Author Topic: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop  (Read 114680 times)

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Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 983
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #60 on: March 18, 2015, 03:12 PM »
The advantage of a per saw sold license fee is easy money.  Most of the R&D cost has been amortized over many years of air bag sales.  Doubt the additional cost to adapt it to a table saw was much more by Bosch standards.

I could see licensing it for cabinet saws, but no need to bring in competition below Bosch's price point.

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Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 2023
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #61 on: March 18, 2015, 04:01 PM »
Did I imagine in or was there a rumor about Sawstop changing the blade guard on their jobsite saw to improve dust collection? Both the Sawstop and Bosch saws have pretty sad looking blade guards.

Sawstop says that the release of a guard with a dust port is close. Also, on a YouTube video put out by Sawstop within the past 2 weeks made with a contractor who uses the saw, the guard with the dust port was on his saw. The Festool 50mm hose fits on the port under the blade. With a Y connector on the Festool vacuum and the Festool overarm structure, it's possible you could do both. I would guess that would eliminate almost all dust. The collection without the blade guard is great already.
Randy

Offline thedude306

  • Posts: 192
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #62 on: March 18, 2015, 04:05 PM »
Did I imagine in or was there a rumor about Sawstop changing the blade guard on their jobsite saw to improve dust collection? Both the Sawstop and Bosch saws have pretty sad looking blade guards.

Sawstop says that the release of a guard with a dust port is close. Also, on a YouTube video put out by Sawstop within the past 2 weeks made with a contractor who uses the saw, the guard with the dust port was on his saw. The Festool 50mm hose fits on the port under the blade. With a Y connector on the Festool vacuum and the Festool overarm structure, it's possible you could do both. I would guess that would eliminate almost all dust. The collection without the blade guard is great already.

I think the current blade guards are about safety??  I know mine are clunky on the bosch.  There is a Bosch version in the UK that has a dust port built in and rides/attaches to the riving knife.

Brad T.

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 2023
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #63 on: March 18, 2015, 04:20 PM »
Did I imagine in or was there a rumor about Sawstop changing the blade guard on their jobsite saw to improve dust collection? Both the Sawstop and Bosch saws have pretty sad looking blade guards.

Sawstop says that the release of a guard with a dust port is close. Also, on a YouTube video put out by Sawstop within the past 2 weeks made with a contractor who uses the saw, the guard with the dust port was on his saw. The Festool 50mm hose fits on the port under the blade. With a Y connector on the Festool vacuum and the Festool overarm structure, it's possible you could do both. I would guess that would eliminate almost all dust. The collection without the blade guard is great already.

I think the current blade guards are about safety??  I know mine are clunky on the bosch.  There is a Bosch version in the UK that has a dust port built in and rides/attaches to the riving knife.

The Sawstop blade guard on the job site saw is actually not very obtrusive. It has an integrated riving knife and the saw has a separate riving knife for when you take the blade guard off. Conceivably you could just use the separate riving knife and, if you used devices like the Grripper, you would be protected, especially considering the blade brake on the saw. However, that wouldn't be the safest way to use it. I would assume the blade guard with dust collection is the same as the original blade guard on the saw.
Randy

Offline Grasshopper

  • Posts: 595
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #64 on: March 18, 2015, 06:15 PM »
Here is a video!!!

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Offline promark747

  • Posts: 482
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #65 on: March 18, 2015, 06:55 PM »
Cool video...would have been funny if they showed the guy being distracted by a pretty woman walking by.  ;D

Offline wow

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #66 on: March 18, 2015, 07:58 PM »
If I end up doing my trailer build, that saw is gonna have to go on the list...
Trying to be one of the most helpful members on the FOG.

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 499
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #67 on: March 18, 2015, 09:45 PM »
It will be interesting to see if Bosch puts some pressure on dealers to keep the price up initially. A selling price of under $1000 would be a serious problem for SawStop. However, we do not know how low SawStop could go and still make a profit.

Offline leer

  • Posts: 262
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #68 on: March 18, 2015, 10:05 PM »
How does 4.0 HP @15amps and 110 volts compare to 3.0 HP and 220 volts?

