Author Topic: ClearVue Fire Warning!  (Read 4284 times)

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Offline JonathanJung

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ClearVue Fire Warning!
« on: March 29, 2021, 12:50 AM »
*Don't start the motor more than 4 times per hour*

If you have a dust collector with a Leeson motor, such as I have on my 5hp ClearVue, that's the word of caution, right from the owner of ClearVue.

A week ago the motor on mine caught fire, nearly started my ceiling on fire. After much back and forth, overnighting a motor (this is my living), talking with Leeson, Clearvue, and others, it seems that starting/stopping too soon overheats the motor from the starting windings. So, don't start it up more than a few times every hour. This is exactly what the owner of ClearVue told me. Naturally, I was ticked and pointed out to him that this is not stated anywhere on their website or product manual. His response? "Yeah, I need to get someone on that."

So nearly $600 later I have a replacement motor, and to avoid burning it out too, I have to remember all day long not to cycle the unit on/off. The first motor lasted only 8 months of regular use, so fingers crossed this next one will be a champion.

Secondary moral to the story, never buy equipment needed to run for a living from a hobby-orientated company that doesn't stand behind its product. Hopefully a more commercially-targeted company would have such necessary info laid out.

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Offline ChuckM

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Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2021, 01:35 AM »
Based on what I can see in your post, isn't the merchant liable in a lawsuit (say, a house burnt down) for not giving a critical piece of product safety info.?

On the other hand, such operating limitation might affect future sales.

Offline Bernmc

  • Posts: 78
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2021, 04:39 AM »
pretty good argument for running a 3 phase motor and a VFD - that way you don't need to stop the motor. Just drop the revs way down with the VFD, and back up to full speed when you need the suction.

Offline Mini Me

  • Posts: 24
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2021, 06:45 AM »
pretty good argument for running a 3 phase motor and a VFD - that way you don't need to stop the motor. Just drop the revs way down with the VFD, and back up to full speed when you need the suction.

I second that Bernard. Over the years of dealing with this stuff the only way I would buy a single phase DE is with a gun pointed at my head. A VFD allows you to manage the DE by soft starts and instant speed and noise control. I start mine with no regard to times per hour and I often at a guess start it at least ten times per hour. The motor is a Leeson that is ten years old and has not given any signs of trouble.

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 2008
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2021, 07:12 AM »
*Don't start the motor more than 4 times per hour*

Does this carry over to other single phase 5hp or even 3hp motors like you would find in a table saw? How many of us have a TS with a 5hp motor, probably more than have a 5hp DE. My TS is only 3hp, but I don't recall reading anything that warned of repeated starts/stops or to being limited to any set number of starts per hour. I have often started my TS motor a dozen or more times in an hour. It's not the type of machine you want to leave running when not directly in use as we all know. So there must be some difference in the motors. What about other heavy iron in the shop with large motors.

Unrelated but a place I worked in the past had some huge, 2000hp motors that turned some equally sized pumps. The starting procedure only allowed one start every 45 minutes IF the winding temperature had dropped to some specified temp which I don't recall. The windings have thermocouples embedded in them to monitor temp at all times. I don't remember the starting amp draw but running I believe they were around 190A @ 4160v.

That would make a heck of a dust collector IF you could afford the electric.  [eek]
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline kevinculle

  • Posts: 418
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2021, 07:28 AM »
That seems a non-sensical constraint for a dust collector.  I have a 2HP, 1100 CFM unit that I routinely start and stop many times an hour...15-20 times would not be at all unusual as I work my way through operations on different machines.  It sounds like the motor duty cycle has not been properly matched to the typical operating regime of a dust collector.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1408
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2021, 08:35 AM »

Secondary moral to the story, never buy equipment needed to run for a living from a hobby-orientated company that doesn't stand behind its product. Hopefully a more commercially-targeted company would have such necessary info laid out.

This stands for most things. It's why you pay more for a big company most the time, but you get something that has had more design/testing/etc put into it (most the time, even big companies make mistakes). A lot of small companies, or 1 man operations are often started from "I could make that, and do it for less" mentality. Which is often what gets to the situation you have.

