Author Topic: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop  (Read 111385 times)

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Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1949
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #270 on: February 09, 2017, 06:41 PM »
Peoples opinion of the inventor has nothing to do with a small company successfully defending their intelectual property from the interloping giant.
I neither like nor dislike the inventor. Patents are to protect intellectual rights while still allowing progress by others. It's a delicate balance. From my limited knowledge of the technologies involved that balance has not been achieved. Hence, we are stuck with an inferior product from a monopolist.

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Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 465
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #271 on: February 09, 2017, 07:01 PM »
"Sorry, other than its a safety feature on a TS, they really share no technical similarities.
Just another example of his douchiness. "

The whole point of the patent case was about the safety feature. An inventor has a right to defend his patent even if you do not like him.


Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1949
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #272 on: February 09, 2017, 07:09 PM »
"Sorry, other than its a safety feature on a TS, they really share no technical similarities.
Just another example of his douchiness. "

The whole point of the patent case was about the safety feature. An inventor has a right to defend his patent even if you do not like him.

And that's the problem. Imagine brothers Wright patenting motor powered flight regardless of the technical solution involved.

Offline Motown

  • Posts: 200
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #273 on: February 09, 2017, 07:19 PM »
It took me over a year to decide on which cabinet saw I should purchase, literally agonized over it while wondering how such a fun purchase could be so painful. Sawstop was absolutely one of the two saws that I was considering but I decided to go with a European sliding saw. My logic was that there were other safety factors (kickback) to also consider.

With that said, I've had my saw throw a piece of plywood into my chest (hurt and bruised like heck) because I forgot to re-attach the splitter. I am also convinced that the ability to slide the fence toward me, when I am cutting material, has absolutely prevented kickback a number of times..which would have been highly likely with any American style fence.

My point is this: Sawstop has done a great job of building a quality saw and an even better job of marketing their blade technology. But these conversations seem to be dominated by the blade technology when there other safety considerations. Bottom line, there are still choices in the market and you can always decide which saw is best for you.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 10:39 PM by Motown »

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #274 on: February 09, 2017, 07:29 PM »
A small company gets a win over a giant.

Win?  Gass is a douche

Peoples opinion of the inventor has nothing to do with a small company successfully defending their intelectual property from the interloping giant.

May be true but I would (and have) gladly spend more money for a high quality slider like a Hammer or such just so a DB like Gass doesn't get my money. Small or large business owners that treat people like numbers and dollars pay for that mentality one way or another.

Disheartening new indeed.

Cheers. Bryan.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Most companies treat their customers like numbers and dollars. And when they have patents to defend their intelectual property they have a right to defend it and their business. Bosch, Apple, Microsoft, whoever, many build their products around their patents or ones they license, nothing new there. My consumers desire for a 3rd party iPhone doesn't justify a 3rd party to infringe on Apples technology.
+1

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #275 on: February 09, 2017, 07:46 PM »
"Sorry, other than its a safety feature on a TS, they really share no technical similarities.
Just another example of his douchiness. "

The whole point of the patent case was about the safety feature. An inventor has a right to defend his patent even if you do not like him.

And that's the problem. Imagine brothers Wright patenting motor powered flight regardless of the technical solution involved.

I'd imagine they could have, might have built a fabulous business if the did and we'd still have modern planes today. That's the nature of a utility patent, as the USPTO describes it: "In general terms, a “utility patent” protects the way an article is used and works..." https://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/s1502.html

Is a REAXX used substantively differently than a sawstop? No, not really in regards to you touch the blade when spinning and a safety mechanism drops the blade and you're spared cutting your finger off.
+1

Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 939
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #276 on: February 09, 2017, 07:52 PM »
And that's the problem. Imagine brothers Wright patenting motor powered flight regardless of the technical solution involved.

They did and it held back the development of aviation in the US until the war when the government stepped in and corrected the situation.