Not quite sure what you are asking, but you cannot get 4HP from "something" drawing 15 amps at 110 (120) volts.  The power consumed by a motor drawing 15A @ 120VAC is 1800 watts.  One horsepower equals 746 watts, so that motor, at best, could produce about 2.4 HP.
Lee

Offline Ajax

  • Posts: 196
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #69 on: March 18, 2015, 10:56 PM »
Wow...great video.

Bosch just trumped Saw Stop in the portable jobsite table saw market.

Competition is GOOD.
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Offline Kevin D.

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #70 on: March 19, 2015, 12:31 AM »
I just don't ever understand the GREAT merits of the SS technology.  It only mitigates one scenario of bad TS usage and leaves you complacent if you rely on it for what are many other ones.  It's also a bad sense of security to get formed when you move around using different TS's on different occasions forgetting ultimately the fundamentals in doing so for the one that the the sawstop protects you from.

For anybody who uses TS's regularly and/or who know best practices in using, this technology is useless largely and can only add to other non sawstop type saw usages that can now more readily result in injury if a SS type saw user becomes accustomed to but forgets about when using non-sawstop styled equipment.

Good for newbies (somewhat with still some exception in general) or those who are generally derelict in TS usage probably or who don't have any guards and bring their fingers mm's from their blades for which I myself never do.  For everybody else....beware!
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Offline grbmds

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #71 on: March 19, 2015, 07:45 AM »
I just don't ever understand the GREAT merits of the SS technology.  It only mitigates one scenario of bad TS usage and leaves you complacent if you rely on it for what are many other ones.  It's also a bad sense of security to get formed when you move around using different TS's on different occasions forgetting ultimately the fundamentals in doing so for the one that the the sawstop protects you from.

For anybody who uses TS's regularly and/or who know best practices in using, this technology is useless largely and can only add to other non sawstop type saw usages that can now more readily result in injury if a SS type saw user becomes accustomed to but forgets about when using non-sawstop styled equipment.

Good for newbies (somewhat with still some exception in general) or those who are generally derelict in TS usage probably or who don't have any guards and bring their fingers mm's from their blades for which I myself never do.  For everybody else....beware!

Great if you don't need it or want it. I guess you've never been using a power tool and, for a fraction of second, lost concentration or been distracted before you realize what you're doing. For 30+ years I've been using power tools, including table saws. I find that something like the blade brake technology is an insurance policy against just that one fraction of a second when I do something that I know isn't right and shouldn't do, but, for some reason, it just happened. This rare and, luckily I have never been seriously cut on a table saw. I know all the right things to do. I own Grrippers for ripping wood on a table saw to keep my hands as far away as possible. Still, every once in awhile, a random event happens where the wood blade gets buried in the wood, a small piece kicks back while I'm sawing, or, because I'm sawing a small piece, my hands get a little closer to the blade than I would like. A Sawstop user hopes the bade brake never trips (foolish to think otherwise) but, why take a chance, everything else being equal. If the larger Sawastop saws were junk and much more expensive than others at the same level, I'd say it's of no value. However, that's not true. So, why not have the extra protection. I have aged in 30 years and find that the extra level of protection is a good one and worth a price, just like health insurance. I don't imagine I would convince you so, I'm not trying. Just answering your question at least for me.
Randy

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 1378
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #72 on: March 19, 2015, 08:41 AM »
How does 4.0 HP @15amps and 110 volts compare to 3.0 HP and 220 volts?

Not quite sure what you are asking, but you cannot get 4HP from "something" drawing 15 amps at 110 (120) volts.  The power consumed by a motor drawing 15A @ 120VAC is 1800 watts.  One horsepower equals 746 watts, so that motor, at best, could produce about 2.4 HP.

I was comparing the Bosch specs to a typical 3hp 220v cabinet saw.  In the link above, Bosch lists the new saw at 4hp @ 15amps.

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 1378
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #73 on: March 19, 2015, 08:46 AM »
I was a little surprised when I first saw the new Saw Stop jobsite saw in person.  They used plastic everywhere.  I guess it saves weight and keeps costs down.

