Author Topic: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop  (Read 113603 times)

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Offline thedude306

  • Posts: 192
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2015, 09:42 PM »
Competition is always good, so long as it does kill SawStop. Other manufacturers of tablesaws will probably follow behind Bosch just to avoid lawsuits. This may also lead to elimination of the sale of cheap tablesaws (sub $200) that are dangerous no matter how you use them. I have the SawStop Professional saw, which I bought immediately after seeing one at a trade show. It replaced a Delta Cabinet saw. I wanted the extra safety and build quality of the SawStop was equal to that of the Delta.

I also have the Bosch 4100 and a smaller DeWalt. Both are nice saws with the Dewalt having a exceptionally nice geared fence. The 4100 is nice to, but the build quality pales in comparison to any of the SawStop models.

The odd thing about Bosch is that they make a lot of great tools (along with a gazillion other items) and coordinating accessories (not a system like Festool has though). Lots of them don't make it to the US. With their bankroll they could cut into Festools market in short order, but they will be up against price point issues. They can't get Festool prices while slumming it at Lowe's and Home Depot with cheap tools. Festool is like Apple...they won't sell cheap stuff because there is no margin on it and once you target the bottom there is no way out. Best approach might be a new tool line that would be premium.

I don't know where to start with this post.

I keep hearing about this festool system.  Is that all the systainers I had??  It's OK but Bosch makes a better L-boxx IMO.

How do you compare a saw stop cabinet saw to a $400 job site saw in the 4100??  Not a fair comparison. 

Festool is like Apple??  That explains a lot.  I'm an apple fan for their system as well...  Too bad it's a brutal system (but I still use it)

Slumming it at the Depot....  I don't even know what to say on that one.  if we all want to whip out tools and compare, I am sure that some of us have things that make the green look like you are slumming it, but I digress.

Best tool for the job at hand.  No matter the brand or where you can purchase it from. 
Brad T.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Frank Pellow

  • Posts: 2748
  • Toronto, Ontario and Lake Pivabiska, Ontario
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2015, 10:16 PM »

...

How do you compare a saw stop cabinet saw to a $400 job site saw in the 4100??  Not a fair comparison. 
...
 

I, for one, am not even attempting to make that comparison.  I expect that the only place that SawStop and Bosch products will compete directly is with their job-site saws.

The comparison that I am making and that most people are making is on the technology to stop the saw.  From the little bit that I know about the Bosch technology at this point, my expectation (and hope) is that the Bosch technology is better.  I also hope that they licence that technology  to manufacturers of higher end table saws.
Cheers,   
               Frank (Festool connoisseur)

Offline GregBradley

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2015, 10:36 PM »
A good outcome of this would be to destroy the criminals behind Sawstop. Better would be to find them guilty of a criminal conspiracy and get them in jail where he/they belong.

Offline Frank Pellow

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2015, 10:42 PM »
A good outcome of this would be to destroy the criminals behind Sawstop. Better would be to find them guilty of a criminal conspiracy and get them in jail where he/they belong.

Greg, I guess you are one of the folks I mentioned who are not big fans of SawStop.   [scratch chin] 
Cheers,   
               Frank (Festool connoisseur)

Offline SittingElf

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2015, 03:34 AM »
To chime in on this announcement....and with a disclaimer that I am an avid SawStop fan....I think this is a great advance.  The TS companies have tried a number of so-called safety features to compete against SawStop, without having to pay royalties to SS.  Most have been marginal at best, or outright failures.

Now Bosch has come out with yet another system that is not in violation of SS patents. Good!

That being said however, from what I can read so far, Bosch is relying on their airbag technology for dropping the blade. I think I can rightly assume that the speed of the blade drop via Bosch's technique simply cannot be as microsecond fast as the explosive squib mechanism on the SS.  Saving the blade or not, I think most SS owners are not looking at cost savings vs. hospital bills.

I will be more convinced when the two systems are compared side by side with the hot dog tests at an average cut speed. If Bosch can match the speed of activation, fit and finish, accuracy, and nothing more than a bandaid needed for injury in the event of a finger contact with the blade, then, and only then will it be a true competitor of SS.