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 465
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #277 on: February 09, 2017, 07:56 PM »
https://www.law360.com/articles/835248/ptab-got-brake-patent-invalidity-wrong-judge-says

The discussion in the above article shows that the Wright brothers argument is not valid. It appears that the basic safety concept was covered in a 1974 patent. However, the details of how to make it work quickly enough to avoid injury to a finger was the basis of the Sawstop patent. It was not just a use patent.


Offline RussellS

  • Posts: 280
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #278 on: February 09, 2017, 10:27 PM »
and unfortunately the losers are the tool-buying public.

Agree with this.  I'd love this safety feature to be on all saws going forward.  But I want the functionality and safety of a European sliding saw more than the SawStop safety feature on a US  style saw.  Someday eventually a saw will have both a European sliding table and the SawStop safety feature.

Offline Kevin D.

  • Posts: 965
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #279 on: February 09, 2017, 10:38 PM »
Funny, I don't recall the seatbelt manufacturers going after the airbag manufacturers years ago.  Isn't that what the douche is doing?
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Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #280 on: February 09, 2017, 10:44 PM »
Assuming Bosch's ITC appeal is denied and they fail to gain relief in the appeal courts - I'd expect Bosch to focus marketing and delivery of Reaxx saws in the Euro markets. Possibly with some refinements along the way.

At the start of the next decade they'll return to the U.S. with the saw and offer it at a fraction of its current selling price sounding the death knell for SawStop's jobsite version. It wouldn't be inconceivable for them to snap up a stationary tool maker just so they could then offer a cabinet saw to further compete with SS.

With the now likely ban of Reaxx looming , I don't think we've seen even a fraction of Bosch's marketing efforts devoted to it. Think about the market share possible when they really take the gloves off.  Heck, they could even give away the tech to all other manuf. thus making it the industry standard while maintaining a stranglehold on the cartridges and still profiting.

 [popcorn]
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 10:48 PM by antss »

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #281 on: February 10, 2017, 12:04 AM »
Funny, I don't recall the seatbelt manufacturers going after the airbag manufacturers years ago.  Isn't that what the douche is doing?

No, in table saws that would be two different safety devices like comparing the blade brake and the blade cover. Both provide measures of user safety but in very different ways to the user.
+1

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6764
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #282 on: February 10, 2017, 03:02 AM »
This battle is not yet over...a global supplier like Bosch will not invest this much capital into investment castings, plastic injection molds, manufacturing centers, production lines, manufacturing assembly quality control instructions/directives and quality assurance kiosks just to say.........ya...well...we give up...you won!

The good news is that Bosch clearly has the more modern approach to the missing fingers dilemma.

SS, while the early adopter in the save-my-digits program, and we need to honor/respect their first emergence...the present SS technology is the equivalent to driving around in a car with an overhead crane attached above and then dropping 30# cement blocks in front of the tires when you need to stop.   

Effective...yes, but relatively crude compared to what the Bosch technology produces. All systems evolve, and we need to embrace the enhanced capabilities of new systems yet to come rather than to legislate against them especially when operator safety is at the center of the discussion as SS has done in the past. Shame...Shame...Shame.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 12:15 AM by Cheese »

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #283 on: February 10, 2017, 10:33 PM »
And don't think for a minute Bosch isn't going to play the made in America card for this cartridge module and all the jobs they bring with that and all their other divisions plus the tax revenue they produce here on their other operations and infrastructure holdings.

- vs -

SawStop's couple dozen employees, offshore manuf. and single digit office/warehouse locations.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6764
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #284 on: February 10, 2017, 10:48 PM »
- vs -
SawStop's couple dozen employees, offshore manuf. and single digit office/warehouse locations.

Especially in 2017...

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #285 on: February 10, 2017, 11:58 PM »
- vs -
SawStop's couple dozen employees, offshore manuf. and single digit office/warehouse locations.

Especially in 2017...

The true test is, "Do they answer the phone?"

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6764
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #286 on: February 11, 2017, 12:19 AM »
The true test is, "Do they answer the phone?"

