Author Topic: Cubitron with Festool sanders  (Read 8322 times)

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Offline Rick Herrick

  • Posts: 588
Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2021, 03:49 PM »
I got the impression they used to be hole-less but a lot of customer complaints got it fixed.  Fingers crossed.

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Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 8952
Re: Cubitron II with Festool sanders
« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2021, 11:45 AM »
5" Cubitron II discs cost just 30 cents each when purchased in trial multi packs. They cost 80 cents each when purchased in 25-packs.




I'm using them to sand teak furniture and prefer them over Granat discs. They seem to have a lot longer life.  The 3M ceramic abrasives are attached to a film backing while the Granat uses a paper backing.


Offline afish

  • Posts: 604
Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2021, 01:26 PM »
the cubitron is way better but i do notice a small loss in dust extraction. You also have to be careful with that film backing when its spinning it can cut you like a razor. I was thinkng of making a punch to put the main festool holes in it.

Offline GregorHochschild

  • Posts: 20
Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2021, 03:05 PM »
Unfortunately, I don’t think there are 150 sample packs…

One problem I had with Cubitron is that they become loose and don’t stick to the sander anymore before the actual sandpaper is worn out. Anyone with the same problem?

Offline tsmi243

  • Posts: 126
Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2021, 09:32 PM »
I had perfectly normal dust extraction, through several disc changes.  Then, suddenly, no dust extraction at all. 

Turns out, there IS a way to put the disc on that misses nearly every one of the dust holes.  It's honestly hard to find, but it's there. 

If you find a hole punch for a 125, let me know

Offline afish

  • Posts: 604
Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2021, 10:42 PM »
The hole punch is something Im going to have to make not find. I was thinking two pieces of wood with the hole pattern drilled in it and then gluing some sharpened tubing in one half to create a male/female punch.  The film back concerns me a tad.  If it was paper back im sure it would work but that film seems pretty tough. 

Offline thorp

  • Posts: 9
Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2021, 01:01 AM »
Something like this would probably work to punch holes, albeit a slow method.

https://www.harborfreight.com/9-piece-hollow-punch-set-3838.html

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 8952
Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2021, 10:18 AM »
Here's something interesting.

Here's some Cubitron II 180 grit after sanding teak for about 10-15 minutes. I'm using an ETSC 125 with an ERGO power adapter and a MIDI on max suction. Some of the sawdust is even with the top of the sanding disc.








I just received some Cubitron II in the 6" size, it'll be interesting to see how the dust collection is with the additional holes in the 6" sanding pad.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 8952
Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #39 on: June 27, 2021, 10:07 AM »
Here's the same dust evacuation test only using the ETS EC 125 with a 150 mm pad. Same MIDI vac and hose with the suction on max. The only thing that was changed was the sander.

There's a huge difference in dust collection because of all the additional holes in the 150 mm pad.






Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 5297
Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #40 on: June 27, 2021, 11:06 AM »
Off topic but I used some of these disks on a lathe turning. It was cool to see the streams of dust shooting out of the little holes.

Offline afish

  • Posts: 604
Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #41 on: June 27, 2021, 12:33 PM »
Yes the 150 looks much better.  You can actually see on the 125 pad many of the holes dont line up with the paper. It still has adequate dust collection but I can tell its not as good as festool paper but performance wise the 3m is hard to beat.   

Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #42 on: September 05, 2021, 09:35 PM »
Here is a new sanding disk showdown video from Katz-Moses. Looks pretty conclusive that the new Cubitron II Net sanding disks from 3M are the best. Looks like it is longer lasting, better price and they fixed the extraction problem.



Does anyone have any direct experience with these? I'm gonna try to order some online so when they finally arrive I'll give y'all some feedback.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2021, 09:40 PM by John van Houten »

Offline squall_line

  • Posts: 824
Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #43 on: September 05, 2021, 11:05 PM »
Here is a new sanding disk showdown video from Katz-Moses. Looks pretty conclusive that the new Cubitron II Net sanding disks from 3M are the best. Looks like it is longer lasting, better price and they fixed the extraction problem.

Does anyone have any direct experience with these? I'm gonna try to order some online so when they finally arrive I'll give y'all some feedback.

 [eek] [eek] [eek]

Holy buckets.

It appears that, at least for the Festool, he used the 10-packs, which are the most expensive, to determine his cost/gram removed.  I'll say that's fair as long as he went with the most expensive packaging option for each brand's consumable.

One of my gripes with Festool's paper is how they package their selections, and how the discs drop from $1.60/disc in a 10-pack to $.84/disc in a 50-pack and $.65/disc in a 100-pack (never mind most of their selections have no 50-pack option).

Wish this video had been out when Grizzly was dropping Festool; I'd probably have a lot less Festool paper and a lot more 3M in my garage, since I overstocked up on Festool at that time.

