Author Topic: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop  (Read 110847 times)

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Offline Ajax

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Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« on: March 16, 2015, 11:51 PM »
http://www.protoolreviews.com/tools/power/corded/saws/bosch-reaxx-table-saw-gts1041a-preview/14811/

Interesting stuff.  Looks like Bosch will have a contractor saw with this technology very soon.

Competition is good.  Kudos to Bosch.
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Offline sae

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2015, 12:02 AM »
Hope Bosch has the legal team prepped (frivolous or not).

Offline Paul G

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2015, 12:58 AM »
"A brake then stops the blade—from the sides, not through a destructive mechanism—"

"What’s more, you can reset the GTS1041A system after deployment in just under a minute!"

Sounds very interesting, hope they offer it in a cabinet grade saw to really compete with sawstop.
+1

Offline vkumar

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2015, 01:23 AM »
Hope Bosch has the legal team prepped (frivolous or not).
You gotta be kidding. Bosch has a market capitalization of $ 834 billion. I am sure they have enough lawyers to fight any lawsuits frivolous or not.

Vijay
Vijay Kumar

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2015, 02:03 AM »
Hope Bosch has the legal team prepped (frivolous or not).

I wouldn't be so quick to assume. Bosch got patents on this stuff 5 years ago.

I really like that it doesn't destroy the blade.

Offline Wooden Skye

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2015, 02:12 AM »
With Bosch being a company that understands the licensing of technology and innovation, hopefully they will get licensing deals with the major makers of cabinet saws.

I like the blade isn't destroyed as well. 

The funny part of the review was that after you set off the technology 25 times the saw needs to be taken to service center.  My first thought was maybe you should stop after setting off 2 or 3 times.  I know that on a job site many people could use, but then a better training plan is in order.
Bryan

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Offline GhostFist

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2015, 05:29 AM »
Sounds like a good system

Offline Sean Ackerman

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2015, 08:43 AM »
I'm not so sure the blade won't be destroyed, though I'm not familiar with the details yet.  Flat out, if a blade is spinning at the rpms produced by a table saw and it's stopped, no matter the mechanism, chances are that sucker will be out of true.
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Offline Sean Ackerman

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2015, 08:46 AM »
Well there's my answer.  Read the article more clearly.  Seems the blade is stopped once it's retracted, not all in one step a la Sawstop.  Wise.  This means the blade can be stopped at any speed that the manufacturer sees fit, hence not causing damage or affecting the integrity of the blade.
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Offline Frank Pellow

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2015, 08:53 AM »
I like it.  I particularly like that the blade is not destroyed.

I've considered purchasing the Saw Stop job-site saw, and still might do so, but I will now wait to see what Bosch has to offer.

I hope that this competition from Bosch will force down Saw Stop prices.  So, even if I go with Saw Stop in the end, I will wait a while to see if their prices come down.

Cheers,   
               Frank (Festool connoisseur)

Offline thedude306

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2015, 09:07 AM »
Looks interesting and promising.  My only thought was the tolerances on the mechanism to drop and get out of the way that fast.  That's a lot of force on a set of bearings or what ever it is.  And to be able to reset at the same level of accuracy will be impressive.  I hope to see it as a licensing agreement as well.   Competition is always good.  Can't wait to see the price point.

Oh, and I can't wait to see where else this system show up, with it dropping the mechanism, I think you might see it in router lifts, shapers, jointers etc. 

 
Brad T.

Offline Sparktrician

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2015, 09:08 AM »
At first glance, I'm very positively impressed by the Bosch offering.  I'm also delighted that there is now some real competition for SawStop.  It's about time!!! 

- Willy -

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Offline ali

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2015, 09:08 AM »
Will be following this for sure, SawStop missed a trick never penetrating the overseas market. I hope Bosch release this worldwide

Offline anthonyz

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2015, 09:23 AM »
Would be great if they could figure out a way to make an upgrade kit for cabinet saws. I know this wouldn't be easy, but I'm sure people would love to upgrade their saws if they didn't have to buy a new saw. a $400-$500 upgrade would be easier for people to jump on rather than a $2500+ saw upgrade. Yes, I understand you will save money if you don't cut off a finger, but some people just don't have $2500 to spend if they already have a saw. I like the idea of the Bosch design over the saw stop, but I want a cabinet saw and not a job site saw in my shop.

Offline Frank Pellow

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2015, 09:32 AM »

...

I like the idea of the Bosch design over the saw stop, but I want a cabinet saw and not a job site saw in my shop.

I am not at all concerned about the safety of the General 650 cabinet saw in my woodworking shed where I am the one who uses the saw 95% of the time and I can enforce good table saw safety upon any others who use it from time to time.

On the other hand, when I am working at a job site, other people who I have much less control of and who tend to have less experience with power tools, may be using the saw.  So it's a safe3 job site saw that I am looking for.  The type of job-site work I often participate in involves volunteers in a building-bee kind of thing.
Cheers,   
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Offline Cheese

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2015, 11:45 AM »
Sign me up for this one. I already have a Bosch 4100 and I really like it for the money. So basically this ReaXX is a 4100 with a blade dropping/stopping mechanism and it doesn't destroy the blade. Sweet. [cool]

If this saw lives up to its hype, this will be a game changer for Bosch. Especially if they keep the price to the $900-$1000 range.

Offline RL

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2015, 11:51 AM »
Hope Bosch has the legal team prepped (frivolous or not).
You gotta be kidding. Bosch has a market capitalization of $ 834 billion. I am sure they have enough lawyers to fight any lawsuits frivolous or not.

Vijay

Er, I think you're confusing the Indian listed company with the private German company Robert Bosch Gmbh which makes tools, auto parts, home appliances etc. At around 60 rupees to the dollar, that would make the market cap of the company you quoted around US$13 billion, which makes a little more sense rather than it being the largest company in the world!

 [smile]

Offline Birdhunter

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2015, 12:16 PM »
It is good that other vendors are getting into the safety market. Competition seems to enhance products.

I now own a Sawstop Industrial saw that replaced a very nice old Delta Unisaw that I owned for over 20 years. The Sawstop safety feature was the thing that got me interested in replacing the Unisaw. My dealer had Powermatic, General, and other new saws that I examined closely before settling on the Sawstop.

To my eyes, the fit, finish, engineering, and build quality of the Sawstop was far better than its competitors. After owning the Sawstop for 18 months, I remain impressed with the machine.

I say all this to emphasize that Sawstop's competitors will have to compete on not just the safety feature, but on all aspects of the machine.
Birdhunter

Offline vkumar

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2015, 12:25 PM »
Still $ 13 billion is not small potatoes.

Hope Bosch has the legal team prepped (frivolous or not).
You gotta be kidding. Bosch has a market capitalization of $ 834 billion. I am sure they have enough lawyers to fight any lawsuits frivolous or not.

Vijay

Er, I think you're confusing the Indian listed company with the private German company Robert Bosch Gmbh which makes tools, auto parts, home appliances etc. At around 60 rupees to the dollar, that would make the market cap of the company you quoted around US$13 billion, which makes a little more sense rather than it being the largest company in the world!

 [smile]
Vijay Kumar

Offline Sean Ackerman

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2015, 01:14 PM »
Sign me up for this one. I already have a Bosch 4100 and I really like it for the money. So basically this ReaXX is a 4100 with a blade dropping/stopping mechanism and it doesn't destroy the blade. Sweet. [cool]

If this saw lives up to its hype, this will be a game changer for Bosch. Especially if they keep the price to the $900-$1000 range.

Agreed, would be fantastic to see them retrofit this into the 4100 or similar model.  The new DeWalt saws have the 4100 beat in a few fit 'n finish, ergonomics and modernity areas, but this would be a game changer. 
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Offline Alex

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2015, 01:38 PM »
Bosch annual turnover is somewhere around $50 billion. They must have some dough in an old sock lying around somewhere for a lawyer or two.
 
I find this very good news. It is ridiculous that such important technology would be limited to one company who chooses to have very limited market penetration. For instance, SawStop doesn't even sell in Europe.   

Offline wow

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2015, 01:46 PM »
I think this is GREAT NEWS. Bosch certainly has the credentials to pull this off, and I like their technology MUCH better than what is on the Saw Stop. The thought that you could have the safety mechanism activate without costing $60 every time AND without wrecking the blade is HUGE!

Thinking about the blade brake after activation made me smile, as I just put new brake rotors on Mrs. WOW's truck over the weekend. I bought the best ones I could find...and they were made by Bosch!

 [thumbs up]
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Offline Frank Byers

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2015, 01:48 PM »
How about a video link...nothing online yet??

Offline grbmds

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2015, 02:02 PM »
Glad to see competition for the Sawstop job site saw. However, Bosch would have a long way to go to get into the cabinet saw market. I'm always for competition. However, the fact that the blade is destroyed when the Sawstop brake is tripped isn't a big deal for me. The goal is not to trip it ever. Repetitive trips of the blade brake would be a red flag for me on my technique or, for a contractor, the people who use it. I can tell you that one close call touching the blade whether it's gone in an instant or not would be enough to make be even more careful than I already am. Maybe it's a good thing the blade is destroyed as a lesson. If you never touch the blade you most likely won't have to replace the blade or the brake cartridge in a regular shop environment.
Randy

Offline thedude306

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2015, 04:54 PM »
Glad to see competition for the Sawstop job site saw. However, Bosch would have a long way to go to get into the cabinet saw market.

My bet is Bosch markets/licenses it to the cabinet saw maker and keeps it in their own job site saws. (not a lot of crossover on cabinet saw manufactures and job site manufactures)    At least that would make sense to me. 
Brad T.

Offline Cheese

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2015, 05:19 PM »
Glad to see competition for the Sawstop job site saw. However, Bosch would have a long way to go to get into the cabinet saw market.

My bet is Bosch markets/licenses it to the cabinet saw maker and keeps it in their own job site saws. (not a lot of crossover on cabinet saw manufactures and job site manufactures)    At least that would make sense to me. 

I agree 100%. I don't know of any large shop or machine tool that Bosch manufactures. Actually their job-site saw is probably the largest tool they do manufacture. And breaking into the large cabinet saw market would be  stretch.

Offline JimH2

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2015, 06:08 PM »
Competition is always good, so long as it does not kill SawStop. Other manufacturers of tablesaws will probably follow behind Bosch just to avoid lawsuits. This may also lead to elimination of the sale of cheap tablesaws (sub $200) that are dangerous no matter how you use them. I have the SawStop Professional saw, which I bought immediately after seeing one at a trade show. It replaced a Delta Cabinet saw. I wanted the extra safety and build quality of the SawStop was equal to that of the Delta.

I also have the Bosch 4100 and a smaller DeWalt. Both are nice saws with the Dewalt having a exceptionally nice geared fence. The 4100 is nice to, but the build quality pales in comparison to any of the SawStop models.

The odd thing about Bosch is that they make a lot of great tools (along with a gazillion other items) and coordinating accessories (not a system like Festool has though). Lots of them don't make it to the US. With their bankroll they could cut into Festools market in short order, but they will be up against price point issues. They can't get Festool prices while slumming it at Lowe's and Home Depot with cheap tools. Festool is like Apple...they won't sell cheap stuff because there is no margin on it and once you target the bottom there is no way out. Best approach might be a new tool line that would be premium.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2015, 10:18 AM by JimH2 »

Offline sae

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2015, 06:13 PM »
Competition is always good, so long as it does kill SawStop.

Freudian slip?  [laughing]


It would be amusing to see Bosch pull the plug on supplying Sawstop their portable saw for retrofit.

Offline Frank Pellow

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2015, 06:41 PM »
Competition is always good, so long as it does kill SawStop.
...
Do you mean does or does not?  I know there are a lot of folks out there who do not like the way that SawStop has gone about their business but you don't sound like you are one of them.
Cheers,   
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Offline Birdhunter

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2015, 09:29 PM »
Slumming it at Home Depot? I guess I am a slum customer as I like to shop at Home Depot. Lots of nice peple work there. I'd like to see Festool sold at Home Depot. Both Home Depot and Festool are great brands. I own just about every tool sold by Festool in NA. I also own DeWalt and Bosch tools mostly bought at Home Depot at great prices. Good tools, good people, good store.
Birdhunter

Offline thedude306

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2015, 09:42 PM »
Competition is always good, so long as it does kill SawStop. Other manufacturers of tablesaws will probably follow behind Bosch just to avoid lawsuits. This may also lead to elimination of the sale of cheap tablesaws (sub $200) that are dangerous no matter how you use them. I have the SawStop Professional saw, which I bought immediately after seeing one at a trade show. It replaced a Delta Cabinet saw. I wanted the extra safety and build quality of the SawStop was equal to that of the Delta.

