Author Topic: Debating tablesaw...  (Read 5394 times)

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Offline JeremyH.

  • Posts: 320
Debating tablesaw...
« on: April 19, 2021, 07:41 PM »
I don't have access to a woodshop any longer. I've been collecting my own tools.

I need some precision for making boxes however. Right now I have rules and a Benchdog parallel thing for Mafell tracks. I can't seem to cut two identical panels. They're plenty good enough for something like cabinet side panels, but not when I need them to be identical. Maybe if I switched to festool tracks so I could use their parallel guides? I feel like I'm burning money here however.

If I were to get a a sub $2k tablesaw I don't really know how good the fences are. Now I know what using a Unisaw with the high grade Delta fence + rails is like... perfect everytime, but I have no idea with all these MDF fence things other saws come with.

Also do I just cap the dust extraction then vacuum it out with my Festool vac when done?  [tongue]
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Offline afish

  • Posts: 599
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2021, 08:03 PM »
That was my method for cabinets pre CNC.  Table saw to rip consistently parallel panels. Then I would crosscut everything that was to wide for a reasonably sized crosscut sled (mostly base cabinets and pantry depth) uppers and drawers would usually be done on the table saw and sled.  I would check the used market for a unisaw you used to be able to get a good condition unisaw for 800-1000 not sure where prices are now but that was pretty common pre covid.  Its pretty hard to kill those saws so used is the way to go.  I would much rather have a used unisaw than a new contractor version.  If things go south you can probably recoup most of the money on the unisaw even years later. 

Offline JeremyH.

  • Posts: 320
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2021, 08:15 PM »
I'm afraid the Mafell tracks don't keep perfectly straight at lengths over a couple feet.. They are narrower than Festool tracks, but have superior splinter guards. I could get a Festool track and the guides... but that's like a 1/3 of a tablesaw.

When I say contractor tablesaw I mean Sawstop or Powermatic. The Delta new contractor saw is garbage. The older generation comes up for sale sometimes and is really pretty good but doesn't usually have the extension with the unisaw fence setup. With it, you're pretty well good to go. I don't own a truck so used presents some challenges. I also don't have anyone who can help me unload if I rent a HD truck... kind of a pain. My brother should be around in less than a month though who does have a truck and might be available once in awhile.

There's a chance maybe I can get good enough with what I have but it's really hard to calc it out perfectly. Drawing a line and hitting it perfectly just isn't very realistic. Maybe if I fake having parallel guides I could get closer, by measuring the track width and adding that to whatever I measure.

My Woodpecker rule seems fine but the stop thing that goes on it doesn't usually go perfectly across so I do it by eyeball but then I'm not sure that really works either. Measuring off of one side might still be best but that leaves you with a line instead of a measured cut distance.
CXS;RO150;ETS EC 125/3 EQ;CT26e  KSS400;MT55cc;DDF 40

Offline afish

  • Posts: 599
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2021, 08:30 PM »
picked my unisaw up with a motorcycle trailer from U-haul for $15 for the day if you dont have something with a trailer hitch you can rent a truck if you have a U-haul close.  I used to keep a trailer but I have a u-haul a mile down the road.  I didnt have the room to store the trailer so now I just run down a grab one from them.  The motorcycle trailer is great since it has a ramp and is low so its pretty easy to unload things single handed.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 5274
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2021, 09:15 PM »
Are the boxes you want to make smaller than cabinet panels?

You don’t have a shop so you are willing to buy a serious tablesaw saw or you aren’t?

If the stuff you need to rip is smaller than cabinet parts and you don’t have room for a real tablesaw then a small universal motor tablesaw (that has a decent fence) will work and it will cost less than buying a Festool rail and parallel guide stuff.

The small Dewalt tablesaw will do and if you connect the vac to the dust port from the start there will be way less dust escaping than you seem to expect. That small saw is designed for dust collection. With the old big iron it’s an add-on that works fairly well with a big dust collector and poorly with a shop vac.

With a universal motor you would need to get the best hearing protection you can find.

Offline rvieceli

  • Posts: 1516
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2021, 10:19 PM »
I’d also suggest looking to the used market. I’m partial to Powermatic. PM66s are great saws. 10 inch on the 66, 12 inch on the 70, 14 on the 72

I’ve got a PM66 that rolled out to a dealer in 1969. Works wonderfully. The things are built like tanks. Other than the motor, there are only two readily available bearings in the arbor. They are easy to work on.

Ron

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 2867
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2021, 10:33 PM »
IF you decide to get (read: invest in) a table saw, get a SawStop PCS -- new or used. Its footprint is close to the contractor model

There're many threads in this forum about finding a way to replace a table saw or to do some of the tasks that a table saw excels at. Go over them.

