Author Topic: ClearVue Fire Warning!  (Read 4285 times)

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Offline JonathanJung

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ClearVue Fire Warning!
« on: March 29, 2021, 12:50 AM »
*Don't start the motor more than 4 times per hour*

If you have a dust collector with a Leeson motor, such as I have on my 5hp ClearVue, that's the word of caution, right from the owner of ClearVue.

A week ago the motor on mine caught fire, nearly started my ceiling on fire. After much back and forth, overnighting a motor (this is my living), talking with Leeson, Clearvue, and others, it seems that starting/stopping too soon overheats the motor from the starting windings. So, don't start it up more than a few times every hour. This is exactly what the owner of ClearVue told me. Naturally, I was ticked and pointed out to him that this is not stated anywhere on their website or product manual. His response? "Yeah, I need to get someone on that."

So nearly $600 later I have a replacement motor, and to avoid burning it out too, I have to remember all day long not to cycle the unit on/off. The first motor lasted only 8 months of regular use, so fingers crossed this next one will be a champion.

Secondary moral to the story, never buy equipment needed to run for a living from a hobby-orientated company that doesn't stand behind its product. Hopefully a more commercially-targeted company would have such necessary info laid out.

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Offline ChuckM

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Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2021, 01:35 AM »
Based on what I can see in your post, isn't the merchant liable in a lawsuit (say, a house burnt down) for not giving a critical piece of product safety info.?

On the other hand, such operating limitation might affect future sales.

Offline Bernmc

  • Posts: 78
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2021, 04:39 AM »
pretty good argument for running a 3 phase motor and a VFD - that way you don't need to stop the motor. Just drop the revs way down with the VFD, and back up to full speed when you need the suction.

Offline Mini Me

  • Posts: 24
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2021, 06:45 AM »
pretty good argument for running a 3 phase motor and a VFD - that way you don't need to stop the motor. Just drop the revs way down with the VFD, and back up to full speed when you need the suction.

I second that Bernard. Over the years of dealing with this stuff the only way I would buy a single phase DE is with a gun pointed at my head. A VFD allows you to manage the DE by soft starts and instant speed and noise control. I start mine with no regard to times per hour and I often at a guess start it at least ten times per hour. The motor is a Leeson that is ten years old and has not given any signs of trouble.

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 2008
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2021, 07:12 AM »
*Don't start the motor more than 4 times per hour*

Does this carry over to other single phase 5hp or even 3hp motors like you would find in a table saw? How many of us have a TS with a 5hp motor, probably more than have a 5hp DE. My TS is only 3hp, but I don't recall reading anything that warned of repeated starts/stops or to being limited to any set number of starts per hour. I have often started my TS motor a dozen or more times in an hour. It's not the type of machine you want to leave running when not directly in use as we all know. So there must be some difference in the motors. What about other heavy iron in the shop with large motors.

Unrelated but a place I worked in the past had some huge, 2000hp motors that turned some equally sized pumps. The starting procedure only allowed one start every 45 minutes IF the winding temperature had dropped to some specified temp which I don't recall. The windings have thermocouples embedded in them to monitor temp at all times. I don't remember the starting amp draw but running I believe they were around 190A @ 4160v.

That would make a heck of a dust collector IF you could afford the electric.  [eek]
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline kevinculle

  • Posts: 418
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2021, 07:28 AM »
That seems a non-sensical constraint for a dust collector.  I have a 2HP, 1100 CFM unit that I routinely start and stop many times an hour...15-20 times would not be at all unusual as I work my way through operations on different machines.  It sounds like the motor duty cycle has not been properly matched to the typical operating regime of a dust collector.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1408
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2021, 08:35 AM »

Secondary moral to the story, never buy equipment needed to run for a living from a hobby-orientated company that doesn't stand behind its product. Hopefully a more commercially-targeted company would have such necessary info laid out.

This stands for most things. It's why you pay more for a big company most the time, but you get something that has had more design/testing/etc put into it (most the time, even big companies make mistakes). A lot of small companies, or 1 man operations are often started from "I could make that, and do it for less" mentality. Which is often what gets to the situation you have.

They have undersized the motor.  Maybe this was to save cost, or maybe a bigger motor would have too much inrush current. This can be managed with controls, but that is more money, or a separate small cooling fan, or a motor with bigger heat sink, or cooling.

Even if they did put the on/off limits in documentation (which would obviously kill sales), it's a ridiculous limit. Unless they put controls limits in there that prevent the user from doing it. If they have temp monitoring that prevented start, and or a soft shut down to let it cool down, then they could be in a better spot. But telling user they have to operate it in a special way, just will not work.

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 2008
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2021, 08:45 AM »
"But telling user they have to operate it in a special way, just will not work."

Especially since people in general are bad at reading manuals and following written instructions. And I am guilty of it my self with some things I buy, mostly low-priced electronic gizmos. I doubt any of us reads everything supplied with every device we buy or use.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline Mike Goetzke

  • Posts: 727
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2021, 08:57 AM »
I've had my CV1800 for 15 years now. I purchased it when it was under previous ownership. At that time I remember when installing mine I had an issue and the owner called me back on not only a Saturday but it was also the 4th of July. Maybe things have changed under new management. I'll take a look at my dated instructions but somehow I'm aware it doesn't like lots of starts/stops. I'm a hobbyist and in the habit of not shutting it down often. Like others say it has to do with the high startup current getting the high inertia blower up to speed.

Offline ChuckM

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Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2021, 09:39 AM »
"But telling user they have to operate it in a special way, just will not work."

Especially since people in general are bad at reading manuals and following written instructions. And I am guilty of it my self with some things I buy, mostly low-priced electronic gizmos. I doubt any of us reads everything supplied with every device we buy or use.

I must be one of the exceptions, partly because in a previous professional life, I produced manuals, or supervised and authorized the production of manuals as part of my responsibilities. I may skip some sections of a manual for a common device that I'm already familiar with, but I go through a manual for a new purchase in general.

It's ok to me if a machine needs to be operated in a certain way, but that instruction needs to be spelt out clearly to an owner or user, especially it's something about safety. I use most of my machines or tools in a stop-go, stop-go manner repeatedly, such as the SawStop, DF500, drill press, Kapex, cordless drills and routers. Oh well, too many to list out all of them...mine is not a production shop. I don't want any noisy machines running for no good reasons.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2021, 09:43 AM by ChuckM »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 8353
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2021, 09:51 AM »
....this is not stated anywhere on their website or product manual. His response? "Yeah, I need to get someone on that."