I also have the Bosch 4100 and a smaller DeWalt. Both are nice saws with the Dewalt having a exceptionally nice geared fence. The 4100 is nice to, but the build quality pales in comparison to any of the SawStop models.

The odd thing about Bosch is that they make a lot of great tools (along with a gazillion other items) and coordinating accessories (not a system like Festool has though). Lots of them don't make it to the US. With their bankroll they could cut into Festools market in short order, but they will be up against price point issues. They can't get Festool prices while slumming it at Lowe's and Home Depot with cheap tools. Festool is like Apple...they won't sell cheap stuff because there is no margin on it and once you target the bottom there is no way out. Best approach might be a new tool line that would be premium.

I don't know where to start with this post.

I keep hearing about this festool system.  Is that all the systainers I had??  It's OK but Bosch makes a better L-boxx IMO.

How do you compare a saw stop cabinet saw to a $400 job site saw in the 4100??  Not a fair comparison. 

Festool is like Apple??  That explains a lot.  I'm an apple fan for their system as well...  Too bad it's a brutal system (but I still use it)

Slumming it at the Depot....  I don't even know what to say on that one.  if we all want to whip out tools and compare, I am sure that some of us have things that make the green look like you are slumming it, but I digress.

Best tool for the job at hand.  No matter the brand or where you can purchase it from. 
Brad T.

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Offline Frank Pellow

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2015, 10:16 PM »

...

How do you compare a saw stop cabinet saw to a $400 job site saw in the 4100??  Not a fair comparison. 
...
 

I, for one, am not even attempting to make that comparison.  I expect that the only place that SawStop and Bosch products will compete directly is with their job-site saws.

The comparison that I am making and that most people are making is on the technology to stop the saw.  From the little bit that I know about the Bosch technology at this point, my expectation (and hope) is that the Bosch technology is better.  I also hope that they licence that technology  to manufacturers of higher end table saws.
Cheers,   
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Offline GregBradley

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2015, 10:36 PM »
A good outcome of this would be to destroy the criminals behind Sawstop. Better would be to find them guilty of a criminal conspiracy and get them in jail where he/they belong.

Offline Frank Pellow

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2015, 10:42 PM »
A good outcome of this would be to destroy the criminals behind Sawstop. Better would be to find them guilty of a criminal conspiracy and get them in jail where he/they belong.

Greg, I guess you are one of the folks I mentioned who are not big fans of SawStop.   [scratch chin] 
Cheers,   
               Frank (Festool connoisseur)

Offline SittingElf

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2015, 03:34 AM »
To chime in on this announcement....and with a disclaimer that I am an avid SawStop fan....I think this is a great advance.  The TS companies have tried a number of so-called safety features to compete against SawStop, without having to pay royalties to SS.  Most have been marginal at best, or outright failures.

Now Bosch has come out with yet another system that is not in violation of SS patents. Good!

That being said however, from what I can read so far, Bosch is relying on their airbag technology for dropping the blade. I think I can rightly assume that the speed of the blade drop via Bosch's technique simply cannot be as microsecond fast as the explosive squib mechanism on the SS.  Saving the blade or not, I think most SS owners are not looking at cost savings vs. hospital bills.

I will be more convinced when the two systems are compared side by side with the hot dog tests at an average cut speed. If Bosch can match the speed of activation, fit and finish, accuracy, and nothing more than a bandaid needed for injury in the event of a finger contact with the blade, then, and only then will it be a true competitor of SS.

Cheers,

Frank

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Offline SittingElf

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #35 on: March 18, 2015, 03:38 AM »
A good outcome of this would be to destroy the criminals behind Sawstop. Better would be to find them guilty of a criminal conspiracy and get them in jail where he/they belong.

That's rather inflammatory, and could be considered defamation. The statement has no basis in fact and seems more like trolling.

F
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Offline jonny round boy

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #36 on: March 18, 2015, 05:46 AM »
That being said however, from what I can read so far, Bosch is relying on their airbag technology for dropping the blade. I think I can rightly assume that the speed of the blade drop via Bosch's technique simply cannot be as microsecond fast as the explosive squib mechanism on the SS.

Frank,

That's precisely how airbags work, it's an explosive charge. The rapidly expanding gas created by the explosion is what fills the bag.
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Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2015, 05:54 AM »
It appears that once again a Sawstop thread is bringing out strong opinions from posters. 

Please read what you write before you hit the post button.  If you are unsure how you comments will be taken or are posting just to create a buzz - don't post.

Thank you in advance.

Peter Halle - Moderator

Offline bruegf

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #38 on: March 18, 2015, 07:13 AM »
A good outcome of this would be to destroy the criminals behind Sawstop. Better would be to find them guilty of a criminal conspiracy and get them in jail where he/they belong.

Whether you like SS or not, the fact of the matter is all the major mfg's dismissed the technology for various reasons, which is why SS was started.  I'm convinced that you wouldn't be seeing the Bosch technology if it wasn't for SS bringing it to market first.  Another win for competition and free market, when not hindered by narrow minds.

Fred
Fred

Offline JimH2

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #39 on: March 18, 2015, 10:18 AM »
Competition is always good, so long as it does kill SawStop.
...
Do you mean does or does not?  I know there are a lot of folks out there who do not like the way that SawStop has gone about their business but you don't sound like you are one of them.

Fixed it.

Offline JimH2

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #40 on: March 18, 2015, 10:47 AM »
Slumming it at Home Depot? I guess I am a slum customer as I like to shop at Home Depot. Lots of nice peple work there. I'd like to see Festool sold at Home Depot. Both Home Depot and Festool are great brands. I own just about every tool sold by Festool in NA. I also own DeWalt and Bosch tools mostly bought at Home Depot at great prices. Good tools, good people, good store.

Take it easy. I am referring to the race to the bottom on price at the big box stores. You do know how the big box stores work right? They lock in lower and lower prices by pressuring the manufacturers to squeeze a little here or little there to lower the price. The manufacturers know they have to tow the line or the store might drop them and being dropped out is a big deal. At those stores it is all about the price and nothing else and the only way to go lower is China, Vietnam, etc or lower build quality or use lesser materials.

Festool does not make cheap stuff period and they won't. They also raise prices each year which would never fly at a big box store. Quality never comes cheap. Most of the big box store customers are homeowners and they don't buy or expect to be able to buy expensive tools there. Most would not believe that a drill could cost $500 because how could it when they can buy 4 tools for $200 or $300 or a full-size drill press for $300.

When you add cheap anything to your offerings you have to make compromises (quality, customer service, and margin) and you don't do that to premium brands because once you start you can't turn back the clock. Some would say "They could make it up with volume." by being at the big box store, but that is rarely, if ever, the case.

The comparison with Apple is a good one. They have a premium only phone and control 90%+ of the profits in that industry. While they want everyone to buy their phones they are not willing to lower the quality and price to get that last 10% or so. They maintain hefty margins on their other items as well by not trolling the bottom and they take care of their customers, much like Festool does.


Offline alex946

  • Posts: 65
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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #41 on: March 18, 2015, 11:15 AM »
Должен признаться, мне абсолютно безразлична эта пила. Как, впрочем, и Sawstop.
Почему это так?
- считаю циркулярную пилу устаревшим и бессмысленным инструментом, и не имею её в мастерской уже более трёх лет.
- возможно, когда-нибудь я куплю Precisio 50 для работ на объекте, но и в этом случае, нет никакой необходимости иметь эту защиту от перепиливания пальца. Вполне достаточно соблюдать технику безопасности и не являться идиотом.

И, да, у меня все пальцы в наличии.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Must admit, I absolutely indifferent to this saw. As, however, and sawstop.
Why is this so?
- I think a circular saw obsolete and useless tool, and I do not have it in the shop for more than three years.
- Maybe someday I'll buy Festool PRECISIO 50 to work on the project, but in this case, there is no need to have this protection from sawing fingers. It is enough to observe safety precautions and do not be an idiot.

And, yes, I have all the fingers.

/dev/brain, /dev/hands, /dev/tools

Offline GregBradley

  • Posts: 192
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #42 on: March 18, 2015, 11:34 AM »
A good outcome of this would be to destroy the criminals behind Sawstop. Better would be to find them guilty of a criminal conspiracy and get them in jail where he/they belong.

Greg, I guess you are one of the folks I mentioned who are not big fans of SawStop.   [scratch chin]
I have no complaints about the product. My brother even loves his.

I have a big complaint about the behavior of the company. Instead of bringing out a good product and letting the buyers choose the better product, they are trying to force their technology by legal maneuvering. One state has a bizarre way of determining liability in civil suits. Sawstop waited until there was a table saw related injury in that state and then funded the lawsuit. The person injured had removed the safety feature on that saw and was using it in a completely irresponsible manner. In that state, the design only had to contribute to the injury instead of being actually responsible.

We can assign some blame to that state legislature. California, my state, is not too far behind that state in stupid laws. Look up how one car manufacturer lost a suit for selling a car that was "too fast" for the driver.  The next step is a lawsuit against a car manufacturer for their 20-year old car allowing a drunk driver to hit someone. We are going to hear some attorney arguing that the car should have had a safety feature that prevented that.

The intent of antitrust laws is to encourage competition for a fair market.

I'm all for a company like Festool making a high quality product, supporting it well, encouraging training of the users, providing this forum for exchange of support, and then giving me the OPTION of paying the price all of that costs while allowing them to make a reasonable profit.

Offline Sparktrician

  • Posts: 3837
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #43 on: March 18, 2015, 11:40 AM »
I have a big complaint about the behavior of the company. Instead of bringing out a good product and letting the buyers choose the better product, they are trying to force their technology by legal maneuvering. One state has a bizarre way of determining liability in civil suits. Sawstop waited until there was a table saw related injury in that state and then funded the lawsuit. The person injured had removed the safety feature on that saw and was using it in a completely irresponsible manner. In that state, the design only had to contribute to the injury instead of being actually responsible.


Hear, hear!!! 

- Willy -

 "Remember, a chip on the shoulder is a sure sign of wood higher up." - Brigham Young

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #44 on: March 18, 2015, 11:41 AM »

That being said however, from what I can read so far, Bosch is relying on their airbag technology for dropping the blade. I think I can rightly assume that the speed of the blade drop via Bosch's technique simply cannot be as microsecond fast as the explosive squib mechanism on the SS.  Saving the blade or not, I think most SS owners are not looking at cost savings vs. hospital bills.

I've seen people make similar comments on a couple of forums, and I believe the answer is actually the opposite of what they are thinking.

Both technologies are braking the blade with an active mechanism. However, SS is passively lowering the blade, versus Bosch, which is actively lowering the blade. Getting the blade below the table is more important than braking the blade, and the active system is going to do that better.

The SS brakes the blade, and the resulting momentum causes the blade to passively drop below the table. As I understand the limited description, the Bosch system is actively firing a mechanism to lower the blade and a separate active system to brake the blade.

In other words, the SS blade won't drop below the table until after it has stopped. Dropping below the table is actually just a clever means to get rid of all the excess energy of bringing the blade to a rapid stop.

The Bosch system gets the blade below the table, where it is safe, and then worries about slowing it down. This is why it can do so without destroying the blade.

Offline elfick

  • Posts: 530
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #45 on: March 18, 2015, 11:41 AM »
A good outcome of this would be to destroy the criminals behind Sawstop. Better would be to find them guilty of a criminal conspiracy and get them in jail where he/they belong.

Greg, I guess you are one of the folks I mentioned who are not big fans of SawStop.   [scratch chin]
I have no complaints about the product. My brother even loves his.

I have a big complaint about the behavior of the company. Instead of bringing out a good product and letting the buyers choose the better product, they are trying to force their technology by legal maneuvering. One state has a bizarre way of determining liability in civil suits. Sawstop waited until there was a table saw related injury in that state and then funded the lawsuit. The person injured had removed the safety feature on that saw and was using it in a completely irresponsible manner. In that state, the design only had to contribute to the injury instead of being actually responsible.
It will be interesting to see what happens when someone is injured on a sawstop after having disabled the safety feature. :)

Offline wrightwoodwork

  • Posts: 410
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #46 on: March 18, 2015, 01:03 PM »
Properly will not be insured and will not be able to make a claim is my guess

Offline Frank Pellow

  • Posts: 2748
  • Toronto, Ontario and Lake Pivabiska, Ontario
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #47 on: March 18, 2015, 01:49 PM »
There is now information at the Bosch web site.  See: http://www.boschtools.com/AboutBoschTools/PressRoom/Pages/031815_reaxxsaw.aspx

I'm sorry to see that they seem to have priced their saw about the same as the SawStop job-site saw.
Cheers,   
               Frank (Festool connoisseur)

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1929
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #48 on: March 18, 2015, 01:51 PM »
Nice to see everyone is remaining civil . . . I buy tools because they are good quality period. That's one of the reasons I have bought Festool tools. Do I agree with their design on all products? No. Do I agree with all of the ways they operate? No.