Cheers,

Frank

Woodworking is 3% talent and 97% paying attention to the FOG! 

hammerfelderowners.com

Offline SittingElf

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #35 on: March 18, 2015, 03:38 AM »
A good outcome of this would be to destroy the criminals behind Sawstop. Better would be to find them guilty of a criminal conspiracy and get them in jail where he/they belong.

That's rather inflammatory, and could be considered defamation. The statement has no basis in fact and seems more like trolling.

F
Woodworking is 3% talent and 97% paying attention to the FOG! 

hammerfelderowners.com

Offline jonny round boy

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #36 on: March 18, 2015, 05:46 AM »
That being said however, from what I can read so far, Bosch is relying on their airbag technology for dropping the blade. I think I can rightly assume that the speed of the blade drop via Bosch's technique simply cannot be as microsecond fast as the explosive squib mechanism on the SS.

Frank,

That's precisely how airbags work, it's an explosive charge. The rapidly expanding gas created by the explosion is what fills the bag.
Festoolian since February 2006

TS55R EBQ saw - CTL26 - CTL Mini - OF1400EBQ router - KS120 Kapex SCMS - ETS150/3 sander - RO90 sander - DF500 Domino - PDC18/4 drill - PSC420 jigsaw - OFK500 trimmer

Wish list (in no particular order!): Anything not listed above....

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2015, 05:54 AM »
It appears that once again a Sawstop thread is bringing out strong opinions from posters. 

Please read what you write before you hit the post button.  If you are unsure how you comments will be taken or are posting just to create a buzz - don't post.

Thank you in advance.

Peter Halle - Moderator

Offline bruegf

  • Posts: 798
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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #38 on: March 18, 2015, 07:13 AM »
A good outcome of this would be to destroy the criminals behind Sawstop. Better would be to find them guilty of a criminal conspiracy and get them in jail where he/they belong.

Whether you like SS or not, the fact of the matter is all the major mfg's dismissed the technology for various reasons, which is why SS was started.  I'm convinced that you wouldn't be seeing the Bosch technology if it wasn't for SS bringing it to market first.  Another win for competition and free market, when not hindered by narrow minds.

Fred
Fred

Offline JimH2

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #39 on: March 18, 2015, 10:18 AM »
Competition is always good, so long as it does kill SawStop.
...
Do you mean does or does not?  I know there are a lot of folks out there who do not like the way that SawStop has gone about their business but you don't sound like you are one of them.

Fixed it.

Offline JimH2

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #40 on: March 18, 2015, 10:47 AM »
Slumming it at Home Depot? I guess I am a slum customer as I like to shop at Home Depot. Lots of nice peple work there. I'd like to see Festool sold at Home Depot. Both Home Depot and Festool are great brands. I own just about every tool sold by Festool in NA. I also own DeWalt and Bosch tools mostly bought at Home Depot at great prices. Good tools, good people, good store.

Take it easy. I am referring to the race to the bottom on price at the big box stores. You do know how the big box stores work right? They lock in lower and lower prices by pressuring the manufacturers to squeeze a little here or little there to lower the price. The manufacturers know they have to tow the line or the store might drop them and being dropped out is a big deal. At those stores it is all about the price and nothing else and the only way to go lower is China, Vietnam, etc or lower build quality or use lesser materials.

Festool does not make cheap stuff period and they won't. They also raise prices each year which would never fly at a big box store. Quality never comes cheap. Most of the big box store customers are homeowners and they don't buy or expect to be able to buy expensive tools there. Most would not believe that a drill could cost $500 because how could it when they can buy 4 tools for $200 or $300 or a full-size drill press for $300.

When you add cheap anything to your offerings you have to make compromises (quality, customer service, and margin) and you don't do that to premium brands because once you start you can't turn back the clock. Some would say "They could make it up with volume." by being at the big box store, but that is rarely, if ever, the case.

