Author Topic: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop  (Read 113626 times)

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #150 on: December 29, 2015, 11:26 AM »

To me the good thing here is that regulators can now intelligently mandate a capability rather than a proprietary product (which has always been my beef in this area).


Frankly I see nothing intelligent about mandating this capability.

Except of course eliminating a large percentage of the estimated $2.6Billion/yr in medical costs for TS accidents...in the USA alone.

Seat Belts are mandated
Shatter-Proof glass is mandated
Hearing protection is mandated
Helmets are mandated (construction)
Etc, Etc....

I DO see the benefits of mandating safety technology...especially for products and conditions that have been clearly identified as being problems. Table saws fit this bill in spades.


Frank

The Sawstop and now the Bosch address physical contact with the blade after all other safety devices fail to protect the user which is one form of table saw accidents. 

Kick back is another form of table saw accident with serious consequence.  It would be interesting to review safety records to see if kick back is the more serious and more common cause of table saw accidents.  It would also be interesting to understand which forms of accidents occur in commercial versus residential use.

Blade guards, riving knives, anti-kickback pawls and other safety devices are also fitted to reduce the likelihood of kick back.

My own person experience is that I had a non-injury kick-back that missed me but never a flesh/blade contact.  This doesn't constitute a study, but I think kick-back has a measure of unpredictability that is terrifying such as when a stress relieved board tries to grab the blade.  Sure the riving knife or splitter can help, but it really depends on how the board splits.

Sliding table saws have a number of features that are unique in comparison to regular table saws that enhance safety.  In addition to the usual guards, sliding table saws allow the user to stand to the side of the saw instead of the front of the saw and thereby reduce the likelihood of serious kickback injury aimed at the user from the waist up.  Sliding saws also allow the user to set-up cuts so that the users hands are no where near the blade.  In addition sliding saws allow the fence to be slid to reduce the likelihood of fence jammed kickback.  Of course, conventional table saws could be retrofitted with this improvement.

For my money, I think that I would rather have a saw that helps me utilize it in an inherently safe manner by keeping me away from the blade and out of the path of most kickbacks.

Sliding table saws tend to be more expensive than conventional table saws but they also offer enhanced capability and productivity as well as keeping me away from the blade.

So there is more than one way to provide safety and stopping the blade only protects against one form of accident involving physical contact with the blade.

I'm saving up for a sliding saw and I would have been pretty angry if the cost of such saws was increased for safety device that while useful is way less useful than getting me a well designed much safer saw than my ancient Rockwell/delta.


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Offline jimbo51

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #151 on: May 05, 2016, 10:21 PM »
I found a comment recently that the lawsuit may go to trial sometime this month (May 2016). I have no idea how long this sort of trial lasts. I also do not know how often a settlement is made after a trial starts, but before a decision is rendered.

I still think a settlement would be a smart move for Sawstop. If Bosch loses, they lose a small increment in sales. If Sawstop loses, they lose a possibly significant amount of sales as people either are mad at Sawstop actions or they think the Bosch mechanism is superior.

Offline Kev

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #152 on: May 06, 2016, 12:11 AM »
I found a comment recently that the lawsuit may go to trial sometime this month (May 2016). I have no idea how long this sort of trial lasts. I also do not know how often a settlement is made after a trial starts, but before a decision is rendered.

I still think a settlement would be a smart move for Sawstop. If Bosch loses, they lose a small increment in sales. If Sawstop loses, they lose a possibly significant amount of sales as people either are mad at Sawstop actions or they think the Bosch mechanism is superior.

Gass stands for Greed And SawStop. I hope Bosch smash him to bits.

Offline Shane Holland

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #153 on: May 06, 2016, 12:13 AM »
We're taking orders for the Reaxx, ships June 1st. A little competition in the marketplace is always healthy for consumers.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 12:20 AM by Shane Holland »
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Offline Dovetail65

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #154 on: May 06, 2016, 12:22 AM »
I didn't like the Saw Stop at all.  For me the Saw Stop's fantastic industrial table saw didn't translate to their portable offering. Its like they made a typical run of the mill table saw, put on the safety protection and think its worth 1500., its not.  IF the Saw Stop didn't have the safety tech its a 350.00 Bench saw, IMHO. I prefer a couple of my DeWalts over it.

From using Bosch's other portable table saws I am betting the Bosch is going to be the better saw, regardless of the safely tech. If  the safety tech does work on this Bosch and it appears it does, I think Saw Stop may just drop their portable saw down the line. Otherwise they are going to have to step up their game.