Anyone know the lifespan of the net protection pad that you need to have to use mesh paper on Festool?  That might eat into the price difference considerably if you have to replace the interface all the time (although obviously still cheaper than replacing the pad itself if you forget to use the protector).
« Last Edit: September 05, 2021, 11:12 PM by squall_line »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 8952
Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #44 on: September 06, 2021, 12:03 AM »
A very interesting test...not that far off from what we've discussed here on the FOG lately. Most of our current abrasive evaluations have been gut feel while this one elevates the discussion to some practical standards that we as a forum, would be hard pressed to institute without some outside funding.

The only issue that raises my radar antennae is this photo of the robot in action.



Why would this label be attached to the sanding robot? I worked as an engineer for 3M for 8 years so I still feel some kinmanship towards the company, however this photo strikes me as just plain wrong if unprejudiced analytical evaluation is the desired outcome.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7689
Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #45 on: September 06, 2021, 02:41 AM »
It appears that, at least for the Festool, he used the 10-packs, which are the most expensive, to determine his cost/gram removed.  I'll say that's fair as long as he went with the most expensive packaging option for each brand's consumable.

One of my gripes with Festool's paper is how they package their selections, and how the discs drop from $1.60/disc in a 10-pack to $.84/disc in a 50-pack and $.65/disc in a 100-pack (never mind most of their selections have no 50-pack option).

A very valid point. You can't buy 3M Cubitron in small packs, so that makes the cost go down considerably. In Festool's case it is almost, or over 50% as you calculated. "People will poke holes in any test you do", looks like you found a big one.


The only issue that raises my radar antennae is this photo of the robot in action.

.........

Why would this label be attached to the sanding robot?

I think the test guys had nothing to do with that and the 3M sticker was there because the robot guys developped the robot in conjunction with 3M. Because 3M is such a big company that makes so many quality products, many people in related fields regard them as the standard. You can't develop a sanding robot without a good supply of sandpaper.


Quote
From video: Mesh is the future

Until you put it on a real world objects with edges, nooks, crannies and corners, and see it disintegrate in seconds. What's the point of having it cut forever on a flat plane if the first edge you find tears it up? I've had some experience the last year with Granat and Mirka mesh discs, and some other brands, and I am very not impressed.

But I am very anxious to try out the non-mesh version of Cubitron, unfortunately it is not sold by a lot of dealers here yet.

Disappointed in the Makita disc result. I just bought €100 in discs last week for our 225mm wall sander because it was the only brand I could find in my city. I really hope they use a different formula here.

Also disappointed they didn't include Indasa in the test, but maybe it is not available in the States? I find it very cost effective compared to Festool paper, costing only 50% of Festool Granat.

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 2336
Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #46 on: September 06, 2021, 05:14 AM »
I think Jonathan mentioned in the video that the supplier he had linked to in the description would break down the packs and sell less than a full pack.

It does make me wonder when it says "Optimized for 3M Cubitron" what that optimization means to the other brands of paper and their performance. Disc RPM and applied downforce might be where they have optimized the robot. Other than the stroke of the random orbit action I don't see what could be tweaked except extraction air flow CFM.
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It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline rvieceli

  • Posts: 1539
Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #47 on: September 06, 2021, 07:05 AM »
Alex - Indasa USA has a strong presence online here, but I don't think I have ever seen it in a retail outlet. There are a few distributors plus Amazon carries some of the line. I usually get mine from https://indasa-direct.com/

Ron
« Last Edit: September 06, 2021, 07:09 AM by rvieceli »

Offline Bert Vanderveen

  • Posts: 847
Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #48 on: September 06, 2021, 08:20 AM »
My beef with Katz-Moses’ video/test is that it is based on "grams of material taken off". I think that the result in the sense of "how does the surface look like", eg is it flat, is it evenly in structure, how visible are swirl marks, etc. is more important to a woodworker…
This test doesn’t take that into account, so I take it with lots of grains of salt.

Sidenote: the number 1 product (3M XTract Cubitron II (mesh)) is extremely hard to obtain, esp. over here in Europe. And I find it surprising that Mirka Autonet (aimed at the automotive market!) ended up as number 4...
Cheers, Bert Vanderveen

TS55 · TS55R · OF1010 · DF500 · MFT/3 + TSB1-MW 1000 + VL + CMS TS55 + CMS PS300 + LA-CS 70/CMS · CTL Midi · RTS400 · 2 x CXS Li 1,5 · T15+3 Li 4,2 · TI15 Impact Li 4,2 · Centrotec Sets 2008 + 2015 · PSB300 · LR32-SYS · RO150 · KS120 · 2 x MFK700 · RO90 · OFK700 · BS75 · OFK500 · OF2200 · CMS-GE · Vecturo 18 Li · TID 18 · TKS 80 EBS-Set · DTS 400 · ETS EC 125 w 150 pad · Surfix Set · CTL SYS · CT-VA-20 · … | Mirka 1230L P&C | Hammer: A3 31 Silent Power · N4400 · HS950 | TaigaTools: VacPods Pro Set
On order: … [ ! ]

Offline tsmi243

  • Posts: 126
Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #49 on: September 06, 2021, 11:29 AM »
My beef with Katz-Moses’ video/test is that it is based on "grams of material taken off". I think that the result in the sense of "how does the surface look like", eg is it flat, is it evenly in structure, how visible are swirl marks, etc. is more important to a woodworker…
This test doesn’t take that into account, so I take it with lots of grains of salt.