And then there was radio silence...

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 1378
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #287 on: February 20, 2017, 12:05 PM »
Received the following email this morning from Bosch:

**********************************************
Bosch REAXX™ Portable Table Saw
 
Dear Bosch User,
 
We wanted to reach out to you regarding your Bosch REAXX™ Portable Table Saw. 
We appreciate your loyalty to the Bosch brand and want to assure you that Robert Bosch Tool Corp. will continue to support and service your REAXX™ table saw, including supplying activation cartridges.
 
In late January, the U.S. International Trade Commission (ITC) instituted an exclusion order on the REAXX™ table saw.  We are now in a 60-day presidential review period, in which the President of the United States has an opportunity to review the facts of the case and then veto this exclusion order.  This order relates to the future importation of REAXX™ table saws into the U.S.; activation cartridges, which are now produced in the U.S., are not affected.
 
The ITC’s decision was based on the Administrative Law Judge’s finding against Bosch on two patents; the judge also found for Bosch on two patents.  Bosch maintains that development of its professional table saw product respects other companies’ patents and represents a new and unique technology in the construction market.  Therefore, we will be appealing this ruling.
 
At Bosch, safety is a priority, and we will work to defend consumers’ rights to buy our products.
 
Thank you for using and relying on Bosch products.
 
 
Yours sincerely,
 
 
Heiko Fischer
President, Robert Bosch Tool Corp.
 
********************************************

Offline bkharman

  • Posts: 1998
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #288 on: February 20, 2017, 01:59 PM »
Received the following email this morning from Bosch:

**********************************************
Bosch REAXX Portable Table Saw
 
Dear Bosch User,
 
We wanted to reach out to you regarding your Bosch REAXX Portable Table Saw. 
We appreciate your loyalty to the Bosch brand and want to assure you that Robert Bosch Tool Corp. will continue to support and service your REAXX table saw, including supplying activation cartridges.
 
In late January, the U.S. International Trade Commission (ITC) instituted an exclusion order on the REAXX table saw.  We are now in a 60-day presidential review period, in which the President of the United States has an opportunity to review the facts of the case and then veto this exclusion order.  This order relates to the future importation of REAXX table saws into the U.S.; activation cartridges, which are now produced in the U.S., are not affected.
 
The ITC’s decision was based on the Administrative Law Judge’s finding against Bosch on two patents; the judge also found for Bosch on two patents.  Bosch maintains that development of its professional table saw product respects other companies’ patents and represents a new and unique technology in the construction market.  Therefore, we will be appealing this ruling.
 
At Bosch, safety is a priority, and we will work to defend consumers’ rights to buy our products.
 
Thank you for using and relying on Bosch products.
 
 
Yours sincerely,
 
 
Heiko Fischer
President, Robert Bosch Tool Corp.
 
********************************************

Given the current presidency and his desire to keep everything "American", this letter should have just been a "lol... sorry (shrug)" statement.

Oh well, I was hopeful that we would still see the saw in the US. Not so much anymore.

Thanks for sharing.

Cheers. Bryan.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 1451
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #289 on: February 20, 2017, 02:44 PM »
Darn, I was really looking for the Bosch saw to take hold and give SS some competition.
I like the features in the Bosch saw and I don't like the way SS has gone about forcing
their products on everyone. Defending your IP rights is one thing, but at one time SS
tried to force the CPSC to make it mandatory to use SS technology on all table saws,
no matter who produced them. This was after they failed to get all the TS manufacturers
to license their technology and pay them a nice royalty.

I guess they are not too confident in their design so they try to squash any competition
before it can get a tow hold in the market and most likely steal their future sales out
form under them.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline justaguy

  • Posts: 208
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #290 on: February 20, 2017, 03:48 PM »
Just for the record... The Wright brothers did file for and were granted patent # 821,393. The following is an excerpt froma 2014 NY Times article titled "Greed and the Wright Brothers"

But when the Wrights applied for a patent, they didn’t seek one that just covered wing warping; their patent covered any means to achieve lateral stability. There is no question what the Wrights sought: nothing less than a monopoly on the airplane business — every airplane ever manufactured, they believed, owed them a royalty. As Wilbur Wright, who was both the more domineering and the more inventive of the two brothers, put it in a letter: “It is our view that morally the world owes its almost universal system of lateral control entirely to us. It is also our opinion that legally it owes it to us.”