Sounds to me that he should direct someone into finding a substitute motor instead.   [scratch chin]

Selling this type of equipment with this type of operating directive is ludicrous. Just swap the Leeson for a Baldor motor, there isn't that much difference in cost.

Offline egmiii

  • Posts: 209
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2021, 10:17 AM »
It appears there is a bit of Clearvue bashing going on and I'd like to share my experience for those who stumble across this thread in the future.

They are a great company who stands behind the product. I've had several interactions with their sales and support staff. They are very helpful and knowledgeable.

The CV1800 provides a level of performance unmatched by anything close to it's price point. You will likely need to spend 3x as much to beat it. Plenty of production shops run them successfully.

Contrary to previous posts, the 5HP motor is adequately sized. It is of high quality. You should not start single phase 5HP and up motors with heavy fans/flywheels/etc attached more than 4-5 times per hour. The startup current is very high and will cook the windings. A Baldor would suffer the same fate. A 5HP table saw uses far less current because the blade weighs a fraction of what a dust collector fan weighs, so you can start and stop more often. If you would like to start and stop a 5HP and up motor more often, then you should use a 3 phase motor and programable VFD. You can program the motor to gently ramp up to full speed over a 10 second window. Clearvue has a 3 phase motor option. It's quite common in countries with 50hz power, as they use the VFD to generate 60hz power to maximize performance.

Granted, Clearvue should add this information to their documentation, but in their defense, it's fairly common knowledge amongst those familiar with industrial equipment. Yes, many hobbyists install them in their home shops, but this doesn't detract from the fact that it is a serious piece of equipment and should be treated with respect. Do your homework, and if you are not comfortable, but still need the performance, consider a more plug and play unit like the Felder RL200.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2021, 10:19 AM by egmiii »

Offline Banana

  • Posts: 72
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2021, 10:19 AM »
I certainly don't have all the information but if you are selling a motor that has a limited duty cycle then it seems only common sense that you would include built in thermal/overload protection if fire or permanent damage is a likely outcome, no?

Offline JonathanJung

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Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2021, 10:55 AM »
It appears there is a bit of Clearvue bashing going on and I'd like to share my experience for those who stumble across this thread in the future.

They are a great company who stands behind the product. I've had several interactions with their sales and support staff. They are very helpful and knowledgeable.

The CV1800 provides a level of performance unmatched by anything close to it's price point. You will likely need to spend 3x as much to beat it. Plenty of production shops run them successfully.

Contrary to previous posts, the 5HP motor is adequately sized. It is of high quality. You should not start single phase 5HP and up motors with heavy fans/flywheels/etc attached more than 4-5 times per hour. The startup current is very high and will cook the windings. A Baldor would suffer the same fate. A 5HP table saw uses far less current because the blade weighs a fraction of what a dust collector fan weighs, so you can start and stop more often. If you would like to start and stop a 5HP and up motor more often, then you should use a 3 phase motor and programable VFD. You can program the motor to gently ramp up to full speed over a 10 second window. Clearvue has a 3 phase motor option. It's quite common in countries with 50hz power, as they use the VFD to generate 60hz power to maximize performance.

Granted, Clearvue should add this information to their documentation, but in their defense, it's fairly common knowledge amongst those familiar with industrial equipment. Yes, many hobbyists install them in their home shops, but this doesn't detract from the fact that it is a serious piece of equipment and should be treated with respect. Do your homework, and if you are not comfortable, but still need the performance, consider a more plug and play unit like the Felder RL200.

I'm with you on all that, the motor is fine, cycling limits is fine, the machine is good value, but I don't see ClearVue standing behind their product. To learn everything you just told me, I had to go directly to a Leeson service center and talk to a tech. Only then was it explained to me what's going on. I'm fine with a product having limited cycles per hour, but the customer needs to be informed! And not after the fact, but right up front. That's what is so sad about ClearVue's owner's response. He admitted that they've known for years about all this, but haven't done anything to educate their customers.

To give you all an idea of how limited Jason's (the Owner of Cleavue) knowledge is about motors, when I asked him if a 3ph motor would be better, he said he doesn't know much about that.

Hmm. And he's the guy who answers all tech calls.

Offline JonathanJung

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Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2021, 10:59 AM »
*Don't start the motor more than 4 times per hour*

Does this carry over to other single phase 5hp or even 3hp motors like you would find in a table saw? How many of us have a TS with a 5hp motor, probably more than have a 5hp DE. My TS is only 3hp, but I don't recall reading anything that warned of repeated starts/stops or to being limited to any set number of starts per hour. I have often started my TS motor a dozen or more times in an hour. It's not the type of machine you want to leave running when not directly in use as we all know. So there must be some difference in the motors. What about other heavy iron in the shop with large motors.

Unrelated but a place I worked in the past had some huge, 2000hp motors that turned some equally sized pumps. The starting procedure only allowed one start every 45 minutes IF the winding temperature had dropped to some specified temp which I don't recall. The windings have thermocouples embedded in them to monitor temp at all times. I don't remember the starting amp draw but running I believe they were around 190A @ 4160v.

That would make a heck of a dust collector IF you could afford the electric.  [eek]

It has been explained to me by the Leeson tech why other machines can start much more often. They have less load. A blade on a TS or a head on a planer has little resistance compared to a massive fan. There's hardly another machine in the shop that comes close to the startup load by the 16" impeller in the DC. My 37" dual head drum sander probably is as much if not more, but it would be odd to start that up more than a couple times an hour.

For this reason, it is best to start the DC with all blast gates closed.

Offline ChuckM

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Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2021, 11:02 AM »
Snip.
Granted, Clearvue should add this information to their documentation, but in their defense, it's fairly common knowledge amongst those familiar with industrial equipment. Yes, many hobbyists install them in their home shops, but this doesn't detract from the fact that it is a serious piece of equipment and should be treated with respect.

How can anyone treat a machine with the respect it deserves if they, as a user, are not properly informed by the merchant in the first place? ???

« Last Edit: March 29, 2021, 11:05 AM by ChuckM »

Offline JonathanJung

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Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2021, 11:05 AM »
Exactly right. Expecting to sell to hobbyists with knowledge about operating industrial equipment is not just illogical, but foolish.

Offline egmiii

  • Posts: 209
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2021, 11:16 AM »
Exactly right. Expecting to sell to hobbyists with knowledge about operating industrial equipment is not just illogical, but foolish.