Sawstop sells high quality professional table saws. I don't have a need for that right now. Their job site saw appears to also be a great saw; high quality; with the added feature of the trademark Sawstop safety mechanism. If Bosch's saw is the same high quality or of average quality with a better price and offers a similar level of safety I'm sure it will be tremendously successful and Sawstop's job site saw will lose favor and may even disappear at some point.

Do I agree with the efforts Sawstop has made to monopolize the table saw safety market? No. However, I still would put their professional table saws on top of the list, just because they are high quality and, right now, they are the only game in town with regard to the level of safety on that particular type of saw. I don't understand why that's a problem for some on this site. If it was so easy to develop this and put it out there on a professional level saw at about the same price range as other professional cabinets saws, all the manufacturers would be doing it and we wouldn 't have to have this discussion once a month. It's not. Regardless of what I think of Sawstop's efforts to create a monopoly, give them some credit for a huge advancement in table saw safety. It is a very innovative and important move in the right direction.
Randy

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 1378
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #49 on: March 18, 2015, 02:11 PM »
Just like they do with airbag technology, the smartest thing Bosch could do would be to license their safe saw technology for a reasonable sum to anyone that wants it.  They would easily pay for the development cost in no time.

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 1378
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #50 on: March 18, 2015, 02:14 PM »
How does 4.0 HP @15amps and 110 volts compare to 3.0 HP and 220 volts?

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 866
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #51 on: March 18, 2015, 02:19 PM »
Just like they do with airbag technology, the smartest thing Bosch could do would be to license their safe saw technology for a reasonable sum to anyone that wants it.  They would easily pay for the development cost in no time.

My guess is that you will never see this on cheap saws and apparently the bottom is about $1200 or so. This makes it a feature shootout and unless the Bosch has something more to offer SawStop will still reign supreme. The worksite saw has some really nice features (one crank blade height adjustment in 1 degree adjustments (with a fine tune knob), one hand angle adjustment, great dust collection, and built-in tool storage.

The ability to save blades after mishaps is nice, but I don't consider it much of a selling point until it is proven to be just as safe as the SawStop. Additionally if it were to trip and save a finger I don't think I'd be concerned about blade cost. If you plan on taking advantage of the blade saving feature multiple times maybe you should consider that someone else use the tablesaw.

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 866
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #52 on: March 18, 2015, 02:21 PM »
Just like they do with airbag technology, the smartest thing Bosch could do would be to license their safe saw technology for a reasonable sum to anyone that wants it.  They would easily pay for the development cost in no time.

The price differences may not be that much considering the Model 4100 w/stand lists for $1170 and sells for $599. The Reaxx lists for $1499 which would roughly equate to $750 which means the safety feature adds $150 or so. This makes the 4100 a non-buy. No one in their right mind would by a saw without it to save a $150. My ER co-pay is $200.

I don't see any advantage to licenses since they already have the cheapest game in town.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2015, 02:27 PM by JimH2 »

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 1378
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #53 on: March 18, 2015, 02:36 PM »
The advantage of a per saw sold license fee is easy money.  Most of the R&D cost has been amortized over many years of air bag sales.  Doubt the additional cost to adapt it to a table saw was much more by Bosch standards.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2015, 02:39 PM by RLJ-Atl »

Offline thedude306

  • Posts: 192
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #54 on: March 18, 2015, 02:38 PM »
Where did you find the $1499 price.  I must have missed that some where.  Why do manufactures retail price something that sells for 599 at $1170??  That doesn't make sense to me.

But I think you are right on the money with the $150 premium.  The PTI group that was in the law suit even stated it should only cost $55?  Even SS claimed $100.

http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/41564/sawstop-inventor-steve-gass-defends-the-latest-tablesaw-verdicts/page/all

The only reason for the licensing would be able to get into the cabinet saw market.
Brad T.

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 1378
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #55 on: March 18, 2015, 02:41 PM »
Click on the above link to Bosch's announcement and scroll down.  The price is listed right there.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2015, 02:43 PM by RLJ-Atl »

Offline Frank Pellow

  • Posts: 2748
  • Toronto, Ontario and Lake Pivabiska, Ontario
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #56 on: March 18, 2015, 02:45 PM »
Just like they do with airbag technology, the smartest thing Bosch could do would be to license their safe saw technology for a reasonable sum to anyone that wants it.  They would easily pay for the development cost in no time.

The price differences may not be that much considering the Model 4100 w/stand lists for $1170 and sells for $599. The Reaxx lists for $1499 which would roughly equate to $750 which means the safety feature adds $150 or so. This makes the 4100 a non-buy. No one in their right mind would by a saw without it to save a $150. My ER co-pay is $200.

I don't see any advantage to licenses since they already have the cheapest game in town.

That's encouraging.  [big grin]  I didn't realize that the list price and a "street" price of Bosch tools had that large a gap.
Cheers,   
               Frank (Festool connoisseur)

Offline Frank Pellow

  • Posts: 2748
  • Toronto, Ontario and Lake Pivabiska, Ontario
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #57 on: March 18, 2015, 02:47 PM »
Where did you find the $1499 price. 

...


Look at the link that I provided in reply #48 in this thread.  It points to an "official" statement by Bosch.
Cheers,   
               Frank (Festool connoisseur)

Offline thedude306

  • Posts: 192
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #58 on: March 18, 2015, 02:56 PM »
thanks gentleman, totally missed that.

It is amazing that the street price and MSRP is such a spread.

I wonder if Europe will see this saw??

I can only assume that the tech is sound.  VERY sound.  It's a law suit waiting to happen and Bosch has big pockets (they're worth suing)
Brad T.

Offline elfick

  • Posts: 530
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #59 on: March 18, 2015, 03:08 PM »
Did I imagine in or was there a rumor about Sawstop changing the blade guard on their jobsite saw to improve dust collection? Both the Sawstop and Bosch saws have pretty sad looking blade guards.

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 866
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #60 on: March 18, 2015, 03:12 PM »
The advantage of a per saw sold license fee is easy money.  Most of the R&D cost has been amortized over many years of air bag sales.  Doubt the additional cost to adapt it to a table saw was much more by Bosch standards.

I could see licensing it for cabinet saws, but no need to bring in competition below Bosch's price point.

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Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1929
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #61 on: March 18, 2015, 04:01 PM »
Did I imagine in or was there a rumor about Sawstop changing the blade guard on their jobsite saw to improve dust collection? Both the Sawstop and Bosch saws have pretty sad looking blade guards.

Sawstop says that the release of a guard with a dust port is close. Also, on a YouTube video put out by Sawstop within the past 2 weeks made with a contractor who uses the saw, the guard with the dust port was on his saw. The Festool 50mm hose fits on the port under the blade. With a Y connector on the Festool vacuum and the Festool overarm structure, it's possible you could do both. I would guess that would eliminate almost all dust. The collection without the blade guard is great already.
Randy

Offline thedude306

  • Posts: 192
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #62 on: March 18, 2015, 04:05 PM »
Did I imagine in or was there a rumor about Sawstop changing the blade guard on their jobsite saw to improve dust collection? Both the Sawstop and Bosch saws have pretty sad looking blade guards.

Sawstop says that the release of a guard with a dust port is close. Also, on a YouTube video put out by Sawstop within the past 2 weeks made with a contractor who uses the saw, the guard with the dust port was on his saw. The Festool 50mm hose fits on the port under the blade. With a Y connector on the Festool vacuum and the Festool overarm structure, it's possible you could do both. I would guess that would eliminate almost all dust. The collection without the blade guard is great already.

I think the current blade guards are about safety??  I know mine are clunky on the bosch.  There is a Bosch version in the UK that has a dust port built in and rides/attaches to the riving knife.

Brad T.

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1929
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #63 on: March 18, 2015, 04:20 PM »
Did I imagine in or was there a rumor about Sawstop changing the blade guard on their jobsite saw to improve dust collection? Both the Sawstop and Bosch saws have pretty sad looking blade guards.

Sawstop says that the release of a guard with a dust port is close. Also, on a YouTube video put out by Sawstop within the past 2 weeks made with a contractor who uses the saw, the guard with the dust port was on his saw. The Festool 50mm hose fits on the port under the blade. With a Y connector on the Festool vacuum and the Festool overarm structure, it's possible you could do both. I would guess that would eliminate almost all dust. The collection without the blade guard is great already.

I think the current blade guards are about safety??  I know mine are clunky on the bosch.  There is a Bosch version in the UK that has a dust port built in and rides/attaches to the riving knife.

The Sawstop blade guard on the job site saw is actually not very obtrusive. It has an integrated riving knife and the saw has a separate riving knife for when you take the blade guard off. Conceivably you could just use the separate riving knife and, if you used devices like the Grripper, you would be protected, especially considering the blade brake on the saw. However, that wouldn't be the safest way to use it. I would assume the blade guard with dust collection is the same as the original blade guard on the saw.
Randy

Offline Grasshopper

  • Posts: 595
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #64 on: March 18, 2015, 06:15 PM »
Here is a video!!!

Aspiring DIY'er (hence the name "grasshopper" as I am looking to learn from all the masters on the FOG)- TS 55, OF 1400, MFT/3, VS600 Dovetail Jig, MFS700+ MFS2000 extension profiles, Kapex, Kapex UG set, T12 Li set(x2), CT22, Domino, Carvex, RO90, RO150, MFK700, CMS-VL, Qwas super pack & Cool Wife.

Offline promark747

  • Posts: 473
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #65 on: March 18, 2015, 06:55 PM »
Cool video...would have been funny if they showed the guy being distracted by a pretty woman walking by.  ;D

Offline wow

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #66 on: March 18, 2015, 07:58 PM »
If I end up doing my trailer build, that saw is gonna have to go on the list...
Trying to be one of the most helpful members on the FOG.

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 465
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #67 on: March 18, 2015, 09:45 PM »
It will be interesting to see if Bosch puts some pressure on dealers to keep the price up initially. A selling price of under $1000 would be a serious problem for SawStop. However, we do not know how low SawStop could go and still make a profit.

Offline leer

  • Posts: 262
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #68 on: March 18, 2015, 10:05 PM »
How does 4.0 HP @15amps and 110 volts compare to 3.0 HP and 220 volts?

Not quite sure what you are asking, but you cannot get 4HP from "something" drawing 15 amps at 110 (120) volts.  The power consumed by a motor drawing 15A @ 120VAC is 1800 watts.  One horsepower equals 746 watts, so that motor, at best, could produce about 2.4 HP.
Lee

Offline Ajax

  • Posts: 193
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #69 on: March 18, 2015, 10:56 PM »
Wow...great video.

Bosch just trumped Saw Stop in the portable jobsite table saw market.

Competition is GOOD.
Kapex KS120, MFT/3, TS55 REQ, LS130, RTS400, RO90 DX FEQ, D90 Assortment, RO150 REQ, ETS 150/3, PRO5, D150 Assortment, DF 500, Domino 4/5/8/10 Assortment, DF700 XL, Domino 12/14 Assortment,  CT Midi, MFT/3, Kapex MFT, 2 x SysRoll

Online Kevin D.

  • Posts: 964
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #70 on: March 19, 2015, 12:31 AM »
I just don't ever understand the GREAT merits of the SS technology.  It only mitigates one scenario of bad TS usage and leaves you complacent if you rely on it for what are many other ones.  It's also a bad sense of security to get formed when you move around using different TS's on different occasions forgetting ultimately the fundamentals in doing so for the one that the the sawstop protects you from.

For anybody who uses TS's regularly and/or who know best practices in using, this technology is useless largely and can only add to other non sawstop type saw usages that can now more readily result in injury if a SS type saw user becomes accustomed to but forgets about when using non-sawstop styled equipment.