"Sorry, other than its a safety feature on a TS, they really share no technical similarities.
Just another example of his douchiness. "

The whole point of the patent case was about the safety feature. An inventor has a right to defend his patent even if you do not like him.

And that's the problem. Imagine brothers Wright patenting motor powered flight regardless of the technical solution involved.

Offline johnbro

  • Posts: 128
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #291 on: February 20, 2017, 03:54 PM »
Reading this with interest. Seems like every forum where SS comes up people jump on his original story to show he's some kind of predatory monster.

So let me weigh in with both some data and some speculation...

** I sold a PM66 to buy a SawStop PCS ** If that drives you crazy, hit PgDn now.

What Gass did is what every inventor worth her salt would have done. First you secure protection for your invention (patents). He had a jump start because as a patent atty he could avoid paying outside counsel the $$$ that patents take today. They are (more often than not) rejected by USPTO and it's though a process of "prosecution" back and forth with the examiners that you finally get your award.

Next he goes to the TS manufacturers and offers his tech. Supposedly he offered it for a royalty of 8% of the wholesale price. Since big ticket items typically have less markup from wholesale to retail, let's say the wholesale price of a TS with a $2k retail price is $1500 (depending on retailer volume discounts, rebates, special offers, etc from the mfg). So the mfg would have to modify the saw to incorporate the braking mechanism, the electronics, and the switch with bypass--that's a one time fee. Let's say the modifications would add $100 to the COGS (cost of goods sold) of the saw, and the royalty would be $120, for a total of $220. The manufacturer sees this as a competitive advantage and so decides to either pass the additional COGS on to the retailer, or perhaps decides to eat some of it, expecting to make it up in increased volume through competitive advantage. Assuming the mfg passes it on to the retailer, the retail price of the SuperCutz 5000 table saw now increases from $2000 to $2200 with flesh-sensing technology. It sits on the showroom floor (of Woodcraft) next to the Powermatic 2K for $220 less but without the flesh-sensing tech.

This is the scenario the manufacturers declined to go for, and the reason is simple: they mistakenly believed that increasing the safety factor on a table saw would not lead to competitive advantage. Imagine a meeting at Delta, or Jet:

"Should we license this SawStop thing?"
"Safety doesn't sell--we've see that over and over. We'll just have a more expensive saw than everyone else and lose share."
"So if we tell everyone in the PTI (powertool institute--their trade assn) not to license it, Gass will go away, right?"
"Yeah, or else he'll bring his saw to market and fail."
"Ok, for now we decline. If another mfg wants to get in the pool first, we can see how they do."

This is EXACTLY how these kinds of decisions are made. If even one mfg had licensed the tech all the rest would have fallen into line (slow to adopt; fast to follow). ALso they were worried about potential liability--either for the new tech or for existing tech.

So here's Steve Gass with hand-saving tech no one will buy. He goes to the CPSC (after all it's a SAFETY COMMISSION) and shows them the tech and urges them to consider adopting it as a standard.

What do you think he would do? Just go home and quit?

Nonsense.

And anyone here who says they wouldn't have gone to CPSC in the same situation is probably in denial--having spent a small fortune developing a technology that can prevent great and common harm, but has no buyers? You would just give up? of course not, you would manufacture the saw yourselves, right?

Do you have any idea of what it takes to do something like that? The time, the money, the engineering, logistics, finance, dealer acquisition, marketing, support, and on and on?

To his credit he didn't just build a crappy table saw + his tech--he built arguably the best cabinet saw available + his tech.

Do they answer the phone? Yes. Try calling them or email them or chat on their website.

