Festool Owners Group

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS => Other Tools & Accessories => Topic started by: Richard/RMW on December 24, 2021, 11:25 AM

Title: Coming to grips with my vises...
Post by: Richard/RMW on December 24, 2021, 11:25 AM
I suppose I've been indulging in some new vises.  [big grin]

After years of relying on various clamps for work holding, I've added several vintage vises to the fleet, and belatedly realized how useful they are. I've been clamping stuff for cutting, filing etc. and sometimes really sketchy workholding setups resulted. As usual, lack of space in the little shop meant I had to skip the mega bench mounted Wilton I lusted for, but eBay provided some great finds.

For metalworking, after looking at every large bench vise out there and not wanting to sacrifice a corner of the welding table to it, I realized a woodworking vise was a great option. This Wilton corner vise is perfect and didn't take up any work surface.

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

[attachimg=3]

Doubles as a drill vise for big stuff.

[attachimg=4]

The old Will Burt is awesome for fine work, but I still wanted a traditional bench vise.

[attachimg=5]

Eventually came across a 3" cutie that I can mount to a plate and move around as needed.

[attachimg=6]

Mounting plate is a holiday week project. I'm thinking perhaps a 5/8" hole pattern on 2" centers to fit the welding table and some countersunk threaded inserts in another work surface so I can swap it around when I need the top clear for jigging up stuff to weld.

Being on a roll, I found a really nice Morgan that I plan to quick-mount to the 80/20 Sys Cart for woodworking. It's winging its way to me now.

[attachimg=7]

About the only thing lacking is the big-iron-whack-it-with-a-3-pound-sledge vise, there's just no room for it.

Any thoughts/suggestions from your personal vises?

RMW


Title: Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
Post by: Sparktrician on December 24, 2021, 12:33 PM
Richard, you're a one-man vise squad...   [big grin]   [big grin]
Title: Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
Post by: ChuckS on December 24, 2021, 01:09 PM
Those vises are robust!

As a woodworker, I have only a small metal vise for my primitive metal needs.

A few years ago before the pandemic, I fabricated (with $50 Cdn of supplies) and added a tail vise to the bench, which is useful for hand-tool woodworking.
Title: Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
Post by: Bob D. on December 24, 2021, 03:23 PM
The Wilton corner vise is a nice add to the welding bench.

Do you have a tree stump or large section of log you could mount the big vise on in a manner similar to an anvil?

If not, there is likely to be someone cutting a tree down not far from you.
Title: Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
Post by: Richard/RMW on December 24, 2021, 04:53 PM
The Wilton corner vise is a nice add to the welding bench.

Do you have a tree stump or large section of log you could mount the big vise on in a manner similar to an anvil?

If not, there is likely to be someone cutting a tree down not far from you.

Bob, I got one, from a neighbor's yard, several years back for that very purpose. It ended up being repurposed as a beverage stand (https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/workshops-and-mobile-vehicle-based-shops/my-new-stump/msg624929/#msg624929)...

[attachimg=1]

RMW
Title: Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
Post by: Richard/RMW on December 24, 2021, 07:16 PM
Those vises are robust!

As a woodworker, I have only a small metal vise for my primitive metal needs.

A few years ago before the pandemic, I fabricated (with $50 Cdn of supplies) and added a tail vise to the bench, which is useful for hand-tool woodworking.

Dang! I just realized that you flipped a vise over to get the tail vise, brilliant. Thanks for sharing.

RMW
Title: Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
Post by: ChuckS on December 24, 2021, 07:39 PM
Good eye.

Something similar to this $29.50CAD vise (which wasn't carried by LVT at that time): https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/workshop/workbenches/vises/110469-toolmakers-vise?item=70G1115
Title: Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
Post by: Cheese on December 24, 2021, 10:32 PM
Oh this could be interesting.... [popcorn]

The Wilton on the welding table is a good score Richard.

So many vises...so little time.
Title: Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
Post by: rvieceli on December 25, 2021, 09:42 AM
Here’s my go to:

[attachimg=1]

Red Seal 55 by American Scale Co. 5 inch jaws.

Got it at a yard sale.

Ron
Title: Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
Post by: BarneyD on December 25, 2021, 10:01 AM
I got this one from my FIL about 50 years ago. Tried to buy the missing jaw from Sears, but they said that model is not even in their system. Craftsman Model 5152 4" jaws.

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
Post by: Bob D. on December 25, 2021, 01:59 PM
Those vises are robust!

As a woodworker, I have only a small metal vise for my primitive metal needs.

A few years ago before the pandemic, I fabricated (with $50 Cdn of supplies) and added a tail vise to the bench, which is useful for hand-tool woodworking.

Dang! I just realized that you flipped a vise over to get the tail vise, brilliant. Thanks for sharing.

RMW

I noticed that too, pretty slick idea.

OK on the stump. Makes a nice table.
Title: Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
Post by: Richard/RMW on December 25, 2021, 03:55 PM
Here’s my go to:

(Attachment Link)

Red Seal 55 by American Scale Co. 5 inch jaws.

