Author Topic: Countersink bits with depth stops  (Read 2473 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline JonathanJung

  • Posts: 243
  • www.timberlightdesigns.com
    • Timberlight Designs
Countersink bits with depth stops
« on: August 21, 2021, 11:56 PM »
Looking for a great set of countersinks for hardwoods with non-marring adjustable depth stops. I primarily will use them for installing drawer fronts, handles, cabinets, and general flush screwing with normal screws, like from McFeely's. I'd like to cut clean, round, countersink holes, with a replaceable bit, rock solid depth stop, and will get a set for each size screw. The idea of using any type of bit is great - tapered, brad point, slow spiral, or regular.

My basic set of Snappy's cut terribly:
https://www.amazon.com/Snappy-Quick-Change-5-Pc-Countersink-Rotating/dp/B000XXZME8/ref=sr_1_7?dchild=1&keywords=fuller%2Bcountersink%2Bdepth%2Bstop&qid=1629602397&sr=8-7&th=1

Here's the drills I am aware of:

Amana, carbide, ball bearing stop, tapered bit
https://www.routerbitworld.com/Amana-55150-Carbide-Tipped-82-Degree-Countersink-w-p/amana-55150.htm

Amana, carbide, AlTin coated, ball bearing stop, straight bit
https://www.routerbitworld.com/Amana-55206XL-High-Performance-Carbide-Tipped-AlTi-p/amana-55206xl.htm

Amana, carbide, ball bearing stop, slow spiral bit
https://www.routerbitworld.com/Amana-55272-Replacement-Carbide-Tipped-Countersink-p/amana-55272.htm

Amana, carbide, low-friction stop, straight bit
https://www.routerbitworld.com/Amana-55294-Carbide-Tipped-82-Degree-Countersink-w-p/amana-55294.htm

Lee Valley, look like Amana?
https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/drill-bits/71860-carbide-countersink-drills-with-low-friction-depth-stop

Festool (expensive, worth it?)
https://www.festoolproducts.com/festool-492523-ce-countersink-dr-bit-3-5mm.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=shopping&msclkid=a85c7bdf3547105708fb1afe8bd126c3

Fisch, I like their forstner bits, so why not?
https://www.woodcraft.com/products/fisch-adjustable-countersink-bit-1-8-5-16-d-x-1-3-8-oal#

Whiteside, would need additional depth stop
https://www.whitesiderouterbits.com/collections/high-speed-steel-countersinks

Fuller, HSS, tapered, only 2 depth stops - I'd like one for each cutter, and I don't need plug cutters
https://www.amazon.com/Fuller-Tapered-Drills-Boxed-Set/dp/B0032YZ060/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=fuller+countersink+drill+and+plug+cutter&qid=1625361251&sr=8-11

Snappy, low friction non marring ball bearing stop, straight bit
https://www.amazon.com/Adjustable-Friction-Non-Marring-Rotating-Countersink/dp/B01BLWL2Q6/ref=sr_1_10?dchild=1&keywords=fuller+countersink+depth+stop&qid=1629602397&sr=8-10

What else am I'm missing? Which would you recommend? I shouldn't need tapered, right?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2021, 11:48 AM by JonathanJung »

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7665
Re: Countersink bits with depth stops
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2021, 02:53 AM »
I don't know what's up with your links, but none of them seem to work for me.

I have the Festool depth stop bits of 3,5 and 4,5 mm and I think they're great. They cut very sharp and leave a very clean hole. 

Offline Frank-Jan

  • Posts: 1205
  • Dutch Canadian living in Belgium
Re: Countersink bits with depth stops
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2021, 03:21 AM »
I have the festool version in 3,5mm, 5 mm, and the special hardwood version with the long 4mm (for really hard wood, when you need to predrill the entire length of the screw).

To me they are definately worth their price, not only because of the centrotec, but they are nice to use, and hold up well.

Offline Mini Me

  • Posts: 94
Re: Countersink bits with depth stops
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2021, 05:35 AM »
I reckon my Festool CS has done at least 20,000 holes according to my invoices for screws I have used and it has not slowed down but nearly all those are into softwood. They might be expensive but they simply work.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7665
Re: Countersink bits with depth stops
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2021, 06:15 AM »
I use the 3,5 mm 99% of the time, the 4,5 hardly sees any use. I've had my first 3,5 for 8 years before I had to replace it. Mostly used on softwood, sometimes hardwood, and sparingly on aluminium.

Then I got a new 3,5 mm last year, and had hardly used it before installing concrete reinforced fibre boards a month ago. The poor thing was toast after 300 holes. But I got a new one from the client.

Offline grobkuschelig

  • Posts: 712
Re: Countersink bits with depth stops
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2021, 07:12 AM »
I can also recommend the Festool 3,5mm one.

You can get replacement drills (5-pack) as well. I needed one, due to damage from dropping the drill…

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 2295
Re: Countersink bits with depth stops
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2021, 08:29 AM »
None of those links worked for me either.

I have the Festool ones and they just work.

I have a set of Fuller but I do not like the results I get, maybe it's me.