Do they support their product? Better than most companies. For example, free brake replacement if you stick your finger in the blade. When's the last time you got something free from Festool? Or Delta? Jet? Anybody?

Delta, Jet, General, Bosch, all of them were wrong: safety sells. With over 90,000 saws sold so far, SS is now the #1 selling cabinet saw in North America. And it's not just for the brake: for me the dust collection and the ease of changing from blade guard to riving knife were enough to make it a better option than any competing saw. The safety feature is icing.

I don't care who buys what. I really don't. But to deride this man who made a positive impact on society (hundreds or thousands of fingers saved) for what are normal business practices that almost certainly all of his detractors would have duplicated is just wrong.
TS 55, 3 guide rails, MFT 1080, RO 150, ETS 150/3, MFK 700, OF 1400, Kapex 120, Domino 500, CT 26

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 465
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #292 on: February 20, 2017, 04:57 PM »
I continue to be amazed at how some people simply refuse to recognize the right of Sawstop to defend their patents. Should Festool announce that anybody is now free to copy the patents they hold on the Domino?

In regard to licensing to other companies, I have read that liability was a major concern for the other manufacturers. They were concerned that somebody would figure out how to cut off some fingers and then get an extra large award because the safety mechanism failed.

Offline Rip Van Winkle

  • Posts: 301
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #293 on: February 20, 2017, 06:12 PM »
I continue to be amazed at how some people simply refuse to recognize the right of Sawstop to defend their patents. Should Festool announce that anybody is now free to copy the patents they hold on the Domino?

In regard to licensing to other companies, I have read that liability was a major concern for the other manufacturers. They were concerned that somebody would figure out how to cut off some fingers and then get an extra large award because the safety mechanism failed.

Bosch made a legal argument that some of the patents issued for the Sawstop design should not have been issued in the first place, and should therefore be considered invalid. After looking thru some of the Sawstop patents, and noticing things they did not claim in their patents, as well as other patents Sawstop did not cite in their patent filing, which Bosch did cite in patents related to their Reaxx saw, I'm inclined to lean towards Bosch and their claims.

There were patents for capacitance safety sensing well before Gass filed his Sawstop patents.

Droping a sawblade below a table surface is not revolutionary. There's a type of saw called a Gjerdesag made in Norway were the blade can be pulled up from below, and allowed to drop back below the saw table by letting go of a handle, when a cut is finished, or just for safety.  There is also another type of saw called an Upcut saw were the blade rises above the saw table to make cuts, and then drops back below the tanle surface, when the cut is finished, or if the safety switches held by the operator stop being pressed. The Upcut type of saw is more of a miter saw but it would hardly be novel to use one as a tablesaw , and I eouldn't be surprised if similar tablesaws have been made and used at some point. Both saw types are decades old.

Simply combining the capacitance cut off with a saw that automatically drops the sawblade below the table surface does not strike me as novel and unique as required by parent law. Ramming the saw blade into a block of aluminum to stop it quickly does strike me as novel, as does using the Bosch explosive cartridge, but neither of these novel ideas are violated by the Bosch Reaxx saw.

Offline johnbro

  • Posts: 128
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #294 on: February 20, 2017, 06:45 PM »
I continue to be amazed at how some people simply refuse to recognize the right of Sawstop to defend their patents. Should Festool announce that anybody is now free to copy the patents they hold on the Domino?

In regard to licensing to other companies, I have read that liability was a major concern for the other manufacturers. They were concerned that somebody would figure out how to cut off some fingers and then get an extra large award because the safety mechanism failed.

Bosch made a legal argument that some of the patents issued for the Sawstop design should not have been issued in the first place, and should therefore be considered invalid. After looking thru some of the Sawstop patents, and noticing things they did not claim in their patents, as well as other patents Sawstop did not cite in their patent filing, which Bosch did cite in patents related to their Reaxx saw, I'm inclined to lean towards Bosch and their claims.

