Author Topic: Coming to grips with my vises...  (Read 5117 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 2222
Coming to grips with my vises...
« on: December 24, 2021, 11:25 AM »
I suppose I've been indulging in some new vises.  [big grin]

After years of relying on various clamps for work holding, I've added several vintage vises to the fleet, and belatedly realized how useful they are. I've been clamping stuff for cutting, filing etc. and sometimes really sketchy workholding setups resulted. As usual, lack of space in the little shop meant I had to skip the mega bench mounted Wilton I lusted for, but eBay provided some great finds.

For metalworking, after looking at every large bench vise out there and not wanting to sacrifice a corner of the welding table to it, I realized a woodworking vise was a great option. This Wilton corner vise is perfect and didn't take up any work surface.







Doubles as a drill vise for big stuff.



The old Will Burt is awesome for fine work, but I still wanted a traditional bench vise.



Eventually came across a 3" cutie that I can mount to a plate and move around as needed.



Mounting plate is a holiday week project. I'm thinking perhaps a 5/8" hole pattern on 2" centers to fit the welding table and some countersunk threaded inserts in another work surface so I can swap it around when I need the top clear for jigging up stuff to weld.

Being on a roll, I found a really nice Morgan that I plan to quick-mount to the 80/20 Sys Cart for woodworking. It's winging its way to me now.



About the only thing lacking is the big-iron-whack-it-with-a-3-pound-sledge vise, there's just no room for it.

Any thoughts/suggestions from your personal vises?

RMW


As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Sparktrician

  • Posts: 4260
Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2021, 12:33 PM »
Richard, you're a one-man vise squad...   [big grin]   [big grin]
- Willy -

  "Show us a man who never makes a mistake and we will show a man who never makes anything. 
  The capacity for occasional blundering is inseparable from the capacity to bring things to pass."

 - Herman Lincoln Wayland (1830-1898)

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 3473
Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2021, 01:09 PM »
Those vises are robust!

As a woodworker, I have only a small metal vise for my primitive metal needs.

A few years ago before the pandemic, I fabricated (with $50 Cdn of supplies) and added a tail vise to the bench, which is useful for hand-tool woodworking.

Offline Bob D.

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 2681
    • My Cordless Workshop
Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2021, 03:23 PM »
The Wilton corner vise is a nice add to the welding bench.

Do you have a tree stump or large section of log you could mount the big vise on in a manner similar to an anvil?

If not, there is likely to be someone cutting a tree down not far from you.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 2222
Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2021, 04:53 PM »
The Wilton corner vise is a nice add to the welding bench.

Do you have a tree stump or large section of log you could mount the big vise on in a manner similar to an anvil?

If not, there is likely to be someone cutting a tree down not far from you.

Bob, I got one, from a neighbor's yard, several years back for that very purpose. It ended up being repurposed as a beverage stand...



RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 2222
Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2021, 07:16 PM »
Those vises are robust!

As a woodworker, I have only a small metal vise for my primitive metal needs.

A few years ago before the pandemic, I fabricated (with $50 Cdn of supplies) and added a tail vise to the bench, which is useful for hand-tool woodworking.

Dang! I just realized that you flipped a vise over to get the tail vise, brilliant. Thanks for sharing.

RMW
« Last Edit: December 25, 2021, 05:32 AM by Richard/RMW »
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 3473
Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2021, 07:39 PM »
Good eye.

Something similar to this $29.50CAD vise (which wasn't carried by LVT at that time): https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/workshop/workbenches/vises/110469-toolmakers-vise?item=70G1115

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 9648
Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2021, 10:32 PM »
Oh this could be interesting.... [popcorn]

The Wilton on the welding table is a good score Richard.

So many vises...so little time.

Offline rvieceli

  • Posts: 1676
Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2021, 09:42 AM »
Here’s my go to:



Red Seal 55 by American Scale Co. 5 inch jaws.

Got it at a yard sale.

Ron

Offline BarneyD

  • Posts: 108
Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2021, 10:01 AM »
I got this one from my FIL about 50 years ago. Tried to buy the missing jaw from Sears, but they said that model is not even in their system. Craftsman Model 5152 4" jaws.

