Author Topic: Considering a Hammer K3 - What options do owners recommend?  (Read 1777 times)

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Offline Prizen

  • Posts: 18
Considering a Hammer K3 - What options do owners recommend?
« on: September 22, 2020, 11:52 AM »
Hello All

I am considering a Hammer K3, (or perhaps a Minimax SC2). Space is quite limited so I don't think I have room for the outrigger table for panel crosscuts therefore ruling out the K3 Winner Comfort (the one with the outrigger table attached to the sliding table as standard).

Some of the options remaining on their Basic/Winner Lines include:

Sliding Table itself: Length of 800mm (base option) or 1250mm

Fences
Crosscut Fence: 900mm (base) or add 750mm extension
Rip Fence: Basic Rip Fence / Rip Fence with Large round bar / Cast iron rip fence rip capacity 800mm
Fine adjustment for pro rip fence

Saw unit
Scoring: No / Yes
Dado Unit: I am in Europe, didnt know these were allowed? Anyone have any experience?

Other
Rolling castors + Lifting bar

Anyone owners past or present care to share their experience? Oh, I intend on using this saw for a variety of work, some panels, some boards etc.

Thanks

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Offline Indywoodworker

  • Posts: 32
  • My favorite woodworking companion
Re: Considering a Hammer K3 - What options do owners recommend?
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2020, 02:04 PM »
I purchased a Hammer K3 Winner with the extension table.  Sliding Table is 1250mm which is very helpful.  I have the rip fence that comes with the unit with a large round bar.  I did not get the fine adjustment and so far have not needed it.  It was suggested by the Felder folks in the US to include the scoring unit on the initial purchase. 

Make sure to get both the rip blade and the crosscut or standard blade with the unit. 

If you have any other questions, please ask.

Regards,

Chuck

Offline Prizen

  • Posts: 18
Re: Considering a Hammer K3 - What options do owners recommend?
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2020, 02:17 PM »
Thanks Indy. I kinda wonder with many of these optional extras that if coming to the K3 with the perspective of it being an upgrade over a previous saw, if one didn't order the options then you don't miss them. On the other hand adding on to the base model, the various add ons may price more devisive

Offline Prizen

  • Posts: 18
Re: Considering a Hammer K3 - What options do owners recommend?
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2020, 02:19 PM »
Oh and Indy, did you also opt for the outrigger? Or are you referring to selecting the 1250mm long sliding surface only?

Offline cider

  • Posts: 24
Re: Considering a Hammer K3 - What options do owners recommend?
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2020, 02:35 PM »
  • The scoring unit works as advertised, although you have to remove the scoring blade when using a 12" main blade.
  • The dado capability is nice to have.  Note that the Hammer branded dado blade is shockingly expensive!
  • If you have room for the outrigger, I strongly recommend; otherwise, I suggest this, along with the miter fence
  • I didn't like the clamp at first, but now that I've learned its quirks, I use it frequently.
  • I also use this for outfeed support.
  • The wheels and lifting bar work well.
  • I have the edging shoe and never use it.  Waste of money for me.

That said, what I really think is essential is a Fritz and Franz setup :)
« Last Edit: September 22, 2020, 02:39 PM by cider »

Offline Indywoodworker

  • Posts: 32
  • My favorite woodworking companion
Re: Considering a Hammer K3 - What options do owners recommend?
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2020, 02:44 PM »
I have the outrigger table and the longer sliding table (1250 mm).  The outrigger table is a nice thing to have if you are cutting plywood as it helps to stabilize the larger material.  For me, it was a transition from conventional cabinet tablesaw to a sliding tablesaw.  Is it necessary to have the outrigger, that is more of a personal choice.  My thought was to put the options on the unit as an initial purchase.  Just last night I was using the outrigger table on the saw to cut larger sheets. 

Definitely get the 900 mm Crosscut fence. 

If you are considering the rolling cart portion of the saw, that is something where I might suggest looking at the Bora mobile base.  I bought the original mobile unit sold by Felder, but found that having the Bora mobile base is a more friendly in my shop.

I also agree the Fritz and Franz setup is a good idea.  However, there is a good series on YouTube for building your own. 