Good for newbies (somewhat with still some exception in general) or those who are generally derelict in TS usage probably or who don't have any guards and bring their fingers mm's from their blades for which I myself never do.  For everybody else....beware!
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Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1929
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #71 on: March 19, 2015, 07:45 AM »
I just don't ever understand the GREAT merits of the SS technology.  It only mitigates one scenario of bad TS usage and leaves you complacent if you rely on it for what are many other ones.  It's also a bad sense of security to get formed when you move around using different TS's on different occasions forgetting ultimately the fundamentals in doing so for the one that the the sawstop protects you from.

For anybody who uses TS's regularly and/or who know best practices in using, this technology is useless largely and can only add to other non sawstop type saw usages that can now more readily result in injury if a SS type saw user becomes accustomed to but forgets about when using non-sawstop styled equipment.

Good for newbies (somewhat with still some exception in general) or those who are generally derelict in TS usage probably or who don't have any guards and bring their fingers mm's from their blades for which I myself never do.  For everybody else....beware!

Great if you don't need it or want it. I guess you've never been using a power tool and, for a fraction of second, lost concentration or been distracted before you realize what you're doing. For 30+ years I've been using power tools, including table saws. I find that something like the blade brake technology is an insurance policy against just that one fraction of a second when I do something that I know isn't right and shouldn't do, but, for some reason, it just happened. This rare and, luckily I have never been seriously cut on a table saw. I know all the right things to do. I own Grrippers for ripping wood on a table saw to keep my hands as far away as possible. Still, every once in awhile, a random event happens where the wood blade gets buried in the wood, a small piece kicks back while I'm sawing, or, because I'm sawing a small piece, my hands get a little closer to the blade than I would like. A Sawstop user hopes the bade brake never trips (foolish to think otherwise) but, why take a chance, everything else being equal. If the larger Sawastop saws were junk and much more expensive than others at the same level, I'd say it's of no value. However, that's not true. So, why not have the extra protection. I have aged in 30 years and find that the extra level of protection is a good one and worth a price, just like health insurance. I don't imagine I would convince you so, I'm not trying. Just answering your question at least for me.
Randy

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 1378
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #72 on: March 19, 2015, 08:41 AM »
How does 4.0 HP @15amps and 110 volts compare to 3.0 HP and 220 volts?

Not quite sure what you are asking, but you cannot get 4HP from "something" drawing 15 amps at 110 (120) volts.  The power consumed by a motor drawing 15A @ 120VAC is 1800 watts.  One horsepower equals 746 watts, so that motor, at best, could produce about 2.4 HP.

I was comparing the Bosch specs to a typical 3hp 220v cabinet saw.  In the link above, Bosch lists the new saw at 4hp @ 15amps.

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 1378
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #73 on: March 19, 2015, 08:46 AM »
I was a little surprised when I first saw the new Saw Stop jobsite saw in person.  They used plastic everywhere.  I guess it saves weight and keeps costs down.

I'll be interested to see how the Bosch compares in that regard.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6612
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #74 on: March 19, 2015, 09:32 AM »
I just don't ever understand the GREAT merits of the SS technology...

After reading this article,

http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/41564/sawstop-inventor-steve-gass-defends-the-latest-tablesaw-verdicts/page/all

the item that impacted me the most was that according to the CPSC (Consumer Product Safety Commission), the table saw retail market is $200-400 million per year, while the cost of the injuries from table saws, is estimated by the CPSC to be $2.36 billion per year. This is a seriously upside-down situation.

Accidents are not intentional events and no one can control them. I think the above CPSC study with its lopsided numbers just proves that.


Offline Frank Pellow

  • Posts: 2748
  • Toronto, Ontario and Lake Pivabiska, Ontario
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #75 on: March 19, 2015, 09:32 AM »
I was a little surprised when I first saw the new Saw Stop jobsite saw in person.  They used plastic everywhere.  I guess it saves weight and keeps costs down.

I'll be interested to see how the Bosch compares in that regard.

I think that all you will need to do is to look at the current Bosch 4100 job-site saw and you will have your answer.
Cheers,   
               Frank (Festool connoisseur)

Offline Grasshopper

  • Posts: 595
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #76 on: March 19, 2015, 10:46 AM »
Bosch has released their pricing:

US: $1,499
CAN: $1,699

http://www.boschtools.com/AboutBoschTools/PressRoom/Pages/031815_reaxxsaw.aspx

It will be interesting to see if Bosch puts some pressure on dealers to keep the price up initially. A selling price of under $1000 would be a serious problem for SawStop. However, we do not know how low SawStop could go and still make a profit.
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Offline GregBradley

  • Posts: 192
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #77 on: March 19, 2015, 10:58 AM »
Bosch has released their pricing:

US: $1,499
CAN: $1,699

http://www.boschtools.com/AboutBoschTools/PressRoom/Pages/031815_reaxxsaw.aspx

It will be interesting to see if Bosch puts some pressure on dealers to keep the price up initially. A selling price of under $1000 would be a serious problem for SawStop. However, we do not know how low SawStop could go and still make a profit.
Comparing the list pricing of SS to Bosch is almost no comparison at all.

SS always sells at list. Bosch almost never does and the list price is almost silly. The list price on most Bosch items is around double the street price. The Bosch list price for the 4100 is $1170 and Amazon has them for $599. The Bosch 12" Glide list is $1528 and even when they were in high demand the highest price I saw was about $820. I considered buying one at a Bosch event at my local tools store at $489. Dewalt, Makita, Milwaukee are similar in that they are generally sold FAR below "list".

At list price in the US, the Bosch Glide Saw is MORE than the Festool Kapex that many people call expensive.

Offline atogrf1

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #78 on: March 19, 2015, 11:06 AM »
Here is the link to the video of the new Bosch saw.
If I remember right, Gass was the one that kept trying to get the feds to make "SawStop Technology" mandatory for ALL tablesaws.  That would have put the price WAAAAAY up there, and, of course, he would have made MILLIONS of dollars.
The Bosch saw won't eat up my $100+ Forrest blade, either.
I would rather keep my money away from SawStop, since they were the ones that was more than happy sticking it to all of us woodworkers in pursuit of the almighty dollar.
That is my personal opinon on it.


Offline Ajax

  • Posts: 193
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #79 on: March 19, 2015, 11:19 AM »
I'll probably still buy a SS in the next year or so.  The fit and finish are excellent on the SS PCS.  Hopefully, Bosch can drive down the price of the SS PCS with this competition in the contractor saw market.

And for all you SS haters, don't buy one.  It's as simple as that.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2015, 11:23 AM by Ajax »
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Offline atogrf1

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #80 on: March 19, 2015, 11:23 AM »
I love the SawStop product itself.  If it wasn't for the way they went about things, I would have one personally and my company would have a few of them.

I just have a personal aversion to patronizing businesses that I can't respect ethically is all.

Offline Birdhunter

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #81 on: March 19, 2015, 01:39 PM »
Regarding the post about the Sawstop safety feature adding complacency, my reaction is exactly the opposite. I've had the Sawstop Industrial (largest) for a couple of years. Knowing the safety feature is there is both comforting and, at the same time, adds a sense of being extra careful so as to not set it off.

I really appreciate the saw's great design and build quality. I think the saw's almost total lack of vibration and dead nuts accuracy are big safety features.
Birdhunter

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 866
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #82 on: March 19, 2015, 03:12 PM »
I just don't ever understand the GREAT merits of the SS technology.  It only mitigates one scenario of bad TS usage and leaves you complacent if you rely on it for what are many other ones.  It's also a bad sense of security to get formed when you move around using different TS's on different occasions forgetting ultimately the fundamentals in doing so for the one that the the sawstop protects you from.

For anybody who uses TS's regularly and/or who know best practices in using, this technology is useless largely and can only add to other non sawstop type saw usages that can now more readily result in injury if a SS type saw user becomes accustomed to but forgets about when using non-sawstop styled equipment.

Good for newbies (somewhat with still some exception in general) or those who are generally derelict in TS usage probably or who don't have any guards and bring their fingers mm's from their blades for which I myself never do.  For everybody else....beware!

Nothing to say here other than you are severely out of touch with reality. We all now know that you are perfect and have never had an accident, so yes the SawStop is not for you, but why stop there? For starters take the airbags out of your car and remove the smoke alarms from your home. As you know airbags cause people to drive more recklessly and smoke alarms allow people to get a good nights sleep.

I am detail oriented and use sound safety practices with all of my tools. The fact that I have a SawStop and it has an extra safety feature does not change the way I go about using the saw. It's there to cover me the one day there is a mishap and no matter how safe you think you are they do happen and they might not be related to your use of the saw. I'll start with a simple one: a seizure, heart attack, pass out. You can't predict these no matter how safe you are.

Finally let's consider any company that uses table saws. One accident and OSHA is all over you, Workers Comp costs increase, an employee (or yourself) can't work, and you may get sued. All those are reasons to get a SawStop or the Bosch.


Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 866
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #83 on: March 19, 2015, 03:14 PM »
I love the SawStop product itself.  If it wasn't for the way they went about things, I would have one personally and my company would have a few of them.

I just have a personal aversion to patronizing businesses that I can't respect ethically is all.

If it is ethics you are concerned with then turn in any electronic item in your house. They are all build with what is tantamount to slave labor, which is much worse than trying to push your safety device on to other manufacturers.

Offline atogrf1

  • Posts: 147
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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #84 on: March 19, 2015, 03:18 PM »
That is why, other than Festool, I use as many Made in the USA hand tools as possible.
(I'm a liar, I use a lot of Made in Canada, too).

Offline Sean Ackerman

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #85 on: March 19, 2015, 04:56 PM »
Some info presented today were sale price and a SOMETIME in 2015 release date.  We've got it up on the site with some comprehensive video, photos and details.

Bosch REAXX Table Saw
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Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6612
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #86 on: March 19, 2015, 05:08 PM »
That is why, other than Festool, I use as many Made in the USA hand tools as possible.
(I'm a liar, I use a lot of Made in Canada, too).


I agree, if it says made in China I put it back on the shelf and look for something else.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6612
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #87 on: March 19, 2015, 05:12 PM »
Some info presented today were sale price and a SOMETIME in 2015 release date.  We've got it up on the site with some comprehensive video, photos and details.

Bosch REAXX Table Saw

Whoops...Bosch suggested retail price is $1499. I guess Saw Stop just got bailed out of their potential conundrum.

Offline elfick

  • Posts: 530
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #88 on: March 19, 2015, 05:15 PM »
Wouldn't a 15 amp 4 HP saw require 220v?

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #89 on: March 19, 2015, 05:26 PM »
The irony of this thread is some folks get all bound up about sawstop trying to legislatively mandate their safety devices in table saws, and Bosch is now coming out with a new approach of doing the same thing based on their airbag technology which is legislatively mandated here in the US for about 20 years. Should I be angry at Bosch also? This can get confusing fast LOL. FTR I oppose legislating table saw blade brakes as well as airbags in vehicles, let the market decide these things, not bureaucrats.
+1

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6612
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #90 on: March 19, 2015, 05:29 PM »
Some info presented today were sale price and a SOMETIME in 2015 release date.  We've got it up on the site with some comprehensive video, photos and details.

Bosch REAXX Table Saw

So let me try to understand this:
Bosch 4100 saw/stand = $600
Bosch 4100 saw/stand + REAXX option = $1500
Therefore REAXX option = $900
Hmmmmmm maybe there are some other options out there for me.

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Offline elfick

  • Posts: 530
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #91 on: March 19, 2015, 05:33 PM »
Some info presented today were sale price and a SOMETIME in 2015 release date.  We've got it up on the site with some comprehensive video, photos and details.

Bosch REAXX Table Saw

So let me try to understand this:
Bosch 4100 saw/stand = $600
Bosch 4100 saw/stand + REAXX option = $1500
Therefore REAXX option = $900
Hmmmmmm maybe there are some other options out there for me.
You're missing the part of the equation where list_price != street_price
The list price of the Bosch 4100-09 10-Inch Worksite Table Saw with Gravity-Rise Stand is $1170 according to Amazon.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6612
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #92 on: March 19, 2015, 05:36 PM »
The irony of this thread is some folks get all bound up about sawstop trying to legislatively mandate their safety devices in table saws, and Bosch is now coming out with a new approach of doing the same thing based on their airbag technology which is legislatively mandated here in the US for about 20 years. Should I be angry at Bosch also? This can get confusing fast LOL. FTR I oppose legislating table saw blade brakes as well as airbags in vehicles, let the market decide these things, not bureaucrats.

Paul, you have a great point. This whole Saw Stop/Bosch thread has turned pretty bizarre. Especially with the Bosch pricing now emulating the pricing of Saw Stop's entry for a job-site saw.