Barney

Offline Bob D.

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 2681
    • My Cordless Workshop
Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2021, 01:59 PM »
Those vises are robust!

As a woodworker, I have only a small metal vise for my primitive metal needs.

A few years ago before the pandemic, I fabricated (with $50 Cdn of supplies) and added a tail vise to the bench, which is useful for hand-tool woodworking.

Dang! I just realized that you flipped a vise over to get the tail vise, brilliant. Thanks for sharing.

RMW

I noticed that too, pretty slick idea.

OK on the stump. Makes a nice table.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 2222
Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2021, 03:55 PM »
Here’s my go to:

(Attachment Link)

Red Seal 55 by American Scale Co. 5 inch jaws.

Got it at a yard sale.

Ron

Ron that's the basic setup I'm jonesing for but just don't have the floor space. I'd really like to have a blacksmith leg vise with about 100# of ballast in the base.



Same problem with the vise on a stump, it'ud hafta live outdoors which doesn't work in my climate.

RMW



As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 2222
Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2022, 09:40 AM »
The latest (& last?) member of the fleet arrived. It's a beauty, and oddly enough the second time I've owned this exact same model vise. The first one went to a new home (attached to a large maple bench) after we moved to the shore and I'd given up my large shop, I've always missed that vise.

The Morgan 200 is fast acting (partial turn to engage/disengage the screw), 10" wide with 12" capacity. When it came up on eBay $200 seemed like a deal from Oregon to my back yard.

Anyway, it needed an interface to mount to the 1530 extrusion, so Saturday involved some metalwork. Started with 1/4" cold roll, 3-3/4" wide. Forming taps are my 2021 find of the year, I didn't know they existed & I've always used thread cutting taps.













Sits nicely below the level of the top, shouldn't interfere with using a track saw.




 
Still need to remove & finish somehow & add jaw faces. In theory I can loosen the fasteners and slide it anywhere along the extrusion, but experience dictates it may never move again.

I think spring will be about time to put some lipstick on the shop, it's looking a mite beat up.

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 9648
Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2022, 12:20 PM »
That Morgan's nice Richard...reminds me of the early Record 53 although the 2 tie rods look larger on the Morgan.

The last time I checked (about 4-5 years ago) on thread forming taps, the only items available were from Guhring and they cost around $50-$75 each. They needed a ton of force, a ton of speed and a ton of lubricant, not easily performed operations in a small home shop.

This new version appears to be formed using just a hand operated impact gun? Is that correct?

Who makes the taps and please share your thoughts on the process. I assume you thread formed the cold rolled?

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 5455
Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2022, 02:28 PM »
I guess the pilot hole for a thread forming tap is larger? How is that determined?

Offline Bob D.

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 2681
    • My Cordless Workshop
Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2022, 02:50 PM »
I checked McMaster and they have many sizes (both uncoated HSS and TiN HSS)
most in the $12 to $40 depending on the diameter.

https://www.mcmaster.com/forming-taps/
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 9648
Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2022, 03:16 PM »
I guess the pilot hole for a thread forming tap is larger? How is that determined?

From what I remember about Guhring, they were less critical about the pilot hole size but I presume that was because they were just applying brute force to complete the job.

These newer taps seem to be more nuanced and they talk about the criticality of the actual HOLE diameter and not the drill diameter. They recommend several hole sizes based on the percentage of thread that's required. However, they go on to say that it's best to drill the hole and experiment with the drilled hole size. [tongue]

One manufacturer referred to a hole diameter changing by .001" would increase/decrease the percentage of thread by 10%...that's a ton.

I'd like to learn more about this latest generation of thread forming taps, specifically if they are this sensitive to hole diameter because that could be a real challenge. No more hand sharpening of drill bits.  [unsure]

Offline Rob Z

  • Posts: 1077
Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2022, 03:20 PM »
Has anyone repainted a Record vise with a color that's close to the factory color?  If so, please share what you used.  I found a brand and color that is sold in the UK, but I haven't seen it available here in the US.