They will help you realize that, unless your plan for the future is to handle mostly sheet goods, build cabinets with them, etc., track saws, mft tables and what not (including all kinds of pricey gadgets and accessories) can't replace a good cabinet saw. I know of not one single serious or productive furniture maker where I live -- hobbyist or one doing it for a living -- who doesn't own a cabinet saw or a sliding saw.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2021, 10:36 PM by ChuckM »

Offline JeremyH.

  • Posts: 320
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2021, 07:35 AM »
It would be unrealistic to dive into anything that needs more than 110v~ at the moment.

I'm not sure that there is a way around it, I may have to just stick with what I got for the moment. But if I can't get much better results my Duo Doweller is DOA for projects where the cuts aren't good enough.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2021, 03:47 PM by JeremyH. »
CXS;RO150;ETS EC 125/3 EQ;CT26e  KSS400;MT55cc;DDF 40

Offline jaguar36

  • Posts: 236
    • Toolamanjaro.com
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2021, 07:49 AM »
I'd say its more a question of space more than anything.   If you're tight on space get the Festool tracks, parallel guides and a MFT or two.  Rip the sheets with the parallel guides to width, then crosscut them with the fence on the MFT to length.  With the guides and the stops on the MFT you should easily get consistent results.

If you've got the room a good used table saw that has a quality fence can be had pretty cheaply.  Older powermatics and deltas show up all the time but you'll likely have to do some legwork finding a good one and getting it picked up.  Or you can get a new Sawstop PCS.

Course if you've got the money, the best is  to rip the sheets with the track saw on the STM1800, cross cut em on the MFT, then use a tablesaw for the dado's.  Spendy for all that though.

Offline Wayne CW

  • Posts: 39
  • Wayne
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2021, 11:45 AM »
I don't have access to a woodshop any longer. I've been collecting my own tools.

I need some precision for making boxes however. Right now I have rules and a Benchdog parallel thing for Mafell tracks. I can't seem to cut two identical panels. They're plenty good enough for something like cabinet side panels, but not when I need them to be identical. Maybe if I switched to festool tracks so I could use their parallel guides? I feel like I'm burning money here however.

If I were to get a a sub $2k tablesaw I don't really know how good the fences are. Now I know what using a Unisaw with the high grade Delta fence + rails is like... perfect everytime, but I have no idea with all these MDF fence things other saws come with.

Also do I just cap the dust extraction then vacuum it out with my Festool vac when done?  [tongue]

Makita tracks are cheaper and your Mafell will work on them.
"There is always something new to learn and old age isn't an excuse to quit."

Offline Wayne CW

  • Posts: 39
  • Wayne
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2021, 11:54 AM »
I don't have access to a woodshop any longer. I've been collecting my own tools.

I need some precision for making boxes however. Right now I have rules and a Benchdog parallel thing for Mafell tracks. I can't seem to cut two identical panels. They're plenty good enough for something like cabinet side panels, but not when I need them to be identical. Maybe if I switched to festool tracks so I could use their parallel guides? I feel like I'm burning money here however.

If I were to get a a sub $2k tablesaw I don't really know how good the fences are. Now I know what using a Unisaw with the high grade Delta fence + rails is like... perfect everytime, but I have no idea with all these MDF fence things other saws come with.

Also do I just cap the dust extraction then vacuum it out with my Festool vac when done?  [tongue]

If you watch this video by Peter Millard he will show you how to make cheap guides.
"There is always something new to learn and old age isn't an excuse to quit."

Offline Packard

  • Posts: 623
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2021, 12:17 PM »
Before I got my TSO measuring arms, I used two Harbor Freight 24" combination squares for setting the rail.  It was accurate but slower than the TSO system. 

https://www.harborfreight.com/hand-tools/measuring-marking-layout/rulers-squares/24-in-combination-square-63687.html

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 2867
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2021, 01:33 PM »
My workhorse, SawStop PCS, is 1.75HP, 110V. For ripping stock over 2" thick, I use a 30T ripping blade.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 533
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2021, 04:21 PM »
Makita tracks are cheaper and your Mafell will work on them.
Their extrusion are also less accurate. They are more stiff still, but the accuracy standard is lower for them as bigger bends are accepted in production.

Upgrading from Maffel/Bosch tracks to get accuracy and messing it with Makita makes no sense.

Also the Makita splinter guard is very soft, this makes for an excellent visibility for marking but a crappy anti-splinter effect.
When the Machine does not have a brain, use Yours.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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Offline mino

  • Posts: 533
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2021, 04:32 PM »
I don't have access to a woodshop any longer. I've been collecting my own tools.

