Author Topic: Cordless Lamello (Read 2382 times)

DynaGlide · « **on:** May 06, 2022, 02:15 PM »

Cordless Zeta P2 and Classic X machines are making the rounds on the interwebs. I don't really see the appeal. If I'm using a jointing (joinery?) machine like a Domino or a Zeta or biscuit what have you, I'm using dust extraction, which means I have power.

I could see people not liking having to plug the machine in separate but I swapped over to a plug it on my Zeta so that's a non issue. Someone could use a Neutrik just as well.

I struggle with the cordless vs corded track saw as well. Same rationale. If I have dust extraction, I have power. At least with that argument, the dust bag is supposedly effective enough for a few cuts.

afish · « **Reply #1 on:** May 06, 2022, 02:20 PM »

I have the same issues. Sanders, joining tools, tracksaw etc. that I am going to be running 95% of the time or more with a dust hose the power cord doesnt phase me at all. Different strokes for different folks I guess but I agree its pointless for me.

ChuckS · « **Reply #2 on:** May 06, 2022, 02:24 PM »

Know nothing about the cordless Lamello. But if the DF500 came out cordlessly and dust extraction wasn't a factor, I still wouldn't get one, because of the weight issue. I find that the DF500's weight is within my comfort zone, and adding more weight to it is not I want to see. I've used the DF700 twice, and it'd be too heavy for me on a long-term basis.

The difference between a DF500 and DFXL is more than that between a TS55 and TS75, and already some find the TS75 a tad heavy.

afish · « **Reply #3 on:** May 06, 2022, 02:48 PM »

tools such as domino, lamello, ddf40 dust collection isnt a "nice to have" items its pretty much a must too.

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #4 on:** May 06, 2022, 03:00 PM »

@DynaGlide Matt you raised the same question on a recent thread and I struggled to answer, but the question caused me to reflect on it while in the shop. You'll recall I opted for the new cordless TS even though I always have power. I also have the 10 meter and shorter (13'?) sleeved hose/cords so I have both options available, as well as several old style anti-static hoses.

I think where I've landed on it is the new green/black sleeved hose is supple, doesn't snag on things or have the cord-end dangling in the way. It's just more enjoyable to use, in my circumstances.

I do use it more often to clean up the work area than as dust extraction for tools, but that's partly due to the small space. Can't deal with a mess so I clean up after each operation.

Secondly, my most used tools are the new TS, Shaper Origin, cordless Dewalt sander and router. None of them benefit for having the plug-it attached to the hose, but do benefit from the Bluetooth control on the hose.

I do have a plug-it cord always available, hanging next to the extractor hose and plugged into the CT. When I use the OF1400 or Domino I'm basically in the situation I was before the hoses were available with the cord sleeved, i.e. with the hose/cord seperate. The tradeoff works for my situation.

Where it really leaves me is with way to many old hoses lying around...

FWIW, if you haven't used the new sleeved hose, it's a huge upgrade from the older green AS hoses.

RMW

Josh2 · « **Reply #5 on:** May 06, 2022, 03:06 PM »

I can see the appeal. One less connection does make a difference.

In addition, the zeta P2 does not need dust extraction like the DF. The blade ejects the chips and they don't get stuck. You see plenty of people use it without (including the main marketing and education person in the U.S.). I am still always using it with dust extractor though...

Crazyraceguy · « **Reply #6 on:** May 06, 2022, 05:57 PM »

Quote from: Josh2 on May 06, 2022, 03:06 PM

I can see the appeal. One less connection does make a difference.

In addition, the zeta P2 does not need dust extraction like the DF. The blade ejects the chips and they don't get stuck. You see plenty of people use it without (including the main marketing and education person in the U.S.). I am still always using it with dust extractor though...

The tool itself does not need it, as you said, but that thing throws dust like crazy. Your lungs don't need that either. It's tiny dust too, not like drill or drill press chips, which are far bigger and slower moving. In a small shop, this could be even worse. Then there is the mess. The less you throw around the shop, the less you need to pick up later, whether that is CT or broom.