Got it at a yard sale.

Ron

Ron that's the basic setup I'm jonesing for but just don't have the floor space. I'd really like to have a blacksmith leg vise with about 100# of ballast in the base.

[attachimg=1]

Same problem with the vise on a stump, it'ud hafta live outdoors which doesn't work in my climate.

RMW



Title: Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
Post by: Richard/RMW on January 10, 2022, 09:40 AM
The latest (& last?) member of the fleet arrived. It's a beauty, and oddly enough the second time I've owned this exact same model vise. The first one went to a new home (attached to a large maple bench) after we moved to the shore and I'd given up my large shop, I've always missed that vise.

The Morgan 200 is fast acting (partial turn to engage/disengage the screw), 10" wide with 12" capacity. When it came up on eBay $200 seemed like a deal from Oregon to my back yard.

Anyway, it needed an interface to mount to the 1530 extrusion, so Saturday involved some metalwork. Started with 1/4" cold roll, 3-3/4" wide. Forming taps are my 2021 find of the year, I didn't know they existed & I've always used thread cutting taps.

[attachimg=8]

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

[attachimg=3]

[attachimg=4]

[attachimg=5]

Sits nicely below the level of the top, shouldn't interfere with using a track saw.

[attachimg=6]

[attachimg=7]
 
Still need to remove & finish somehow & add jaw faces. In theory I can loosen the fasteners and slide it anywhere along the extrusion, but experience dictates it may never move again.

I think spring will be about time to put some lipstick on the shop, it's looking a mite beat up.

RMW
Title: Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
Post by: Cheese on January 11, 2022, 12:20 PM
That Morgan's nice Richard...reminds me of the early Record 53 although the 2 tie rods look larger on the Morgan.

The last time I checked (about 4-5 years ago) on thread forming taps, the only items available were from Guhring and they cost around $50-$75 each. They needed a ton of force, a ton of speed and a ton of lubricant, not easily performed operations in a small home shop.

This new version appears to be formed using just a hand operated impact gun? Is that correct?

Who makes the taps and please share your thoughts on the process. I assume you thread formed the cold rolled?
Title: Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
Post by: Michael Kellough on January 11, 2022, 02:28 PM
I guess the pilot hole for a thread forming tap is larger? How is that determined?
Title: Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
Post by: Bob D. on January 11, 2022, 02:50 PM
I checked McMaster and they have many sizes (both uncoated HSS and TiN HSS)
most in the $12 to $40 depending on the diameter.

https://www.mcmaster.com/forming-taps/
Title: Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
Post by: Cheese on January 11, 2022, 03:16 PM
I guess the pilot hole for a thread forming tap is larger? How is that determined?

From what I remember about Guhring, they were less critical about the pilot hole size but I presume that was because they were just applying brute force to complete the job.

These newer taps seem to be more nuanced and they talk about the criticality of the actual HOLE diameter and not the drill diameter. They recommend several hole sizes based on the percentage of thread that's required. However, they go on to say that it's best to drill the hole and experiment with the drilled hole size. [tongue]

One manufacturer referred to a hole diameter changing by .001" would increase/decrease the percentage of thread by 10%...that's a ton.

I'd like to learn more about this latest generation of thread forming taps, specifically if they are this sensitive to hole diameter because that could be a real challenge. No more hand sharpening of drill bits.  [unsure]
Title: Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
Post by: Rob Z on January 11, 2022, 03:20 PM
Has anyone repainted a Record vise with a color that's close to the factory color?  If so, please share what you used.  I found a brand and color that is sold in the UK, but I haven't seen it available here in the US.

I have an older Record vise that is in good mechanical shape after an extensive cleaning. I would like to tart it up a bit with a fresh coat of paint.  [smile]
Title: Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
Post by: Richard/RMW on January 11, 2022, 04:09 PM
@Cheese it took me forever to track down the forming taps, finally bought my most common sizes from a seller on Amazon, Suncoast Precision Tools. I kept seeing taps used on YT (The Metalist) but couldn't figure out what they were.

Yes, pilot is slightly larger than a thread cutting tap, L drill for the 5/16-18 I used. .033" larger than for a cutting tap in this case.

When the tap arrived they'd included a tap/drill chart with pilot hole specs for both.

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

[attachimg=3]

Really happy with these YG taps, I'm probably going to invest in a set soon.

RMW
Title: Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
Post by: Richard/RMW on January 11, 2022, 04:19 PM
I checked McMaster and they have many sizes (both uncoated HSS and TiN HSS)
most in the $12 to $40 depending on the diameter.

https://www.mcmaster.com/forming-taps/

MMC states the threads are stronger, I've torqued down pretty good into 1/4" CR with no issues. With my common sizes of M6 M8 1/4" 5/16" I have zero problem plowing thru 1/2" CR steel with an impact driver.

[attachimg=1]

RMW
Title: Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
Post by: Cheese on January 11, 2022, 04:21 PM
So Richard you just drill the hole, place the tap in a holder and chuck it into the impact wrench?

Any issues with breaking taps?