There were patents for capacitance safety sensing well before Gass filed his Sawstop patents.

Droping a sawblade below a table surface is not revolutionary. There's a type of saw called a Gjerdesag made in Norway were the blade can be pulled up from below, and allowed to drop back below the saw table by letting go of a handle, when a cut is finished, or just for safety.  There is also another type of saw called an Upcut saw were the blade rises above the saw table to make cuts, and then drops back below the tanle surface, when the cut is finished, or if the safety switches held by the operator stop being pressed. The Upcut type of saw is more of a miter saw but it would hardly be novel to use one as a tablesaw , and I eouldn't be surprised if similar tablesaws have been made and used at some point. Both saw types are decades old.

Simply combining the capacitance cut off with a saw that automatically drops the sawblade below the table surface does not strike me as novel and unique as required by parent law. Ramming the saw blade into a block of aluminum to stop it quickly does strike me as novel, as does using the Bosch explosive cartridge, but neither of these novel ideas are violated by the Bosch Reaxx saw.

When a patent is filed and prosecuted, the inventor has to try to convince the USPTO that it is indeed novel and no prior art or other patent is relevant. The PTO has to process way too many patents, so they make a determination one way or the other. According to some patent lawyers I used to have for a client, normally they will reject the patent application almost out of hand, forcing the inventor to argue why it should be granted.

Granting and issuing the patent doesn't mean the invention is unique or even that it doesn't infringe someone else's patent. That's why we have courts where--in a case like SS vs Bosch--both sides go into detail as to why or why not there is an infringement. The court makes the determination. The legal standard for granting or upholding a patent have little to do with the examples you just cited. For instance, the patent for Nutrasweet (aspartame) is for its use as an artificial sweetener, not for the chemical itself. If you discovered a 10mm wrench could be used for open-heart surgery in a way no one had ever thought of before, you could patent that process.

Adjudicating the SS patents in a woodworking forum is fairly pointless since the ITC has already ruled. Whether SS has patents in the EU that will also be defended against the Bosch saw remains to be seen, I guess. And of course Donald Trump could always overturn the ITC ruling and let the Bosch saws be sold in the US.
TS 55, 3 guide rails, MFT 1080, RO 150, ETS 150/3, MFK 700, OF 1400, Kapex 120, Domino 500, CT 26

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6764
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #295 on: February 20, 2017, 09:16 PM »
And of course Donald Trump could always overturn the ITC ruling and let the Bosch saws be sold in the US.

If they're made in the USA, we have a chance, if they're made in Taiwan like SS, then it's up for grabs. 
« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 09:19 PM by Cheese »

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 465
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #296 on: February 20, 2017, 09:46 PM »
I am almost certain that the Bosch Reaxx is not made in the USA. Does Bosch make anything in the USA?

Offline Rip Van Winkle

  • Posts: 301
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #297 on: February 21, 2017, 04:26 AM »
I am almost certain that the Bosch Reaxx is not made in the USA. Does Bosch make anything in the USA?

Bosch manufactures and/or assembles appliances in the USA nowadays.

Bosch used to manufacture a number of power tool models in the USA, at least for the US market, but most of that production has shifted to Mexico or elsewhere by now.

Bosch may also manufacture some automotive parts in the USA.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6764
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #298 on: February 21, 2017, 08:46 AM »
Does Bosch make anything in the USA?

I think Bosch like Festool, will be opening manufacturing facilities in the US. Certainly, that would go a long ways during the Presidential review period of this patent litigation. It could even turn the odds in Bosch's favor.

Just waiting to see that TS or Domino with made in USA on the label. [cool]
« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 08:48 AM by Cheese »

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 870
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #299 on: February 21, 2017, 09:24 AM »
Reading this with interest. Seems like every forum where SS comes up people jump on his original story to show he's some kind of predatory monster.

So let me weigh in with both some data and some speculation...