Laminator · « **Reply #7 on:** May 10, 2022, 10:01 AM »

If you have power running through the hose, it might make little to no difference. With the power cord dragging on the floor (especially with tools you walk along with) I can't count the times a foot on the ole cord brought things to a sudden stop as I was merrily sawing or routing away. Being cordless makes a huge difference in this area as the hose never seems to end up under foot nor does the issue of the cord getting tangled around the hose.

mino · « **Reply #8 on:** May 10, 2022, 10:49 AM »

Quote from: Laminator on May 10, 2022, 10:01 AM

If you have power running through the hose, it might make little to no difference. With the power cord dragging on the floor (especially with tools you walk along with) I can't count the times a foot on the ole cord brought things to a sudden stop as I was merrily sawing or routing away. Being cordless makes a huge difference in this area as the hose never seems to end up under foot nor does the issue of the cord getting tangled around the hose.

This.

Living in the world of Plug-It, we may never understand why folks living in the world of multiple 4-meter cords hanging all over the place may wanna go cordless in the shop ...

For most people cord-less tools solve problems Festool solved with Plug-It and cable-in-hose setups decades ago.

If is funny. I love my TSC, but at times I wish I went with the TS instead. The Plug-It keeps hanging around from the hose when I use it with the TSC, just bothering me and the times I truly require the saw to be cordless are far in between. TS + HKC may have been a better fit. First world problems. Heh.

Tim Raleigh · « **Reply #9 on:** May 10, 2022, 12:08 PM »

Quote from: DynaGlide on May 06, 2022, 02:15 PM

Cordless Zeta P2 and Classic X machines are making the rounds on the interwebs. I don't really see the appeal. If I'm using a jointing (joinery?) machine like a Domino or a Zeta or biscuit what have you, I'm using dust extraction, which means I have power.

Thanks for the heads up on this, I was just wandering around thinking when they would come out with this.
For the field or in new home builds this is a great solution for finish carpenters as the current crop of cordless biscuit joiners (Makita) don't have a lot of power. As for the dust issue, it probably could be retro fitted with a Top 20 bag, so all good there.
Tim

smorgasbord · « **Reply #10 on:** May 13, 2022, 04:36 PM »

A couple advantages of going cordless on tools that usually use dust collection:

1) If you're a on-the-job-site carpenter, sometimes just making a few cuts for things like staircase handrails or trim molding needs to be done where there's no power.

2) Cordless tools are today often brushless, so you end up with a lighter tool having the same power as a corded tool.

demographic · « **Reply #11 on:** May 14, 2022, 03:13 AM »

Quote from: smorgasbord on May 13, 2022, 04:36 PM

A couple advantages of going cordless on tools that usually use dust collection:

1) If you're a on-the-job-site carpenter, sometimes just making a few cuts for things like staircase handrails or trim molding needs to be done where there's no power.

That ones a massive difference to site carpenters and shop joiners seem incapable of seeing it.

GarryMartin · « **Reply #12 on:** May 14, 2022, 05:35 AM »

Two things that I don't think have been mentioned so far.

First is that we are now seeing more and more cordless extractors, so there isn't a 1-to-1 relationship between extraction and availability of power for all users and scenarios.

Secondly, the Zeta P2 at least is not available in a 110V version in the UK, so the cordless version opens up its use on sites where 240V tools are not allowed.

Crazyraceguy · « **Reply #13 on:** May 14, 2022, 07:36 AM »

Quote from: GarryMartin on May 14, 2022, 05:35 AM

Two things that I don't think have been mentioned so far.

First is that we are now seeing more and more cordless extractors, so there isn't a 1-to-1 relationship between extraction and availability of power for all users and scenarios.

Secondly, the Zeta P2 at least is not available in a 110V version in the UK, so the cordless version opens up its use on sites where 240V tools are not allowed.

Other than the actual plug end, isn't the US 110v compatible with UK electrically? Not that I would be happy about cutting the end off of a brand new tool, but I would to get something so unique/useful.

greg mann · « **Reply #14 on:** May 14, 2022, 09:03 AM »

Quote from: mino on May 10, 2022, 10:49 AM

. First world problems. Heh.

☝️

DynaGlide · « **Reply #15 on:** May 16, 2022, 02:19 PM »

It would appear they did consider and are offering the dust bag with the new cordless machines:

The dust bag is standard with the new machine.