I need some precision for making boxes however. Right now I have rules and a Benchdog parallel thing for Mafell tracks. I can't seem to cut two identical panels. They're plenty good enough for something like cabinet side panels, but not when I need them to be identical. Maybe if I switched to festool tracks so I could use their parallel guides? I feel like I'm burning money here however.

If I were to get a a sub $2k tablesaw I don't really know how good the fences are. Now I know what using a Unisaw with the high grade Delta fence + rails is like... perfect everytime, but I have no idea with all these MDF fence things other saws come with.

Also do I just cap the dust extraction then vacuum it out with my Festool vac when done?  [tongue]
If you are not happy with the accuracy you get from your rails, it makes no sense to stick with them. Either fix the current system or replace it.

If you want accuracy, Maffel on Festool rails is not a good combination. You do not get the reason for the Festool rails - the teflon-coated sliders on the TS55 - which is what gives it the accuracy and smoothness. And you lose the advantages of the Maffel saw and tracks like the connector etc.

But you are better off selling the whole system - tracksaw with rails - and getting a new system - again Tracksaw with rails + the TSO GRS + PG system which are simply brilliant. Just make sure to skip the Festool rail connectors and either get the Makita ones which are non-marring or the self-aligning TSO ones.

The new TS 55 F series uses the same 1,8 mm blade kerf as Maffel which helps reduce the power difference and will allow you to keep blades.

For home/hobby use, IMO nothing beats the flexibility and accuracy of a TS 55 + 2x 1400 LR32 + TSO GRS + TSO PGS + TSO rail connectors.
When the Machine does not have a brain, use Yours.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 2x 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2400, 2x GRS 16 PE, GECKO-DOSH

Offline JeremyH.

  • Posts: 320
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2021, 04:50 PM »
Mino thank you for recommendation.

I’m OCD for wanting the best... I am going to re-examine what I have and do now to see if I can work it out better. The thing I dislike the most is not being able to push to position. Setting to position for a pencil line is a liability.

An MFT with the ability to use dogs would help with being able to probably get good 90*’s, I suspect, as MFT users say it’s bang on.

An Incra positioner attached to mafell rail is tempting but will take some interesting work.

Some day in the future Benchdogs is going to make parallel guides for Mafell.

I’m going to play with my Mafell tracks and see how much deflection they give. That may help me know what to do.
CXS;RO150;ETS EC 125/3 EQ;CT26e  KSS400;MT55cc;DDF 40

Offline JeremyH.

  • Posts: 320
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2021, 05:01 PM »
Also when I use to use Festool TS55, wrap all cuts in blue tape, or get splinters.
CXS;RO150;ETS EC 125/3 EQ;CT26e  KSS400;MT55cc;DDF 40

Offline Tom Gensmer

  • Posts: 767
  • Residential Remodeler in Minnesota
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2021, 05:15 PM »
The TSO parallel guides are the best I've come across, and there are procedures for aligning the two pins, but in my experience the most reliable way to get perfectly parallel rips is to use a table saw. The problem with parallel guides is that you're relying on two points in space, which may or may not be identical. Again, there are ways to to do this, but if you're looking for identical pieces, exactly parallel, in any sort of production capacity, you'll be better served by complementing your track saw with a table saw or a band saw.....
CT-MIDI, C-18, RO-150, RO-90, OF-1010, OF-1400, MFK-700, MFK-700EQ/B, EHL-65, DTS-400, LS-130, MFT/3 (x4), MFT/Kapex (x3), KA 65 Conturo, endless Systainers

Offline JeremyH.

  • Posts: 320
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2021, 05:35 PM »
To be clear I'm not producing anything right now except personal stuff. I have plans for a commercial item or two possibly but don't actually need a tablesaw for that first one.

I'm just another crazed hobbyist at the moment... willing to spend thousands of dollars to build things like inexpensive speakers or whatever I want  [wink]
CXS;RO150;ETS EC 125/3 EQ;CT26e  KSS400;MT55cc;DDF 40

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 2867
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2021, 06:13 PM »
Snip. hobbyist at the moment... willing to spend thousands of dollars to build things like inexpensive speakers or whatever I want  [wink]

I know several people like that including myself. If one day, you venture into hand tools, be prepared to spend more. Even one boutique plane or a set of Japanese chisels could set the budget back by a few thousand dollars, depending on who makes it. [big grin] [big grin]

Offline mino

  • Posts: 533
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2021, 06:20 PM »
...
An MFT with the ability to use dogs would help with being able to probably get good 90*’s, I suspect, as MFT users say it’s bang on.
...
Bench dogs specifically are an inherently inaccurate system. They may be good-enough and better than usig a square all the time. But they are no accuracy champs.

Once you get under the 0.005"/feet level of accuracy space, the dogs interface with the table as well as the micro-dents the softer material will get from dogs start to matter and they limit how accurate you can get no matter what. It may be good enough, but it has its inherent limits which are not present with the full-edge-interface approaches like a table saw or a PGS.