-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline ScotF

  • Posts: 2916
Re: Countersink bits with depth stops
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2021, 09:54 AM »
I agree with others....the Festool versions are awesome and some of my favorite bits. Worth the price.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2021, 07:38 PM by ScotF »

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 8906
Re: Countersink bits with depth stops
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2021, 10:14 AM »
The links don't work for me either.

I have both Festool & Amana and I like both of them. If you do a lot of c'sinking in hard wood, you may have a longer life with the Amana version because the chamfer cutters are carbide as opposed to HSS on the Festool.








In this photo you can see the brazed carbide inserts on the Amana cutter head.




The Festool is on the top & the Amana is on the bottom. There is a slight difference in cut quality when new cutters are used in oak but it's still pretty close. It may be more dramatic after several hundred operations are performed.




Here you can see in the middle of the photo how uniform the c'sinking can become with the Amana units. These are #4, #6, #8 and #10 FHMS in oak.

« Last Edit: August 22, 2021, 10:21 AM by Cheese »

Offline Steve1

  • Posts: 100
Re: Countersink bits with depth stops
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2021, 07:04 AM »
Of the two shown by @Cheese, I like the Amana better because it has the longer cutting sleeve.   The Festool would have you commonly tightening the set screw onto the drill flutes rather than the smooth portion of the drill bit.   I have broken drill bits when tightening set screws onto the flutes. 

Offline Lincoln

  • Posts: 152
Re: Countersink bits with depth stops
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2021, 09:45 AM »
Should be noted that the Amana are available with Centrotec compatible shafts.

Offline Oldwood

  • Posts: 491
  • Alberta, Canada
Re: Countersink bits with depth stops
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2021, 09:56 AM »
I like these from Lee Valley. They are available at other locations a well. They are non marking with free-spinning, low-friction stop.

https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/drill-bits/71860-carbide-countersink-drills-with-low-friction-depth-stop
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Confucius

Offline JonathanJung

  • Posts: 243
  • www.timberlightdesigns.com
    • Timberlight Designs
Re: Countersink bits with depth stops
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2021, 11:55 AM »
Fixed all the links. Not sure what happened.

Thanks for the responses! Can anyone comment on the tapered drills? Are they at all necessary?

As you can see, Amana makes their units with slow spiral, normal, and tapered. Any comments there?



The links don't work for me either.

I have both Festool & Amana and I like both of them. If you do a lot of c'sinking in hard wood, you may have a longer life with the Amana version because the chamfer cutters are carbide as opposed to HSS on the Festool.


In this photo you can see the brazed carbide inserts on the Amana cutter head.

The Festool is on the top & the Amana is on the bottom. There is a slight difference in cut quality when new cutters are used in oak but it's still pretty close. It may be more dramatic after several hundred operations are performed.

Here you can see in the middle of the photo how uniform the c'sinking can become with the Amana units. These are #4, #6, #8 and #10 FHMS in oak.


Thank you Cheese, that's really helpful. This leans me towards the Amana. Do you wish you had gone with the non-marring unit, the one with the plastic contact?


Offline Oldwood

  • Posts: 491
  • Alberta, Canada
Re: Countersink bits with depth stops
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2021, 12:41 PM »
Any comments on the different between these two, other than $10 price difference. If the "no-mar" stop actually works, then why the need for the bearing on the more expensive one?

https://www.amanatool.com/55240-carbide-tipped-countersink-with-adjustable-depth-stop-and-no-thrust-ball-bearing-1-2-dia-x-11-64-drill-dia-x-1-4-inch-quick-release-hex-shank.html#prettyPhoto

https://www.amanatool.com/55295-carbide-tipped-82-degree-countersink-with-adjustable-low-friction-depth-stop-1-2-dia-x-9-64-drill-dia-x-1-4-inch-quick-release-hex-shank.html

I think that the idea that the bearing will spin and not mark the surface is flawed. When the bearing is new and clean, that is probably true, but it requires some downward force to supply the friction to stop it from spinning and until enough force is supplied it will spin on the wood surface.

I have countersunk screws into a fairly freshly finished surface with the nylon looking low-friction collar stop, and it does not mark the surface even if it spins as long as it is clean.

I think a low-friction collar on the one with the bearing would be the best of both worlds.
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Confucius

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 8906
Re: Countersink bits with depth stops
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2021, 12:43 PM »
Thank you Cheese, that's really helpful. This leans me towards the Amana. Do you wish you had gone with the non-marring unit, the one with the plastic contact?

Johnathon, the items I've shown are non-marring, that gold colored depth stop comes to an immediate halt once it touches the surface. In the last photo of the countersunk screws in oak, you'll notice there are no surface blemishes.

I purchased my set when they first came out 3-4 years ago, they initially only offered standard hex drives. Amana now offers Centrotec hex drives.  [smile]

The tapered drills are used for boat building when you use a standard "old fashioned" wood screw. The taper of the hole follows the taper of the wood screw giving an enhanced level of water proofness to the decking boards.

Offline JonathanJung

  • Posts: 243
  • www.timberlightdesigns.com
    • Timberlight Designs
Re: Countersink bits with depth stops
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2021, 01:29 PM »
Thank you Cheese, that's really helpful. This leans me towards the Amana. Do you wish you had gone with the non-marring unit, the one with the plastic contact?