Offline Cheese

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #93 on: March 19, 2015, 05:40 PM »
Some info presented today were sale price and a SOMETIME in 2015 release date.  We've got it up on the site with some comprehensive video, photos and details.

Bosch REAXX Table Saw

So let me try to understand this:
Bosch 4100 saw/stand = $600
Bosch 4100 saw/stand + REAXX option = $1500
Therefore REAXX option = $900
Hmmmmmm maybe there are some other options out there for me.
You're missing the part of the equation where list_price != street_price
The list price of the Bosch 4100-09 10-Inch Worksite Table Saw with Gravity-Rise Stand is $1170 according to Amazon.


If you go to the Tool Nut website, they have priced the saw at $1499 retail. Unless Bosch reconsiders their pricing schedule, Tool Nut will be asking $1499 foa a REAXX saw.

Offline elfick

  • Posts: 530
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #94 on: March 19, 2015, 05:42 PM »
Some info presented today were sale price and a SOMETIME in 2015 release date.  We've got it up on the site with some comprehensive video, photos and details.

Bosch REAXX Table Saw

So let me try to understand this:
Bosch 4100 saw/stand = $600
Bosch 4100 saw/stand + REAXX option = $1500
Therefore REAXX option = $900
Hmmmmmm maybe there are some other options out there for me.
You're missing the part of the equation where list_price != street_price
The list price of the Bosch 4100-09 10-Inch Worksite Table Saw with Gravity-Rise Stand is $1170 according to Amazon.


If you go to the Tool Nut website, they have priced the saw at $1499 retail. Unless Bosch reconsiders their pricing schedule, Tool Nut will be asking $1499 foa a REAXX saw.
That's absolutely correct. My point was your math should thusly:

Bosch 4100 saw/stand = $1170
Bosch 4100 saw/stand + REAXX option = $1500
Therefore REAXX option = $330

Comparing list prices for both.  [smile]

edit to note that I see your point that the 4100 is available right now for $600, but if you wanted to stick to that, the cost of the reaxx is actually infinite since it isn't available right now... since we won't know the street price until it's released, your only other option is to compare the price we do know, the list price.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2015, 05:44 PM by elfick »

Offline Cheese

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #95 on: March 19, 2015, 05:47 PM »
Some info presented today were sale price and a SOMETIME in 2015 release date.  We've got it up on the site with some comprehensive video, photos and details.

Bosch REAXX Table Saw

So let me try to understand this:
Bosch 4100 saw/stand = $600
Bosch 4100 saw/stand + REAXX option = $1500
Therefore REAXX option = $900
Hmmmmmm maybe there are some other options out there for me.
You're missing the part of the equation where list_price != street_price
The list price of the Bosch 4100-09 10-Inch Worksite Table Saw with Gravity-Rise Stand is $1170 according to Amazon.


If you go to the Tool Nut website, they have priced the saw at $1499 retail. Unless Bosch reconsiders their pricing schedule, Tool Nut will be asking $1499 foa a REAXX saw.
That's absolutely correct. My point was your math should thusly:

Bosch 4100 saw/stand = $1170
Bosch 4100 saw/stand + REAXX option = $1500
Therefore REAXX option = $330

Comparing list prices for both.  [smile]

If you're comparing list prices of each you are absolutely correct. And the $330 option isn't that hard to swallow.
What I'm saying is that if I want to purchase a 4100 right now, I'll pay $600. If I want to purchase a REAXX right now, I'll pay $1500.

Offline elfick

  • Posts: 530
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #96 on: March 19, 2015, 05:50 PM »
heh heh, I snuck my edit in before your reply  [big grin]

edit to note that I see your point that the 4100 is available right now for $600, but if you wanted to stick to that, the cost of the reaxx is actually infinite since it isn't available right now... since we won't know the street price until it's released, your only other option is to compare the price we do know, the list price.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6612
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #97 on: March 19, 2015, 05:54 PM »
heh heh, I snuck my edit in before your reply  [big grin]


Good job...I owe you one for that. [smile]

Offline GregBradley

  • Posts: 192
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #98 on: March 19, 2015, 06:30 PM »
Wouldn't a 15 amp 4 HP saw require 220v?
15a at 220v would only get you closer to 4hp.

120v 15a only gets you 4 nonsense HP. Some high RPM vacuums are claiming 6.5hp out of a 120v circuit.

To put it a bit more clearly, that motor will do 4hp worth of work for a part of one second with the overload circuit disabled just before it turns itself into useless junk.

Universal Motors are rated differently than Induction Motors.

That 4hp Universal Motor Saw will do about the same work as a 1.75hp Induction Motor saw for a VERY short time. It will do about the same amount of work as a 1.25hp Induction Motor saw for the typical use of a jobsite saw
« Last Edit: March 19, 2015, 06:35 PM by GregBradley »

Offline wow

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #99 on: March 19, 2015, 07:17 PM »
The rule of thumb I was taught back when I was a pup was that you could run a REAL 1.5HP motor on a typical 120 Volt circuit, but that was it. You couldn't run a 2HP one - period.

In addition to the 'downhill, with the wind, and once' nonsense ratings that are batted about these days, there have been some companies that have come out with REAL 1.75 HP motors to eek the last little bit of power out of a typical !20 Volt circuit. I think I *might* even remember a 1-7/8 HP rating one for the same reason.
Trying to be one of the most helpful members on the FOG.

Offline sae

  • Posts: 842
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #100 on: March 19, 2015, 08:27 PM »
Some info presented today were sale price and a SOMETIME in 2015 release date.  We've got it up on the site with some comprehensive video, photos and details.

Bosch REAXX Table Saw

Whoops...Bosch suggested retail price is $1499. I guess Saw Stop just got bailed out of their potential conundrum.

Is that the real price?

MSRP on the GCM12SD was also $1499...and I never saw the saw sold for over $799 ($649 now).

Offline wow

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #101 on: March 19, 2015, 08:33 PM »
Some info presented today were sale price and a SOMETIME in 2015 release date.  We've got it up on the site with some comprehensive video, photos and details.

Bosch REAXX Table Saw

Whoops...Bosch suggested retail price is $1499. I guess Saw Stop just got bailed out of their potential conundrum.

Is that the real price?

MSRP on the GCM12SD was also $1499...and I never saw the saw sold for over $799 ($649 now).

As long as that REAXX saw is less than $1000 street price, it will do very well. If they can offer it for $749-$799, they're gonna kick butt and take names.

This could get VERY interesting.
Trying to be one of the most helpful members on the FOG.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6612
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #102 on: March 19, 2015, 10:28 PM »
Wow, 
I concurr. If this saw can be purchased for $700-$900 it will be an ass kicker. At $1400, it will be an also ran because of the quality of the SawStop product for the same price.

Offline Frank Pellow

  • Posts: 2748
  • Toronto, Ontario and Lake Pivabiska, Ontario
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #103 on: March 20, 2015, 04:01 AM »
Wow, 
I concurr. If this saw can be purchased for $700-$900 it will be an  kicker. At $1400, it will be an also ran because of the quality of the SawStop product for the same price.

I expect that you will be able to get the Bosch for that street price.  But it will really surprise me if 'real' SawStop prices drop to that level.
Cheers,   
               Frank (Festool connoisseur)

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6612
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #104 on: March 20, 2015, 09:24 AM »
The rule of thumb I was taught back when I was a pup was that you could run a REAL 1.5HP motor on a typical 120 Volt circuit, but that was it. You couldn't run a 2HP one - period.

In addition to the 'downhill, with the wind, and once' nonsense ratings that are batted about these days, there have been some companies that have come out with REAL 1.75 HP motors to eek the last little bit of power out of a typical !20 Volt circuit. I think I *might* even remember a 1-7/8 HP rating one for the same reason.

Wow,
Thought you may be interested in this.  [smile]
I looked in my Baldor catalog and just to confirm your information, Baldor lists all of their single phase, 115 volt, 1 1/2 HP motors as requiring 12.6-16.4 amps. While all of their 2 HP motors require 16.6-23.0 amps. So to quote you, "You can't run a 2 HP one (on 15 amps) - period.", much less a 4 HP variant.

All of these motor rating shenanigans reminds me of the audio amplifier ratings in the 70's & 80's.  [huh]


Offline Tom Bellemare

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #105 on: March 20, 2015, 09:58 AM »
Can someone please help me with where my math is going wrong?

1 HP = 746 Watts
2 HP = 1492 Watts

The lower end of distributed electricity in the U.S. is ~110 VAC

1492 Watts / 110 VAC = ~13.56 Amps


Tom

Offline elfick

  • Posts: 530
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #106 on: March 20, 2015, 10:46 AM »
Can someone please help me with where my math is going wrong?

1 HP = 746 Watts
2 HP = 1492 Watts

The lower end of distributed electricity in the U.S. is ~110 VAC

1492 Watts / 110 VAC = ~13.56 Amps


Tom
Why do you think there is something wrong with your math? It looks right to me (IANAElectrician/Engineer).

For the REAXX they only published (that I could see) the HP (4) and amperage (15), so they are the numbers I used.

4 HP = 2984 W
W=VA so W/A=V so 2948/15= 198.3V

I suspect the numbers they published aren't for NA, at least not on 120V.

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 465
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #107 on: March 20, 2015, 10:53 AM »
You are not accounting for motor efficiency. I saw one reference to 80% efficiency for standard motors less 4 hp.

Now Festool can introduce a table saw with Bosch technology! I bet that one would not sell for <$1000!!!


Offline elfick

  • Posts: 530
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #108 on: March 20, 2015, 11:01 AM »
You are not accounting for motor efficiency. I saw one reference to 80% efficiency for standard motors less 4 hp.

Now Festool can introduce a table saw with Bosch technology! I bet that one would not sell for <$1000!!!
I'm not sure where efficiency fits in mathematically, but if it is where I think it is, then it does work out to a 240V saw.

198.93V * .2 = 39.79; 198.93 + 39.79 = 238.72V

Offline GregBradley

  • Posts: 192
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #109 on: March 20, 2015, 11:13 AM »
Can someone please help me with where my math is going wrong?

1 HP = 746 Watts
2 HP = 1492 Watts

The lower end of distributed electricity in the U.S. is ~110 VAC

1492 Watts / 110 VAC = ~13.56 Amps


Tom
Your math is correct.

A 1 HP motor can also be called a 746 Watt motor, meaning that it makes 746 Watts of Mechanical Power.

That doesn't mean that a 1 HP motor requires 746 Watts of Electrical Power.

It needs more than 746 Watts of Electrical Power to make 746 Watts of Mechanical Power.

Typically need 900 Watts of Electrical Power to make 746 Watts of Mechanical Power also known as 1 HP.

You can have a 2 HP motor running on 120v but you need a 20 A circuit to do it.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2015, 11:17 AM by GregBradley »

Offline Frank Pellow

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #110 on: March 20, 2015, 11:24 AM »
I just received an ad for pre-order of the Bosch GTS 1041A-09 REAXX saw from ToolNut and their price is the same as the list price set by Bosch, that is $1,499 (us).   [sad]  I really did expect to see a lower street price so that's bad news.

The ship date is November, 2015.
Cheers,   
               Frank (Festool connoisseur)

Offline Cheese

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #111 on: March 20, 2015, 11:26 AM »

Your math is correct.

A 1 HP motor can also be called a 746 Watt motor, meaning that it makes 746 Watts of Mechanical Power.

That doesn't mean that a 1 HP motor requires 746 Watts of Electrical Power.

It needs more than 746 Watts of Electrical Power to make 746 Watts of Mechanical Power.

Typically need 900 Watts of Electrical Power to make 746 Watts of Mechanical Power also known as 1 HP.

You can have a 2 HP motor running on 120v but you need a 20 A circuit to do it.

Thankyou...the light bulb just went on. Output vs input.

Offline Grasshopper

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #112 on: March 20, 2015, 11:34 AM »
I wouldn't expect them to lower the price out the gate for a brand new release product such as this.

I'd expect "sale" prices and lower street prices after the newness wears off.


I just received an ad for pre-order of the Bosch GTS 1041A-09 REAXX saw from ToolNut and their price is the same as the list price set by Bosch, that is $1,499 (us).   [sad]  I really did expect to see a lower street price so that's bad news.

The ship date is November, 2015.
Aspiring DIY'er (hence the name "grasshopper" as I am looking to learn from all the masters on the FOG)- TS 55, OF 1400, MFT/3, VS600 Dovetail Jig, MFS700+ MFS2000 extension profiles, Kapex, Kapex UG set, T12 Li set(x2), CT22, Domino, Carvex, RO90, RO150, MFK700, CMS-VL, Qwas super pack & Cool Wife.