I have an older Record vise that is in good mechanical shape after an extensive cleaning. I would like to tart it up a bit with a fresh coat of paint.  [smile]

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 2222
Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2022, 04:09 PM »
@Cheese it took me forever to track down the forming taps, finally bought my most common sizes from a seller on Amazon, Suncoast Precision Tools. I kept seeing taps used on YT (The Metalist) but couldn't figure out what they were.

Yes, pilot is slightly larger than a thread cutting tap, L drill for the 5/16-18 I used. .033" larger than for a cutting tap in this case.

When the tap arrived they'd included a tap/drill chart with pilot hole specs for both.







Really happy with these YG taps, I'm probably going to invest in a set soon.

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 2222
Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2022, 04:19 PM »
I checked McMaster and they have many sizes (both uncoated HSS and TiN HSS)
most in the $12 to $40 depending on the diameter.

https://www.mcmaster.com/forming-taps/

MMC states the threads are stronger, I've torqued down pretty good into 1/4" CR with no issues. With my common sizes of M6 M8 1/4" 5/16" I have zero problem plowing thru 1/2" CR steel with an impact driver.



RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 9648
Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2022, 04:21 PM »
So Richard you just drill the hole, place the tap in a holder and chuck it into the impact wrench?

Any issues with breaking taps?


Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 2222
Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2022, 04:26 PM »
That Morgan's nice Richard...reminds me of the early Record 53 although the 2 tie rods look larger on the Morgan.

The last time I checked (about 4-5 years ago) on thread forming taps, the only items available were from Guhring and they cost around $50-$75 each. They needed a ton of force, a ton of speed and a ton of lubricant, not easily performed operations in a small home shop.

This new version appears to be formed using just a hand operated impact gun? Is that correct?

Who makes the taps and please share your thoughts on the process. I assume you thread formed the cold rolled?

@Cheese mostly answered in the prior posts but yes, power tapped using the impact driver on #2 speed setting with a couple drops of Tap Magic and I've had zero issues. YG taps, I suspect they are best used under power, probably not suitable for hand tapping.

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 2222
Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2022, 04:28 PM »
So Richard you just drill the hole, place the tap in a holder and chuck it into the impact wrench?

Any issues with breaking taps?

Yup & nope. I'll try to grab video next time, only issue is taking my finger off the trigger fast enough, I normally run past the threads before I get it stopped. 100% recommended.

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline rvieceli

  • Posts: 1676
Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2022, 04:37 PM »

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 5455
Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2022, 06:20 PM »
So Richard you just drill the hole, place the tap in a holder and chuck it into the impact wrench?

Any issues with breaking taps?

What kind of holder secures a square ended tap?

Offline squall_line

  • Posts: 1385
Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2022, 06:28 PM »
So Richard you just drill the hole, place the tap in a holder and chuck it into the impact wrench?

Any issues with breaking taps?

What kind of holder secures a square ended tap?

I would assume you use a standard jacob's chuck around the round part of the shank.

Offline tsmi243

  • Posts: 245
Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2022, 09:44 PM »


What kind of holder secures a square ended tap?


I've used these with regular cutting taps.  There's some wiggle in the square end, but it never seemed to hurt anything.

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 2222
Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2022, 09:59 PM »
Lisle Tap Sockets. Basically the same as the Irwin.



With a 1/4" hex adapter.

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 2222
Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2022, 11:09 PM »
I hadn't done much research on form/roll tapping but all the questions got me curious. MSC has a page with a ton of good  info:

https://www.mscdirect.com/basicsof/thread-forming-taps

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 9648
Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2022, 11:25 PM »
I also use the Lisle sockets for conventional taps...the issue is drills have soft shafts and so they chuck up tightly (deform) in the drill chuck, taps have hardened shafts and if you try to chuck them up they simply spin in the chuck. Your only alternative to drive hardened cylindrical shafts is to use diamond imbedded chucks...ya that's expensive.  [smile]

This is the same problem when you chuck up end mills in drill presses. That's where collets come in.