I hope this Bosch is a great saw and spurs even more competition because we should be getting these saws for about 750.00, even 500.00. Until they sell at a reasonable price I won't buy a safety saw again for myself, but I would for a crew saw. I had one guy cut his finger off and for that reason alone I would get another. At least now I have a choice, good on Bosch.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 12:29 AM by Dovetail65 »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline Kev

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #155 on: May 06, 2016, 01:15 AM »
We're taking orders for the Reaxx, ships June 1st. A little competition in the marketplace is always healthy for consumers.

@Shane Holland I hope you sell a million of them [big grin] [big grin]

Offline jimbo51

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #156 on: May 06, 2016, 10:09 AM »
Shane,

As I believe I have said before, it only takes one injunction to stop the sale of the Reaxx anywhere in the US. If Bosch says you can start selling on June 1, then they must have manufactured a large number of the saws already. They are either confident of a quick win in the lawsuit or they are wiling to do a settlement. Otherwise, they could end up sitting on that inventory for years.

If it does not violate terms of sale, it would be interesting to know if the Reaxx is already in the warehouse or, if not, when the saws do arrive.

Offline Alex

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #157 on: May 06, 2016, 02:46 PM »
They are either confident of a quick win in the lawsuit or they are wiling to do a settlement. Otherwise, they could end up sitting on that inventory for years.

Bosch is a company with a $5 billion annual profit.

You can bet they have a strategy for the release of this saw.

And this plays only in North America, that's the only place where SawStop operates. Bosch can sell their saws over the entire world.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 05:46 PM by Alex »

Offline Dovetail65

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #158 on: May 06, 2016, 03:47 PM »
Bosch had a world wide revenue of 70 billion Euro for all divisions combined  last year and the guy with the  most stock has a 4.6 billion dollar personal fortune. I  know there is talk that out of all that revenue they actually didn't make much profit, still their lawyers would eat Saw Stop for breakfast.

More imporat it appears the technology is completely different. I am sure  Bosch patent lawyers did their due diligence.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 03:54 PM by Dovetail65 »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline JimH2

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #159 on: May 06, 2016, 05:29 PM »
I didn't like the Saw Stop at all.  For me the Saw Stop's fantastic industrial table saw didn't translate to their portable offering. Its like they made a typical run of the mill table saw, put on the safety protection and think its worth 1500., its not.  IF the Saw Stop didn't have the safety tech its a 350.00 Bench saw, IMHO. I prefer a couple of my DeWalts over it.

From using Bosch's other portable table saws I am betting the Bosch is going to be the better saw, regardless of the safely tech. If  the safety tech does work on this Bosch and it appears it does, I think Saw Stop may just drop their portable saw down the line. Otherwise they are going to have to step up their game.

I hope this Bosch is a great saw and spurs even more competition because we should be getting these saws for about 750.00, even 500.00. Until they sell at a reasonable price I won't buy a safety saw again for myself, but I would for a crew saw. I had one guy cut his finger off and for that reason alone I would get another. At least now I have a choice, good on Bosch.

I could not agree more on the portable SawStop. I think it was rushed to market the fight of the pending release of the Reaxx. I have the SawStop Professional and it is a very well built saw.

Offline JimH2

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #160 on: May 06, 2016, 05:31 PM »
We're taking orders for the Reaxx, ships June 1st. A little competition in the marketplace is always healthy for consumers.

Your site lists the retail cost which is similar to the 4100 which sells for around $700. I take it that there will be a similar reduction from list price.

Offline Alex

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #161 on: May 06, 2016, 05:49 PM »
Bosch had a world wide revenue of 70 billion Euro for all divisions combined  last year and the guy with the  most stock has a 4.6 billion dollar personal fortune. I  know there is talk that out of all that revenue they actually didn't make much profit, still their lawyers would eat Saw Stop for breakfast.

Right, I should have used the word profit, not turnover. Changed it in my post.


Offline Shane Holland

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #162 on: May 06, 2016, 06:47 PM »
Your site lists the retail cost which is similar to the 4100 which sells for around $700. I take it that there will be a similar reduction from list price.

@JimH2 this is one of those items where the manufacturer prohibits discounting. So that's the price.
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Online Cheese

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #163 on: May 06, 2016, 11:09 PM »
Ya I'm at a loss as to say who is the biggest sinner in this battle.