For best (portable) squareness on the market, you want something like the TSO GRS 16 with metal-on-metal connection of the square arms and even then you may want the extension "L" piece to increase the reference edge with the material. I can get <0.01" consistency per a 4' cut span with a 1400 rail and that is good enough with me. That is close to the Festool rail extrusion accuracy and better than the accuracy of common table saw fences.

A proper cabinet saw, an Erika or the Festool CS series class stuff is where you get above what a TS55 + TSO PGS can give regards accuracy.
When the Machine does not have a brain, use Yours.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 2x 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2400, 2x GRS 16 PE, GECKO-DOSH

Offline JeremyH.

  • Posts: 320
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2021, 08:38 PM »
I have this. But with out the parallel guides I'm not so sure with it. One of my panels came out well, one was not good. Still need to play with the mafell to see how much deflection it has. My experience with Festool rails was basically none.
CXS;RO150;ETS EC 125/3 EQ;CT26e  KSS400;MT55cc;DDF 40

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 8878
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2021, 09:10 PM »
I guess I'm just having a difficult time understanding this situation. I've used Mafell rails and have cut sheet goods to within a width of  .5 mm over 48".

I also use TSO guides on the Festool rails and I can duplicate those results.

I guess, the question is, is there a tolerance you need to maintain and over what length must that be maintained? That's a question that is easier to answer for the forum members.  [smile]

That answer will also determine what method would be the best for you to pursue.

Offline JeremyH.

  • Posts: 320
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2021, 09:40 PM »
I just checked and that is about the amount of deflection I can get out of the Mafell rail. It's kinda of a lot when you're doing a speaker box. I know it seems like little bit on a table saw I was use to imperceptible over 48".
CXS;RO150;ETS EC 125/3 EQ;CT26e  KSS400;MT55cc;DDF 40

Offline Banana

  • Posts: 75
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2021, 10:06 PM »
I’m afraid the Mafell tracks don't keep perfectly straight at lengths over a couple feet…

For any accurate cut I always clamp at both ends.  If you don’t wish to clamp I’ve read you can add a strip of Festool grip tape to the bottom of any Bosch / Mafell rail (meaning in addition to Mafell’s / Bosch’s own grip ribs).  There’s a single slot underneath where it fits.
I can’t see how the tracks would not be straight past “a couple feet” unless they are slipping.  Maybe clean the rubber, check your saw feed rate, if cutting atop a sacrificial surface make sure it is held securely with material as well,  etc. (?)

Every method requires some technique but like others have said a benchdog system can introduce a lot of variables if you’re relying on them to be drop in automatic precision.

Offline JeremyH.

  • Posts: 320
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2021, 10:51 PM »
When you square from one end the deflection at the other at 48 inches could be .5mm or such. That's what I'm talking about. You can pull/push to pencil marks but the small amounts of flex in the whole thing means the splinter guard has tiny amounts of variance (this is verified by the fact you can get a little bit of red bits for awhile into the use of the track).

The track however does not move when sawing. That is the one thing I've never had happen with any track as far as I can tell.
CXS;RO150;ETS EC 125/3 EQ;CT26e  KSS400;MT55cc;DDF 40

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 8878
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2021, 11:00 PM »
Well I’m an older audio guy so I can understand the need for precision.

If a speaker cabinet is leaking air, it’s also leaking sound fidelity. That’s the reason ALL JBL cabinets were constructed with a mitre lock joint for the corners.

Offline Cypren

  • Posts: 157
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2021, 04:34 AM »
For what it’s worth, I’ll also endorse the TSO squares and parallel guide sets. I did half a dozen identical 2 meter long rips with them yesterday and got a skew of 0.2mm over the length of the cut, with repeatability variance below 0.1mm across all six boards.

Getting results like this does require that you spend some effort on properly calibrating them up front: I used gauge blocks for both setting the stops and the position of the track. But once dialed in, they’re phenomenally accurate.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 533
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2021, 05:58 AM »
I guess I'm just having a difficult time understanding this situation. I've used Mafell rails and have cut sheet goods to within a width of  .5 mm over 48".
..
The FS/2 rails are about twice as stiff as the Maffel rails due to being wider. That also makes them bulkier and heavier, so it is not for free ...
After our big purchase we were comparing 2-3 rails from each make with a friend, and the Maffel and FS/2 were straight to similar accuracy while Makita ones were deviating form a straight edge about twice as much. All were new or almost-new. A small selection, but given Makita rails are 1/2 the cost it makes sense.