Maybe. Personally I wouldn't take the risk owning this business, but they have decided to serve a market that clearly exists - hobbyists who seek an industrial class dust collector at an affordable price. I'm thankful I had the opportunity to buy one as I'm sure many others are.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1408
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2021, 11:26 AM »
It appears there is a bit of Clearvue bashing going on and I'd like to share my experience for those who stumble across this thread in the future.

They are a great company who stands behind the product. I've had several interactions with their sales and support staff. They are very helpful and knowledgeable.

The CV1800 provides a level of performance unmatched by anything close to it's price point. You will likely need to spend 3x as much to beat it. Plenty of production shops run them successfully.

Contrary to previous posts, the 5HP motor is adequately sized. It is of high quality. You should not start single phase 5HP and up motors with heavy fans/flywheels/etc attached more than 4-5 times per hour. The startup current is very high and will cook the windings. A Baldor would suffer the same fate. A 5HP table saw uses far less current because the blade weighs a fraction of what a dust collector fan weighs, so you can start and stop more often. If you would like to start and stop a 5HP and up motor more often, then you should use a 3 phase motor and programable VFD. You can program the motor to gently ramp up to full speed over a 10 second window. Clearvue has a 3 phase motor option. It's quite common in countries with 50hz power, as they use the VFD to generate 60hz power to maximize performance.

Granted, Clearvue should add this information to their documentation, but in their defense, it's fairly common knowledge amongst those familiar with industrial equipment. Yes, many hobbyists install them in their home shops, but this doesn't detract from the fact that it is a serious piece of equipment and should be treated with respect. Do your homework, and if you are not comfortable, but still need the performance, consider a more plug and play unit like the Felder RL200.

Motor can be adequately sized, just not adequately controlled. If the user can easily do something they destroys it or creates a safety issue (fire), there is a problem. Just putting instructions in the manual is not acceptable. This is why products all around us have various "features", as the lawyers for those companies learned you can't just tell a user "don't do this", you have to stop them from being able to do it.  Turning something on and off too often doesn't fall under a case of obvious mis-use of the product.

The product may be much cheaper than other products out there, but if it's cheaper because they didn't put the money into a proper control system, then none of that matters. Back to my comment about "I can do the same for less".

"common industrial knowledge" doesn't mean anything and has no place here.  You sell a product, you have to understand liability for it. It absolutely needs to be covered in the manual, and needs to have a label right on the machine notifying the user. But really the issue needs to be eliminated.  I'm curious if this has any UL rating to it (the product, not the motor).

Offline egmiii

  • Posts: 209
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2021, 12:14 PM »

Motor can be adequately sized, just not adequately controlled. If the user can easily do something they destroys it or creates a safety issue (fire), there is a problem. Just putting instructions in the manual is not acceptable. This is why products all around us have various "features", as the lawyers for those companies learned you can't just tell a user "don't do this", you have to stop them from being able to do it.  Turning something on and off too often doesn't fall under a case of obvious mis-use of the product.

I disagree. Your table saw/router manual probably says it's for cutting wood products only. Does your router stop you from feeding in a piece of plate steel? Should I try cutting a sheet of glass on the saw? By your logic, the saw shouldn't allow me to do that, even though the manual says not to. As you move into product categories that require some specialized knowledge to operate, some responsibility has to fall upon the owner/operator.

"common industrial knowledge" doesn't mean anything and has no place here.  You sell a product, you have to understand liability for it. It absolutely needs to be covered in the manual, and needs to have a label right on the machine notifying the user. But really the issue needs to be eliminated.  I'm curious if this has any UL rating to it (the product, not the motor).

The first thing I said was "Granted, Clearvue should add this information to their documentation", so I agree it should be there. I'm not sure how much experience you have in the world of industrial machinery, but assumptions are made on the base level of product knowledge by end users. General warnings in the manual written by lawyers cover the obvious stuff, but they can't cover everything. Never doubt the ingenuity of an idiot.

Offline squall_line

  • Posts: 181
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2021, 12:46 PM »
The first thing I said was "Granted, Clearvue should add this information to their documentation", so I agree it should be there. I'm not sure how much experience you have in the world of industrial machinery, but assumptions are made on the base level of product knowledge by end users. General warnings in the manual written by lawyers cover the obvious stuff, but they can't cover everything. Never doubt the ingenuity of an idiot.

Given lead times on user manuals (depending on how they're produced), updating the website and adding a sticker to the unit itself seems like a pretty good interim solution.  It bothered me at least a little bit to read "yeah, I've been meaning to have someone do that" as the response.

Of course, that's also my response way more often than I would like it to be, so it brings up feelings of guilt when I hear someone else say it.

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2021, 12:46 PM »
You can mis-use anything.  The big key is when a system/device/feature/etc can be made and put in place to prevent something. In this case, they very much can stop/prevent the issues with controls. Thermal switches/limiters are not anything special. When there are systems that can be put on to prevent the issue and the manufacture does not, that is where they get in trouble.

Turning something on and off is not something that is expected to cause an issue. Plus if the result was just shorter life of product, then it wouldn't be that big of a deal. It's that this is a fire hazard that makes this a serious issue. And the manufacture clearly knows there is an issue.

If someone turns a light on and off non stop and it fry's the bulb, they replace the bulb and move on. If someone turns a light on and off and it burns the house down, there are major lawsuits.

They are selling these to anyone. If they do think this is an acceptable situation, they better have a tag at the power switch that has to be removed by the owner were "by removing you acknowledge....." .  But that doesn't do anything to help the next owner, next user, etc.

Using the dust extractor isn't requiring someone to be licensed/take a training program and get a cert/etc.  So you cannot expect a user to have special knowledge.  If this was an industrial environment, and this was the situation, all users would have to go thru training, sign acknowledgements, etc.

Offline egmiii

  • Posts: 209
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2021, 01:26 PM »
You do realize the Clearvue is a kit, right? Anyone can buy it, but that doesn't mean anyone should. This is not a mass market item like a light bulb. It doesn't come with a power switch, or cord. You have to wire it into your own homebrew switch gear, or buy their switch, which still requires line voltage wiring. You mount the impeller to the motor shaft, assemble the impeller shrouds, silicone and screw it all together, then mount it to your structure. If you don't have specialized knowledge/experience in equipment assembly, there is a strong possibility, if done wrong, it could come apart and kill you.

