Author Topic: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop  (Read 111386 times)

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Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1949
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #180 on: June 07, 2016, 07:14 PM »
That's all conjecture all around frankly and admittedly shows my general disdain for SawStop and its owner.

The table saw that some folks love to hate.

I dare say that it's not the saws, which happen to be very well made; it's the owner of the company that draws fire due to his business practices.

That "fire" is most certainly disproportionate considering the "business practice" episode that took place 10 years ago. Case closed, lesson learned. Give it a rest. Most of the big business done worse things than that without drawing much attention. Give Guss some credit for delivering revolutionary product and waking saw makers out of coma. Without him competitors like Reaxx would not have been on the market today.

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Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #181 on: June 07, 2016, 08:54 PM »

That "fire" is most certainly disproportionate considering the "business practice" episode that took place 10 years ago. Case closed, lesson learned. Give it a rest. Most of the big business done worse things than that without drawing much attention. Give Guss some credit for delivering revolutionary product and waking saw makers out of coma. Without him competitors like Reaxx would not have been on the market today.

That's pretty much my take on things as well. I not only give him credit but also some business. I hope the Bosch meets expectations for those who choose it, good to have options.
+1

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6764
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #182 on: June 08, 2016, 12:35 AM »
Quote from: Paul G link=topic=38935.msg462844#msg462844 date=
...good to have options.
[/quote

Actually, it's great to have options...you make your bed and you lie in it. 

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #183 on: June 08, 2016, 01:34 AM »
Actually, it's great to have options...you make your bed and you lie in it.

Ironically, some new beds are projects that I'll likely use my sawstop on, and I'll even lay in them  [cool].
+1

Offline bigjonh

  • Posts: 128
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #184 on: June 08, 2016, 05:25 AM »
Hmmm, now do I buy a reaxx? Or 1/3 of a Mafell Erica?  [tongue]

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #185 on: June 08, 2016, 06:40 AM »
Hmmm, now do I buy a reaxx? Or 1/3 of a Mafell Erica?  [tongue]

If you have a Kapex or CMS, then the relaax seems logical.

But Reaxx and Kapex must be more than 1/3 Erika if the Reaxx alone is 1/3-Erika

Offline jamanjeval

  • Posts: 83
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #186 on: June 16, 2016, 11:07 AM »
If you activate this 25 times or more while using it you should never be allowed to use a table saw again.
[/quote]

You're assuming that each activation is due to the blade sensing actual flesh. Yes, if you actually touch the blade 25 times, you probably should not use a table saw. However, there can be false activations due to cutting wet wood or conductive materials like aluminum foil clad foam insulation board.

25 activations seem like a lot, but I predict that some users are going to hit this number easily with all of them being triggered by non-flesh contact.

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 870
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #187 on: June 16, 2016, 12:48 PM »

If you activate this 25 times or more while using it you should never be allowed to use a table saw again.

You're assuming that each activation is due to the blade sensing actual flesh. Yes, if you actually touch the blade 25 times, you probably should not use a table saw. However, there can be false activations due to cutting wet wood or conductive materials like aluminum foil clad foam insulation board.

25 activations seem like a lot, but I predict that some users are going to hit this number easily with all of them being triggered by non-flesh contact.

If it activates on non-flesh contact then it's an inferior product when compared to a SawStop. I do agree there could be some occurrences where it could misfire such as wet wood and other materials. Of course you would rather have a false positive misfire in any case. I've had a SawStop since 2006 and have never had a misfire. Given the Bosch is mobile it will have a lot more opportunity to have damp wood run through it, but it does have a bypass for those times.

I do agree that if someone activates this 25 times or more while using it you should never be allowed to use a table saw again or you have a defective tablesaw. The advantage of the Reaxx is that a tripping does not damage the blade. This is a true advantage if the trip was inadvertent, however if it was a finger save the operator needs to stand down for at least a day. Swapping out the cartridge and continuing to work on the saw is insane.

Offline Shane Holland

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #188 on: June 16, 2016, 12:50 PM »
Swapping out the cartridge and continuing to work on the saw is insane.

The cartridges can be used twice. You pull it out and flip it over and you're back in action. So, that's another benefit.

