Author Topic: Cubitron with Festool sanders  (Read 21071 times)

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Offline Cheese

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Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #90 on: August 27, 2022, 10:19 AM »
Lately, I've been sanding a few interior doors that were painted with some SW water based paint about 20 years ago. This is only a temporary fix because I'll be replacing the doors in a couple of years. So I'm not trying to strip the paint from the door but just level it out and scuff it up for a new coat of paint.

I've been using 180 Cubitron II in a ETSC 125 set at speed #6 with the standard dust bag. The results have been excellent, the surface is really smooth with minimal gumming up on the Cubitron paper. 3M claims that the Cubitron discs run cooler than normal and the results I got are the proof of that statement.

Here's a view of the disc after 20 minutes of sanding with the bag on. Very minimal build-up and the Cubitron grains are still sharp to the touch.




However, I decided to empty the dust bag and this is what I found.




After seeing this, I decided to install a new disc, hook the sander up to the MIDI and sand for another 20 minutes. Here are the new results.






Difficult to see from these photos but you can feel the differences on the paper between using just the bag and instead using a vacuum. The Cubitron grains also feel sharper when using the vacuum.



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Offline Bob D.

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Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #91 on: August 27, 2022, 01:08 PM »
So you think the paper is limiting air flow which is causing the dust to buildup inside the tool?

Did you run the same test with Festool paper?
-----
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Offline afish

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Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #92 on: August 27, 2022, 01:12 PM »
there is no question hat the paper/film discs restrict air flow. the holes between the festool and 3m do not line up well. 

Offline Cheese

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Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #93 on: August 27, 2022, 01:36 PM »
So you think the paper is limiting air flow which is causing the dust to buildup inside the tool?

Did you run the same test with Festool paper?

Not really, it's just that the small internal blower on the ETS 125 can't compete with an external vacuum on sticky paint residue. The only difference between photo 2 & photo 4 is the addition of the MIDI and the MIDI was only set on #3.

I've sanded a lot of bare teak with just the bag attached and never noticed the restriction when I emptied the bag.

I've more pieces to sand and I'll swap out some Granat for the Cubitron and see what happens. This may not be an issue with the ETS 150 because the pad on the 150 is much more open.




Offline ChuckS

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Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #94 on: August 27, 2022, 02:17 PM »
There's also no question that, everything being equal, a sander performs better with the use of dust extraction (set to proper suction) than not.

Offline Bob D.

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Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #95 on: August 27, 2022, 04:59 PM »
The newer 3M Extract might be a better choice. It has a much more open pattern that should let it breath better on the Festool sanders.

Is there an intermediary pad needed to use Cubitron paper on a Festool sander?
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline Crazyraceguy

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Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #96 on: August 27, 2022, 06:31 PM »
I would say that this is one of the problems that you run into with after-market consumables that are intended to fit everything. It turns into a compromise, which is "good enough" for most of the things it fits, but not ideal for any of them.
CSX
DF500 + assortment set
PS420 + Base kit
OF1010
OF1010F
OF1400
MFK700 (2)
TS55, FS1080, FS1400 holey, FS1900, FS3000
CT26E + Workshop cleaning set
RO90
RO125
ETS EC 125
RAS115
ETS 125 (2)
TS75
Shaper Origin/Workstation/Plate
MFT clamps set
Installers set
Centrotech organizer set
Socket/Ratchet set

Offline Cheese

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Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #97 on: August 27, 2022, 08:49 PM »
I would say that this is one of the problems that you run into with after-market consumables that are intended to fit everything. It turns into a compromise, which is "good enough" for most of the things it fits, but not ideal for any of them.

I hear what you're saying but there is supposed to be a corporate "synergestic" & professional business relationship between 3M and Festool...one would hope that some of these seemingly niggling issues would have been resolved. I bring this up because the sanding pads for the Festool 150 mm sanders look to be a better fit with the 3M product than the 125 mm sander pads. 





« Last Edit: August 28, 2022, 10:00 AM by Cheese »

Offline Cheese

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Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #98 on: August 28, 2022, 11:56 AM »
The newer 3M Extract might be a better choice. It has a much more open pattern that should let it breath better on the Festool sanders.

Is there an intermediary pad needed to use Cubitron paper on a Festool sander?