Offline Sean Ackerman

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #113 on: March 20, 2015, 11:46 AM »
I wouldn't expect them to lower the price out the gate for a brand new release product such as this.

I'd expect "sale" prices and lower street prices after the newness wears off.


I just received an ad for pre-order of the Bosch GTS 1041A-09 REAXX saw from ToolNut and their price is the same as the list price set by Bosch, that is $1,499 (us).   [sad]  I really did expect to see a lower street price so that's bad news.

The ship date is November, 2015.

At the end of the day.... it's expensive tech.  It may be a few years, and take a few more competitors, to bring these prices down.

Note estimated delivery schedule of November 2015
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Offline grbmds

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #114 on: March 20, 2015, 12:41 PM »
I've always found HP ratings on electric motors misleading. The manufacturers seem to rate them to suit their own purposes rather than trying to provide accurate information. I'm not the expert but the amps and the type of motor would determine how much power it provides, wouldn't it? In the case of Bosch, is there any reason to believe the motor is any different than the motor in the current 4100? Seems like the same saw. Whatever that motor is, this new saw is likely to be the same. It's is rated with the same number of amps. I can't believe you would get 4HP from a 15 amp motor. It doesn't seem like that is possible.
Randy

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #115 on: March 20, 2015, 12:44 PM »
I'm not sure where efficiency fits in mathematically, but if it is where I think it is, then it does work out to a 240V saw.

198.93V * .2 = 39.79; 198.93 + 39.79 = 238.72V

The complete equation is:

Hp = V x I x pf x eff / 746

V - Volts
I - Amps
pf - PowerFactor
eff - efficiency

The powerfactor is a variable function that changes depending on motor load. When the motor is idling with no load, the powerfactor is only about 0.15. As the motor approaches maximum load, the powerfactor approaches 0.90 (1.0 theoretic). When the motor nameplate specifies a powerfactor, it is actually kind of an arbitrary number depending on how conservative the engineers/company wanted to be for how far they push their windings. This is why some motors are listed at 0.80 (most common) and some push it to 0.90.

The efficiency is actually a different and less common number that most people mistake for the powerfactor. This is a fixed number for that specific motor, and relates to windage losses (air friction), air gap between the stator and rotor, and electrical hysteresis losses in the iron core of the windings. This number is also around 0.80 to 0.90, but will be the higher end for better quality motors.

In order for a tool to comply with U.S. standards, it's current must be limited to 16 amps on a 20 amp circuit. So a power tool can have a maximum power delivery of about:

120 x 16 x 0.85 x 0.85 / 746 = 1.85 Hp

Offline Frank Pellow

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #116 on: March 20, 2015, 12:51 PM »
Thanks for the detailed explanation Rick.

What I would like to know is how Bosch can possibly try to claim 4hp.  Is there some brief period at start up where the power could theoretically get to that level.  [scratch chin]

Shame on you Bosch for this deception!   [mad]
Cheers,   
               Frank (Festool connoisseur)

Offline Cheese

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #117 on: March 20, 2015, 12:54 PM »
Thanks for the formula Rick [big grin]
It's a bit more involved than I thought.

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #118 on: March 20, 2015, 12:55 PM »
I believe they do it mathematically by bringing the motor to an abrupt stop and calculating horsepower based on the resulting torque and rpm from full speed.

Offline thedude306

  • Posts: 192
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #119 on: March 20, 2015, 01:01 PM »
I think they make the same crazy claims on their (Bosch) routers.

I'm just glad this opens up some competition and moves power tool tech forward (I hope)

Brad T.

Offline Cheese

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #120 on: March 20, 2015, 01:02 PM »
Hmmm...maybe they use a SawStop cartridge for that part [eek]

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Sean Ackerman

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #121 on: March 20, 2015, 01:04 PM »
I believe they do it mathematically by bringing the motor to an abrupt stop and calculating horsepower based on the resulting torque and rpm from full speed.

What Rick said, it's either a nominal rating or some unrealistic application.  Example, some companies rate torque on their drill /drivers by throwing a HUGE self feed bit on it, drill into something SUPER hard, bind the tool up and measure the torque at the point the drill is about to rip your wrist apart and your shoulder out of the socket.  And there ya go, max torque.  Not usable per se
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Offline Grasshopper

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #122 on: March 20, 2015, 03:15 PM »
I wanted to chime in again and just say that I think this is awesome.  I don't mind the price, and I love the tech.  I think it's brilliant that you can reset and get back to work if you happen to trip the saw.

I hope to see more innovations like this.
Aspiring DIY'er (hence the name "grasshopper" as I am looking to learn from all the masters on the FOG)- TS 55, OF 1400, MFT/3, VS600 Dovetail Jig, MFS700+ MFS2000 extension profiles, Kapex, Kapex UG set, T12 Li set(x2), CT22, Domino, Carvex, RO90, RO150, MFK700, CMS-VL, Qwas super pack & Cool Wife.

Offline NERemodeling

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #123 on: March 20, 2015, 07:39 PM »
i got a real look at the saw today and it seems very nice..   largely based on the bosch 4100..     it is around 78lbs saw only and i think the guy said around 130lbs with the stand.    the internals do seem quite beefy so im sure it it will hold up quite well to a discharge.
 
in the video you will notice that the saw actually misfires the first time he goes to make a cut   it fired when it hit the wood and not the hot dog.. maybe it was wet from the hot dog or something..   he seemed a little thrown off and surprised about it so it probably hadn't happened to him before.  also these are obviously pre production models with the planned fall release so im sure they have some kinks to iron out
he fire it up a second time and it works excellent.    its amazing how fast you can change the cartridge and get back to work
 
enjoy guys

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Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #124 on: March 20, 2015, 07:50 PM »

in the video you will notice that the saw actually misfires the first time he goes to make a cut   it fired when it hit the wood and not the hot dog.. maybe it was wet from the hot dog or something..   

Actually, it never even got to the wood yet. Something else caused it to misfire. It could have been the splitter that touched the blade. Things do tend to go awry at trade shows, so it's probably not that big of a deal.

Offline Charlie Mac

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #125 on: March 20, 2015, 08:47 PM »
It seemed to happen just when the plastic guard touched the food.

Offline jafenske

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #126 on: March 20, 2015, 09:18 PM »
Has anyone seen any information regarding the use of dados with this saw.

Offline Frank Pellow

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #127 on: March 21, 2015, 04:21 AM »
Has anyone seen any information regarding the use of dados with this saw.

Yes.  A regular 8" dado stack is supported and does not require a speciall cartridge.
Cheers,   
               Frank (Festool connoisseur)

Offline Frank Pellow

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #128 on: March 21, 2015, 04:31 AM »
As Bosch says, the 4100 REAXX saw is an improved 4100 -09.   The most obvious improvement is the "flesh detecting drop down'.  But, there is at least one other improvement.  The fence on the 4100 -09 is kind of finicky to set properly whereas the 4100 REAXX saw's fence is obviously easier to set (and appears to me to be a little bit larger). 

Can anyone spot any other improvements?
Cheers,   
               Frank (Festool connoisseur)

Offline Kev

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #129 on: March 21, 2015, 04:39 AM »
What was that? Oh ... that's the sound of sausages all around the world letting out a united sigh of relief. Safe at last! [big grin]

To me the good thing here is that regulators can now intelligently mandate a capability rather than a proprietary product (which has always been my beef in this area).

It's going to be interesting to watch the market now ... I can see a bit of rebadging happening soon!


Offline Paul G

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #130 on: March 21, 2015, 07:49 AM »
What was that? Oh ... that's the sound of sausages all around the world letting out a united sigh of relief. Safe at last! [big grin]

To me the good thing here is that regulators can now intelligently mandate a capability rather than a proprietary product (which has always been my beef in this area).

It's going to be interesting to watch the market now ... I can see a bit of rebadging happening soon!

Frankly I see nothing intelligent about mandating this capability.
+1

Offline elfick

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #131 on: March 21, 2015, 08:20 AM »
Can anyone spot any other improvements?
Does the 4100 have that extending outfeed table/ledge? I think that's pretty cool.

Offline SittingElf

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #132 on: March 21, 2015, 08:25 AM »

To me the good thing here is that regulators can now intelligently mandate a capability rather than a proprietary product (which has always been my beef in this area).


Frankly I see nothing intelligent about mandating this capability.

Except of course eliminating a large percentage of the estimated $2.6Billion/yr in medical costs for TS accidents...in the USA alone.

Seat Belts are mandated
Shatter-Proof glass is mandated
Hearing protection is mandated
Helmets are mandated (construction)
Etc, Etc....

I DO see the benefits of mandating safety technology...especially for products and conditions that have been clearly identified as being problems. Table saws fit this bill in spades.


Frank
Woodworking is 3% talent and 97% paying attention to the FOG! 

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Offline Frank Pellow

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #133 on: March 21, 2015, 08:54 AM »
Can anyone spot any other improvements?
Does the 4100 have that extending outfeed table/ledge? I think that's pretty cool.

Well spotted.  There is  a smaller out-feed support available as an ad-on for about $30.  Here is a photo:



The out-feed support on the 4100 REAXX is larger and appears to be more robust.

Cheers,   
               Frank (Festool connoisseur)

Offline hopper

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #134 on: March 21, 2015, 04:28 PM »
There is , also, a side extension similar to that outfeed extension available for the 4100 saw.  I have had both extensions on my saw for over a year now.

http://www.amazon.ca/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=bosch%20extension%20table%20for%20saw

Offline ccmviking

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #135 on: March 21, 2015, 08:12 PM »
Has anyone seen a test on the Bosch or SawStop that represents someone reaching across the blade to get a cut off piece of wood as often happens in these injuries.  I've always seen it demonstrated laying on a piece of wood and being fed into the saw.  I'm sure it would work pretty much the same, just wondering if the nick would change much in severity if your finger went more rapidly into the blade as in the normal course of work.

Chris...

Offline Kev

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #136 on: March 22, 2015, 08:14 AM »
What was that? Oh ... that's the sound of sausages all around the world letting out a united sigh of relief. Safe at last! [big grin]

To me the good thing here is that regulators can now intelligently mandate a capability rather than a proprietary product (which has always been my beef in this area).

It's going to be interesting to watch the market now ... I can see a bit of rebadging happening soon!

Sorry ... what am I thinking using the words "intelligent" and "regulators" in the sane sentence [huh]

Frankly I see nothing intelligent about mandating this capability.

Offline ajcoholic

  • Posts: 44
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #137 on: March 22, 2015, 03:03 PM »
Having had three firings on my 5 HP Industrial SS (one due to multiple quick power fades, one due to trying to cut some copper clad laminate and forgetting to lock out the trigger, and one due to touching the aluminum mitre fence) I have to say that the claims of people saying the SS destroys the blades, is false.

I use good quality, industrial (Onsrud, FS Tool, BC Saw & Tool, Forest) full kerf blades.  I have triggered the saw twice on the same blade and other than one slightly chipped tooth which was a few bbucks to replace on the next sharpening, the blades were still true and back on the saw cutting within a few minutes.

The Bosch cartridge is still going to cost $$ to replace after 2 firings as well.  You wont get something for nothing.

I like the competition.  The more saws like this on the market for those who do want the technology, the better.  But I dont think, after over a decade in business Sawstop will suddenly be put out of business, as they make a very good saw.

I run a professional cabinet and custom woodworking shop with myself and 2 employees.  Been in full time business since I took over from my father in 97' and I grew up in the business since starting to work as a young teen in the early 80's.

I have seen a few very serious (lost fingers) saw accidents.  I dont want any of my guys, nor either of my two sons to go through that, even a small accident never mind several amputated fingers.

Accidents can happen to the best of "us".  Having been through several shops over my career, I always look to see who's got all ten digits and there is always a surprising # who do not, unfortunatley.  Why fight a good technological advance?  It just might save you, or one of your employees hands.

If I could get the technology on my $20,000 panel saw, I would have bought it as well.  Saws are still IMO the prevelant danger in the custom woodshop.  Since they are called upon to do many tasks other than just straight cutting.

Andrew J Coholic
Joe Coholic Custom Furniture Ltd.

(PS I do have a bunch of Festool stuff too, I just dont post much).

Offline Tom Bellemare

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #138 on: March 22, 2015, 06:57 PM »
It's always nice to hear the voice of reason...

Thank you!