Title: Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
Post by: Richard/RMW on January 11, 2022, 04:26 PM
That Morgan's nice Richard...reminds me of the early Record 53 although the 2 tie rods look larger on the Morgan.

The last time I checked (about 4-5 years ago) on thread forming taps, the only items available were from Guhring and they cost around $50-$75 each. They needed a ton of force, a ton of speed and a ton of lubricant, not easily performed operations in a small home shop.

This new version appears to be formed using just a hand operated impact gun? Is that correct?

Who makes the taps and please share your thoughts on the process. I assume you thread formed the cold rolled?

@Cheese mostly answered in the prior posts but yes, power tapped using the impact driver on #2 speed setting with a couple drops of Tap Magic and I've had zero issues. YG taps, I suspect they are best used under power, probably not suitable for hand tapping.

RMW
Title: Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
Post by: Richard/RMW on January 11, 2022, 04:28 PM
So Richard you just drill the hole, place the tap in a holder and chuck it into the impact wrench?

Any issues with breaking taps?

Yup & nope. I'll try to grab video next time, only issue is taking my finger off the trigger fast enough, I normally run past the threads before I get it stopped. 100% recommended.

RMW
Title: Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
Post by: rvieceli on January 11, 2022, 04:37 PM
@Cheese  MSC has a big selection of the thread forming taps.

https://www.mscdirect.com/browse/tn/?searchterm=thread+forming+taps&hdrsrh=true&rd=k

Ron
Title: Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
Post by: Michael Kellough on January 11, 2022, 06:20 PM
So Richard you just drill the hole, place the tap in a holder and chuck it into the impact wrench?

Any issues with breaking taps?

What kind of holder secures a square ended tap?
Title: Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
Post by: squall_line on January 11, 2022, 06:28 PM
So Richard you just drill the hole, place the tap in a holder and chuck it into the impact wrench?

Any issues with breaking taps?

What kind of holder secures a square ended tap?

I would assume you use a standard jacob's chuck around the round part of the shank.
Title: Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
Post by: tsmi243 on January 11, 2022, 09:44 PM


What kind of holder secures a square ended tap?
(https://c1.neweggimages.com/ProductImage/A10Z_1_2019031010465099.jpg)

I've used these with regular cutting taps.  There's some wiggle in the square end, but it never seemed to hurt anything.
Title: Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
Post by: Richard/RMW on January 11, 2022, 09:59 PM
Lisle Tap Sockets (https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002SRFOE/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1). Basically the same as the Irwin.

[attachimg=1]

With a 1/4" hex adapter.

RMW
Title: Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
Post by: Richard/RMW on January 11, 2022, 11:09 PM
I hadn't done much research on form/roll tapping but all the questions got me curious. MSC has a page with a ton of good  info:

https://www.mscdirect.com/basicsof/thread-forming-taps

RMW
Title: Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
Post by: Cheese on January 11, 2022, 11:25 PM
I also use the Lisle sockets for conventional taps...the issue is drills have soft shafts and so they chuck up tightly (deform) in the drill chuck, taps have hardened shafts and if you try to chuck them up they simply spin in the chuck. Your only alternative to drive hardened cylindrical shafts is to use diamond imbedded chucks...ya that's expensive.  [smile]

This is the same problem when you chuck up end mills in drill presses. That's where collets come in.
Title: Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
Post by: Cheese on January 11, 2022, 11:38 PM
What kind of holder secures a square ended tap?

The Lisle tap holder sockets are the same as the Snap-on version, just priced at a 50% discount.  [big grin]  Lisle manufactures these for Snap-on.

This positive socket drive stuff always makes me nervous because I've had my share of hardened taps being broken off in various materials...and that is always a huge PITA.

Title: Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
Post by: Cheese on January 11, 2022, 11:59 PM
@Cheese  MSC has a big selection of the thread forming taps.

Hey Ron, thanks for the heads-up, I ran across that today after I read Richard's post.

I decided to investigate this new thread forming technology today on the MSC website.

When I first looked at it about 4-5 years ago MSC said there were about 100 thread forming taps available to purchase.

Today they said there were over 8000 taps available...how the world turns in just 4-5 years.
Title: Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
Post by: ChuckS on February 25, 2022, 11:07 AM


Dang! I just realized that you flipped a vise over to get the tail vise, brilliant. Thanks for sharing.

RMW

The toolmaker's vise is now back in stock! https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/workshop/workbenches/vises/110469-toolmakers-vise?item=70G1115

At $29.50 Cdn, it's pretty much the cheapest in the market, based on my previous research. I missed it last time, and I'm getting one now.
Title: Re: Coming to grips with my vises...
Post by: Cheese on February 25, 2022, 11:17 AM

The toolmaker's vise is now back in stock! https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/workshop/workbenches/vises/110469-toolmakers-vise?item=70G1115

At $29.50 Cdn, it's pretty much the cheapest in the market, based on my previous research. I missed it last time, and I'm getting one now.

That’s a really handy item Chuck…I keep a Palmgren version on the drill press table permanently. Just used it yesterday for drilling small aluminum parts. Dinner winner.  [smile]