They have undersized the motor.  Maybe this was to save cost, or maybe a bigger motor would have too much inrush current. This can be managed with controls, but that is more money, or a separate small cooling fan, or a motor with bigger heat sink, or cooling.

Even if they did put the on/off limits in documentation (which would obviously kill sales), it's a ridiculous limit. Unless they put controls limits in there that prevent the user from doing it. If they have temp monitoring that prevented start, and or a soft shut down to let it cool down, then they could be in a better spot. But telling user they have to operate it in a special way, just will not work.

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 2008
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2021, 08:45 AM »
"But telling user they have to operate it in a special way, just will not work."

Especially since people in general are bad at reading manuals and following written instructions. And I am guilty of it my self with some things I buy, mostly low-priced electronic gizmos. I doubt any of us reads everything supplied with every device we buy or use.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline Mike Goetzke

  • Posts: 727
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2021, 08:57 AM »
I've had my CV1800 for 15 years now. I purchased it when it was under previous ownership. At that time I remember when installing mine I had an issue and the owner called me back on not only a Saturday but it was also the 4th of July. Maybe things have changed under new management. I'll take a look at my dated instructions but somehow I'm aware it doesn't like lots of starts/stops. I'm a hobbyist and in the habit of not shutting it down often. Like others say it has to do with the high startup current getting the high inertia blower up to speed.

Offline ChuckM

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Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2021, 09:39 AM »
"But telling user they have to operate it in a special way, just will not work."

Especially since people in general are bad at reading manuals and following written instructions. And I am guilty of it my self with some things I buy, mostly low-priced electronic gizmos. I doubt any of us reads everything supplied with every device we buy or use.

I must be one of the exceptions, partly because in a previous professional life, I produced manuals, or supervised and authorized the production of manuals as part of my responsibilities. I may skip some sections of a manual for a common device that I'm already familiar with, but I go through a manual for a new purchase in general.

It's ok to me if a machine needs to be operated in a certain way, but that instruction needs to be spelt out clearly to an owner or user, especially it's something about safety. I use most of my machines or tools in a stop-go, stop-go manner repeatedly, such as the SawStop, DF500, drill press, Kapex, cordless drills and routers. Oh well, too many to list out all of them...mine is not a production shop. I don't want any noisy machines running for no good reasons.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2021, 09:43 AM by ChuckM »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 8353
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2021, 09:51 AM »
....this is not stated anywhere on their website or product manual. His response? "Yeah, I need to get someone on that."

Sounds to me that he should direct someone into finding a substitute motor instead.   [scratch chin]

Selling this type of equipment with this type of operating directive is ludicrous. Just swap the Leeson for a Baldor motor, there isn't that much difference in cost.

Offline egmiii

  • Posts: 209
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2021, 10:17 AM »
It appears there is a bit of Clearvue bashing going on and I'd like to share my experience for those who stumble across this thread in the future.

They are a great company who stands behind the product. I've had several interactions with their sales and support staff. They are very helpful and knowledgeable.

The CV1800 provides a level of performance unmatched by anything close to it's price point. You will likely need to spend 3x as much to beat it. Plenty of production shops run them successfully.

Contrary to previous posts, the 5HP motor is adequately sized. It is of high quality. You should not start single phase 5HP and up motors with heavy fans/flywheels/etc attached more than 4-5 times per hour. The startup current is very high and will cook the windings. A Baldor would suffer the same fate. A 5HP table saw uses far less current because the blade weighs a fraction of what a dust collector fan weighs, so you can start and stop more often. If you would like to start and stop a 5HP and up motor more often, then you should use a 3 phase motor and programable VFD. You can program the motor to gently ramp up to full speed over a 10 second window. Clearvue has a 3 phase motor option. It's quite common in countries with 50hz power, as they use the VFD to generate 60hz power to maximize performance.