 

Offline threesixright

  • Posts: 594
Re: Considering a Hammer K3 - What options do owners recommend?
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2020, 03:45 PM »
Why not a TKS 80? If space is limited...


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Offline Prizen

  • Posts: 18
Re: Considering a Hammer K3 - What options do owners recommend?
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2020, 04:33 PM »
I can Definitely fit a K3 without outrigger. I could manage to have an outrigger installed and use it occasionally, bit leaving it installed wouldn't be an option. I guess I could either order without outrigger initially and see how things go, or bite the bullet and order with the outrigger and install/remove it as necessary.

Offline Tom Gensmer

  • Posts: 727
  • Residential Remodeler in Minnesota
Re: Considering a Hammer K3 - What options do owners recommend?
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2020, 06:37 PM »
Prizen, this may be a stretch but have you considered a B3 (saw/shaper)? I recently ordered a KF700SP, it hasn’t arrived yet (predicted arrival is January 2021), but I’m already very thankful that I added the shaper option given my current shop work. Also, if you’re short on shop space, having the integrated shaper could help eliminate a router table. I ordered the 1-1/4” spindle, as well as the high speed router spindle with 1/2” and 1/4” collets. May eventually add a 30mm spindle to complete the set.....
CT-MIDI, C-18, RO-150, RO-90, OF-1010, OF-1400, MFK-700, MFK-700EQ/B, EHL-65, DTS-400, LS-130, MFT/3 (x4), MFT/Kapex (x3), KA 65 Conturo, endless Systainers

Offline infer

  • Posts: 83
Re: Considering a Hammer K3 - What options do owners recommend?
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2020, 12:27 AM »
I am waiting for my K3 October delivery. It’s been 4 months since I paid for it.
I recommend getting the emergency stop, fine adjustment for fence and the mobility kit. Ext for crosscut fence is nice. If you get the Basic model with the 1250 slider you can upgrade to a outrigger at a later date. My space is very limited so I got the smallest config available. Big increase in price for just a longer slider though.

Offline derekcohen

  • Posts: 490
    • In The Woodshop
Re: Considering a Hammer K3 - What options do owners recommend?
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2020, 12:30 AM »
Hello All

I am considering a Hammer K3, (or perhaps a Minimax SC2). Space is quite limited so I don't think I have room for the outrigger table for panel crosscuts therefore ruling out the K3 Winner Comfort (the one with the outrigger table attached to the sliding table as standard).

Some of the options remaining on their Basic/Winner Lines include:

Sliding Table itself: Length of 800mm (base option) or 1250mm

Fences
Crosscut Fence: 900mm (base) or add 750mm extension
Rip Fence: Basic Rip Fence / Rip Fence with Large round bar / Cast iron rip fence rip capacity 800mm
Fine adjustment for pro rip fence

Saw unit
Scoring: No / Yes
Dado Unit: I am in Europe, didnt know these were allowed? Anyone have any experience?

Other
Rolling castors + Lifting bar

Anyone owners past or present care to share their experience? Oh, I intend on using this saw for a variety of work, some panels, some boards etc.

Thanks

Hi Prizen

I have the K3 Winner with 1250 wagon (it actually rips 1345mm), along with the Professional (upgraded) fence (the one on the round bar), no scoring unit, and I do not do dados on a table saw.

My target area is solid wood furniture. I do not work with MDF or chipboard. If you work with melamine coatings, then you need a scoring blade. Not relevant for me.

My space is limited to a double garage (and half of this is for machines, the other half for hand tools) ...

Older photos ...





The K3 has received a number of modifications/additions to improve it. One is the Wixey digital gauge ...



Another was the addition of a router table to the outfeed ...



Read up on Fritz & Frans jig - lots on YouTube. The wagon without the outrigger requires that it work in reverse. Consequently I designed a "reversed F&F jig" ...



Using the F&F makes you aware that a 800mm wagon is too short. Do not be tempted to get one. The 1250 works well (and there are ways to make it work longer - more on this another time).