They source a reasonably priced 5HP motor, which doesn't include thermal overload switches (to my knowledge). I think they are smart enough to avoid the liability of modifying an existing (likely UL listed) motor to add their own. So they would need to source a motor with this feature already present, and control system sophisticated enough to alert the user. I'm not sure how much that would add to the cost, but I have several similar sized motors on other woodworking equipment that costs an order of magnitude more, and they do not offer this feature. If you start and stop them too often, the offboard capacitor melts down in the control box and you replace it.

Regularly inspect your motors, keep them free of sawdust buildup, and maintain adequate offsets from combustible materials and you should be fine. This is a common best practice across all woodworking machinery. Like I said before, they should amend the documentation and probably add a warning sticker. But I don't want to see the business unfairly destroyed from posts with eye catching taglines. It's a great product for the right customer.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7349
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2021, 01:28 PM »

Motor can be adequately sized, just not adequately controlled. If the user can easily do something they destroys it or creates a safety issue (fire), there is a problem. Just putting instructions in the manual is not acceptable. This is why products all around us have various "features", as the lawyers for those companies learned you can't just tell a user "don't do this", you have to stop them from being able to do it.  Turning something on and off too often doesn't fall under a case of obvious mis-use of the product.

I disagree. Your table saw/router manual probably says it's for cutting wood products only. Does your router stop you from feeding in a piece of plate steel? Should I try cutting a sheet of glass on the saw? By your logic, the saw shouldn't allow me to do that, even though the manual says not to. As you move into product categories that require some specialized knowledge to operate, some responsibility has to fall upon the owner/operator.

I disagree.

The examples you give are totally out of the scope of the tool's normal use. But turning a dust collector On and Off sure is, and should never under any circumstance lead to a dangerous situation. A mere mention in the manual is not acceptable, and certainly will not be in court, when it comes to that.

Offline egmiii

  • Posts: 209
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2021, 01:49 PM »

Motor can be adequately sized, just not adequately controlled. If the user can easily do something they destroys it or creates a safety issue (fire), there is a problem. Just putting instructions in the manual is not acceptable. This is why products all around us have various "features", as the lawyers for those companies learned you can't just tell a user "don't do this", you have to stop them from being able to do it.  Turning something on and off too often doesn't fall under a case of obvious mis-use of the product.

I disagree. Your table saw/router manual probably says it's for cutting wood products only. Does your router stop you from feeding in a piece of plate steel? Should I try cutting a sheet of glass on the saw? By your logic, the saw shouldn't allow me to do that, even though the manual says not to. As you move into product categories that require some specialized knowledge to operate, some responsibility has to fall upon the owner/operator.

I disagree.

The examples you give are totally out of the scope of the tool's normal use. But turning a dust collector On and Off sure is, and should never under any circumstance lead to a dangerous situation. A mere mention in the manual is not acceptable, and certainly will not be in court, when it comes to that.

How would I know that cutting steel and glass are "totally out of the scope of the tool's normal use"?

I was previously told ""common industrial knowledge" doesn't mean anything and has no place here.".

Seems like it does have a place...

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1408
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2021, 01:51 PM »
You do realize the Clearvue is a kit, right? Anyone can buy it, but that doesn't mean anyone should. This is not a mass market item like a light bulb. It doesn't come with a power switch, or cord. You have to wire it into your own homebrew switch gear, or buy their switch, which still requires line voltage wiring. You mount the impeller to the motor shaft, assemble the impeller shrouds, silicone and screw it all together, then mount it to your structure. If you don't have specialized knowledge/experience in equipment assembly, there is a strong possibility, if done wrong, it could come apart and kill you.

They source a reasonably priced 5HP motor, which doesn't include thermal overload switches (to my knowledge). I think they are smart enough to avoid the liability of modifying an existing (likely UL listed) motor to add their own. So they would need to source a motor with this feature already present, and control system sophisticated enough to alert the user. I'm not sure how much that would add to the cost, but I have several similar sized motors on other woodworking equipment that costs an order of magnitude more, and they do not offer this feature. If you start and stop them too often, the offboard capacitor melts down in the control box and you replace it.

Regularly inspect your motors, keep them free of sawdust buildup, and maintain adequate offsets from combustible materials and you should be fine. This is a common best practice across all woodworking machinery. Like I said before, they should amend the documentation and probably add a warning sticker. But I don't want to see the business unfairly destroyed from posts with eye catching taglines. It's a great product for the right customer.

So looking back I see it involves some assembly, they certainly don't call it a kit.  That doesn't change anything.  What will destroy a company is if they sell something that is a fire hazard and are not taking precautions. Further this is what kills off whole industries or paths for consumers. As a company not ensuring safety gives regulators a reason to prevent all such sales. We live in a world that loves to stop people from doing there own stuff. If you are going to sell something, you have to make sure it will be done right, everyone knows what is involved.  This is selling something so people don't have to roll their own. Giving businesses a pass on this sort of thing is exactly what will prevent any company from offering such systems in the future.

Remove personal attachment from a business. They can be great people, great service, etc.  They need at a minimum need to highlight this issue heavily throughout their documentation, but more realistically locate a motor that will support a thermal switch and make it part of the required kit. The first house that gets burned down will end their business. And worse for all, it could lead to bans of these motors, bans on homeowners wiring up large motors, bans on dust collectors in structure attached to homes......on and on.  They need to get this right. They acknowledge the issue from what the users have stated. So this isn't and over site, ignorance, etc.

Overheating motor, directly attached to fine dust in a high flow air stream is a terrible combination.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2021, 02:02 PM by DeformedTree »

Offline cpw

  • Posts: 278
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2021, 01:55 PM »
Oneida has a similar limitation; but it is included in the manual that you should not start the dust collector more than 6 times per hour.

I have an iVac system for my V-3000, and you need a switch that has modified "minimum run time" firmware to prevent repeated stop/start cycles.  [This is clearly on the iVac website as well.]

As long as you keep the motor running it is fine, it is just the large inrush current that is problematic.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 2378
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2021, 01:56 PM »
So they would need to source a motor with this feature already present, and control system sophisticated enough to alert the user. I'm not sure how much that would add to the cost,
I'm sure it would cost less than burned down shop.
DC is a type of equipment which is turned on and off often, especially in a small shop. If it catches fire after being turned on more than 4 times an hour, then its back to the drawing board. Thermal protection, soft start, timed switch, I don't care. As it is it would be a deal breaker for me. The last thing I need is keeping track of when I switched my DC the last time.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2021, 02:08 PM by Svar »

Offline egmiii

  • Posts: 209
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2021, 02:15 PM »
Oneida has a similar limitation; but it is included in the manual that you should not start the dust collector more than 6 times per hour.