Packard · « **Reply #16 on:** May 16, 2022, 03:41 PM »

I switched to a corded drill for my dowel work. It spins faster and gets the job done a lot quicker.

What that tells me, is that dowel work is not site work. It is workstation work. I would imagine that biscuit machines are used similarly. Consider carefully where you will be using this.

My electric drill spins at 2,800 rpm with almost no drop while under load.

My battery drill spins at 1,750 rpm under no load but drops significantly under load. I would guess in the 1,000 to 1,200 rpm range.

The net result is that the corded drill gets the job done twice as fast and leaves less tear out.

I do like the freedom that cordless tools offer for site work. But if you are using it primarily at a work station, then the corded tool might be better suited.

In my mind's eye, you would be using the Lamello about how I use the dowel jigs. Mainly in the shop. Anyway, stop and think about it.

afish · « **Reply #17 on:** May 16, 2022, 05:06 PM »

Not to mention another battery platform. I cant even bring myself to having a second battery platform. To each their own I guess.

FestitaMakool · « **Reply #18 on:** May 16, 2022, 05:37 PM »

Quote from: afish on May 16, 2022, 05:06 PM

Not to mention another battery platform. I cant even bring myself to having a second battery platform. To each their own I guess.

afish, CAS /or Cordless Alliance System is a joint venture between several big name European brands. Lamello is one of few on this battery platform. To name a couple well known are Mafell and Metabo.

This is something I’m considering, there are many very interesting tools within this platform:

https://www.cordless-alliance-system.com/

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #19 on:** May 16, 2022, 06:10 PM »

Quote from: FestitaMakool on May 16, 2022, 05:37 PM

Quote from: afish on May 16, 2022, 05:06 PM
Not to mention another battery platform. I cant even bring myself to having a second battery platform. To each their own I guess.

afish, CAS /or Cordless Alliance System is a joint venture between several big name European brands. Lamello is one of few on this battery platform. To name a couple well known are Mafell and Metabo.

This is something I’m considering, there are many very interesting tools within this platform:

https://www.cordless-alliance-system.com/

Wow there's a common sense idea I could really get behind. IMHO every brand has some tools that stand out for a person's particular use case, the drawback is the battery platform incompatibility. I'm teetering on adding a couple Ryobi to the fleet but just finding room for another charger is a pain.

RMW

FestitaMakool · « **Reply #20 on:** May 16, 2022, 06:23 PM »

Yes, I think this opens up possibilities for medium to small brands, as they don’t have to develop, build and support their own batteries (and chargers). Developing a tool that fits and are compatible with an existing platform must, to say the least be very appealing for smaller brands.

Crazyraceguy · « **Reply #21 on:** May 16, 2022, 08:15 PM »

Quote from: FestitaMakool on May 16, 2022, 06:23 PM

Yes, I think this opens up possibilities for medium to small brands, as they don’t have to develop, build and support their own batteries (and chargers). Developing a tool that fits and are compatible with an existing platform must, to say the least be very appealing for smaller brands.

It is a great idea, but the big companies will fight it. The thrive on proprietary batteries, plain and simple. They don't care about the small brands at all.

As far as corded/cordless, IIRC Kreg recommends that you use a corded drill, for the exact reason Packard mentioned, RPM. Faster cuts cleaner on the angled holes.
Cordless is a bit of a compromise. You get the "use anywhere" part, but it's not quite equal to the AC power units as far as the actual performance. It's "good enough" and much more portable.

mino · « **Reply #22 on:** May 17, 2022, 09:42 PM »

Quote from: Crazyraceguy on May 16, 2022, 08:15 PM

Quote from: FestitaMakool on May 16, 2022, 06:23 PM
Yes, I think this opens up possibilities for medium to small brands, as they don’t have to develop, build and support their own batteries (and chargers). Developing a tool that fits and are compatible with an existing platform must, to say the least be very appealing for smaller brands.

It is a great idea, but the big companies will fight it. The thrive on proprietary batteries, plain and simple. They don't care about the small brands at all.