Of course, if you trip it twice, you'll need a new cartridge.
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Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 1378
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #189 on: June 16, 2016, 12:59 PM »
Re. Bosch Reaxx table saw - The fence is much better than Saw Stop's.  It is aluminum under the removable plastic, self-aligning, locks front and rear and has a t-track on top that allows for the Jessem table saw clear cut guides to be used (I think - will test them as soon as they arrive).

No special cartridge needed to use a dado blade.

The only negative I have found so far is the saw blade tilt mechanism is difficult to use,  but it is a job site saw and that's why I bought the Beall Tilt Box ii.

Otherwise,  it seems to be the perfect compliment to a track saw for the small shop.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2016, 02:14 PM by RobBob »

Offline jkasten101

  • Posts: 3
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #190 on: September 29, 2016, 12:25 AM »
this is my first post, and in a weird location, but I had heard that Bosch had been sued by sawstop and that all the bosch saws where to be recalled?  maybe im wrong...OH and im glad to be here!

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 1378
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #191 on: September 29, 2016, 07:16 PM »
this is my first post, and in a weird location, but I had heard that Bosch had been sued by sawstop and that all the bosch saws where to be recalled?  maybe im wrong...OH and im glad to be here!

SawStop did sue Bosch.  Saws have not been recalled.  ToolNut has them. 

I have been very satisfied with my Reaxx table saw.  I had a jet 3hp cabinet saw a few years ago that I sold due a shortage of space.  After registering my saw for warranty purposes, Bosch sent me a set of replacement cartridges free of charge.  My saw has never tripped the safety mechanism and I hope it never does.

Here's the latest from Bosch:

"Although Bosch does not normally discuss details of litigation because we feel it is best handled in the context of the legal proceedings, we have seen statements about litigation concerning the Bosch REAXX™ Jobsite Table Saw that give a misleading impression of what has occurred.

At this time legal proceedings are still under way. The International Trade Commission (ITC) will review the initial determination provided by the Administrative Law Judge on Sept. 9, 2016, as well as additional arguments from the parties, before it makes any decision in the matter. The commission’s decision is not expected until early January 2017. Contrary to any other implication, the patent legal proceedings are ongoing and not final.

The Bosch REAXX Jobsite Table Saw is based on patented technology developed by the Power Tool Institute and the engineering team at Robert Bosch Tool Corp. in Mount Prospect, Ill. We believe that advanced REAXX safety technology does not violate any competitor’s intellectual property rights.

It is disappointing that a competitor is continuing its campaign to stop the sale of patented REAXX technology to consumers. The patents asserted against REAXX are based on applications filed more than 15 years ago; Bosch does not believe they apply to REAXX technology. In addition, Bosch believes that if the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office had complete information it would not have issued certain patents in the first place.

Bosch has vigorously defended, and will continue to defend, its ability to make REAXX table saws available in the United States. In addition, Bosch will continue to pursue its own claim of patent infringement against the competitor filed in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Illinois.

The ongoing litigation has no effect on distributors’ ability to buy or sell Bosch REAXX table saws. REAXX cartridges, accessories and service parts are available. The Bosch commitment to provide safe products to users is critical today and in the future."
# # #
« Last Edit: September 30, 2016, 06:59 PM by RobBob »

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #192 on: September 29, 2016, 11:01 PM »
This seems to be a new twist in the arguement.

Bosch claiming that some of SS's Patent(s) shouldn't have been issued because Bosch had previously patented the idea ???

This will get really juicy if thats correct and not just a PR offensive.  Kinda makes me wonder if the judge's latest ruling accounted for that arguement and denied it  or if it's new territority.

Popcorn anyone ?

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4437
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #193 on: September 29, 2016, 11:52 PM »
This seems to be a new twist in the arguement.

Bosch claiming that some of SS's Patent(s) shouldn't have been issued because Bosch had previously patented the idea ???

This will get really juicy if thats correct and not just a PR offensive.  Kinda makes me wonder if the judge's latest ruling accounted for that arguement and denied it  or if it's new territority.

Popcorn anyone ?


Not what it means.