But then you'd be complaining about how subjective the test was.....


Offline Bert Vanderveen

  • Posts: 847
Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #50 on: September 06, 2021, 11:38 AM »
There must be scientific means for measuring smoothness etc. So that would not be subjective, right?
Cheers, Bert Vanderveen

TS55 · TS55R · OF1010 · DF500 · MFT/3 + TSB1-MW 1000 + VL + CMS TS55 + CMS PS300 + LA-CS 70/CMS · CTL Midi · RTS400 · 2 x CXS Li 1,5 · T15+3 Li 4,2 · TI15 Impact Li 4,2 · Centrotec Sets 2008 + 2015 · PSB300 · LR32-SYS · RO150 · KS120 · 2 x MFK700 · RO90 · OFK700 · BS75 · OFK500 · OF2200 · CMS-GE · Vecturo 18 Li · TID 18 · TKS 80 EBS-Set · DTS 400 · ETS EC 125 w 150 pad · Surfix Set · CTL SYS · CT-VA-20 · … | Mirka 1230L P&C | Hammer: A3 31 Silent Power · N4400 · HS950 | TaigaTools: VacPods Pro Set
On order: … [ ! ]

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 8952
Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #51 on: September 06, 2021, 11:44 AM »
There must be scientific means for measuring smoothness etc. So that would not be subjective, right?

The same way you measure surface roughness on metal. And they now have no-contact vision comparators to make measurements easier & faster.

It's used in the automotive industry to measure the mating surfaces of heads & engine blocks on the fly. There's no longer a need to send the items to QA for analysis, it just becomes another part/step of the production line milling operation...it only takes a couple of seconds.

https://nanovea.com/profilometry-roughness-finish/
« Last Edit: September 06, 2021, 12:47 PM by Cheese »

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7689
Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #52 on: September 06, 2021, 12:35 PM »
There must be scientific means for measuring smoothness etc. So that would not be subjective, right?

Yes, the official SI unit is mountains per square meter, but they're still arguing about it.  [tongue]

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 5297
Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #53 on: September 06, 2021, 01:34 PM »
There must be scientific means for measuring smoothness etc. So that would not be subjective, right?

Yes, the official SI unit is mountains per square meter, but they're still arguing about it.  [tongue]

Arguing or counting? Square millimeter seems more practical.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7689
Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #54 on: September 06, 2021, 01:46 PM »
There must be scientific means for measuring smoothness etc. So that would not be subjective, right?

Yes, the official SI unit is mountains per square meter, but they're still arguing about it.  [tongue]

Arguing or counting? Square millimeter seems more practical.

Sounds like you'd fit right into the debate.  [smile]

Offline xedos

  • Posts: 502
Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #55 on: September 08, 2021, 03:04 PM »
If one buys the Diablo mesh discs on sale ( which is frequent) they jump almost to the very top of the cost per gram metric, coming in just behind the new Cubitron mesh.

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 2336
Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #56 on: September 08, 2021, 04:35 PM »
If one buys the Diablo mesh discs on sale ( which is frequent) they jump almost to the very top of the cost per gram metric, coming in just behind the new Cubitron mesh.

A valid point. And who's to say the new Cubitron will remain at this low price point. If you want to introduce a new product and steal market share away from the competition which has already established their portion the best way to do that is make your product more attractive. So you either bring it out at a low price point until you get them 'hooked'. Then six months or a year later the price starts climbing. Or you include some bonus with the product to make it's purchase more enticing.
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It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline Chainring

  • Posts: 114
Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #57 on: September 08, 2021, 05:32 PM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't an interface pad be used with the mesh products? If so, there's another cost and consumable.

Offline squall_line

  • Posts: 824
Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #58 on: September 08, 2021, 07:10 PM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't an interface pad be used with the mesh products? If so, there's another cost and consumable.

You are correct; I asked a similar question above somewhere during my long rambling

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 2336
Re: Cubitron with Festool sanders
« Reply #59 on: September 08, 2021, 09:15 PM »
Which pad is the correct one to use for mesh paper?

The 492271 StickFix Interface Pad or something else.
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It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?