Regards from Perth

Derek
Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on joinery, hand tools, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

Offline MikkelF

  • Posts: 12
Re: Considering a Hammer K3 - What options do owners recommend?
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2020, 04:51 AM »
I also just ordered a Hammer K3. I went with the basic version to limit the footprint. I also added the following:
- Scoring blade
- Autostart of other machines
- Dado prep.
- 1250 mm slider
- 900 + 1300 mm crosscut fence with extension (will use it as my precision chop saw)
- Table extension
- Updated 90-degree stop (Marius Hornberger style)
- Mitre fence with precision mitre guide
- A cross and a rip saw blade

I didn't order the outrigger since Im using the TSO parallel guide and FS2700 / FS1400 for cross and rip cuts of sheet goods.
I like to do bigger pieces such as Tables, sofa tables, Lounge chairs, wall decorations... It's european style meaning clean lines and not raised doors etc. It also means I work with both hardwood (a lot of oak) and sheet material (MDF and plywood) as a busy weekend warrior ;-)

But im really in doubt about:
- Should I spend additionally $1.500 to upgrade it to a B3 instead - and having a shaper build in would you say that would eliminate the need for a dedicated router table? If that's the case the real price increase would be decreased to somewhere around $500 and I would save some precious floor space.

- Im also thinking about purchasing the N3800 Bandsaw, but that would definitely steal the budget for the shaper / router table, so not sure if I should put that on hold since I can always buy one of those. How much do you guys use your band saw vs. router table or shapers?

- Im my somewhat limited in space I think I'll go with the Bora mobile base. Anything that need to be customized to their bases to fit the K3?





Offline hdv

  • Posts: 196
Re: Considering a Hammer K3 - What options do owners recommend?
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2020, 06:08 AM »
As the owner of a C3-31 I can tell you that having a shaper to your disposal is great, but I would never give up my router table because of that. I do have the add-ons to use the shaper as a router table, but find that setting up my Incra router table is much more convenient for routing small stuff.

Offline egmiii

  • Posts: 188
Re: Considering a Hammer K3 - What options do owners recommend?
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2020, 10:02 AM »
I would look at the cost of shaper tooling before you decide on the B3. Generally the tooling exceeds the cost of the machine. That being said, a shaper is an amazing tool and I wouldn't be without one. I also have a router table. Bits are comparatively cheap and there is a ton of options.

Offline MikkelF

  • Posts: 12
Re: Considering a Hammer K3 - What options do owners recommend?
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2020, 01:54 PM »
Thanks, but still in doubt. Ordering the K3 without the shaper means it will be a lot more expensive to get a shaper later + the additional space required for a stand-alone machine - on the other hand what do you guys typically use your shaper for that you either cant do with your router table or a dado on your saw? I’m still not convinced if I need the shaper or not... so maybe your use-cases can help me decide where to best spend my budget :-)
« Last Edit: October 07, 2020, 02:48 PM by MikkelF »

Offline derekcohen

  • Posts: 490
    • In The Woodshop
Re: Considering a Hammer K3 - What options do owners recommend?
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2020, 07:46 PM »
What do you build?

Do you use a router table much?

Regards from Perth

Derek
Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on joinery, hand tools, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

Offline MikkelF

  • Posts: 12
Re: Considering a Hammer K3 - What options do owners recommend?
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2020, 08:06 AM »
Hi Derek,

Thank you for your reply. Regarding what I want to build - I think it's better if I share a link to Pinterest projects that I use as inspiration: My Pinterest inspiration As you might notice it's mainly "italian styling" using earth color paint and blend that with natural wood as contrast to each other.

I haven't used a router table to date but instead a router and a straight-edge clamp. I haven't had room for a router table in my old workshop. Im currently in the process of building a new workshop with around 240 sq. ft. compared to 100 sq. ft. in my old shop, so more space, but still not a huge shop:

Exterior (Current progress)
Interior (Computer sketch)

The K3 is to be delivered in Jan 21 which I will use to build the interior cabinets and tables :-)

Ps. Sorry for hijacking the thread, but I think a lot of potential K3 buyers are having the same considerations regarding K3 or B3 vs. router tables

Offline derekcohen

  • Posts: 490
    • In The Woodshop
Re: Considering a Hammer K3 - What options do owners recommend?
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2020, 09:15 AM »
Mikke, I am probably the last person to advise on a router table vs a shaper. I do not have a shaper. Never used one. And I barely use the router table - building a nice, new one (above) was just fun for me - I usually build a tool or fixture between a furniture project.

