces:

3 out of 4: 152.20; the odd-man out: 152.30mm.

Someone pointed out that many table saw users struggled with the blade/fence alignment issue. That's a fair statement because many users own a contractor saw or an average cabinet saw. The SawStop cabinet saws are a different animal. Simply go to other woodworking forums where the SawStop is discussed, and almost every owner shares the same kind of experience with regard to its degree of precision. People whine about its prices, but (almost) none about its quality.

Granted, it's easier to handle large sheet goods with a track saw system. But anything 4x6 or under can be accurately and precisely milled to any spec. on a SawStop cabinet saw -- esp. if the Jessem Stock Guides is also used. I say 4x6 because that's the largest piece I've worked with on my PCS. My car can't take a 4x8 sheet.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2021, 07:20 PM by ChuckM »

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 2401
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #46 on: April 21, 2021, 05:56 PM »
“I use a pair of double squares off of the REAR of the rail”
So what happened with #2?  [poke]  Maybe the rail shifted when the clamp was tightened?
This is a disaster, Cheese!!! Unacceptable!!!  [mad]  I can't watch  [scared] [poke]
« Last Edit: April 21, 2021, 05:59 PM by Svar »

Offline mino

  • Posts: 496
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #47 on: April 21, 2021, 06:01 PM »
I'm constructing drawer fronts and decided to take the 6 fronts and measure the widths on both ends with a dial caliper. The fronts are numbered because of a matching grain that goes across the front of each.

The fronts were initially ripped with a MT 55 on a Mafell rail. They were ripped to the final width using the same combination but making sure the Mafell rail was clamped securely on both ends.

I just measured each end, wrote the dimension on the back, stacked the fronts and took the photo. Nothing funny going on here.  [smile]

1...7.004"/7.004"
2...7.005"/7.012"
3...7.006"/7.008"
4...6.996"/6.996"
5...6.999"/7.001"
6...7.002"/6.996"

Having previously known how similar the widths were, that's the reason for my comment last evening "I'm just having a difficult time understanding this situation."
That is about 0.01" variance.
In line what I have seen from rails over shorter rips like this when pencil marked or with ad-hoc contraptions. You can get better with the TSO PGS by 2x or so, and that is about it as the rail straightness will limit you beyond that.

One note, you are measuring thickness here only. When making boxes you need to account also for the straightness of the cut for which one needs an engineer's straight edge. It is likely to be in the same accuracy ballpark over a short span anyway but over 2 meters it can make a difference at times.
The Machine does not have a brain. Use Yours!
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Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 8589
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #48 on: April 21, 2021, 10:31 PM »
“I use a pair of double squares off of the REAR of the rail”

So what happened with #2?  [poke]  Maybe the rail shifted when the clamp was tightened?

And you're exactly right Michael, I do think I was not careful enough when I applied the pressure to the clamps. Those clamps move the rail ever so slightly and I know it's more of a problem with the Mafell rails than the Festool rails because of the difference in materials they use for the anti-slip strips.

Interestingly enough, when I first ripped these drawer fronts I noticed a .020"-.025" difference in width between one of the fronts and all of the others. Initially it really annoyed me because I knew i could do better, but I just let it go because I realized it would not be visible from more than 6" away...if that.

So what's interesting now, is that even though there was an initial difference of .020"-.025" in widths, after edge sanding with the Festool Positioning Aid, the difference in widths is now down to .016". So while we all aspire to perfection, even if perfection is achieved...we may not be aware of it because the nits we're picking are so small.

Caution...this applies to woodworking projects only...metalworking is still worth picking nits.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 496
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #49 on: April 22, 2021, 02:18 AM »
Yep, more accurate cuts are made without clamps even with the the FS/2 system. Avoids additional lateral forces.

This is where the various parallel guides get the edge - by avoiding both a need to mark and the need to clamp.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2021, 02:21 AM by mino »
The Machine does not have a brain. Use Yours!
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 376, 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2400, GECKO, GRS 16 PE, GRS 16 PE

Offline JeremyH.

  • Posts: 316
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #50 on: April 22, 2021, 01:48 PM »
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Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2704
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #51 on: April 22, 2021, 02:00 PM »
The Powermatic model PM 2000 is a solid, above-average and quality cabinet saw, miles apart from a contractor saw.

Offline JeremyH.

  • Posts: 316
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #52 on: April 22, 2021, 06:53 PM »
How hard is it to collapse it to just the base size?
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Online thudchkr

  • Posts: 176
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #53 on: April 22, 2021, 11:17 PM »
How hard is it to collapse it to just the base size?

Typically not too bad. Front rail easy enough to take off. The outfeed table is more of an unknown. Nice item to have and probably just bolted on as well. Table on the right is also bolted in place. None of those fasteners are very hard to get at.

I wouldn’t remove the cast iron wings because removing them doesn’t make it that much smaller, but if you do, you’ll just have to make sure they align when reinstalled.

I’ve been using mine for many, many years and have never had any issues with it. I replaced the Accu-fence with the Incra TS-LS, that I later converted to metric. The stock fence is decent but I’m much happier with the Incra.

I’m sure you’d be happy with it.
Clint

Offline JeremyH.

  • Posts: 316
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #54 on: April 23, 2021, 01:26 PM »
It sold already  [sad]
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Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2704
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #55 on: April 23, 2021, 01:41 PM »
Like houses, good machines sell quickly in this pandemic time. Many properties in my neighborhood are sold within a few weeks after they're listed.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 8589
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #56 on: April 23, 2021, 01:57 PM »
Like houses, good machines sell quickly in this pandemic time. Many properties in my neighborhood are sold within a few weeks after they're listed.

In my neighborhood, tools are sold within hours and houses are sold within days thanks to Covid 19.

Offline rvieceli

  • Posts: 1451
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #57 on: April 23, 2021, 02:34 PM »
What Cheese said. Plus that saw was reasonably priced and single phase. Higher HP 3 phase equipment may last a little longer, depending on where it is listed. For example, 2-3 HP 3 phase motors can usually be run off a VFD while 10 HP 3 phase usually needs a 20HP rotary phase converter or utility company 3 phase.

Generally speaking, if you want stuff, you can't take too much time making up your mind.

Ron

Offline rvieceli

  • Posts: 1451
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #58 on: April 23, 2021, 03:02 PM »
@JeremyH. You didn't mention how much space you have available. But to completely get this thread off the rails [eek]

There is a lovely Euro slider for sale on Facebook marketplace in Moscow Idaho for 1500. Looks to be in decent shape. It's a Casadei KS 3000 made in Italy.

It is a lot of saw for what it's listed at. But that's also the problem it is a LOT of saw. But if you have the room , it probably wouldn't take a lot of effort to get it up and running.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/279365480334976/?ref=search&referral_code=marketplace_search&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3A71904368-3c4a-4496-a618-b70897f7f29f

Ron

Offline JeremyH.

  • Posts: 316
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #59 on: April 23, 2021, 03:32 PM »
The one I was looking at was two phase. I don't have three phase power. Man I screwed up not getting that. Kicking myself now.

I was going to borrow a Delta contractor (the old good one) and buy Incra fence but Incra is 18-22 weeks out (what a waste of time)

I don't have Facebook, and I wouldn't sign up if you gave me a Felder saw. Maybe you can sign up for just the market place? I'll check.

Space is somewhat limited to wheels etc is preferred.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2021, 03:42 PM by JeremyH. »
CXS;RO150;ETS EC 125/3 EQ;CT26e  KSS400;MT55cc;DDF 40