Granted, Clearvue should add this information to their documentation, but in their defense, it's fairly common knowledge amongst those familiar with industrial equipment. Yes, many hobbyists install them in their home shops, but this doesn't detract from the fact that it is a serious piece of equipment and should be treated with respect. Do your homework, and if you are not comfortable, but still need the performance, consider a more plug and play unit like the Felder RL200.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2021, 10:19 AM by egmiii »

Offline Banana

  • Posts: 72
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2021, 10:19 AM »
I certainly don't have all the information but if you are selling a motor that has a limited duty cycle then it seems only common sense that you would include built in thermal/overload protection if fire or permanent damage is a likely outcome, no?

Offline JonathanJung

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Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2021, 10:55 AM »
It appears there is a bit of Clearvue bashing going on and I'd like to share my experience for those who stumble across this thread in the future.

They are a great company who stands behind the product. I've had several interactions with their sales and support staff. They are very helpful and knowledgeable.

The CV1800 provides a level of performance unmatched by anything close to it's price point. You will likely need to spend 3x as much to beat it. Plenty of production shops run them successfully.

Contrary to previous posts, the 5HP motor is adequately sized. It is of high quality. You should not start single phase 5HP and up motors with heavy fans/flywheels/etc attached more than 4-5 times per hour. The startup current is very high and will cook the windings. A Baldor would suffer the same fate. A 5HP table saw uses far less current because the blade weighs a fraction of what a dust collector fan weighs, so you can start and stop more often. If you would like to start and stop a 5HP and up motor more often, then you should use a 3 phase motor and programable VFD. You can program the motor to gently ramp up to full speed over a 10 second window. Clearvue has a 3 phase motor option. It's quite common in countries with 50hz power, as they use the VFD to generate 60hz power to maximize performance.

Granted, Clearvue should add this information to their documentation, but in their defense, it's fairly common knowledge amongst those familiar with industrial equipment. Yes, many hobbyists install them in their home shops, but this doesn't detract from the fact that it is a serious piece of equipment and should be treated with respect. Do your homework, and if you are not comfortable, but still need the performance, consider a more plug and play unit like the Felder RL200.

I'm with you on all that, the motor is fine, cycling limits is fine, the machine is good value, but I don't see ClearVue standing behind their product. To learn everything you just told me, I had to go directly to a Leeson service center and talk to a tech. Only then was it explained to me what's going on. I'm fine with a product having limited cycles per hour, but the customer needs to be informed! And not after the fact, but right up front. That's what is so sad about ClearVue's owner's response. He admitted that they've known for years about all this, but haven't done anything to educate their customers.

To give you all an idea of how limited Jason's (the Owner of Cleavue) knowledge is about motors, when I asked him if a 3ph motor would be better, he said he doesn't know much about that.

Hmm. And he's the guy who answers all tech calls.

Offline JonathanJung

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Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2021, 10:59 AM »
*Don't start the motor more than 4 times per hour*

Does this carry over to other single phase 5hp or even 3hp motors like you would find in a table saw? How many of us have a TS with a 5hp motor, probably more than have a 5hp DE. My TS is only 3hp, but I don't recall reading anything that warned of repeated starts/stops or to being limited to any set number of starts per hour. I have often started my TS motor a dozen or more times in an hour. It's not the type of machine you want to leave running when not directly in use as we all know. So there must be some difference in the motors. What about other heavy iron in the shop with large motors.

Unrelated but a place I worked in the past had some huge, 2000hp motors that turned some equally sized pumps. The starting procedure only allowed one start every 45 minutes IF the winding temperature had dropped to some specified temp which I don't recall. The windings have thermocouples embedded in them to monitor temp at all times. I don't remember the starting amp draw but running I believe they were around 190A @ 4160v.

That would make a heck of a dust collector IF you could afford the electric.  [eek]

It has been explained to me by the Leeson tech why other machines can start much more often. They have less load. A blade on a TS or a head on a planer has little resistance compared to a massive fan. There's hardly another machine in the shop that comes close to the startup load by the 16" impeller in the DC. My 37" dual head drum sander probably is as much if not more, but it would be odd to start that up more than a couple times an hour.