I have an iVac system for my V-3000, and you need a switch that has modified "minimum run time" firmware to prevent repeated stop/start cycles.  [This is clearly on the iVac website as well.]

As long as you keep the motor running it is fine, it is just the large inrush current that is problematic.

Correct. I believe the documentation is the only thing that needs to be fixed by Clearvue. Others here believe they should redesign the product to a higher standard than is followed by other major manufacturers. It would be great if they offered an option for an electronics kit that would limit the number of startups. The consumer could decide if that feature is worth the extra money. I'm the farthest thing from a legal expert, but if Oneda, a much larger retailer, isn't mandating this feature, then I'm guessing there are adequate legal protections for them should an issue arise. Developing this control hardware has it's own set of costs, engineering and legal. A small company like Clearvue may not have the resources to fund such an effort.

Offline serge0n

  • Posts: 149
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2021, 02:33 PM »
Correct. I believe the documentation is the only thing that needs to be fixed by Clearvue.

Seriously? So you are completely fine with the owner's response and the fact that @JonathanJung had to call the motor manufacturer to find out what exactly happened? Do you find it acceptable that he had to pay for a motor replacement for a motor that started a fire due to lackluster documentation? His unit was still under warranty if I'm not mistaken.
I'd be furious if it happened to me and would demand free of charge replacement.
I'm completely familiar with the start/stop cycle limitation on powerful DCs, but it must be stated in the manual.

I'm honestly shocked at Clearvue's response. They are not owning this issue, they made their customer pay for the new motor and couldn't even provide a detailed explanation on why their own product needs to be operated in a certain way.
That's mom and dad shop's approach to customer service. I thought Clearvue was a much more reliable company than that.
I think this thread alone already cost Clearvue much more than the $600 that they have refused to cover.

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2544
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2021, 02:41 PM »

Snip.
I think this thread alone already cost Clearvue much more than the $600 that they have refused to cover.

Not only won't I touch anything from that brand, I also won't recommend it IF my opinion is sought. (Compare this to a vehicle dealership fix I received for free -- at an invoiced amount of $800+ Cdn, just because the dealership couldn't be sure if the car problem was caused by me or by the shop after a regular service.)

Imagine what the reactions would have been if this thread's heading had read: "Loyal customer EXTREMELY happy that vendor replaced a $600 motor at no charge! And safety lesson learned."
« Last Edit: March 29, 2021, 02:48 PM by ChuckM »

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Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1408
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #31 on: March 29, 2021, 03:00 PM »

Correct. I believe the documentation is the only thing that needs to be fixed by Clearvue. Others here believe they should redesign the product to a higher standard than is followed by other major manufacturers. It would be great if they offered an option for an electronics kit that would limit the number of startups. The consumer could decide if that feature is worth the extra money. I'm the farthest thing from a legal expert, but if Oneda, a much larger retailer, isn't mandating this feature, then I'm guessing there are adequate legal protections for them should an issue arise. Developing this control hardware has it's own set of costs, engineering and legal. A small company like Clearvue may not have the resources to fund such an effort.

You don't sell something you can't properly design and support. If only companies that are bigger and sold more expensive products realized sooner they could get out of legal liability by being smaller, or selling the products cheaper.

If they don't want to sell with a different motor, they need to sell, or direct people to the correct hardware to run the motor correctly, and make absolutely clear the issue if they don't do this. Still, a responsible company, and one who gets good legal advice would not even go down a path like this.

Being small/etc is not an excuse, and doesn't get you out of a court room. "common industrial knowledge" defense will get you destroyed in court. 

Offline egmiii

  • Posts: 209
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #32 on: March 29, 2021, 03:06 PM »

Seriously? So you are completely fine with the owner's response and the fact that @JonathanJung had to call the motor manufacturer to find out what exactly happened? Do you find it acceptable that he had to pay for a motor replacement for a motor that started a fire due to lackluster documentation? His unit was still under warranty if I'm not mistaken.
I'd be furious if it happened to me and would demand free of charge replacement.
I'm completely familiar with the start/stop cycle limitation on powerful DCs, but it must be stated in the manual.

I'm honestly shocked at Clearvue's response. They are not owning this issue, they made their customer pay for the new motor and couldn't even provide a detailed explanation on why their own product needs to be operated in a certain way.
That's mom and dad shop's approach to customer service. I thought Clearvue was a much more reliable company than that.
I think this thread alone already cost Clearvue much more than the $600 that they have refused to cover.

Never said I was completely fine with the owners response. I merely stated that I have had positive interactions with them on numerous occasions. I was impressed with their knowledge and service.

Personally, I would have fixed the documentation long ago. And in this particular case, split the cost of a new motor. Clearvue does not have a warranty, other than it shows up as specified. They are under no obligation to meet your demand for a free replacement. The motor manufacturer has their own warranty, which the OP could have taken advantage of. But he needed a replacement next day as it was critical to the operation of the business. If you want industrial class performance and support, buy an Alko. If you want to save a few bucks, Clearvue has it's place.

Offline egmiii

  • Posts: 209
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2021, 03:22 PM »

Not only won't I touch anything from that brand, I also won't recommend it IF my opinion is sought. (Compare this to a vehicle dealership fix I received for free -- at an invoiced amount of $800+ Cdn, just because the dealership couldn't be sure if the car problem was caused by me or by the shop after a regular service.)

Imagine what the reactions would have been if this thread's heading had read: "Loyal customer EXTREMELY happy that vendor replaced a $600 motor at no charge! And safety lesson learned."

And please tell me, which dust collector would you recommend that can pull 1500 CFM with an equivalent fine dust capture rate? How much does it cost? Certainly it won't be Oneida based upon your standards. How many Festool CT control boards were destroyed by the static discharge from their cyclone? How many owners here received a new Festool vac from Oneida?

Offline egmiii

  • Posts: 209
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #34 on: March 29, 2021, 03:30 PM »

If they don't want to sell with a different motor, they need to sell, or direct people to the correct hardware to run the motor correctly, and make absolutely clear the issue if they don't do this.


Agree. Clearvue should make it known that frequent restarts in a short window are outside the design guidelines and provide an option to enforce this via a 3rd party control (should one be available).

Still, a responsible company, and one who gets good legal advice would not even go down a path like this.

Would you consider Oneida a responsible company? Their units have a similar design issue. Others have said it's mentioned in the manual, which is good, and what I believe Clearvue needs to do. But they do not sell every unit with electronics to correct the problem. Are they getting bad legal advice?