The comparison with Apple is a good one. They have a premium only phone and control 90%+ of the profits in that industry. While they want everyone to buy their phones they are not willing to lower the quality and price to get that last 10% or so. They maintain hefty margins on their other items as well by not trolling the bottom and they take care of their customers, much like Festool does.


Offline alex946

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #41 on: March 18, 2015, 11:15 AM »
Должен признаться, мне абсолютно безразлична эта пила. Как, впрочем, и Sawstop.
Почему это так?
- считаю циркулярную пилу устаревшим и бессмысленным инструментом, и не имею её в мастерской уже более трёх лет.
- возможно, когда-нибудь я куплю Precisio 50 для работ на объекте, но и в этом случае, нет никакой необходимости иметь эту защиту от перепиливания пальца. Вполне достаточно соблюдать технику безопасности и не являться идиотом.

И, да, у меня все пальцы в наличии.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Must admit, I absolutely indifferent to this saw. As, however, and sawstop.
Why is this so?
- I think a circular saw obsolete and useless tool, and I do not have it in the shop for more than three years.
- Maybe someday I'll buy Festool PRECISIO 50 to work on the project, but in this case, there is no need to have this protection from sawing fingers. It is enough to observe safety precautions and do not be an idiot.

And, yes, I have all the fingers.

/dev/brain, /dev/hands, /dev/tools

Offline GregBradley

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #42 on: March 18, 2015, 11:34 AM »
A good outcome of this would be to destroy the criminals behind Sawstop. Better would be to find them guilty of a criminal conspiracy and get them in jail where he/they belong.

Greg, I guess you are one of the folks I mentioned who are not big fans of SawStop.   [scratch chin]
I have no complaints about the product. My brother even loves his.

I have a big complaint about the behavior of the company. Instead of bringing out a good product and letting the buyers choose the better product, they are trying to force their technology by legal maneuvering. One state has a bizarre way of determining liability in civil suits. Sawstop waited until there was a table saw related injury in that state and then funded the lawsuit. The person injured had removed the safety feature on that saw and was using it in a completely irresponsible manner. In that state, the design only had to contribute to the injury instead of being actually responsible.

We can assign some blame to that state legislature. California, my state, is not too far behind that state in stupid laws. Look up how one car manufacturer lost a suit for selling a car that was "too fast" for the driver.  The next step is a lawsuit against a car manufacturer for their 20-year old car allowing a drunk driver to hit someone. We are going to hear some attorney arguing that the car should have had a safety feature that prevented that.

The intent of antitrust laws is to encourage competition for a fair market.

I'm all for a company like Festool making a high quality product, supporting it well, encouraging training of the users, providing this forum for exchange of support, and then giving me the OPTION of paying the price all of that costs while allowing them to make a reasonable profit.

Offline Sparktrician

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #43 on: March 18, 2015, 11:40 AM »
I have a big complaint about the behavior of the company. Instead of bringing out a good product and letting the buyers choose the better product, they are trying to force their technology by legal maneuvering. One state has a bizarre way of determining liability in civil suits. Sawstop waited until there was a table saw related injury in that state and then funded the lawsuit. The person injured had removed the safety feature on that saw and was using it in a completely irresponsible manner. In that state, the design only had to contribute to the injury instead of being actually responsible.


Hear, hear!!! 

- Willy -

 "Remember, a chip on the shoulder is a sure sign of wood higher up." - Brigham Young

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #44 on: March 18, 2015, 11:41 AM »

That being said however, from what I can read so far, Bosch is relying on their airbag technology for dropping the blade. I think I can rightly assume that the speed of the blade drop via Bosch's technique simply cannot be as microsecond fast as the explosive squib mechanism on the SS.  Saving the blade or not, I think most SS owners are not looking at cost savings vs. hospital bills.

I've seen people make similar comments on a couple of forums, and I believe the answer is actually the opposite of what they are thinking.

Both technologies are braking the blade with an active mechanism. However, SS is passively lowering the blade, versus Bosch, which is actively lowering the blade. Getting the blade below the table is more important than braking the blade, and the active system is going to do that better.