For this reason, it is best to start the DC with all blast gates closed.

Offline ChuckM

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Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2021, 11:02 AM »
Snip.
Granted, Clearvue should add this information to their documentation, but in their defense, it's fairly common knowledge amongst those familiar with industrial equipment. Yes, many hobbyists install them in their home shops, but this doesn't detract from the fact that it is a serious piece of equipment and should be treated with respect.

How can anyone treat a machine with the respect it deserves if they, as a user, are not properly informed by the merchant in the first place? ???

« Last Edit: March 29, 2021, 11:05 AM by ChuckM »

Offline JonathanJung

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Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2021, 11:05 AM »
Exactly right. Expecting to sell to hobbyists with knowledge about operating industrial equipment is not just illogical, but foolish.

Offline egmiii

  • Posts: 209
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2021, 11:16 AM »
Exactly right. Expecting to sell to hobbyists with knowledge about operating industrial equipment is not just illogical, but foolish.

Maybe. Personally I wouldn't take the risk owning this business, but they have decided to serve a market that clearly exists - hobbyists who seek an industrial class dust collector at an affordable price. I'm thankful I had the opportunity to buy one as I'm sure many others are.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1408
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2021, 11:26 AM »
It appears there is a bit of Clearvue bashing going on and I'd like to share my experience for those who stumble across this thread in the future.

They are a great company who stands behind the product. I've had several interactions with their sales and support staff. They are very helpful and knowledgeable.

The CV1800 provides a level of performance unmatched by anything close to it's price point. You will likely need to spend 3x as much to beat it. Plenty of production shops run them successfully.

Contrary to previous posts, the 5HP motor is adequately sized. It is of high quality. You should not start single phase 5HP and up motors with heavy fans/flywheels/etc attached more than 4-5 times per hour. The startup current is very high and will cook the windings. A Baldor would suffer the same fate. A 5HP table saw uses far less current because the blade weighs a fraction of what a dust collector fan weighs, so you can start and stop more often. If you would like to start and stop a 5HP and up motor more often, then you should use a 3 phase motor and programable VFD. You can program the motor to gently ramp up to full speed over a 10 second window. Clearvue has a 3 phase motor option. It's quite common in countries with 50hz power, as they use the VFD to generate 60hz power to maximize performance.

Granted, Clearvue should add this information to their documentation, but in their defense, it's fairly common knowledge amongst those familiar with industrial equipment. Yes, many hobbyists install them in their home shops, but this doesn't detract from the fact that it is a serious piece of equipment and should be treated with respect. Do your homework, and if you are not comfortable, but still need the performance, consider a more plug and play unit like the Felder RL200.

Motor can be adequately sized, just not adequately controlled. If the user can easily do something they destroys it or creates a safety issue (fire), there is a problem. Just putting instructions in the manual is not acceptable. This is why products all around us have various "features", as the lawyers for those companies learned you can't just tell a user "don't do this", you have to stop them from being able to do it.  Turning something on and off too often doesn't fall under a case of obvious mis-use of the product.

The product may be much cheaper than other products out there, but if it's cheaper because they didn't put the money into a proper control system, then none of that matters. Back to my comment about "I can do the same for less".

"common industrial knowledge" doesn't mean anything and has no place here.  You sell a product, you have to understand liability for it. It absolutely needs to be covered in the manual, and needs to have a label right on the machine notifying the user. But really the issue needs to be eliminated.  I'm curious if this has any UL rating to it (the product, not the motor).

Offline egmiii

  • Posts: 209
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2021, 12:14 PM »

Motor can be adequately sized, just not adequately controlled. If the user can easily do something they destroys it or creates a safety issue (fire), there is a problem. Just putting instructions in the manual is not acceptable. This is why products all around us have various "features", as the lawyers for those companies learned you can't just tell a user "don't do this", you have to stop them from being able to do it.  Turning something on and off too often doesn't fall under a case of obvious mis-use of the product.