Offline serge0n

  • Posts: 149
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #35 on: March 29, 2021, 03:56 PM »
Clearvue does not have a warranty, other than it shows up as specified.
I had no idea. So they are selling a DIY "I can do it for less" kit. Ok.

They are under no obligation to meet your demand for a free replacement.

Of course they are not obligated. But anyone who wants to grow their business and understands the impact of bad reviews would do it in a heartbeat.

If you want industrial class performance and support, buy an Alko. If you want to save a few bucks, Clearvue has it's place.
Or Oneida at x2 the price. Basically you get what you pay for. Yes, Clearvue has it's place, but the "I got your money, now you are on your own" mentality won't get them very far. I guess that's part of the reason why they remained such a small company for all these years. Which is really sad considering they have the winning cyclone design from the DC guru Bill Pentz.
I had them on my list of dust collector upgrades once I get a bigger shop, but not after this post. Looks like Oneida is the only real player in the professional (not industrial) dust collection game.

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2544
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #36 on: March 29, 2021, 03:56 PM »

And please tell me, which dust collector would you recommend that can pull 1500 CFM with an equivalent fine dust capture rate? How much does it cost? Certainly it won't be Oneida based upon your standards. How many Festool CT control boards were destroyed by the static discharge from their cyclone? How many owners here received a new Festool vac from Oneida?

As a consumer, I won't let a merchant hold me hostage.

IF Festool's DF500 failed me, and Festool's customer service failed me, too, I wouldn't recommend the DF500 to anyone who asked me about it...knowing that no other Joiner machines are available. But there're alternative solutions that I can recommend such as Mafell, floating tenons (router and jig), etc. Same thing for dust collection -- there's more than one way to satisfy a need.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2021, 03:59 PM by ChuckM »

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7349
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #37 on: March 29, 2021, 04:16 PM »
How would I know that cutting steel and glass are "totally out of the scope of the tool's normal use"?

Errrr, common sense?

I merely stated that I have had positive interactions with them on numerous occasions. I was impressed with their knowledge and service.

If I may ask, why would an average customer have numerous interactions with a company? Do their products break all the time, or are you a friend of the family?

Honestly, you start to sound like one of those bought and paid for 10 star IMDB reviews.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2021, 04:36 PM by Alex »

Offline serge0n

  • Posts: 149
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #38 on: March 29, 2021, 04:19 PM »
And please tell me, which dust collector would you recommend that can pull 1500 CFM with an equivalent fine dust capture rate? How much does it cost? Certainly it won't be Oneida based upon your standards. How many Festool CT control boards were destroyed by the static discharge from their cyclone? How many owners here received a new Festool vac from Oneida?

Doesn't their Festool cyclone come with a grounding kit? I've never heard of this issue with static discharge burning up CT control boards. Wow.

I know you asked ChuckM about the DC recommendation, but I'd get a 5 HP Dust Gorilla from Oneida at $3700.
It seems to be much more expensive than a Clearvue solution, but let's take a closer look.

A comparable Clearvue CVMAX costs $2420. To get close to the same feature set as the Oneida you need to add:
  • dust bin: $185
  • wall mounting brackets: $55
  • filter cleanout box: $85
  • remote control: unobtanium, hire an electronics pro to wire up a relay (let's say $200)
  • duct silencer: custom made, about $140
  • dust bin sensor: $150

That's $815 extra. Total cost: $3235. Much closer to Oneida, which comes with a 2 year warranty and a smart boost controller.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1408
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #39 on: March 29, 2021, 04:38 PM »

Would you consider Oneida a responsible company? Their units have a similar design issue. Others have said it's mentioned in the manual, which is good, and what I believe Clearvue needs to do. But they do not sell every unit with electronics to correct the problem. Are they getting bad legal advice?

It sounds like Oneida has taken some effort on this issue to address it. I don't know enough about the situation to know if it's apples to apples.  Giving people an option to create a hazard is not a good situation for any company to take. They may be in a similar situation, but have at least taken the first steps to reduce risks.

Your comments go back to things like cost. It doesn't matter if someone comes out with something cheaper if it's unsafe. From what I can see, Clearvue should not be selling this product as is. It has a straight up direct path to a loss of structure or worse loss of life. This isn't a miss-use of product situation.  They are selling something that can cause severe damage, they know this condition exist, and are doing nothing to mitigate/advise on it. Adding documentation alone very well is not enough to mitigate legal issues. If the product just broke, or damaged other components, that is bad, but the real issue is the safety of people and structures involved with this situation.

You can make a lot of products much cheaper if you throw away safety from the design. If it cost more to make it safe, that is what you do, end of story. If other similar products cost more, this is the sort of reason why. Kits and Plans, etc to help people get function for less cost are great, but if anyone or any company sells/promotes doing something that is unsafe, it's a quick way to have regulation kill it all off.

Companies would sell us lots of stuff if they could just sell us anything and shift any liability/accountability off to those who buy it. Think about about how much money companies like Festool spend to get their products UL certified, and thru similar organizations in various countries.  That's what it takes to do this sort of thing. If a company doesn't want to do things right, and ensure they are following regulations and so forth, they have no business selling products.

I would hate to be someone filing an insurance claim if one of these units caused a fire. They might find themselves not only not getting covered, but dropped by their insurance company for having one of these.

Offline egmiii

  • Posts: 209
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #40 on: March 29, 2021, 04:39 PM »

Doesn't their Festool cyclone come with a grounding kit? I've never heard of this issue with static discharge burning up CT control boards. Wow.

I know you asked ChuckM about the DC recommendation, but I'd get a 5 HP Dust Gorilla from Oneida at $3700.
It seems to be much more expensive than a Clearvue solution, but let's take a closer look.

A comparable Clearvue CVMAX costs $2420. To get close to the same feature set as the Oneida you need to add:
  • dust bin: $185
  • wall mounting brackets: $55
  • filter cleanout box: $85
  • remote control: unobtanium, hire an electronics pro to wire up a relay (let's say $200)
  • duct silencer: custom made, about $140
  • dust bin sensor: $150

That's $815 extra. Total cost: $3235. Much closer to Oneida, which comes with a 2 year warranty and a smart boost controller.

Search the FOG for the CT circuit board issue. Oneida fixed the problem with conductive hoses and grounding after users reported the issue, but to my knowledge, no one was compensated for damages. I'm just making the point that if people are going to walk away from Clearvue for not paying up, then they should also walk away from Oneida.