The sum we got was that on short cuts, FS/2 and Maffel turn out about the same with Makita trailing due to the manufacturing allowances gap.  On longer (above 5' or so) cuts the FS/2 is best, with Makita and Maffel being comparable - Makita catches up with stiffness to otherwise more accurately made Maffel rails.

I guess this is also why Maffel does not make a 3000 mm rail. The profile is too narrow for such a rail to be stable. And when one is using connectors, he will be careful to not over-stress the joint so the stiffness is adequate. But I would not connect 3x 1600 and expect good results without some secondary straightening.

Even with my FS/2 at 3000 mm, I take great care to not create lateral stresses when placing the rail. The Festool strips are very grippy on wood. With the rail freely placed on material, they can create enough lateral stress for the 3000 rail to bend by about 0.2-0.3mm on its length if you just pull on one end to move it to a mark without lifting the rail a bit. That adds to the rail inherent inaccuracy of a similar order.

It is impossible to get better without making the rails even wider which will kill portability. So do not see any maker going that way.
When the Machine does not have a brain, use Yours.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 2x 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2400, 2x GRS 16 PE, GECKO-DOSH

Offline Wayne CW

  • Posts: 39
  • Wayne
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2021, 06:55 AM »
Do you find that you are able to get complete accuracy when running long stock, be it sheet goods or boards, using a table saw? How many posts have i read on different forums of users having difficulty with blade and fence alignments on table saws. For me i have used a table saw for over 50 years and a track saw for only about 3 years and if i am working with sheet goods today it will be my track saw that i will reach for. If i had to get rid of either my table saw or track saw, it would be my table saw that would be going.

I am really enjoying the nearly dust free cuts i can get with my tracks that i can't hope to get with my table saw.
"There is always something new to learn and old age isn't an excuse to quit."

Offline egmiii

  • Posts: 216
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2021, 07:41 AM »
@JeremyH. Have you considered a Hammer K3 31" x 31"? Personally, I'd consider a 48" slider at a minimum, but if space is tight, this is a great option. They come up used every now and then. If you call Felder, they sometimes have a demo unit at a reduced price, or at the very least, can offer you a decent discount on a new one. If repeatable precision is what you are looking for, sliders deliver.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline JeremyH.

  • Posts: 320
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2021, 08:13 AM »
When you push a lot of sheet good through a tablesaw you get use to it IMO. The end product if the side started straight would be imperceptibly different from other pieces cut to the same size. As long as you can push it through up against the fence that was my experience.

However that doesn't mean the tablesaw started that way. You have to measure and adjust it all to be JUST right against engineered squares etc. And you have to be comfortable with the weight of sheet goods etc. People like sliding cabinet saws and for crosscuts they're the best thing ever, but for rip cuts if you know what you're doing and your outfeed is big enough... you can push those things through as fast as you can get them on the table.


The TSO parallel guides look realllllllyyyy nice... that with a TSO square and Festool track are gaining appeal.
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Offline JeremyH.

  • Posts: 320
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2021, 08:22 AM »
@JeremyH. Have you considered a Hammer K3 31" x 31"? Personally, I'd consider a 48" slider at a minimum, but if space is tight, this is a great option. They come up used every now and then. If you call Felder, they sometimes have a demo unit at a reduced price, or at the very least, can offer you a decent discount on a new one. If repeatable precision is what you are looking for, sliders deliver.

I would love one but they don't exactly make mobile bases for them. Maybe some day.
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Offline egmiii

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Offline JeremyH.

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Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2021, 08:32 AM »
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Offline egmiii

  • Posts: 216
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #35 on: April 21, 2021, 08:38 AM »
Actually it is. The machine rests on the chassis when parked. What isn't shown is a wheeled lifting bar that is used to elevate the machine onto the 2 plastic wheels shown in the previous link. Trust me, it works. I have the exact same setup on my Felder bandsaw and have personally used this carriage in the showroom while evaluating the K3. It works very well.

Offline Tom Gensmer

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  • Residential Remodeler in Minnesota
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #36 on: April 21, 2021, 08:55 AM »
Actually it is. The machine rests on the chassis when parked. What isn't shown is a wheeled lifting bar that is used to elevate the machine onto the 2 plastic wheels shown in the previous link. Trust me, it works. I have the exact same setup on my Felder bandsaw and have personally used this carriage in the showroom while evaluating the K3. It works very well.

I can confirm this, Felder uses the same hardware pack for the rolling carriage for all of their Hammer machines, and a separate hardware kit for the Felder machines (at least for the 500 and 700 series). Not linked is the lifting bar, found here: https://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/en-US/Sawing/Accessories/Rolling-carriages/Lifting-bar.html?force_sid=h33a674hc2hvo74b8c33gsgtr7

 I have the equivalent setup on my KF700, and find it quite easy/convenient to shift my machine around the Shop as I dial-in its final location. I have the Hammer rolling carriage on my A3-41, and a similar setup on my Laguna LT14SUV. I happen to really like this style of mobile base/"rolling carriage", and prefer it to the more common configuration of a frame with wheels.
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Offline JeremyH.