The SS brakes the blade, and the resulting momentum causes the blade to passively drop below the table. As I understand the limited description, the Bosch system is actively firing a mechanism to lower the blade and a separate active system to brake the blade.

In other words, the SS blade won't drop below the table until after it has stopped. Dropping below the table is actually just a clever means to get rid of all the excess energy of bringing the blade to a rapid stop.

The Bosch system gets the blade below the table, where it is safe, and then worries about slowing it down. This is why it can do so without destroying the blade.

Offline elfick

  • Posts: 585
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #45 on: March 18, 2015, 11:41 AM »
A good outcome of this would be to destroy the criminals behind Sawstop. Better would be to find them guilty of a criminal conspiracy and get them in jail where he/they belong.

Greg, I guess you are one of the folks I mentioned who are not big fans of SawStop.   [scratch chin]
I have no complaints about the product. My brother even loves his.

I have a big complaint about the behavior of the company. Instead of bringing out a good product and letting the buyers choose the better product, they are trying to force their technology by legal maneuvering. One state has a bizarre way of determining liability in civil suits. Sawstop waited until there was a table saw related injury in that state and then funded the lawsuit. The person injured had removed the safety feature on that saw and was using it in a completely irresponsible manner. In that state, the design only had to contribute to the injury instead of being actually responsible.
It will be interesting to see what happens when someone is injured on a sawstop after having disabled the safety feature. :)

Offline wrightwoodwork

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #46 on: March 18, 2015, 01:03 PM »
Properly will not be insured and will not be able to make a claim is my guess

Offline Frank Pellow

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #47 on: March 18, 2015, 01:49 PM »
There is now information at the Bosch web site.  See: http://www.boschtools.com/AboutBoschTools/PressRoom/Pages/031815_reaxxsaw.aspx

I'm sorry to see that they seem to have priced their saw about the same as the SawStop job-site saw.
Cheers,   
               Frank (Festool connoisseur)

Offline grbmds

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #48 on: March 18, 2015, 01:51 PM »
Nice to see everyone is remaining civil . . . I buy tools because they are good quality period. That's one of the reasons I have bought Festool tools. Do I agree with their design on all products? No. Do I agree with all of the ways they operate? No.

Sawstop sells high quality professional table saws. I don't have a need for that right now. Their job site saw appears to also be a great saw; high quality; with the added feature of the trademark Sawstop safety mechanism. If Bosch's saw is the same high quality or of average quality with a better price and offers a similar level of safety I'm sure it will be tremendously successful and Sawstop's job site saw will lose favor and may even disappear at some point.

Do I agree with the efforts Sawstop has made to monopolize the table saw safety market? No. However, I still would put their professional table saws on top of the list, just because they are high quality and, right now, they are the only game in town with regard to the level of safety on that particular type of saw. I don't understand why that's a problem for some on this site. If it was so easy to develop this and put it out there on a professional level saw at about the same price range as other professional cabinets saws, all the manufacturers would be doing it and we wouldn 't have to have this discussion once a month. It's not. Regardless of what I think of Sawstop's efforts to create a monopoly, give them some credit for a huge advancement in table saw safety. It is a very innovative and important move in the right direction.
Randy

Offline RobBob

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #49 on: March 18, 2015, 02:11 PM »
Just like they do with airbag technology, the smartest thing Bosch could do would be to license their safe saw technology for a reasonable sum to anyone that wants it.  They would easily pay for the development cost in no time.

Offline RobBob

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #50 on: March 18, 2015, 02:14 PM »
How does 4.0 HP @15amps and 110 volts compare to 3.0 HP and 220 volts?

Offline JimH2

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #51 on: March 18, 2015, 02:19 PM »
Just like they do with airbag technology, the smartest thing Bosch could do would be to license their safe saw technology for a reasonable sum to anyone that wants it.  They would easily pay for the development cost in no time.

My guess is that you will never see this on cheap saws and apparently the bottom is about $1200 or so. This makes it a feature shootout and unless the Bosch has something more to offer SawStop will still reign supreme. The worksite saw has some really nice features (one crank blade height adjustment in 1 degree adjustments (with a fine tune knob), one hand angle adjustment, great dust collection, and built-in tool storage.