Johnathon, the items I've shown are non-marring, that gold colored depth stop comes to an immediate halt once it touches the surface. In the last photo of the countersunk screws in oak, you'll notice there are no surface blemishes.

I purchased my set when they first came out 3-4 years ago, they initially only offered standard hex drives. Amana now offers Centrotec hex drives.  [smile]

The tapered drills are used for boat building when you use a standard "old fashioned" wood screw. The taper of the hole follows the taper of the wood screw giving an enhanced level of water proofness to the decking boards.

That's good to know. What sizes did you end up with for the respective screw sizes?

Offline Mini Me

  • Posts: 94
Re: Countersink bits with depth stops
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2021, 08:45 PM »
I looked at the adjustable micro stops and from what I can gather you need to buy cutters to go into the cage which means to me that different screws require the cutter to be changed which might be a bit of a PIA on some jobs but generally not as woodworking normally only requires a few different gauge screws. The problem I find with a CS such as the Festool, Amana or LeeValley is adjustment so the head finishes neatly flush and I think I might have the answer. Using a piece of wood take the time to countersink holes into it for each size screw and using it you can quickly set the depth of the CS to suit any of the screws. Loosen te depth adjustment, place over the counter sink, set the depth to the hole and tighten the depth adjustment. I think it would be far quicker than any other method including the microstop item as nice as they are.

Offline Mini Me

  • Posts: 94
Re: Countersink bits with depth stops
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2021, 06:06 AM »
Using a piece of wood take the time to countersink holes into it for each size screw and using it you can quickly set the depth of the CS to suit any of the screws. Loosen the depth adjustment, place over the counter sink, set the depth to the hole and tighten the depth adjustment. I think it would be far quicker than any other method including the microstop item as nice as they are.

I did this today and it works well, and it takes seconds to get the correct height for the CS.

Offline JonathanJung

  • Posts: 243
  • www.timberlightdesigns.com
    • Timberlight Designs
Re: Countersink bits with depth stops
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2021, 01:45 PM »
Would like to update with the troubles I'm having. I bought a set of 4 Amana's and all of them mar the material. Hope someone like Cheese can chime in.

Using these bits:

55242
55229
55227
55225

I used varied speed, feed rate, and pressure and am getting consistent results with marring. The diameter of the marring is exactly the same as the inner edge of the depth stop contact surface.

The white material is painted MDF

The wood is maple ply

The last 2 images are holes after I lightly sanded with P600 off the coating and chamfered edges of the 55242. This made the marring worse.

Any ideas? I'm thinking of returning them for the Amana units with the white plastic stop and no bearing. These are too expensive to have this issue.

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 8906
Re: Countersink bits with depth stops
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2021, 02:59 PM »
Well that's not good Jonathan...Sure you're not running those at too high a RPM?

Here's an example of a #4 (55331), #6 (55228), #8 (55240) and a #10 (55242) in maple strip flooring at 540 RPM. I also tried the #10 in Baltic birch ply and a piece of cedar. No marks.



I increased the speed to 1150 RPM on the maple and it left 2 short marks across from each other. Increasing the speed to 2220 RPM left a single mark about 1/3 around the c'sink.

I then tried the #10 on a primed cedar shingle reducing the speed to 540 RPM and it did not make a mark.

You want to countersink it until the outer ring just stops and then immediately lift the drill press handle.


Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 9688
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: Countersink bits with depth stops
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2021, 03:24 PM »
Could the problem be that they work well on hard wood but not on ply or coated surfaces? I am thinking that a really smooth or coated surface might not have enough grab to prevent the spinning / slipping.

Although I have never been able to completely trust any depth stop that contacts the surface. No matter what they are made of or how good the design, they always look like trouble to me.

Seth

Offline elfick

  • Posts: 639
Re: Countersink bits with depth stops
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2021, 03:58 PM »
There are people way more knowledgable about this topic than I am already in the conversion, but couldn't you just hold onto the depth stop to keep it from spinning?

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 8906
Re: Countersink bits with depth stops
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2021, 05:21 PM »
I tried several holes on Baltic ply @ 540 RPM and they didn't mark the material. Next I tried the #10 in some cedar pieces, primed siding and white painted trim. Again, using 540 RPM these are the results.



Only on the one countersink on the painted trim did I get a small mark.

These c'sinks have a series of bearings internally so they are real sensitive and when the collar just touches the wood, it stops almost immediately. However if it's spinning at a fast rate of speed there will be some lag time because of the high RPM. So slower is better.




Offline JonathanJung

  • Posts: 243
  • www.timberlightdesigns.com
    • Timberlight Designs
Re: Countersink bits with depth stops
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2021, 06:55 PM »
Thanks guys, I ran them again at 450rpm and it's much much better. Not 100%, but satisfactory. Shame, because that slow RPM makes the drilling slower...

Surely they should have made them out of something other than aluminum? Alu and wood don't go well together.

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 8906
Re: Countersink bits with depth stops
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2021, 08:49 PM »
Ya, I would have thought they’d use Delrin.