  • Posts: 320
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #37 on: April 21, 2021, 09:29 AM »
Cool.

I doubt I'll be able to get one though, still, at least anytime soon.
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Offline egmiii

  • Posts: 216
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #38 on: April 21, 2021, 11:08 AM »
I hear you. It's not a good fit for most hobbyists, mainly because of cost and the space required for larger sliders. But they sure are sweet if your budget and shop allows for it.

I like my TS55 for sheet goods up to 3/4". Complete game changer. But it's very underpowered for edging 8/4 slabs. I've also never been successful at long miter cuts. That's where the slider really shines.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 5274
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #39 on: April 21, 2021, 01:50 PM »
When you push a lot of sheet good through a tablesaw you get use to it IMO. The end product if the side started straight would be imperceptibly different from other pieces cut to the same size. As long as you can push it through up against the fence that was my experience.

However that doesn't mean the tablesaw started that way. You have to measure and adjust it all to be JUST right against engineered squares etc. And you have to be comfortable with the weight of sheet goods etc. People like sliding cabinet saws and for crosscuts they're the best thing ever, but for rip cuts if you know what you're doing and your outfeed is big enough... you can push those things through as fast as you can get them on the table.


The TSO parallel guides look realllllllyyyy nice... that with a TSO square and Festool track are gaining appeal.

And if the edge you put against the fence is straight to start with the fresh cut will be straight and parallel too. So, either you put a fresh straight cut on the panel with a tracksaw or you use a huge slider and make it straight.

You are right about the TSO kit but if I were you I’d get a small tablesaw before investing that much money in additional tracksaw stuff.

Offline JeremyH.

  • Posts: 320
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #40 on: April 21, 2021, 03:29 PM »
I'm leaning that way. I'm considering that some places let you make payments since I need a bit of cash flow at the moment. My life is complciated [huh]. However I'd like to do a down payment. I might be able to sneak a 220v...

We'll see, maybe I'll be able to accomplish what I want. As long as I don't buy so much plywood I could have bought a tablesaw...

The TSO's really do look nice. They have the benefit to push into place. If you can measure the exact track width to cut, you can be right on. (as opposed to meeting the line)
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Online Cheese

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Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #41 on: April 21, 2021, 04:22 PM »
I'm constructing drawer fronts and decided to take the 6 fronts and measure the widths on both ends with a dial caliper. The fronts are numbered because of a matching grain that goes across the front of each.

The fronts were initially ripped with a MT 55 on a Mafell rail. They were ripped to the final width using the same combination but making sure the Mafell rail was clamped securely on both ends.

I just measured each end, wrote the dimension on the back, stacked the fronts and took the photo. Nothing funny going on here.  [smile]

1...7.004"/7.004"
2...7.005"/7.012"
3...7.006"/7.008"
4...6.996"/6.996"
5...6.999"/7.001"
6...7.002"/6.996"

Having previously known how similar the widths were, that's the reason for my comment last evening "I'm just having a difficult time understanding this situation."




Offline JeremyH.

  • Posts: 320
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2021, 04:30 PM »
I'm constructing drawer fronts and decided to take the 6 fronts and measure the widths on both ends with a dial caliper. The fronts are numbered because of a matching grain that goes across the front of each.

The fronts were initially ripped with a MT 55 on a Mafell rail. They were ripped to the final width using the same combination but making sure the Mafell rail was clamped securely on both ends.

I just measured each end, wrote the dimension on the back, stacked the fronts and took the photo. Nothing funny going on here.  [smile]

1...7.004"/7.004"
2...7.005"/7.012"
3...7.006"/7.008"
4...6.996"/6.996"
5...6.999"/7.001"
6...7.002"/6.996"

Having previously known how similar the widths were, that's the reason for my comment last evening "I'm just having a difficult time understanding this situation."

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

The problem may just be me. How do you meet your mark? And type of mark?

If you stack two on top of each other do they feel essentially seamless? My experience with a tight box is if they don't you might be in for surprise.
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Online Cheese

  • Posts: 8878
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #43 on: April 21, 2021, 05:08 PM »
How do you meet your mark? And type of mark?

If you stack two on top of each other do they feel essentially seamless? My experience with a tight box is if they don't you might be in for surprise.

I use a pair of double squares off of the REAR of the rail, that way it's a positive stop and I'm not trying to negotiate pencil lines, pencil line widths or parallax errors. No sneaking up to anything just hard stops, that way a lot of variables are removed.  [smile]








Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 5274
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #44 on: April 21, 2021, 05:27 PM »
“I use a pair of double squares off of the REAR of the rail”

So what happened with #2?  [poke]  Maybe the rail shifted when the clamp was tightened?