As far as corded/cordless, IIRC Kreg recommends that you use a corded drill, for the exact reason Packard mentioned, RPM. Faster cuts cleaner on the angled holes.
Cordless is a bit of a compromise. You get the "use anywhere" part, but it's not quite equal to the AC power units as far as the actual performance. It's "good enough" and much more portable.

The CAS platform is really a (German division of) Metabo thing. They are by far the biggest in the alliance and they did it to help their platform compete with the other brands by extending the tools catalog of the platform via the speacialist makers like Lamello etc. You will notice 90% of the non-Metabo tools are specialist in nature and thus do not compete with Metabo lines. In effect it is not really any "alliance" but a product of Metabo where they effectively OEM the battery platform for the other makers and get the benefit of a wider platform for their tools to add.

I think a common battery platform is something that will come along once the related technologies have matured and become commoditised. The (tool) battery market is still pretty nascent and break-through tech is being introduced on an almost yearly basis. That will keep up for about 5-10 years.

I think we will settle on two "common" setups eventually:
"Small" 3-cell 10.8/12V 18650 packs /option for 6-cell/
"Mainstream" 10-cell 36/40V 18650 packs /option for 10x 21700 on same interface/
"non-standard" packs with high capacities and/or voltages

Eventually, I see the couurent 18/20V mainstream to dwindle as it is already attacked on the low end from the high-end 12V tools where modern 3-cell 18650 cells are already providing enough current as well as on the high end where 10 cells in series at 40V are superior to 2x 5 cells in series for the 18/20V platforms due to lower losses.

IMO Makita is a good example. I see them expanding their 12V LXT line as well as their 40V XGT line. Both lines "eating" from the 18V line's market.

Once that consolidation/standardization happens and Bluetooth battery interfaces are standardised, I can see common battery interfaces start becoming a thing. EU regulations might force this. They like to centrally mandate such stuff. But yeah, this market needs another decade to mature and one more to get commoditised enough for battery standardisation to make business sense.

JimH2 · « **Reply #23 on:** May 17, 2022, 10:39 PM »

Quote from: mino on May 17, 2022, 09:42 PM

Once that consolidation/standardization happens and Bluetooth battery interfaces are standardised, I can see common battery interfaces start becoming a thing. EU regulations might force this. They like to centrally mandate such stuff. But yeah, this market needs another decade to mature and one more to get commoditised enough for battery standardisation to make business sense.

The EU is good at overstepping their bounds to stifle competition. Common cords, batteries, connectors, etc sound great until you realize there is no advantage to building something better because you won't be able to sell it. Luckily for phones wireless charging will be the way by the time the EU succeeds in forcing manufacturers to use USB-C. If the EU had mandated micro-usb 10 years ago we would have not seen connector and charging speed advances. As an example Apple's Lightning connector would not have been invented as they could not have sold it even though it had the huge advantage of being able to be inserted into the phone without regard for the orientation of the cord. USB-C followed their lead as ease of plugging in was an improvement that everyone recognized. No question USB-C is the ideal solution today and without government intervention it will be improved upon and probably replaced within 5 years.

Phones will avoid this because of wireless charging, but one unintended consequence of the mandate could be requiring the USB-C connector on all phones even if they can charge wirelessly. Manufacturers get stuck with a legacy connector they no longer want or need. Consumers get stuck with a phone that is less water proof/resistant than one without it. Manufacturers have to keep buying and designing for a part they do not want to install.

Were the CAS program mandated there would be no reason to keep improving battery systems taking away the advantage of continuing to innovate. I do not want to live in that world. The only mandate for batteries should be a common plan for easily recycling the contents with the manufacturers subsidizing the program based on their percentage of batteries sold. This hurts no one and keeps the playing field level.

mino · « **Reply #24 on:** May 18, 2022, 09:29 AM »

Standards are a good thing. But they absolutely have to be based on sound and matured designs. This works where the tech settles, not so much when it is still in flux.

Ref. Brussels folks, there is a reason they are called "Moscow #2" over here ... if anyone will push this, it will be the Central Planners^(TM) of Brussels. That I am sure of. For better or worse.

The main message is to not count on any standardisation in this field within the next decade or so. Too much development flux still.