"The patents asserted against REAXX are based on applications filed more than 15 years ago; Bosch does not believe they apply to REAXX technology. In addition, Bosch believes that if the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office had complete information it would not have issued certain patents in the first place."

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 465
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #194 on: September 30, 2016, 12:04 AM »
In case someone has not seen recent news, the initial ruling in the lawsuit was in favor of Sawstop.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6764
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #195 on: September 30, 2016, 12:17 AM »
In case someone has not seen recent news, the initial ruling in the lawsuit was in favor of Sawstop.

Wow that's interesting...and surprising. Is there a link available?

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 465
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #196 on: September 30, 2016, 07:32 AM »
I have not learned link posting yet.  I Googled sawstop lawsuit recent results. Perhaps someone else can help

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #197 on: September 30, 2016, 07:37 AM »
In case someone has not seen recent news, the initial ruling in the lawsuit was in favor of Sawstop.

Wow that's interesting...and surprising. Is there a link available?

It is what reply 191 is referring to.

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/2016/09/13/sawstop-initial-victory-lawsuit-bosch

Tom

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1844
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #198 on: September 30, 2016, 07:43 AM »
In case someone has not seen recent news, the initial ruling in the lawsuit was in favor of Sawstop.

That was the ruling by an Administrative Law Judge in the Bosch quote above.  That quote in its entirety neatly summarizes the current status.  This will carry on for some time, meanwhile Bosch seems to have the ability to continue selling their competing tech.
-Raj

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6764
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #199 on: September 30, 2016, 10:45 AM »
It is what reply 191 is referring to.

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/2016/09/13/sawstop-initial-victory-lawsuit-bosch

Thanks Tom...

Interesting things to note, from the Power Tool Institute:
...operators are nearly five times more likely to contact the saw blade of a SawStop saw as opposed to the operator of a conventional table saw.
http://www.powertoolinstitute.com/pti-pages/it-table-saw-facts.asp

Bosch's response:
http://www.finehomebuilding.com/2016/09/15/bosch-responds-sawstop-lawsuit

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1949
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #200 on: September 30, 2016, 01:36 PM »
Interesting things to note, from the Power Tool Institute:
...operators are nearly five times more likely to contact the saw blade of a SawStop saw as opposed to the operator of a conventional table saw.
http://www.powertoolinstitute.com/pti-pages/it-table-saw-facts.asp

I'd question that. Number of Sawstop "incidents" is based on the number of cartridges sold. That includes everything: misfire due to wet lumber, miter gauge/fence contact, etc., contacts which would not have led to a serious injury on a conventional saw. In contrast to that the data from conventional saws only includes incidents which ended up in ER.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2016, 02:07 PM by Svar »

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #201 on: September 30, 2016, 02:04 PM »
This drama will be going on for a long time, or at least until the sawstop patents expire.
+1

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #202 on: September 30, 2016, 03:16 PM »
Not what it means.

"The patents asserted against REAXX are based on applications filed more than 15 years ago; Bosch does not believe they apply to REAXX technology. In addition, Bosch believes that if the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office had complete information it would not have issued certain patents in the first place."
[/quote]

I think y'all should read between the lines here 😏

What is or was the "complete information" referred to in this release ?
The judge did not side with SS on all of its claims, but enough to move the claim to the next step. 

While a win for SS , I think it falls short of a "victory" that the linked article claims.

Reaxx are still on sale, and SS hasn't been granted damages, and they sure haven't received a check.  The war continues.

Back to the complete info question.  From my read of the complaint summary and ruling it would seem that the infringement claim (with teeth anyway ) centers around SS's tight definition of flesh sensing tech.  From this release it would seem Bosch is going to challenge the latest  ruling and initial patent on the basis that GAss &co. Shouldn't have been granted a patent on that because Bosch already developed that in another division. 

Anyone CLOSELY following this have a comment on that ? Reading just the headlines won't get it done on this one , sorry gallery.  There are many, many layers to this onion.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4437
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #203 on: September 30, 2016, 03:37 PM »
"Shouldn't have been granted a patent on that because Bosch already developed that in another division."

Where do you get this from?