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 2867
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #45 on: April 21, 2021, 05:51 PM »
I finished cutting some parts last week on my SawStop PCS, and in light of Cheese's photos, took the widths of those pieces:

3 out of 4: 152.20; the odd-man out: 152.30mm.

Someone pointed out that many table saw users struggled with the blade/fence alignment issue. That's a fair statement because many users own a contractor saw or an average cabinet saw. The SawStop cabinet saws are a different animal. Simply go to other woodworking forums where the SawStop is discussed, and almost every owner shares the same kind of experience with regard to its degree of precision. People whine about its prices, but (almost) none about its quality.

Granted, it's easier to handle large sheet goods with a track saw system. But anything 4x6 or under can be accurately and precisely milled to any spec. on a SawStop cabinet saw -- esp. if the Jessem Stock Guides is also used. I say 4x6 because that's the largest piece I've worked with on my PCS. My car can't take a 4x8 sheet.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2021, 07:20 PM by ChuckM »

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 2409
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #46 on: April 21, 2021, 05:56 PM »
“I use a pair of double squares off of the REAR of the rail”
So what happened with #2?  [poke]  Maybe the rail shifted when the clamp was tightened?
This is a disaster, Cheese!!! Unacceptable!!!  [mad]  I can't watch  [scared] [poke]
« Last Edit: April 21, 2021, 05:59 PM by Svar »

Offline mino

  • Posts: 533
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #47 on: April 21, 2021, 06:01 PM »
I'm constructing drawer fronts and decided to take the 6 fronts and measure the widths on both ends with a dial caliper. The fronts are numbered because of a matching grain that goes across the front of each.

The fronts were initially ripped with a MT 55 on a Mafell rail. They were ripped to the final width using the same combination but making sure the Mafell rail was clamped securely on both ends.

I just measured each end, wrote the dimension on the back, stacked the fronts and took the photo. Nothing funny going on here.  [smile]

1...7.004"/7.004"
2...7.005"/7.012"
3...7.006"/7.008"
4...6.996"/6.996"
5...6.999"/7.001"
6...7.002"/6.996"

Having previously known how similar the widths were, that's the reason for my comment last evening "I'm just having a difficult time understanding this situation."
That is about 0.01" variance.
In line what I have seen from rails over shorter rips like this when pencil marked or with ad-hoc contraptions. You can get better with the TSO PGS by 2x or so, and that is about it as the rail straightness will limit you beyond that.

One note, you are measuring thickness here only. When making boxes you need to account also for the straightness of the cut for which one needs an engineer's straight edge. It is likely to be in the same accuracy ballpark over a short span anyway but over 2 meters it can make a difference at times.
When the Machine does not have a brain, use Yours.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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Online Cheese

  • Posts: 8878
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #48 on: April 21, 2021, 10:31 PM »
“I use a pair of double squares off of the REAR of the rail”

So what happened with #2?  [poke]  Maybe the rail shifted when the clamp was tightened?

And you're exactly right Michael, I do think I was not careful enough when I applied the pressure to the clamps. Those clamps move the rail ever so slightly and I know it's more of a problem with the Mafell rails than the Festool rails because of the difference in materials they use for the anti-slip strips.

Interestingly enough, when I first ripped these drawer fronts I noticed a .020"-.025" difference in width between one of the fronts and all of the others. Initially it really annoyed me because I knew i could do better, but I just let it go because I realized it would not be visible from more than 6" away...if that.

So what's interesting now, is that even though there was an initial difference of .020"-.025" in widths, after edge sanding with the Festool Positioning Aid, the difference in widths is now down to .016". So while we all aspire to perfection, even if perfection is achieved...we may not be aware of it because the nits we're picking are so small.

Caution...this applies to woodworking projects only...metalworking is still worth picking nits.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 533
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #49 on: April 22, 2021, 02:18 AM »
Yep, more accurate cuts are made without clamps even with the the FS/2 system. Avoids additional lateral forces.

This is where the various parallel guides get the edge - by avoiding both a need to mark and the need to clamp.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2021, 02:21 AM by mino »
When the Machine does not have a brain, use Yours.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 2x 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2400, 2x GRS 16 PE, GECKO-DOSH

Offline JeremyH.

  • Posts: 320
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #50 on: April 22, 2021, 01:48 PM »
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Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 2867
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #51 on: April 22, 2021, 02:00 PM »
The Powermatic model PM 2000 is a solid, above-average and quality cabinet saw, miles apart from a contractor saw.

Offline JeremyH.