Tom

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1929
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #139 on: March 22, 2015, 09:47 PM »
Yeah, I have all my fingers, but don't turn down any safety mechanism period and especially on a table saw. I've had a couple of close calls over the years and they were the result of a loss of concentration or distraction or a sudden random event with the wood or just a human mistake. As I get older, I know my reaction time is not quite as fast as it used to be and the next close call might just be the one where I don't recover in time.
Randy

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 465
Waiting for Reaxx
« Reply #140 on: November 20, 2015, 10:33 AM »
Bosch 09 Reaxx Portable - Free Shipping. Tax Free. In Stock‎

Copied from Google. But click on the Tool Nut link and find out it is not yet in stock.  Oops.

It is getting late on in 2015 for a product launch this year. Any one hear other news?

In other news the Elio (three wheeled US car) launch has been delayed another 6 months or so (late 2016). Not looking good there.

Offline Shane Holland

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #141 on: November 20, 2015, 10:46 AM »
Thanks for the heads up.

Latest info I've heard is limited availability in early 2016.
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Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 465
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #142 on: December 26, 2015, 11:06 AM »
In just under two weeks we can all crowd around the Bosch booth at the Woodworking Show in Baltimore and ask about the delivery date for the Reaxx.

I think that Sawstop and Bosch should do a cross license agreement. That way Sawstop could get the possibly superior blade retraction mechanism for their larger table saws and Bosch could compete in the portable market without worry about the lawsuit.

Offline Kev

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #143 on: December 27, 2015, 10:35 AM »
I'd be curious if the blades retract when they start cutting into a lawyer ... nothing human about them.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6189
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #144 on: December 27, 2015, 12:35 PM »
I'd be curious if the blades retract when they start cutting into a lawyer ... nothing human about them.

That question has already been answered. The guy who made it is lawyer, right?  [wink]

Offline Snoring Bear

  • Posts: 40
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #145 on: December 27, 2015, 08:08 PM »
Interesting, reviews posted already? Hmmmm can't seem to truthful

http://www.boschtools.com/Products/Tools/Pages/BoschProductDetail.aspx?pid=GTS1041A-09#reviews
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Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #146 on: December 27, 2015, 08:19 PM »
Interesting, reviews posted already? Hmmmm can't seem to truthful

http://www.boschtools.com/Products/Tools/Pages/BoschProductDetail.aspx?pid=GTS1041A-09#reviews

I'm thinking they posted the review on the wrong saw site, they own the 4100 not the 4100-09??

Tom

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1929
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #147 on: December 28, 2015, 12:24 AM »
Looks like the reviews GTS1041A-09 which is what all the reviews seem to be under. I would assume that Bosch is trying to make the case that the Reaxx is the same high quality saw but with the safety freature added. Give that Bosch appears to have postponed release of the Reaxx saw for at least 6 months, they needed to keep some interest so that potential customers would possible wait the extra time,  Meanwhile those of use who wanted a safe, high quality, movable, fold up saw, have been able to use their Sawstop Jobsite saws for almost a year before the Bosch is available. To me, the Sawstop jobsite was one of the best purchases I have made over the past 2 years with the Domino coming in as a tie. The saw really works well for me in my shop, movable when I need it be, out of the way when I need it to be, accurate cuts, good dust collection with my cycloe, and peace of mind because it's safe. If the Bosch is as good as the Sawstop, it would be great to have competition but, given it was projected at $1500 instead of the Sawstop's $1300, the competition might not be as much of a factor.
Randy

Offline Sparktrician

  • Posts: 3837
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #148 on: December 28, 2015, 08:20 AM »
I'd be curious if the blades retract when they start cutting into a lawyer ... nothing human about them.

That question has already been answered. The guy who made it is lawyer, right?  [wink]
 

What?  You didn't read the manual?  It says very clearly, "When cutting lawyers, engage the lockout switch before feeding the lawyer to the blade.  Be sure to wear proper eye and ear protection.  Lawyers are known to be loud and messy when dismembered." 

 [big grin]
- Willy -

 "Remember, a chip on the shoulder is a sure sign of wood higher up." - Brigham Young

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7652
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #149 on: December 28, 2015, 09:48 AM »
I'd be curious if the blades retract when they start cutting into a lawyer ... nothing human about them.

That question has already been answered. The guy who made it is lawyer, right?  [wink]
 

What?  You didn't read the manual?  It says very clearly, "When cutting lawyers, engage the lockout switch before feeding the lawyer to the blade.  Be sure to wear proper eye and ear protection.  Lawyers are known to be loud and messy when dismembered." 

 [big grin]

Sorry .. I got out of the habit of reading manuals with Festool .. never anything useful.

I see it suggests the same method for politicians [cool]

Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #150 on: December 29, 2015, 11:26 AM »

To me the good thing here is that regulators can now intelligently mandate a capability rather than a proprietary product (which has always been my beef in this area).


Frankly I see nothing intelligent about mandating this capability.

Except of course eliminating a large percentage of the estimated $2.6Billion/yr in medical costs for TS accidents...in the USA alone.

Seat Belts are mandated
Shatter-Proof glass is mandated
Hearing protection is mandated
Helmets are mandated (construction)
Etc, Etc....

I DO see the benefits of mandating safety technology...especially for products and conditions that have been clearly identified as being problems. Table saws fit this bill in spades.


Frank

The Sawstop and now the Bosch address physical contact with the blade after all other safety devices fail to protect the user which is one form of table saw accidents. 

Kick back is another form of table saw accident with serious consequence.  It would be interesting to review safety records to see if kick back is the more serious and more common cause of table saw accidents.  It would also be interesting to understand which forms of accidents occur in commercial versus residential use.

Blade guards, riving knives, anti-kickback pawls and other safety devices are also fitted to reduce the likelihood of kick back.

My own person experience is that I had a non-injury kick-back that missed me but never a flesh/blade contact.  This doesn't constitute a study, but I think kick-back has a measure of unpredictability that is terrifying such as when a stress relieved board tries to grab the blade.  Sure the riving knife or splitter can help, but it really depends on how the board splits.

Sliding table saws have a number of features that are unique in comparison to regular table saws that enhance safety.  In addition to the usual guards, sliding table saws allow the user to stand to the side of the saw instead of the front of the saw and thereby reduce the likelihood of serious kickback injury aimed at the user from the waist up.  Sliding saws also allow the user to set-up cuts so that the users hands are no where near the blade.  In addition sliding saws allow the fence to be slid to reduce the likelihood of fence jammed kickback.  Of course, conventional table saws could be retrofitted with this improvement.

For my money, I think that I would rather have a saw that helps me utilize it in an inherently safe manner by keeping me away from the blade and out of the path of most kickbacks.

Sliding table saws tend to be more expensive than conventional table saws but they also offer enhanced capability and productivity as well as keeping me away from the blade.

So there is more than one way to provide safety and stopping the blade only protects against one form of accident involving physical contact with the blade.

I'm saving up for a sliding saw and I would have been pretty angry if the cost of such saws was increased for safety device that while useful is way less useful than getting me a well designed much safer saw than my ancient Rockwell/delta.


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Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 465
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #151 on: May 05, 2016, 10:21 PM »
I found a comment recently that the lawsuit may go to trial sometime this month (May 2016). I have no idea how long this sort of trial lasts. I also do not know how often a settlement is made after a trial starts, but before a decision is rendered.

I still think a settlement would be a smart move for Sawstop. If Bosch loses, they lose a small increment in sales. If Sawstop loses, they lose a possibly significant amount of sales as people either are mad at Sawstop actions or they think the Bosch mechanism is superior.

Offline Kev

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #152 on: May 06, 2016, 12:11 AM »
I found a comment recently that the lawsuit may go to trial sometime this month (May 2016). I have no idea how long this sort of trial lasts. I also do not know how often a settlement is made after a trial starts, but before a decision is rendered.

I still think a settlement would be a smart move for Sawstop. If Bosch loses, they lose a small increment in sales. If Sawstop loses, they lose a possibly significant amount of sales as people either are mad at Sawstop actions or they think the Bosch mechanism is superior.

Gass stands for Greed And SawStop. I hope Bosch smash him to bits.

Offline Shane Holland

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #153 on: May 06, 2016, 12:13 AM »
We're taking orders for the Reaxx, ships June 1st. A little competition in the marketplace is always healthy for consumers.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 12:20 AM by Shane Holland »
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Offline Dovetail65

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #154 on: May 06, 2016, 12:22 AM »
I didn't like the Saw Stop at all.  For me the Saw Stop's fantastic industrial table saw didn't translate to their portable offering. Its like they made a typical run of the mill table saw, put on the safety protection and think its worth 1500., its not.  IF the Saw Stop didn't have the safety tech its a 350.00 Bench saw, IMHO. I prefer a couple of my DeWalts over it.

From using Bosch's other portable table saws I am betting the Bosch is going to be the better saw, regardless of the safely tech. If  the safety tech does work on this Bosch and it appears it does, I think Saw Stop may just drop their portable saw down the line. Otherwise they are going to have to step up their game.

I hope this Bosch is a great saw and spurs even more competition because we should be getting these saws for about 750.00, even 500.00. Until they sell at a reasonable price I won't buy a safety saw again for myself, but I would for a crew saw. I had one guy cut his finger off and for that reason alone I would get another. At least now I have a choice, good on Bosch.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 12:29 AM by Dovetail65 »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline Kev

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #155 on: May 06, 2016, 01:15 AM »
We're taking orders for the Reaxx, ships June 1st. A little competition in the marketplace is always healthy for consumers.

@Shane Holland I hope you sell a million of them [big grin] [big grin]

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 465
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #156 on: May 06, 2016, 10:09 AM »
Shane,

As I believe I have said before, it only takes one injunction to stop the sale of the Reaxx anywhere in the US. If Bosch says you can start selling on June 1, then they must have manufactured a large number of the saws already. They are either confident of a quick win in the lawsuit or they are wiling to do a settlement. Otherwise, they could end up sitting on that inventory for years.

If it does not violate terms of sale, it would be interesting to know if the Reaxx is already in the warehouse or, if not, when the saws do arrive.

Offline Alex

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #157 on: May 06, 2016, 02:46 PM »
They are either confident of a quick win in the lawsuit or they are wiling to do a settlement. Otherwise, they could end up sitting on that inventory for years.

Bosch is a company with a $5 billion annual profit.

You can bet they have a strategy for the release of this saw.

And this plays only in North America, that's the only place where SawStop operates. Bosch can sell their saws over the entire world.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 05:46 PM by Alex »

Offline Dovetail65

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #158 on: May 06, 2016, 03:47 PM »
Bosch had a world wide revenue of 70 billion Euro for all divisions combined  last year and the guy with the  most stock has a 4.6 billion dollar personal fortune. I  know there is talk that out of all that revenue they actually didn't make much profit, still their lawyers would eat Saw Stop for breakfast.

More imporat it appears the technology is completely different. I am sure  Bosch patent lawyers did their due diligence.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 03:54 PM by Dovetail65 »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline JimH2

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #159 on: May 06, 2016, 05:29 PM »
I didn't like the Saw Stop at all.  For me the Saw Stop's fantastic industrial table saw didn't translate to their portable offering. Its like they made a typical run of the mill table saw, put on the safety protection and think its worth 1500., its not.  IF the Saw Stop didn't have the safety tech its a 350.00 Bench saw, IMHO. I prefer a couple of my DeWalts over it.

From using Bosch's other portable table saws I am betting the Bosch is going to be the better saw, regardless of the safely tech. If  the safety tech does work on this Bosch and it appears it does, I think Saw Stop may just drop their portable saw down the line. Otherwise they are going to have to step up their game.

I hope this Bosch is a great saw and spurs even more competition because we should be getting these saws for about 750.00, even 500.00. Until they sell at a reasonable price I won't buy a safety saw again for myself, but I would for a crew saw. I had one guy cut his finger off and for that reason alone I would get another. At least now I have a choice, good on Bosch.

I could not agree more on the portable SawStop. I think it was rushed to market the fight of the pending release of the Reaxx. I have the SawStop Professional and it is a very well built saw.

Offline JimH2

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #160 on: May 06, 2016, 05:31 PM »
We're taking orders for the Reaxx, ships June 1st. A little competition in the marketplace is always healthy for consumers.

Your site lists the retail cost which is similar to the 4100 which sells for around $700. I take it that there will be a similar reduction from list price.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6189
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #161 on: May 06, 2016, 05:49 PM »
Bosch had a world wide revenue of 70 billion Euro for all divisions combined  last year and the guy with the  most stock has a 4.6 billion dollar personal fortune. I  know there is talk that out of all that revenue they actually didn't make much profit, still their lawyers would eat Saw Stop for breakfast.