A "pad saver" needs to be used with Cubitron net discs but not with Cubitron film discs. The film disc is manufactured from 3 mil polyester film so it's incredibly tough...tougher than any paper or cloth backing product.

What is interesting is the 125 mm pad saver from Festool vs 3M. Here's Festool #203344 first & then 3M #20444.






Here's an interesting comparison between 3M net and Mirka net. Towards the bottom of the page there is a series of videos. Click on the "Side-by-Side Comparison"

https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/collision-repair-us/featured-products/net/?utm_campaign=lattice_glblalwaysonsearch&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&utm_content=demo_na&utm_term=sibg-aad-na-en_us-pa-lattice_glblalwaysonsearch-cpc-google-na-demo-ad2-jan22-na&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI7-TwxdHp-QIVZ3FvBB1YCgJ8EAAYASAAEgKORvD_BwE#
« Last Edit: August 28, 2022, 12:13 PM by Cheese »

Offline Bob D.

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Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #99 on: August 28, 2022, 02:26 PM »
Another good comparison of various brands of paper (19 in all I believe).

-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline Cheese

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Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #100 on: August 31, 2022, 12:24 PM »
I'm just loving the Cubitron paper so much when sanding these painted doors that I decided to order some for the 6" ETS EC sander. I ordered it from a local place, R. S. Hughes, that stocks all the sizes and all the grits. The nice thing is they can be purchased in single pieces only if a person just wants to take a few for a test drive.


https://www.rshughes.com/p/3M-Cubitron-II-Hookit-Clean-Sanding-775L-6-In-Film-Disc-180-Grit-Very-Fine-Hook-Loop/076308_64265/

Offline Cheese

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Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #101 on: August 31, 2022, 01:23 PM »
Another good comparison of various brands of paper (19 in all I believe).



Thanks for posting this Bob...watched it and it's interesting & surprising at the same time. Surprised that Abranet was rated as low as it is.  Here's the overall findings for you 10-minute managers out there.


Offline afish

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Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #102 on: August 31, 2022, 03:07 PM »
Saw it watched the whole thing and tried the 3m Extract, while there was some valuable info.  There is a difference between sanding test panels robotically and real world sanding.  I can without a doubt say that the film discs outperform the Extract in "real world" sanding except for dust collection IMO. Its unfortunate that the film disc holes dont align better with Festool hole pattern.  Either way hands down the cubitron discs are the best on the market if you need durability get the film if you are more concerned with dust control get the extract.     

Offline Chainring

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Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #103 on: August 31, 2022, 03:22 PM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe they used protection pads in that test which is almost a requirement with the net discs and with Xtract. In the link Cheese shared, 3M recommends protection pads in the PDFs. If so, the test is somewhat misleading from a price standpoint.

Offline Bob D.

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Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #104 on: August 31, 2022, 03:41 PM »
"There is a difference between sanding test panels robotically and real world sanding."

Agree, in the 'lab' and in the field are two different environments.

And wasn't that one reason why they used a 'robot' to perform the testing?

Removing that variable from the equation gave them a more controlled and equitable comparison didn't it?

The protection pad is a good point. How often are you replacing that pad though. Does it last 20 discs, 50, or less?
Still it's cost should be factored into that of the disc against those papers which do not require a pad.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Online rmhinden

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Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #105 on: August 31, 2022, 04:59 PM »
I received an email earlier today from Taylor Toolworks that they have 3M Xtract Sanding Disks 25% off, link is here.



I may try some out.

Bob


Offline afish

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Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #106 on: August 31, 2022, 09:27 PM »
"There is a difference between sanding test panels robotically and real world sanding."

Agree, in the 'lab' and in the field are two different environments.

And wasn't that one reason why they used a 'robot' to perform the testing?

Removing that variable from the equation gave them a more controlled and equitable comparison didn't it?

The protection pad is a good point. How often are you replacing that pad though. Does it last 20 discs, 50, or less?
Still it's cost should be factored into that of the disc against those papers which do not require a pad.

If you have your own robot sander sanding flat panels all day and material removal rate/cost per gram is your primary concern then great. I get the testing and the trying to even the playing field. However, the cost per gram can be considerably skewed in real world environments. That's the world I live in. The video does a good job doing what they did and dont dispute the findings based on the test parameters.  Just because a race car may do well on a paved track doesn't mean its the best option on a motocross track.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2022, 06:45 AM by afish »

Offline Kraftt

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Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #107 on: October 19, 2022, 09:19 PM »
Great thread.  Does anyone have any info on who makes the 3M Xtrac Electric Random Orbital Sander for 3M ?
I'm hoping not Mirka, but then the options might be worse.  The price is less than a Deros too.  Thanks.