I disagree. Your table saw/router manual probably says it's for cutting wood products only. Does your router stop you from feeding in a piece of plate steel? Should I try cutting a sheet of glass on the saw? By your logic, the saw shouldn't allow me to do that, even though the manual says not to. As you move into product categories that require some specialized knowledge to operate, some responsibility has to fall upon the owner/operator.

"common industrial knowledge" doesn't mean anything and has no place here.  You sell a product, you have to understand liability for it. It absolutely needs to be covered in the manual, and needs to have a label right on the machine notifying the user. But really the issue needs to be eliminated.  I'm curious if this has any UL rating to it (the product, not the motor).

The first thing I said was "Granted, Clearvue should add this information to their documentation", so I agree it should be there. I'm not sure how much experience you have in the world of industrial machinery, but assumptions are made on the base level of product knowledge by end users. General warnings in the manual written by lawyers cover the obvious stuff, but they can't cover everything. Never doubt the ingenuity of an idiot.

Online squall_line

  • Posts: 181
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2021, 12:46 PM »
The first thing I said was "Granted, Clearvue should add this information to their documentation", so I agree it should be there. I'm not sure how much experience you have in the world of industrial machinery, but assumptions are made on the base level of product knowledge by end users. General warnings in the manual written by lawyers cover the obvious stuff, but they can't cover everything. Never doubt the ingenuity of an idiot.

Given lead times on user manuals (depending on how they're produced), updating the website and adding a sticker to the unit itself seems like a pretty good interim solution.  It bothered me at least a little bit to read "yeah, I've been meaning to have someone do that" as the response.

Of course, that's also my response way more often than I would like it to be, so it brings up feelings of guilt when I hear someone else say it.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1408
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2021, 12:46 PM »
You can mis-use anything.  The big key is when a system/device/feature/etc can be made and put in place to prevent something. In this case, they very much can stop/prevent the issues with controls. Thermal switches/limiters are not anything special. When there are systems that can be put on to prevent the issue and the manufacture does not, that is where they get in trouble.

Turning something on and off is not something that is expected to cause an issue. Plus if the result was just shorter life of product, then it wouldn't be that big of a deal. It's that this is a fire hazard that makes this a serious issue. And the manufacture clearly knows there is an issue.

If someone turns a light on and off non stop and it fry's the bulb, they replace the bulb and move on. If someone turns a light on and off and it burns the house down, there are major lawsuits.

They are selling these to anyone. If they do think this is an acceptable situation, they better have a tag at the power switch that has to be removed by the owner were "by removing you acknowledge....." .  But that doesn't do anything to help the next owner, next user, etc.

Using the dust extractor isn't requiring someone to be licensed/take a training program and get a cert/etc.  So you cannot expect a user to have special knowledge.  If this was an industrial environment, and this was the situation, all users would have to go thru training, sign acknowledgements, etc.

Offline egmiii

  • Posts: 209
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2021, 01:26 PM »
You do realize the Clearvue is a kit, right? Anyone can buy it, but that doesn't mean anyone should. This is not a mass market item like a light bulb. It doesn't come with a power switch, or cord. You have to wire it into your own homebrew switch gear, or buy their switch, which still requires line voltage wiring. You mount the impeller to the motor shaft, assemble the impeller shrouds, silicone and screw it all together, then mount it to your structure. If you don't have specialized knowledge/experience in equipment assembly, there is a strong possibility, if done wrong, it could come apart and kill you.

They source a reasonably priced 5HP motor, which doesn't include thermal overload switches (to my knowledge). I think they are smart enough to avoid the liability of modifying an existing (likely UL listed) motor to add their own. So they would need to source a motor with this feature already present, and control system sophisticated enough to alert the user. I'm not sure how much that would add to the cost, but I have several similar sized motors on other woodworking equipment that costs an order of magnitude more, and they do not offer this feature. If you start and stop them too often, the offboard capacitor melts down in the control box and you replace it.