I believe you are comparing the wrong unit to the Oneida. The CVMax is a step up. The CV1800 is more of a comparable unit (15" impeller, 5HP, similar airflow). Current price is 2085 and it comes with everything you mentioned, except the drum. I purchased one locally for $25.  The drum sensor isn't included, but they usually will include it if you call and ask. So it's more like 2100 vs 3700. But like I suggested earlier, get the VFD and 3 phase motor for another $400 or so and never worry about overheating motors again.

Offline ryanjg117

  • Posts: 271
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #41 on: March 29, 2021, 04:49 PM »
I know you asked ChuckM about the DC recommendation, but I'd get a 5 HP Dust Gorilla from Oneida at $3700.
It seems to be much more expensive than a Clearvue solution, but let's take a closer look.

A comparable Clearvue CVMAX costs $2420. To get close to the same feature set as the Oneida you need to add:
  • dust bin: $185
  • wall mounting brackets: $55
  • filter cleanout box: $85
  • remote control: unobtanium, hire an electronics pro to wire up a relay (let's say $200)
  • duct silencer: custom made, about $140
  • dust bin sensor: $150

So pay almost 2x for a system that has the same 5hp single-phase motor and hence the same starts-per-hour restrictions as the ClearVue option? I'm not going to argue Oneida isn't better, but as others have stated, ClearVue is a more DIY kit-building solution. I would hazard a guess that 90% of ClearVue customers are not paying $200 for an electrician, nor are they paying $185 for a dust bin.

As others have suggested, the solution to the problem in this thread is to go with a 3-phase motor and VFD with programmable fan modes to enable a slow ramp-up. Or be mindful of how often you start it up.

Offline fuzzy logic

  • Posts: 381
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #42 on: March 29, 2021, 05:42 PM »
Wow - just WOW. 
Sorry - being in the UK, I could hardly believe what I've read about this particular ClearVue dust-collector. 

If that happened here, I fancy Health & Safety people might crawl all over it... 

Our consumer laws give a high level of 'protection' to private / DIY buyers; they are not so comprehensive for businesses - but still think that ClearVue would have a problem if bought by a business. 

Even my 'middle-of-the-road' domestic paper shredder gives details wrt duty cycle etc - both in the instructions and on the shredder itself. 

I have this perception that in the US, people would quite readily threaten to get legal advice if necessary in such cases??  Ok, the original-poster needed to urgently get it sorted out - but surely worth pursuing all the same? 

As an aside, and, off-topic: not all small businesses can afford what they would like to get - but I presume that (similar to the UK) the cost of such equipment can offset against tax - over a period of time?  Unless very hard pushed, why not get a 'safer' product?  In that context, I wouldn't touch ClearVue with a barge-pole; purely because of their 'dismissive' customer service response on this occasion.   

FWIW, the comments made about Oneida I have sympathy with - but that is now history...

Richard (UK)



Decent people do the right thing - always?

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1408
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #43 on: March 29, 2021, 06:07 PM »
In general, yes, if you DIY something, depending on what it was, you homeowners would cover you.  But when you buy it, whole other story.  I think in general, if you are a business and buy something like this, and it doesn't have a UL approval, you can get in all sorts of trouble.

Of course with DIY, if it's on your house, you need to get permits and get inspected if you are in an area with code enforcement. If you don't again, insurance can just drop you.  But this is not part of your house, so that has nothing to do with this, but just mentioning from a liability standpoint.  You can buy an electrical panel and install it in your house. But the manufacture makes sure their parts won't burst into flame.  And while you could install wire that is to small, that is where inspection comes in.  On something like this, if one of us made this in our garage, and burned down the garage, the act of god would be "idiot home owner", you would most likely be covered.  But if I bought this clearvue and burnt down the garage, insurance would probably cover me, but they would go after clearvue. 

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 5132
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #44 on: March 29, 2021, 06:43 PM »

Not only won't I touch anything from that brand, I also won't recommend it IF my opinion is sought. (Compare this to a vehicle dealership fix I received for free -- at an invoiced amount of $800+ Cdn, just because the dealership couldn't be sure if the car problem was caused by me or by the shop after a regular service.)

Imagine what the reactions would have been if this thread's heading had read: "Loyal customer EXTREMELY happy that vendor replaced a $600 motor at no charge! And safety lesson learned."

And please tell me, which dust collector would you recommend that can pull 1500 CFM with an equivalent fine dust capture rate? How much does it cost? Certainly it won't be Oneida based upon your standards. How many Festool CT control boards were destroyed by the static discharge from their cyclone? How many owners here received a new Festool vac from Oneida?

How many?

Seriously, it still isn't clear to me that this static "issue" was really a thing. If it was, was it an Oneida problem or a Festool problem.

I've run my first gen CT Mini with a first gen DD on top without regard for static for over a decade with no problem.

Offline egmiii

  • Posts: 209
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #45 on: March 29, 2021, 06:59 PM »
How would I know that cutting steel and glass are "totally out of the scope of the tool's normal use"?

Errrr, common sense?

I merely stated that I have had positive interactions with them on numerous occasions. I was impressed with their knowledge and service.

If I may ask, why would an average customer have numerous interactions with a company? Do their products break all the time, or are you a friend of the family?

Honestly, you start to sound like one of those bought and paid for 10 star IMDB reviews.

I have purchased 3 of their mini cyclone kits and one of their full size CV1800 units over the course of a few years. I had multiple questions before ordering the large unit and they patiently answered my questions while I was researching options. I originally didn’t order complete mini cyclone kits (buckets, wheels, hoses, etc), just the cyclone, but realized that wasn’t such a smart idea. They sold me the remaining components at the price as if I bought them in the kit, which was a good savings. They have also provided advice on duct pipe design, even though I told them I was going to DIY the pipe instead of buying it from them.

No, My products don’t break all the time. No, I am not family. No, I am not one of those bought and paid for 10 star IMDB reviews. I am a satisfied customer.