** I sold a PM66 to buy a SawStop PCS ** If that drives you crazy, hit PgDn now.

What Gass did is what every inventor worth her salt would have done. First you secure protection for your invention (patents). He had a jump start because as a patent atty he could avoid paying outside counsel the $$$ that patents take today. They are (more often than not) rejected by USPTO and it's though a process of "prosecution" back and forth with the examiners that you finally get your award.

Next he goes to the TS manufacturers and offers his tech. Supposedly he offered it for a royalty of 8% of the wholesale price. Since big ticket items typically have less markup from wholesale to retail, let's say the wholesale price of a TS with a $2k retail price is $1500 (depending on retailer volume discounts, rebates, special offers, etc from the mfg). So the mfg would have to modify the saw to incorporate the braking mechanism, the electronics, and the switch with bypass--that's a one time fee. Let's say the modifications would add $100 to the COGS (cost of goods sold) of the saw, and the royalty would be $120, for a total of $220. The manufacturer sees this as a competitive advantage and so decides to either pass the additional COGS on to the retailer, or perhaps decides to eat some of it, expecting to make it up in increased volume through competitive advantage. Assuming the mfg passes it on to the retailer, the retail price of the SuperCutz 5000 table saw now increases from $2000 to $2200 with flesh-sensing technology. It sits on the showroom floor (of Woodcraft) next to the Powermatic 2K for $220 less but without the flesh-sensing tech.

This is the scenario the manufacturers declined to go for, and the reason is simple: they mistakenly believed that increasing the safety factor on a table saw would not lead to competitive advantage. Imagine a meeting at Delta, or Jet:

"Should we license this SawStop thing?"
"Safety doesn't sell--we've see that over and over. We'll just have a more expensive saw than everyone else and lose share."
"So if we tell everyone in the PTI (powertool institute--their trade assn) not to license it, Gass will go away, right?"
"Yeah, or else he'll bring his saw to market and fail."
"Ok, for now we decline. If another mfg wants to get in the pool first, we can see how they do."

This is EXACTLY how these kinds of decisions are made. If even one mfg had licensed the tech all the rest would have fallen into line (slow to adopt; fast to follow). ALso they were worried about potential liability--either for the new tech or for existing tech.

So here's Steve Gass with hand-saving tech no one will buy. He goes to the CPSC (after all it's a SAFETY COMMISSION) and shows them the tech and urges them to consider adopting it as a standard.

What do you think he would do? Just go home and quit?

Nonsense.

And anyone here who says they wouldn't have gone to CPSC in the same situation is probably in denial--having spent a small fortune developing a technology that can prevent great and common harm, but has no buyers? You would just give up? of course not, you would manufacture the saw yourselves, right?

Do you have any idea of what it takes to do something like that? The time, the money, the engineering, logistics, finance, dealer acquisition, marketing, support, and on and on?

To his credit he didn't just build a crappy table saw + his tech--he built arguably the best cabinet saw available + his tech.

Do they answer the phone? Yes. Try calling them or email them or chat on their website.

Do they support their product? Better than most companies. For example, free brake replacement if you stick your finger in the blade. When's the last time you got something free from Festool? Or Delta? Jet? Anybody?

Delta, Jet, General, Bosch, all of them were wrong: safety sells. With over 90,000 saws sold so far, SS is now the #1 selling cabinet saw in North America. And it's not just for the brake: for me the dust collection and the ease of changing from blade guard to riving knife were enough to make it a better option than any competing saw. The safety feature is icing.

I don't care who buys what. I really don't. But to deride this man who made a positive impact on society (hundreds or thousands of fingers saved) for what are normal business practices that almost certainly all of his detractors would have duplicated is just wrong.

Agree 100% and one of those fingers saved is mine. I had a slip up 2 years ago after a 24 year run of no incidents. Streaks can't go on forever. Gass invented a safety device that prevents horrific life changing injuries. He has every right to stop someone from infringing on his patents. It should be noted that prior patents can be used to create a new patent if the combination represents something unique. Something that seems obvious today was not so obvious when he invented and patented it.