Regularly inspect your motors, keep them free of sawdust buildup, and maintain adequate offsets from combustible materials and you should be fine. This is a common best practice across all woodworking machinery. Like I said before, they should amend the documentation and probably add a warning sticker. But I don't want to see the business unfairly destroyed from posts with eye catching taglines. It's a great product for the right customer.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7349
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2021, 01:28 PM »

Motor can be adequately sized, just not adequately controlled. If the user can easily do something they destroys it or creates a safety issue (fire), there is a problem. Just putting instructions in the manual is not acceptable. This is why products all around us have various "features", as the lawyers for those companies learned you can't just tell a user "don't do this", you have to stop them from being able to do it.  Turning something on and off too often doesn't fall under a case of obvious mis-use of the product.

I disagree. Your table saw/router manual probably says it's for cutting wood products only. Does your router stop you from feeding in a piece of plate steel? Should I try cutting a sheet of glass on the saw? By your logic, the saw shouldn't allow me to do that, even though the manual says not to. As you move into product categories that require some specialized knowledge to operate, some responsibility has to fall upon the owner/operator.

I disagree.

The examples you give are totally out of the scope of the tool's normal use. But turning a dust collector On and Off sure is, and should never under any circumstance lead to a dangerous situation. A mere mention in the manual is not acceptable, and certainly will not be in court, when it comes to that.

Offline egmiii

  • Posts: 209
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2021, 01:49 PM »

Motor can be adequately sized, just not adequately controlled. If the user can easily do something they destroys it or creates a safety issue (fire), there is a problem. Just putting instructions in the manual is not acceptable. This is why products all around us have various "features", as the lawyers for those companies learned you can't just tell a user "don't do this", you have to stop them from being able to do it.  Turning something on and off too often doesn't fall under a case of obvious mis-use of the product.

I disagree. Your table saw/router manual probably says it's for cutting wood products only. Does your router stop you from feeding in a piece of plate steel? Should I try cutting a sheet of glass on the saw? By your logic, the saw shouldn't allow me to do that, even though the manual says not to. As you move into product categories that require some specialized knowledge to operate, some responsibility has to fall upon the owner/operator.

I disagree.

The examples you give are totally out of the scope of the tool's normal use. But turning a dust collector On and Off sure is, and should never under any circumstance lead to a dangerous situation. A mere mention in the manual is not acceptable, and certainly will not be in court, when it comes to that.

How would I know that cutting steel and glass are "totally out of the scope of the tool's normal use"?

I was previously told ""common industrial knowledge" doesn't mean anything and has no place here.".

Seems like it does have a place...

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1408
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2021, 01:51 PM »
You do realize the Clearvue is a kit, right? Anyone can buy it, but that doesn't mean anyone should. This is not a mass market item like a light bulb. It doesn't come with a power switch, or cord. You have to wire it into your own homebrew switch gear, or buy their switch, which still requires line voltage wiring. You mount the impeller to the motor shaft, assemble the impeller shrouds, silicone and screw it all together, then mount it to your structure. If you don't have specialized knowledge/experience in equipment assembly, there is a strong possibility, if done wrong, it could come apart and kill you.

They source a reasonably priced 5HP motor, which doesn't include thermal overload switches (to my knowledge). I think they are smart enough to avoid the liability of modifying an existing (likely UL listed) motor to add their own. So they would need to source a motor with this feature already present, and control system sophisticated enough to alert the user. I'm not sure how much that would add to the cost, but I have several similar sized motors on other woodworking equipment that costs an order of magnitude more, and they do not offer this feature. If you start and stop them too often, the offboard capacitor melts down in the control box and you replace it.

Regularly inspect your motors, keep them free of sawdust buildup, and maintain adequate offsets from combustible materials and you should be fine. This is a common best practice across all woodworking machinery. Like I said before, they should amend the documentation and probably add a warning sticker. But I don't want to see the business unfairly destroyed from posts with eye catching taglines. It's a great product for the right customer.