My router use is predominantly hand held, and even then not that much as I prefer to use hand tools. The pride of my shop is my work bench. Still, I get a lot of use from my Hammers:  K3 sliding saw, the A3-31 combo jointer-thicknesser/planer, and N4400 bandsaw.

To give you an idea of the furniture I build without the use of either a shaper or router table, this is a piece of mine that was featured in the gallery of the latest FWW magazine ...



FWW did not include these ...





You appear to like Mid Century designs. Here is another of mine ....





My website is here:  http://www.inthewoodshop.com/index.html

Having all the tools/machines is not necessary. The furniture you link to is simple to construct and I really would have little need for a shaper.

Regards from Perth

Derek
Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on joinery, hand tools, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

Offline MikkelF

  • Posts: 12
Re: Considering a Hammer K3 - What options do owners recommend?
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2020, 10:10 AM »
Wow, you are a really talented craftsman! Thats some really beautiful pieces with attention to details :-)
These examples gives me comfort that I don't really need the shaper... having in mind my preference for simplistic design. This also supports my plan for getting the N4400/N3800 and the A3-31 spiral next.

What are other FOG members using their shapers for?

Offline hdv

  • Posts: 196
Re: Considering a Hammer K3 - What options do owners recommend?
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2020, 01:06 PM »
Well, I bought my C3-31 when my new house was built a bit more than 5 years ago. I have used the shaper for things like window frames, door frames, and pieces that required large rebates. I was planning on doing all kinds of profiles as well, but in the end didn't like the look of it and stuck to square cuts. All in all not something everyone will do on a regular basis. After my house was finished I have used the shaper significantly less.

Offline MikkelF

  • Posts: 12
Re: Considering a Hammer K3 - What options do owners recommend?
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2020, 04:48 PM »
Thats exactly the use-cases where I would imagine a shaper would shine.
As you Im also mostly into square or mitered cuts using dominos for easev of mind on the glue ups. Thanks again for your comments

Others who has similar experience with their shapers?

Offline cider

  • Posts: 24
Re: Considering a Hammer K3 - What options do owners recommend?
« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2020, 12:22 AM »
- Should I spend additionally $1.500 to upgrade it to a B3 instead - and having a shaper build in would you say that would eliminate the need for a dedicated router table? If that's the case the real price increase would be decreased to somewhere around $500 and I would save some precious floor space.

Only you can answer this, but my guess is that if you don't know whether or not you need it, you can probably live without it.  I bought a B3 about two years ago with no shaper experience, and knowing what I know now, I'm still not sure if I would have bought the shaper again.  IMO, a shaper can't do everything a router table can do (and vice versa).

Shaper tooling is expensive (and you can't run down to Woodcraft and grab a new cutter), and the fence is a heavy beast that you have to store somewhere and set up when you want to use the spindle.  Upsides compared to the router?  It's quieter (or at least less annoying), has better dust collection, often has better cut quality, and it can remove more material than a router could ever dream of.  Also, the B3 has a tilting spindle, and it's reversible (so you can flip the cutter over); two features I've personally never seen on a router table.

For small jobs or little profiles I use the router.  If I need to process a lot of stock or remove a lot of material, I set up the shaper and use it. 
« Last Edit: October 09, 2020, 12:27 AM by cider »

Offline MikkelF

  • Posts: 12
Re: Considering a Hammer K3 - What options do owners recommend?
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2020, 03:54 PM »
Im sticking with the K3. Thanks for all the input it really helped me clear my mind about what I “need”  ;)

Offline derekcohen

  • Posts: 490
    • In The Woodshop
Re: Considering a Hammer K3 - What options do owners recommend?
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2020, 10:47 PM »
Mikke, I think you will be very happy with your choice. It is inevitable that there will be some second doubts later, but be reassured that the absence of a machine should never limit or restrict anyone ... just create a reason to find another route.