Thanks for doubting my veracity.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2021, 07:02 PM by egmiii »

Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 320
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #46 on: March 29, 2021, 07:16 PM »
I'm just not entirely sure why anyone would start a full sized dust collector that often anyway?
This is not a "shop vac" or mobile dust extractor, something that might be "tool-triggered".
A big, high CFM unit like that is a start it and let it run type of thing.....especially in a professional shop, where there could be several people using it at any given time.
CSX
DF500 + assortment set
PS420 + Base kit
OF1010
OF1400
MFK700
TS55, FS1080, FS1400 holey, FS1900, FS3000
CT26E + Workshop cleaning set
RO90
RO125
ETS EC 125
RAS115
ETS 125 (2)

Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
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  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #47 on: March 29, 2021, 08:19 PM »
   

    Hobby, pro, industrial, cost, warranty, documented, not documented, kit built, whatever. Bottom line is that all of that pretty much has nothing to do with the actual problem. Which from, what has been posted, seems to be that there is a fire hazard if you turn it on/ off more than four times per hour.  And the owner knows about it, and has said so.  That just doesn't fly. It is a giant law suit waiting to happen. And it won't matter if ClearVue can win the law suit or not. They can still be sued. It is also a real hazard to people using it.  To me it is unbelievably irresponsible.


Seth

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1408
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #48 on: March 29, 2021, 09:04 PM »
Exactly Seth

"what about ism"  and "for the price" ,  etc don't matter here.

This company needs to properly address this. Pointing at other companies, or "value" etc won't matter if someones is killed, or has a major structure fire.

I'm glad the OP is ok, and didn't suffer major losses.  The Subject line is a good one, people need to know about this issue. If the companies fixes is, the subject line can always be updated to cover what the company may do (if they do something), but for now. It's important people see it so they can be made aware of the issue.

Offline Banana

  • Posts: 72
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #49 on: March 29, 2021, 10:11 PM »
Yeah, I'm having a hard time understanding why documentation would be a 'solution' for this particular duty cycle issue.
I supposes that only the person that purchased and installed it is going to be using it, or always remembering the caution, or aware at all times who else is using it and have some control over that, but this just doesn't work for what's at stake.

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 2008
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #50 on: March 29, 2021, 10:49 PM »
"you need to get permits and get inspected if you are in an area with code enforcement."

It it's plug-in equipment there is no inspection required from code enforcement as nothing under the building code including the NEC applies. At least in NFPA 70. Other sections may apply but for homebrew equipment that is not put up for sale I doubt anything applies. Use at your own risk.

And that may be why ClearVue and other garage operations offer their equipment as build-it-yourself and not as a complete, assembled unit. That let's them legally bypass UL cert or any other regs. Kit components they resell like motors or controls fall back on the manufacturers warranties and certifications they obtained.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 8353
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #51 on: March 29, 2021, 11:01 PM »
Ya, this is one of the weirder threads that has had a large following on the FOG. Offering an electronic module that would prevent you from turning this thing on 5 times within an hour seems like a no-brainer. So it costs $200 extra...who cares my life and the the life of my wife and pets is certainly worth more than that, to say nothing about the house. And $200 is only 10% of the system purchase price.

I understand that wood working equipment can be expensive, but to put yourself in a position of potentially severe consequences because you didn't spend an extra $200 just seems foolish. I really do think this is a company that's run amuck and needs some further guidance. This is just not normal and his reply's are just not normal. 

« Last Edit: March 30, 2021, 09:28 AM by Cheese »

Offline Rob Z

  • Posts: 1010
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #52 on: March 29, 2021, 11:06 PM »
I had a CV (bought ~2014/2015)  and  I recall that it was plainly stated in the manual about the number of startups per hour (not more than six?).  Maybe that was a prior owner of the company and a different version of the manual?  It's unfortunate that the OP didn't get the same instructions.

I thought the CV was well-designed and a really solid product.  I would have kept it but we moved to a  smaller house and I ended up selling the CV and getting an Oneida mini-gorilla. 




Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1408
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #53 on: March 29, 2021, 11:14 PM »
Yes, I was referring to the permits and inspections as part of stuff with your house, not this DC. This was in the scope of insurance and liabilities. When you build a house, it's a kit of parts in many ways, but you have to have it inspected to verify you built it correctly. You also have code books. Similar with Kit Cars, it's just a thing in the garage until you can get the DMV to approve it.

I'm still not sure I would think of this DC as a kit. There is assembly, but lots of stuff involves assembly. Given it's rather big and awkward, this makes sense.

You could be on to something though, they may be thinking they are getting away with things here with the way they are going about it. Unless the motor manufacture says they will honor the motor warranty, I wouldn't expect them too. They sold the motor to Clearvue, I wouldn't expect them to honor a warranty in this situation. A warranty claim would be via Clearvue, and the motor manufacture would expect Clearvue to ensure the motor is used properly. There is nothing wrong with the motor, it's how it's being used. Motor manufacture might tell them they won't sell them these motors anymore until Clearvue adds some controls.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1408
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #54 on: March 29, 2021, 11:23 PM »
I had a CV (bought ~2014/2015)  and  I recall that it was plainly stated in the manual about the number of startups per hour (not more than six?).  Maybe that was a prior owner of the company and a different version of the manual?  It's unfortunate that the OP didn't get the same instructions.

I thought the CV was well-designed and a really solid product.  I would have kept it but we moved to a  smaller house and I ended up selling the CV and getting an Oneida mini-gorilla.

Important question is "was knowledge passed on to the new owner"

Offline Rob Z

  • Posts: 1010
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #55 on: March 29, 2021, 11:28 PM »
Yes, I was referring to the permits and inspections as part of stuff with your house, not this DC. This was in the scope of insurance and liabilities.


I figured that is what you meant with your earlier comment.  I recall talking to the folks at CV to get the motor specs so my electrician could add the correct circuit for the plug-in of the unit.  The inspector was interested in the unit as a plug-in because he was used to seeing large dust collectors being hardwired with a disconnect.

Offline Rob Z

  • Posts: 1010
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #56 on: March 29, 2021, 11:35 PM »

[/quote]

Important question is "was knowledge passed on to the new owner"
[/quote]

Yes, along with all the paperwork I had.  [smile]

Offline kevinculle

  • Posts: 418
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #57 on: March 30, 2021, 07:16 AM »
I looked at CV's website and one detail seemed to fly in the face of common sense...the dust collector in question comes standard with a remote control???  If it can't be stopped and started more frequently than every 15 minutes the implication is that it's left on during processing operations as one moves from machine to machine.  So why in the heck hand the operator a remote which seems to facilitate and encourage more frequent starts and stops?

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 815
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #58 on: March 30, 2021, 03:53 PM »
I believe my V3000 has some limitation to start/stop times per hour and while I'd forgotten I rarely start and stop it more than 2-3 times for my small project work but thanks for the reminder!

For those who do not are wired to 220V single phase I wonder if we could harness a small amount of the incoming air and send it back up to the motor to cool the coils while it runs ...