So looking back I see it involves some assembly, they certainly don't call it a kit.  That doesn't change anything.  What will destroy a company is if they sell something that is a fire hazard and are not taking precautions. Further this is what kills off whole industries or paths for consumers. As a company not ensuring safety gives regulators a reason to prevent all such sales. We live in a world that loves to stop people from doing there own stuff. If you are going to sell something, you have to make sure it will be done right, everyone knows what is involved.  This is selling something so people don't have to roll their own. Giving businesses a pass on this sort of thing is exactly what will prevent any company from offering such systems in the future.

Remove personal attachment from a business. They can be great people, great service, etc.  They need at a minimum need to highlight this issue heavily throughout their documentation, but more realistically locate a motor that will support a thermal switch and make it part of the required kit. The first house that gets burned down will end their business. And worse for all, it could lead to bans of these motors, bans on homeowners wiring up large motors, bans on dust collectors in structure attached to homes......on and on.  They need to get this right. They acknowledge the issue from what the users have stated. So this isn't and over site, ignorance, etc.

Overheating motor, directly attached to fine dust in a high flow air stream is a terrible combination.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2021, 02:02 PM by DeformedTree »

Offline cpw

  • Posts: 278
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2021, 01:55 PM »
Oneida has a similar limitation; but it is included in the manual that you should not start the dust collector more than 6 times per hour.

I have an iVac system for my V-3000, and you need a switch that has modified "minimum run time" firmware to prevent repeated stop/start cycles.  [This is clearly on the iVac website as well.]

As long as you keep the motor running it is fine, it is just the large inrush current that is problematic.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 2378
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2021, 01:56 PM »
So they would need to source a motor with this feature already present, and control system sophisticated enough to alert the user. I'm not sure how much that would add to the cost,
I'm sure it would cost less than burned down shop.
DC is a type of equipment which is turned on and off often, especially in a small shop. If it catches fire after being turned on more than 4 times an hour, then its back to the drawing board. Thermal protection, soft start, timed switch, I don't care. As it is it would be a deal breaker for me. The last thing I need is keeping track of when I switched my DC the last time.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2021, 02:08 PM by Svar »

Offline egmiii

  • Posts: 209
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2021, 02:15 PM »
Oneida has a similar limitation; but it is included in the manual that you should not start the dust collector more than 6 times per hour.

I have an iVac system for my V-3000, and you need a switch that has modified "minimum run time" firmware to prevent repeated stop/start cycles.  [This is clearly on the iVac website as well.]

As long as you keep the motor running it is fine, it is just the large inrush current that is problematic.

Correct. I believe the documentation is the only thing that needs to be fixed by Clearvue. Others here believe they should redesign the product to a higher standard than is followed by other major manufacturers. It would be great if they offered an option for an electronics kit that would limit the number of startups. The consumer could decide if that feature is worth the extra money. I'm the farthest thing from a legal expert, but if Oneda, a much larger retailer, isn't mandating this feature, then I'm guessing there are adequate legal protections for them should an issue arise. Developing this control hardware has it's own set of costs, engineering and legal. A small company like Clearvue may not have the resources to fund such an effort.

Offline serge0n

  • Posts: 149
Re: ClearVue Fire Warning!
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2021, 02:33 PM »
Correct. I believe the documentation is the only thing that needs to be fixed by Clearvue.

Seriously? So you are completely fine with the owner's response and the fact that @JonathanJung had to call the motor manufacturer to find out what exactly happened? Do you find it acceptable that he had to pay for a motor replacement for a motor that started a fire due to lackluster documentation? His unit was still under warranty if I'm not mistaken.
I'd be furious if it happened to me and would demand free of charge replacement.
I'm completely familiar with the start/stop cycle limitation on powerful DCs, but it must be stated in the manual.

I'm honestly shocked at Clearvue's response. They are not owning this issue, they made their customer pay for the new motor and couldn't even provide a detailed explanation on why their own product needs to be operated in a certain way.
That's mom and dad shop's approach to customer service. I thought Clearvue was a much more reliable company than that.
I think this thread alone already cost Clearvue much more than the $600 that they have refused to cover.