I'll be interested to see how the Bosch compares in that regard.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7862
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #74 on: March 19, 2015, 09:32 AM »
I just don't ever understand the GREAT merits of the SS technology...

After reading this article,

http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/41564/sawstop-inventor-steve-gass-defends-the-latest-tablesaw-verdicts/page/all

the item that impacted me the most was that according to the CPSC (Consumer Product Safety Commission), the table saw retail market is $200-400 million per year, while the cost of the injuries from table saws, is estimated by the CPSC to be $2.36 billion per year. This is a seriously upside-down situation.

Accidents are not intentional events and no one can control them. I think the above CPSC study with its lopsided numbers just proves that.


Offline Frank Pellow

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #75 on: March 19, 2015, 09:32 AM »
I was a little surprised when I first saw the new Saw Stop jobsite saw in person.  They used plastic everywhere.  I guess it saves weight and keeps costs down.

I'll be interested to see how the Bosch compares in that regard.

I think that all you will need to do is to look at the current Bosch 4100 job-site saw and you will have your answer.
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Offline Grasshopper

  • Posts: 595
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #76 on: March 19, 2015, 10:46 AM »
Bosch has released their pricing:

US: $1,499
CAN: $1,699

http://www.boschtools.com/AboutBoschTools/PressRoom/Pages/031815_reaxxsaw.aspx

It will be interesting to see if Bosch puts some pressure on dealers to keep the price up initially. A selling price of under $1000 would be a serious problem for SawStop. However, we do not know how low SawStop could go and still make a profit.
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Offline GregBradley

  • Posts: 192
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #77 on: March 19, 2015, 10:58 AM »
Bosch has released their pricing:

US: $1,499
CAN: $1,699

http://www.boschtools.com/AboutBoschTools/PressRoom/Pages/031815_reaxxsaw.aspx

It will be interesting to see if Bosch puts some pressure on dealers to keep the price up initially. A selling price of under $1000 would be a serious problem for SawStop. However, we do not know how low SawStop could go and still make a profit.
Comparing the list pricing of SS to Bosch is almost no comparison at all.

SS always sells at list. Bosch almost never does and the list price is almost silly. The list price on most Bosch items is around double the street price. The Bosch list price for the 4100 is $1170 and Amazon has them for $599. The Bosch 12" Glide list is $1528 and even when they were in high demand the highest price I saw was about $820. I considered buying one at a Bosch event at my local tools store at $489. Dewalt, Makita, Milwaukee are similar in that they are generally sold FAR below "list".

At list price in the US, the Bosch Glide Saw is MORE than the Festool Kapex that many people call expensive.

Offline atogrf1

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #78 on: March 19, 2015, 11:06 AM »
Here is the link to the video of the new Bosch saw.
If I remember right, Gass was the one that kept trying to get the feds to make "SawStop Technology" mandatory for ALL tablesaws.  That would have put the price WAAAAAY up there, and, of course, he would have made MILLIONS of dollars.
The Bosch saw won't eat up my $100+ Forrest blade, either.
I would rather keep my money away from SawStop, since they were the ones that was more than happy sticking it to all of us woodworkers in pursuit of the almighty dollar.
That is my personal opinon on it.


Offline Ajax

  • Posts: 196
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #79 on: March 19, 2015, 11:19 AM »
I'll probably still buy a SS in the next year or so.  The fit and finish are excellent on the SS PCS.  Hopefully, Bosch can drive down the price of the SS PCS with this competition in the contractor saw market.

And for all you SS haters, don't buy one.  It's as simple as that.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2015, 11:23 AM by Ajax »
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Offline atogrf1

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #80 on: March 19, 2015, 11:23 AM »
I love the SawStop product itself.  If it wasn't for the way they went about things, I would have one personally and my company would have a few of them.

I just have a personal aversion to patronizing businesses that I can't respect ethically is all.

Offline Birdhunter

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #81 on: March 19, 2015, 01:39 PM »
Regarding the post about the Sawstop safety feature adding complacency, my reaction is exactly the opposite. I've had the Sawstop Industrial (largest) for a couple of years. Knowing the safety feature is there is both comforting and, at the same time, adds a sense of being extra careful so as to not set it off.