The ability to save blades after mishaps is nice, but I don't consider it much of a selling point until it is proven to be just as safe as the SawStop. Additionally if it were to trip and save a finger I don't think I'd be concerned about blade cost. If you plan on taking advantage of the blade saving feature multiple times maybe you should consider that someone else use the tablesaw.

Offline JimH2

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #52 on: March 18, 2015, 02:21 PM »
Just like they do with airbag technology, the smartest thing Bosch could do would be to license their safe saw technology for a reasonable sum to anyone that wants it.  They would easily pay for the development cost in no time.

The price differences may not be that much considering the Model 4100 w/stand lists for $1170 and sells for $599. The Reaxx lists for $1499 which would roughly equate to $750 which means the safety feature adds $150 or so. This makes the 4100 a non-buy. No one in their right mind would by a saw without it to save a $150. My ER co-pay is $200.

I don't see any advantage to licenses since they already have the cheapest game in town.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2015, 02:27 PM by JimH2 »

Offline RobBob

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #53 on: March 18, 2015, 02:36 PM »
The advantage of a per saw sold license fee is easy money.  Most of the R&D cost has been amortized over many years of air bag sales.  Doubt the additional cost to adapt it to a table saw was much more by Bosch standards.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2015, 02:39 PM by RLJ-Atl »

Offline thedude306

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #54 on: March 18, 2015, 02:38 PM »
Where did you find the $1499 price.  I must have missed that some where.  Why do manufactures retail price something that sells for 599 at $1170??  That doesn't make sense to me.

But I think you are right on the money with the $150 premium.  The PTI group that was in the law suit even stated it should only cost $55?  Even SS claimed $100.

http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/41564/sawstop-inventor-steve-gass-defends-the-latest-tablesaw-verdicts/page/all

The only reason for the licensing would be able to get into the cabinet saw market.
Brad T.

Offline RobBob

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #55 on: March 18, 2015, 02:41 PM »
Click on the above link to Bosch's announcement and scroll down.  The price is listed right there.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2015, 02:43 PM by RLJ-Atl »

Offline Frank Pellow

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  • Toronto, Ontario and Lake Pivabiska, Ontario
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #56 on: March 18, 2015, 02:45 PM »
Just like they do with airbag technology, the smartest thing Bosch could do would be to license their safe saw technology for a reasonable sum to anyone that wants it.  They would easily pay for the development cost in no time.

The price differences may not be that much considering the Model 4100 w/stand lists for $1170 and sells for $599. The Reaxx lists for $1499 which would roughly equate to $750 which means the safety feature adds $150 or so. This makes the 4100 a non-buy. No one in their right mind would by a saw without it to save a $150. My ER co-pay is $200.

I don't see any advantage to licenses since they already have the cheapest game in town.

That's encouraging.  [big grin]  I didn't realize that the list price and a "street" price of Bosch tools had that large a gap.
Cheers,   
               Frank (Festool connoisseur)

Offline Frank Pellow

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  • Toronto, Ontario and Lake Pivabiska, Ontario
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #57 on: March 18, 2015, 02:47 PM »
Where did you find the $1499 price. 

...


Look at the link that I provided in reply #48 in this thread.  It points to an "official" statement by Bosch.
Cheers,   
               Frank (Festool connoisseur)

Offline thedude306

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #58 on: March 18, 2015, 02:56 PM »
thanks gentleman, totally missed that.

It is amazing that the street price and MSRP is such a spread.

I wonder if Europe will see this saw??

I can only assume that the tech is sound.  VERY sound.  It's a law suit waiting to happen and Bosch has big pockets (they're worth suing)
Brad T.

Offline elfick

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #59 on: March 18, 2015, 03:08 PM »
Did I imagine in or was there a rumor about Sawstop changing the blade guard on their jobsite saw to improve dust collection? Both the Sawstop and Bosch saws have pretty sad looking blade guards.