The Bosch 4100 is a $700 table saw, yet, the 4100 improved version with the addition of a finger saver costs $800 more. As much as I dislike the Gass Guy...this whole thing smacks of sucking the life blood out of your current customers. I had hoped that Bosch would have been more sensitive to their existing customers and would have actually tried to be a service to their existing customer base rather than trying to hold them hostage.
I own a Bosch 4000 saw and love it, and would have gladly upgraded to this new version, however this new marketing twist leaves a sour taste in my mouth. 
« Last Edit: May 07, 2016, 09:08 AM by Cheese »

Offline Kevin D.

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #164 on: May 12, 2016, 03:00 PM »
Ya I'm at a loss as to say who is the biggest sinner in this battle.

The Bosch 4100 is a $700 table saw, yet, the 4100 improved version with the addition of a finger saver costs $800 more. As much as I dislike the Gass Guy...this whole thing smacks of sucking the life blood out of your current customers. I had hoped that Bosch would have been more sensitive to their existing customers and would have actually tried to be a service to their existing customer base rather than trying to hold them hostage.
I own a Bosch 4000 saw and love it, and would have gladly upgraded to this new version, however this new marketing twist leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

It may look the same at first glance. but to my surprise, there's a lot more to it than their 4100 model.  After watching this video, I see where the pricing is more justified.  Adding a brain and better fence for one are big leaps imo.



https://www.boschtools.com/us/en/boschtools-ocs/table-saws-gts1041a-09-113798-p/
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 03:03 PM by Kevin D. »
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Offline jimbo51

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #165 on: May 12, 2016, 03:46 PM »
A quick Google search indicated that the 4100 weighs 60 lbs and the Reaxx weighs 78 lbs. Would the sensing and retraction mechanisms add 18 lbs?

I would hope that the Reaxx has a heavier frame. The fact that Bosch recommends sending the saw in four service after 25 actuations suggests how much stress the firing mechanism puts on the alignment of the saw.

Obviously Bosch could have priced the Reaxx a bit lower than the Sawstop (or allowed discounting). However, they may have decided to not risk a price war which would decrease profit margins. They are likely banking on some superior design features and the dislike many have for Sawstop due to various actions that Sawstop has taken over the last several years.




Offline kcufstoidi

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #166 on: May 12, 2016, 09:25 PM »
Ya I'm at a loss as to say who is the biggest sinner in this battle.

The Bosch 4100 is a $700 table saw, yet, the 4100 improved version with the addition of a finger saver costs $800 more. As much as I dislike the Gass Guy...this whole thing smacks of sucking the life blood out of your current customers. I had hoped that Bosch would have been more sensitive to their existing customers and would have actually tried to be a service to their existing customer base rather than trying to hold them hostage.
I own a Bosch 4000 saw and love it, and would have gladly upgraded to this new version, however this new marketing twist leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

Someone has to pay for a superior design, a cartridge that can fire twice and not destroy blades in the process. The sawstop looks archaic in design by comparison. I sure overtime the price will soften and deals will pop up.

John

Online Cheese

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #167 on: May 12, 2016, 10:37 PM »
It may look the same at first glance. but to my surprise, there's a lot more to it than their 4100 model.  After watching this video, I see where the pricing is more justified.  Adding a brain and better fence for one are big leaps imo.

@Kevin D.
Thanks for posting, that was very informative. I'm still not completely convinced of the pricing disparity, but will probably embrace it faster than if I had not seen the video. I learned something...thanks. 

Offline jimbo51

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #168 on: June 04, 2016, 08:35 AM »
I see that Toolnut is listing the Bosch Reaxx as in stock. Has anyone bought one yet?

I will have to find the closest dealer to Philadelphia and take a look at one.

Offline Kev

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #169 on: June 04, 2016, 09:12 AM »


Offline Shane Holland

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #170 on: June 04, 2016, 11:32 AM »
I see that Toolnut is listing the Bosch Reaxx as in stock. Has anyone bought one yet?

Yes, we do have them in stock. I think we've just about sold out but have more on the way.
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Offline danbox

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #171 on: June 04, 2016, 12:04 PM »
A quick Google search indicated that the 4100 weighs 60 lbs and the Reaxx weighs 78 lbs. Would the sensing and retraction mechanisms add 18 lbs?

I would hope that the Reaxx has a heavier frame. The fact that Bosch recommends sending the saw in four service after 25 actuations suggests how much stress the firing mechanism puts on the alignment of the saw.