Regards from Perth

Derek
Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on joinery, hand tools, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

Offline MikkelF

  • Posts: 12
Re: Considering a Hammer K3 - What options do owners recommend?
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2020, 05:19 AM »
Thank you Derek - I absolutely agree 8)

Offline casper

  • Posts: 22
Re: Considering a Hammer K3 - What options do owners recommend?
« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2020, 11:45 PM »
My take on what accessories to order, please keep in mind you can order a basic machine and add anything available later and the cost works out about the same. The K3 is like a Meccano set in that any accessory available for it can be fitted by the owner later on. I would not buy the shorter table for a bet but I have a large workshop so space is not a problem. I added the outrigger later on and fitting it was a bolt on job. There is an advantage to doing this as well, buying the basic saw sans outrigger means you receive it fitted with the cross cut fence fitted to the operator end and one of those weird grey tables for outboard support and that works well. Adding the outrigger later on gives you the outrigger with another cross cut fence so you then have the choice of either fence in front or rear configurations.

The fine adjustment is a great addition if you do as Derek and myself have done and add a DRO to the rip fence. No more tapping and nudging is needed, get it close and wind the final bit to the dimension needed. One thing I did which I haven't seen any others do is because I rip using the slider most of the time I don't need a full length rip fence and it only gets in the way. I bought another fence and cut it up into 200mm lengths and use this short fence/DRO as a dimension stop for cross cutting. I got four lengths out of a full length fence and sold the other three to pay for the purchase. The full length rip fence sits on a wall for the few times it is needed, just remove the short one and fit the longer one.

I bought the dado arbour kit and didn't use it for years because I simply was not going to pay the price for the Felder version as good as it may be. I bought a unused 8" CMT kit second hand and drilled the pin holes in it (my tool maker B in L did it) and I was not impressed with the results until I got a saw doctor to grind the outer diameters flat again and re-sharpen the cutters and now it is perfect, absolutely awesome in fact. If you want to do dados deeper than about 15mm then buy a six inch set, the problem is that the tabs to hold the zero clearance insert prevent the eight inch set being raised beyond about 15mm above the table, an angle grinder would fix the issue but I suspect few owners would want to cut the tabs off.

I bought one of the Felder/Leitz diamond blades as well recently and instantly all my other blades became redundent, they are eye wateringly expensive but all the blades I have cost me way more than a single diamond blade. I no longer have to change blades to rip or cross cut and there is no splintering or chipping on plywood or melamine so it makes the scoring blade redundant for all practicle purposes. It is also way more quiter than a standard blade, astonishingly so in fact. Felder also supply a 5mm slotting blade which is a really nice thing and not much more expensive than a branded normal blade which is a bit of a change.   

You cannot operate the K3 without a dust extractor hooked up to the cabinet port, I've tried and it doesn't work! [crying] [mad]

Buy the saw and forget everything you learned using a cabinet saw. Youtube has some really good videos but the best ones are done by Sam Blascoe who is a Minimax rep and knows all about sliders and how to use them, definitely required viewing. Steve Rowe also has a series and shows his version of a F&F jig that is worth watching. There are plenty of others and a few who have never gotten rid of cabinet saw thinking and are critical of sliders and the K3.
   

Offline cider

  • Posts: 24
Re: Considering a Hammer K3 - What options do owners recommend?
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2020, 04:02 PM »
I was curious about those diamond blades.  Firsthand reports are scarce.  One thing I've noticed with the scoring blade is that it goes very slightly out of adjustment occasionally.  I feel like I have to test it out before cutting something important if I've raised/lowered it much or changed blades.  I also discovered that the kerf tolerances on the cheap Tenryu blades aren't very good, which makes matching multiple blades with the scoring blade an exercise in futility.  I ended up buying nicer blades which are true to size.  Add all that up and I could have bought a diamond blade with money to spare :) 

In any case, it doesn't look like they're on the US Felder e-shop any more.

Offline casper

  • Posts: 22
Re: Considering a Hammer K3 - What options do owners recommend?
« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2020, 07:41 PM »
Leitz sell what I am led to believe is the same blade under their brand, at least they do in Oz. Using one actually saves a lot of money and they are simply are great blade and it never needs to be changed. I am sure Felder would get one in or you could buy one from a distribtor in another country but that seems to be something that people in the US are reluctant to do for some reason where we in Oz do it routinely.  One exception I would make would be never to use it when resawing wood that has previously been used even if it has been checked with a metal detector.