I really appreciate the saw's great design and build quality. I think the saw's almost total lack of vibration and dead nuts accuracy are big safety features.
Birdhunter

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 983
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #82 on: March 19, 2015, 03:12 PM »
I just don't ever understand the GREAT merits of the SS technology.  It only mitigates one scenario of bad TS usage and leaves you complacent if you rely on it for what are many other ones.  It's also a bad sense of security to get formed when you move around using different TS's on different occasions forgetting ultimately the fundamentals in doing so for the one that the the sawstop protects you from.

For anybody who uses TS's regularly and/or who know best practices in using, this technology is useless largely and can only add to other non sawstop type saw usages that can now more readily result in injury if a SS type saw user becomes accustomed to but forgets about when using non-sawstop styled equipment.

Good for newbies (somewhat with still some exception in general) or those who are generally derelict in TS usage probably or who don't have any guards and bring their fingers mm's from their blades for which I myself never do.  For everybody else....beware!

Nothing to say here other than you are severely out of touch with reality. We all now know that you are perfect and have never had an accident, so yes the SawStop is not for you, but why stop there? For starters take the airbags out of your car and remove the smoke alarms from your home. As you know airbags cause people to drive more recklessly and smoke alarms allow people to get a good nights sleep.

I am detail oriented and use sound safety practices with all of my tools. The fact that I have a SawStop and it has an extra safety feature does not change the way I go about using the saw. It's there to cover me the one day there is a mishap and no matter how safe you think you are they do happen and they might not be related to your use of the saw. I'll start with a simple one: a seizure, heart attack, pass out. You can't predict these no matter how safe you are.

Finally let's consider any company that uses table saws. One accident and OSHA is all over you, Workers Comp costs increase, an employee (or yourself) can't work, and you may get sued. All those are reasons to get a SawStop or the Bosch.


Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 983
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #83 on: March 19, 2015, 03:14 PM »
I love the SawStop product itself.  If it wasn't for the way they went about things, I would have one personally and my company would have a few of them.

I just have a personal aversion to patronizing businesses that I can't respect ethically is all.

If it is ethics you are concerned with then turn in any electronic item in your house. They are all build with what is tantamount to slave labor, which is much worse than trying to push your safety device on to other manufacturers.

Offline atogrf1

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #84 on: March 19, 2015, 03:18 PM »
That is why, other than Festool, I use as many Made in the USA hand tools as possible.
(I'm a liar, I use a lot of Made in Canada, too).

Offline Sean Ackerman

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #85 on: March 19, 2015, 04:56 PM »
Some info presented today were sale price and a SOMETIME in 2015 release date.  We've got it up on the site with some comprehensive video, photos and details.

Bosch REAXX Table Saw
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Offline Cheese

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #86 on: March 19, 2015, 05:08 PM »
That is why, other than Festool, I use as many Made in the USA hand tools as possible.
(I'm a liar, I use a lot of Made in Canada, too).


I agree, if it says made in China I put it back on the shelf and look for something else.

Offline Cheese

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #87 on: March 19, 2015, 05:12 PM »
Some info presented today were sale price and a SOMETIME in 2015 release date.  We've got it up on the site with some comprehensive video, photos and details.

Bosch REAXX Table Saw

Whoops...Bosch suggested retail price is $1499. I guess Saw Stop just got bailed out of their potential conundrum.

Offline elfick

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #88 on: March 19, 2015, 05:15 PM »
Wouldn't a 15 amp 4 HP saw require 220v?

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #89 on: March 19, 2015, 05:26 PM »
The irony of this thread is some folks get all bound up about sawstop trying to legislatively mandate their safety devices in table saws, and Bosch is now coming out with a new approach of doing the same thing based on their airbag technology which is legislatively mandated here in the US for about 20 years. Should I be angry at Bosch also? This can get confusing fast LOL. FTR I oppose legislating table saw blade brakes as well as airbags in vehicles, let the market decide these things, not bureaucrats.
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