Obviously Bosch could have priced the Reaxx a bit lower than the Sawstop (or allowed discounting). However, they may have decided to not risk a price war which would decrease profit margins. They are likely banking on some superior design features and the dislike many have for Sawstop due to various actions that Sawstop has taken over the last several years.
If you activate this 25 times or more while using it you should never be allowed to use a table saw again.

Offline danbox

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #172 on: June 04, 2016, 12:20 PM »
Anyone know when these will be available in the UK and what the price will be?

Offline Kevin D.

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #173 on: June 07, 2016, 03:59 AM »
A quick Google search indicated that the 4100 weighs 60 lbs and the Reaxx weighs 78 lbs. Would the sensing and retraction mechanisms add 18 lbs?

I would hope that the Reaxx has a heavier frame. The fact that Bosch recommends sending the saw in four service after 25 actuations suggests how much stress the firing mechanism puts on the alignment of the saw.

Obviously Bosch could have priced the Reaxx a bit lower than the Sawstop (or allowed discounting). However, they may have decided to not risk a price war which would decrease profit margins. They are likely banking on some superior design features and the dislike many have for Sawstop due to various actions that Sawstop has taken over the last several years.

Funny.  I just inadvertently saw the SawStop equivalent to the Reaxx today for the first time visiting my local Lee Valley here in Canada.  While I may be jaded from years of using a cabinet saw, just in fiddling with raising the blade, it felt flimsy, after which. I quickly moved on to other things more pressing on my visit.  Maybe that's where Bosch went and built something of their own better and where SS decided to build a POS lower end unit to get people to opt for their much more expensive other models.  That's all conjecture all around frankly and admittedly shows my general disdain for SawStop and its owner.

When it comes to a price war, SS just announced a price reduction on all their saws days ago.  When you stop and look at the Davey and Goliath in this, Bosch is the Goliath by far.  But SS is hardly a 'Davey".  They're more like a pestering and unwelcoming gnat that needs to finally be swatted away.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 04:04 AM by Kevin D. »
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Offline Kev

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #174 on: June 07, 2016, 04:25 AM »

Funny.  I just inadvertently saw the SawStop equivalent to the Reaxx today for the first time visiting my local Lee Valley here in Canada.  While I may be jaded from years of using a cabinet saw, just in fiddling with raising the blade, it felt flimsy, after which. I quickly moved on to other things more pressing on my visit.  Maybe that's where Bosch went and built something of their own better and where SS decided to build a POS lower end unit to get people to opt for their much more expensive other models.  That's all conjecture all around frankly and admittedly shows my general disdain for SawStop and its owner.

When it comes to a price war, SS just announced a price reduction on all their saws days ago.  When you stop and look at the Davey and Goliath in this, Bosch is the Goliath by far.  But SS is hardly a 'Davey".  They're more like a pestering and unwelcoming gnat that needs to finally be swatted away.

You made me giggle and choke on the wine I was drinking [tongue]

Offline Paul G

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #175 on: June 07, 2016, 11:08 AM »
That's all conjecture all around frankly and admittedly shows my general disdain for SawStop and its owner.

The table saw that some folks love to hate.
+1

Offline danbox

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #176 on: June 07, 2016, 12:20 PM »
What is the shelf life of the cartridge's? As someone who have never had an accident on a table saw this is still a great feature to have but if the cartridge's are never used what life span do they have before they need replacing?

Offline Matthew Lennon

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #177 on: June 07, 2016, 12:22 PM »
What is the shelf life of the cartridge's? As someone who have never had an accident on a table saw this is still a great feature to have but if the cartridge's are never used what life span do they have before they need replacing?

Bosch has listed these cartridges to have a 20 year shelf life.
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Offline danbox

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #178 on: June 07, 2016, 12:25 PM »
What is the shelf life of the cartridge's? As someone who have never had an accident on a table saw this is still a great feature to have but if the cartridge's are never used what life span do they have before they need replacing?

Okay cheers, well the four cartridges should be more than enough for me then.

Bosch has listed these cartridges to have a 20 year shelf life.

Offline Sparktrician

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #179 on: June 07, 2016, 06:47 PM »
That's all conjecture all around frankly and admittedly shows my general disdain for SawStop and its owner.

The table saw that some folks love to hate.

I dare say that it's not the saws, which happen to be very well made; it's the owner of the company that draws fire due to his business practices.
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