  • Posts: 320
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #52 on: April 22, 2021, 06:53 PM »
How hard is it to collapse it to just the base size?
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Offline thudchkr

  • Posts: 188
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #53 on: April 22, 2021, 11:17 PM »
How hard is it to collapse it to just the base size?

Typically not too bad. Front rail easy enough to take off. The outfeed table is more of an unknown. Nice item to have and probably just bolted on as well. Table on the right is also bolted in place. None of those fasteners are very hard to get at.

I wouldn’t remove the cast iron wings because removing them doesn’t make it that much smaller, but if you do, you’ll just have to make sure they align when reinstalled.

I’ve been using mine for many, many years and have never had any issues with it. I replaced the Accu-fence with the Incra TS-LS, that I later converted to metric. The stock fence is decent but I’m much happier with the Incra.

I’m sure you’d be happy with it.
Clint

Offline JeremyH.

  • Posts: 320
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #54 on: April 23, 2021, 01:26 PM »
It sold already  [sad]
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Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 2867
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #55 on: April 23, 2021, 01:41 PM »
Like houses, good machines sell quickly in this pandemic time. Many properties in my neighborhood are sold within a few weeks after they're listed.

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 8878
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #56 on: April 23, 2021, 01:57 PM »
Like houses, good machines sell quickly in this pandemic time. Many properties in my neighborhood are sold within a few weeks after they're listed.

In my neighborhood, tools are sold within hours and houses are sold within days thanks to Covid 19.

Offline rvieceli

  • Posts: 1516
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #57 on: April 23, 2021, 02:34 PM »
What Cheese said. Plus that saw was reasonably priced and single phase. Higher HP 3 phase equipment may last a little longer, depending on where it is listed. For example, 2-3 HP 3 phase motors can usually be run off a VFD while 10 HP 3 phase usually needs a 20HP rotary phase converter or utility company 3 phase.

Generally speaking, if you want stuff, you can't take too much time making up your mind.

Ron

Offline rvieceli

  • Posts: 1516
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #58 on: April 23, 2021, 03:02 PM »
@JeremyH. You didn't mention how much space you have available. But to completely get this thread off the rails [eek]

There is a lovely Euro slider for sale on Facebook marketplace in Moscow Idaho for 1500. Looks to be in decent shape. It's a Casadei KS 3000 made in Italy.

It is a lot of saw for what it's listed at. But that's also the problem it is a LOT of saw. But if you have the room , it probably wouldn't take a lot of effort to get it up and running.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/279365480334976/?ref=search&referral_code=marketplace_search&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3A71904368-3c4a-4496-a618-b70897f7f29f

Ron

Offline JeremyH.

  • Posts: 320
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #59 on: April 23, 2021, 03:32 PM »
The one I was looking at was two phase. I don't have three phase power. Man I screwed up not getting that. Kicking myself now.

I was going to borrow a Delta contractor (the old good one) and buy Incra fence but Incra is 18-22 weeks out (what a waste of time)

I don't have Facebook, and I wouldn't sign up if you gave me a Felder saw. Maybe you can sign up for just the market place? I'll check.

Space is somewhat limited to wheels etc is preferred.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2021, 03:42 PM by JeremyH. »
CXS;RO150;ETS EC 125/3 EQ;CT26e  KSS400;MT55cc;DDF 40

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 2867
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #60 on: April 23, 2021, 07:44 PM »
Snip.
I don't have Facebook,

No FACEBOOK account?! [scared] [scared] [scared] [eek] You're missing a lot....

Just joking. I don't have an FB acct either. Nor Instagram, etc. I think the new Instagram no longer allows non-account holders to view its contents/posts. Blessing in disguise: More time for the shop. [big grin] [big grin]

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Offline tsmi243

  • Posts: 104
Re: Debating tablesaw...
« Reply #61 on: April 25, 2021, 10:47 AM »
Someone pointed out that many table saw users struggled with the blade/fence alignment issue.


I was one of them, but also pointed out that it's an issue of convenience, not accuracy.  If you work around the limitations, you can make pretty much any crappy fence system as accurate as you'll ever need.  You'll just be ticked off the whole time.   [mad]

Jeremy- if you haven't put hands on a Dewalt yet, I'd recommend trying that out before you write them off.  The "top of the line" DW7941 is under $600, takes a dado, has B+ dust collection, and folds up about the size of a large suitcase.  It's the best cheap fence I've ever used (rack n' pinion), and can be reinforced if you're still not happy with it.  An hour of dialing in, and it's just as accurate as the dialed-in Craftsman I used to have (cast iron, 1980's built, belt drive).   Seriously, the ONLY thing this one can't do is magnetic jigs.  It's also about 100lbs, so don't lean too hard on it. 

**OK, so TWO things it can't do- if you include power feeders.  But I never used one of those anyway.