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #204 on: September 30, 2016, 04:24 PM »
From between the lines.  I could be waaay off base though.  [unsure] [unsure] [unsure]

My understanding is the judge's finding said Bosch infringed because Reaxx uses a "cartridge" that is expended on triggering and  it's system uses "stored energy" to move a component after detecting a fault.  SS's other claims were denied or not addressed.

Let's assume I have the facts mixed up, misinterpreted , or my premise is just wrong-  THEN WHAT is that trial balloon from Bosch trying to say about the Patent Office not having all the correct info ? 

That public argument doesn't say the judge erred; it says in a veiled manner the P.O. screwed up.  My inference from that is that Bosch's contention is SS's tech shouldn't have been patent-able presumably because Bosch already had a system designed somewhere in their system.

Like I already said - this could totally just be a PR move by Bosch to shape public perception.  This is not a simple case of little guy invents the wheel, patents it, and big business come along and copies it and thumbs its nose at little guy.  Management of western conglomerates don't like the risk that would  come with outright copying something like this. Either on the $$$ side if found in violation, or with the brand image of kicking the little guy in the teeth.  The German mentality would allow them to proceed if they thought they'd come up with something different , or already had that tech in house before the other guy.


Offline Rip Van Winkle

  • Posts: 301
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #205 on: September 30, 2016, 04:32 PM »
Some of the Sawstop patents had claims concerning the blade dropping below the table. There have been saws available for decades, that use a circular blade of the type used on a tablesaw, where the blade can be raised above the saw table to cut, and when a handle is released, the blade will automatically drop below the table, either due to a spring, or gravity, or both. The main saw of this design I know of is called a Gjerde saw after the inventor, and is commonly used in Scandinavian countries. I believe there are other designs as well though.

Another of the Sawstop patent claims had to due with the sawblade lowering due to the centrifugal force or momentun of the spinning blade. It would not surprise me if past saw designs, had cutting retractable cutting blades, whose retraction was assisted by the centrifugal force of a spinning blade, even if no patent had specifically been issued related to this. If there was a saw design from the past that could be shown to have this feature, it would count as prior art, and this patent claim would not be considered valid.

I haven't been able to find any more information on the subject, but when the Sawstop patents started to be discussed at length on various forums and magazines, I saw a comment from somebody who claimed that dyring the 1960's or 1970's, there was a tablesaw of some sort shown at a woodworking or industrial show in Germany, whose blade was designed to stop in case the blade contacted the user. Supposedly the woodworkers who saw the saw laughed at it, and nothing more came if it. Unfortunately, I don't speak or read German, so I haven't gone to the effort of trying to see if a German patent was issued for the saw. From the way the claims in the sawstop patents I've read are written, I suspect that there was some sort of prior art that would have prevented a patent from being issued, for the blade stopping simply because of physical contact with the blade.

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #206 on: September 30, 2016, 06:01 PM »
Some thoughts and info from reading about the Bosch.

I don't see how skin sensing by SS is enforceable. We've had touch lamps and other touch sensitive devices long before SS was available.

I believe what the items from the other division are the cartridges that force the blade below the table. They are nitrogen cartridges that come from the Bosch automotive division. The cartridge is used to lock seat belts in an accident.

The Bosch does not jamb the blade or use blade motion to lower the blade. It uses the charge from the cartridge to rapidly lower the blade.

Tom

Offline TSO Products

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #207 on: September 30, 2016, 08:44 PM »
the next time you read media reports that SawStop won a legal victory over BOSCH, you may want to check the newsreleases at SawStop and compare the text. Then ask yourself how much objective journalism was involved in the media report vs. rephrasing or simply copying a corporate newsrelease.
Let me know if you find evidence that I am way off base in this propaganda war which has baely begun.
Hans
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Offline Holmz

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #208 on: September 30, 2016, 10:12 PM »
...
 Then ask yourself how much objective journalism was involved in the media report vs. rephrasing or simply copying a corporate newsrelease.
Let me know if you find evidence that I am way off base in this propaganda war which has baely begun.
Hans

This applies to just about all journalism these days.

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 465
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #209 on: September 30, 2016, 11:05 PM »