Offline Lincoln

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Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #108 on: October 19, 2022, 09:23 PM »
Why do you hope it's not Mirka?

Offline Kraftt

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Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #109 on: October 19, 2022, 10:32 PM »
So many reported failures.

Offline Lincoln

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Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #110 on: October 19, 2022, 10:49 PM »
Reported where, on here?

Offline luvmytoolz

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Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #111 on: October 20, 2022, 01:24 AM »
The Mirka had a pretty bad rep with switch/PSU connector failures, and people sending it in for service, only to have the repaired or new unit fail again before long. I've heard a lot of positive things about them but there's also quite a lot of negatives.

The thing that really kills it for me though is the paddle switch on top, I just didn't find it useful, but that's just my opinion, I'm sure many others love this feature.

Offline simonh

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Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #112 on: October 20, 2022, 04:11 AM »
I'm happy with my Mirka DEROS.  Over 4 years old and never missed a beat. I do like the Iridium paper for striping finishes (its more aggressive and can handle more abuse than the net) and then switch to the more expensive and delicate Abranet for other sanding stages or Abralon for flatting finishes. I also have the DEOSbut that doesn't get as many hours use as I prefer the DEROS.  I may pick up the 77mm Deros as I think that would be a nice complement for smaller pieces, and I'd probably prefer it to the DEOS.

In the UK, it seems the new 3m xtract sander is priced pretty much at the same price as the Mirka!
-Simon

Offline woodferret

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Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #113 on: October 20, 2022, 09:00 AM »
https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/p/d/b40065039/  things wear like steel and resist clogging better than anything I have found. If you happen to touch the edge of the disc wile its spinning it will cut you like a razor. So be careful with that.

I had it on a hand sanding pad and it still cut me like a mofo.

Offline Steve1

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Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #114 on: October 20, 2022, 11:04 AM »
Is 3M Xtract different than (regular ?) Cubitron ?

Offline afish

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Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #115 on: October 20, 2022, 12:03 PM »
yes as far as the backing the film backed is more durable its the same abrasive. I love the dc of the xtract but love the durability/longevity of the film back.

Offline Cheese

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Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #116 on: October 20, 2022, 12:47 PM »
I mentioned in Reply 91, that for sanding painted surfaces as opposed to naked wooden surfaces, it's better to use a vac with the Cubitron + ETS 125/ETSC 125/Pro 5 line of sanders than just relying on the internal impeller and the external bag. I forgot to post these photos.

This is a photo of a Cubitron 400 disc on an ETSC 125 using just the external dust bag. A closet door was being lightly sanded in between coats.

Looking at the sandpaper surface you can see paint residue inside most of the Cubitron holes. The areas where there is no residue corresponds to being close to or directly over a hole in the sanding pad.




Once the Cubitron disc is removed you can see the paint dust on the pad and how it relates to the exhaust holes in the pad.




Looking closer at the deposits on the pad, they're soft at this stage, nothing more than dust, but as more dust collects and sanding heat builds, they turn into hard deposits which telegraph their presence through the Cubitron paper and produce swirls.




When we look at the bottom of the Cubitron disc we can see some of this paint residue already becoming hard because it's closer to the source of heat.




Looking closer yet, each area around the hole has hardened or is starting to harden. I had to scrape these off of the back of the Cubitron with a dull knife. On the other hand, using a vac eliminates most of the residue and it also cools the back of the Cubitron and the sanding pad. This situation didn't happen when I used a vac.



If attention isn't paid to this condition, the hardened residue starts to grow out through the holes and the swirls become even worse.








Offline Kraftt

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Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #117 on: October 20, 2022, 02:35 PM »
3M also has the Cubitron II 310W Economy Net. Box of 100 for $34.  All net and a little less aggressive I'm told. Apparently it can produce a finer finish.  Here's an image of the 3M sanding pad for their RO too.  Warrantee on their sander is 1 year with a 10 day turn around.  Feedback is they just send out a new sander in less time until they can stock up on parts as they are so new.

« Last Edit: October 30, 2022, 06:11 PM by Kraftt »