Right, I should have used the word profit, not turnover. Changed it in my post.


Offline Shane Holland

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #162 on: May 06, 2016, 06:47 PM »
Your site lists the retail cost which is similar to the 4100 which sells for around $700. I take it that there will be a similar reduction from list price.

@JimH2 this is one of those items where the manufacturer prohibits discounting. So that's the price.
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Offline Cheese

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #163 on: May 06, 2016, 11:09 PM »
Ya I'm at a loss as to say who is the biggest sinner in this battle.

The Bosch 4100 is a $700 table saw, yet, the 4100 improved version with the addition of a finger saver costs $800 more. As much as I dislike the Gass Guy...this whole thing smacks of sucking the life blood out of your current customers. I had hoped that Bosch would have been more sensitive to their existing customers and would have actually tried to be a service to their existing customer base rather than trying to hold them hostage.
I own a Bosch 4000 saw and love it, and would have gladly upgraded to this new version, however this new marketing twist leaves a sour taste in my mouth. 
« Last Edit: May 07, 2016, 09:08 AM by Cheese »

Online Kevin D.

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #164 on: May 12, 2016, 03:00 PM »
Ya I'm at a loss as to say who is the biggest sinner in this battle.

The Bosch 4100 is a $700 table saw, yet, the 4100 improved version with the addition of a finger saver costs $800 more. As much as I dislike the Gass Guy...this whole thing smacks of sucking the life blood out of your current customers. I had hoped that Bosch would have been more sensitive to their existing customers and would have actually tried to be a service to their existing customer base rather than trying to hold them hostage.
I own a Bosch 4000 saw and love it, and would have gladly upgraded to this new version, however this new marketing twist leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

It may look the same at first glance. but to my surprise, there's a lot more to it than their 4100 model.  After watching this video, I see where the pricing is more justified.  Adding a brain and better fence for one are big leaps imo.



https://www.boschtools.com/us/en/boschtools-ocs/table-saws-gts1041a-09-113798-p/
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 03:03 PM by Kevin D. »
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Offline jimbo51

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #165 on: May 12, 2016, 03:46 PM »
A quick Google search indicated that the 4100 weighs 60 lbs and the Reaxx weighs 78 lbs. Would the sensing and retraction mechanisms add 18 lbs?

I would hope that the Reaxx has a heavier frame. The fact that Bosch recommends sending the saw in four service after 25 actuations suggests how much stress the firing mechanism puts on the alignment of the saw.

Obviously Bosch could have priced the Reaxx a bit lower than the Sawstop (or allowed discounting). However, they may have decided to not risk a price war which would decrease profit margins. They are likely banking on some superior design features and the dislike many have for Sawstop due to various actions that Sawstop has taken over the last several years.




Offline kcufstoidi

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #166 on: May 12, 2016, 09:25 PM »
Ya I'm at a loss as to say who is the biggest sinner in this battle.

The Bosch 4100 is a $700 table saw, yet, the 4100 improved version with the addition of a finger saver costs $800 more. As much as I dislike the Gass Guy...this whole thing smacks of sucking the life blood out of your current customers. I had hoped that Bosch would have been more sensitive to their existing customers and would have actually tried to be a service to their existing customer base rather than trying to hold them hostage.
I own a Bosch 4000 saw and love it, and would have gladly upgraded to this new version, however this new marketing twist leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

Someone has to pay for a superior design, a cartridge that can fire twice and not destroy blades in the process. The sawstop looks archaic in design by comparison. I sure overtime the price will soften and deals will pop up.

John

Offline Cheese

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #167 on: May 12, 2016, 10:37 PM »
It may look the same at first glance. but to my surprise, there's a lot more to it than their 4100 model.  After watching this video, I see where the pricing is more justified.  Adding a brain and better fence for one are big leaps imo.

@Kevin D.
Thanks for posting, that was very informative. I'm still not completely convinced of the pricing disparity, but will probably embrace it faster than if I had not seen the video. I learned something...thanks. 

Offline jimbo51

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #168 on: June 04, 2016, 08:35 AM »
I see that Toolnut is listing the Bosch Reaxx as in stock. Has anyone bought one yet?

I will have to find the closest dealer to Philadelphia and take a look at one.

Offline Kev

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #169 on: June 04, 2016, 09:12 AM »


Offline Shane Holland

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #170 on: June 04, 2016, 11:32 AM »
I see that Toolnut is listing the Bosch Reaxx as in stock. Has anyone bought one yet?

Yes, we do have them in stock. I think we've just about sold out but have more on the way.
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Offline danbox

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #171 on: June 04, 2016, 12:04 PM »
A quick Google search indicated that the 4100 weighs 60 lbs and the Reaxx weighs 78 lbs. Would the sensing and retraction mechanisms add 18 lbs?

I would hope that the Reaxx has a heavier frame. The fact that Bosch recommends sending the saw in four service after 25 actuations suggests how much stress the firing mechanism puts on the alignment of the saw.

Obviously Bosch could have priced the Reaxx a bit lower than the Sawstop (or allowed discounting). However, they may have decided to not risk a price war which would decrease profit margins. They are likely banking on some superior design features and the dislike many have for Sawstop due to various actions that Sawstop has taken over the last several years.
If you activate this 25 times or more while using it you should never be allowed to use a table saw again.

Offline danbox

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #172 on: June 04, 2016, 12:20 PM »
Anyone know when these will be available in the UK and what the price will be?

Online Kevin D.

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #173 on: June 07, 2016, 03:59 AM »
A quick Google search indicated that the 4100 weighs 60 lbs and the Reaxx weighs 78 lbs. Would the sensing and retraction mechanisms add 18 lbs?

I would hope that the Reaxx has a heavier frame. The fact that Bosch recommends sending the saw in four service after 25 actuations suggests how much stress the firing mechanism puts on the alignment of the saw.

Obviously Bosch could have priced the Reaxx a bit lower than the Sawstop (or allowed discounting). However, they may have decided to not risk a price war which would decrease profit margins. They are likely banking on some superior design features and the dislike many have for Sawstop due to various actions that Sawstop has taken over the last several years.

Funny.  I just inadvertently saw the SawStop equivalent to the Reaxx today for the first time visiting my local Lee Valley here in Canada.  While I may be jaded from years of using a cabinet saw, just in fiddling with raising the blade, it felt flimsy, after which. I quickly moved on to other things more pressing on my visit.  Maybe that's where Bosch went and built something of their own better and where SS decided to build a POS lower end unit to get people to opt for their much more expensive other models.  That's all conjecture all around frankly and admittedly shows my general disdain for SawStop and its owner.

When it comes to a price war, SS just announced a price reduction on all their saws days ago.  When you stop and look at the Davey and Goliath in this, Bosch is the Goliath by far.  But SS is hardly a 'Davey".  They're more like a pestering and unwelcoming gnat that needs to finally be swatted away.
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Offline Kev

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #174 on: June 07, 2016, 04:25 AM »

Funny.  I just inadvertently saw the SawStop equivalent to the Reaxx today for the first time visiting my local Lee Valley here in Canada.  While I may be jaded from years of using a cabinet saw, just in fiddling with raising the blade, it felt flimsy, after which. I quickly moved on to other things more pressing on my visit.  Maybe that's where Bosch went and built something of their own better and where SS decided to build a POS lower end unit to get people to opt for their much more expensive other models.  That's all conjecture all around frankly and admittedly shows my general disdain for SawStop and its owner.

When it comes to a price war, SS just announced a price reduction on all their saws days ago.  When you stop and look at the Davey and Goliath in this, Bosch is the Goliath by far.  But SS is hardly a 'Davey".  They're more like a pestering and unwelcoming gnat that needs to finally be swatted away.

You made me giggle and choke on the wine I was drinking [tongue]

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #175 on: June 07, 2016, 11:08 AM »
That's all conjecture all around frankly and admittedly shows my general disdain for SawStop and its owner.

The table saw that some folks love to hate.
+1

Offline danbox

  • Posts: 70
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #176 on: June 07, 2016, 12:20 PM »
What is the shelf life of the cartridge's? As someone who have never had an accident on a table saw this is still a great feature to have but if the cartridge's are never used what life span do they have before they need replacing?

Offline Matthew Lennon

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #177 on: June 07, 2016, 12:22 PM »
What is the shelf life of the cartridge's? As someone who have never had an accident on a table saw this is still a great feature to have but if the cartridge's are never used what life span do they have before they need replacing?

Bosch has listed these cartridges to have a 20 year shelf life.
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Offline danbox

  • Posts: 70
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #178 on: June 07, 2016, 12:25 PM »
What is the shelf life of the cartridge's? As someone who have never had an accident on a table saw this is still a great feature to have but if the cartridge's are never used what life span do they have before they need replacing?

Okay cheers, well the four cartridges should be more than enough for me then.

Bosch has listed these cartridges to have a 20 year shelf life.

Offline Sparktrician

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #179 on: June 07, 2016, 06:47 PM »
That's all conjecture all around frankly and admittedly shows my general disdain for SawStop and its owner.

The table saw that some folks love to hate.

I dare say that it's not the saws, which happen to be very well made; it's the owner of the company that draws fire due to his business practices.
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Offline Svar

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #180 on: June 07, 2016, 07:14 PM »
That's all conjecture all around frankly and admittedly shows my general disdain for SawStop and its owner.

The table saw that some folks love to hate.

I dare say that it's not the saws, which happen to be very well made; it's the owner of the company that draws fire due to his business practices.

That "fire" is most certainly disproportionate considering the "business practice" episode that took place 10 years ago. Case closed, lesson learned. Give it a rest. Most of the big business done worse things than that without drawing much attention. Give Guss some credit for delivering revolutionary product and waking saw makers out of coma. Without him competitors like Reaxx would not have been on the market today.

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Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #181 on: June 07, 2016, 08:54 PM »

That "fire" is most certainly disproportionate considering the "business practice" episode that took place 10 years ago. Case closed, lesson learned. Give it a rest. Most of the big business done worse things than that without drawing much attention. Give Guss some credit for delivering revolutionary product and waking saw makers out of coma. Without him competitors like Reaxx would not have been on the market today.

That's pretty much my take on things as well. I not only give him credit but also some business. I hope the Bosch meets expectations for those who choose it, good to have options.
+1

Offline Cheese

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #182 on: June 08, 2016, 12:35 AM »
Quote from: Paul G link=topic=38935.msg462844#msg462844 date=
...good to have options.
[/quote

Actually, it's great to have options...you make your bed and you lie in it. 

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #183 on: June 08, 2016, 01:34 AM »
Actually, it's great to have options...you make your bed and you lie in it.

Ironically, some new beds are projects that I'll likely use my sawstop on, and I'll even lay in them  [cool].
+1

Offline bigjonh

  • Posts: 128
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #184 on: June 08, 2016, 05:25 AM »
Hmmm, now do I buy a reaxx? Or 1/3 of a Mafell Erica?  [tongue]

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #185 on: June 08, 2016, 06:40 AM »
Hmmm, now do I buy a reaxx? Or 1/3 of a Mafell Erica?  [tongue]

If you have a Kapex or CMS, then the relaax seems logical.

But Reaxx and Kapex must be more than 1/3 Erika if the Reaxx alone is 1/3-Erika

Offline jamanjeval

  • Posts: 83
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #186 on: June 16, 2016, 11:07 AM »
If you activate this 25 times or more while using it you should never be allowed to use a table saw again.
[/quote]

You're assuming that each activation is due to the blade sensing actual flesh. Yes, if you actually touch the blade 25 times, you probably should not use a table saw. However, there can be false activations due to cutting wet wood or conductive materials like aluminum foil clad foam insulation board.

25 activations seem like a lot, but I predict that some users are going to hit this number easily with all of them being triggered by non-flesh contact.

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 866
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #187 on: June 16, 2016, 12:48 PM »

If you activate this 25 times or more while using it you should never be allowed to use a table saw again.

You're assuming that each activation is due to the blade sensing actual flesh. Yes, if you actually touch the blade 25 times, you probably should not use a table saw. However, there can be false activations due to cutting wet wood or conductive materials like aluminum foil clad foam insulation board.

25 activations seem like a lot, but I predict that some users are going to hit this number easily with all of them being triggered by non-flesh contact.

If it activates on non-flesh contact then it's an inferior product when compared to a SawStop. I do agree there could be some occurrences where it could misfire such as wet wood and other materials. Of course you would rather have a false positive misfire in any case. I've had a SawStop since 2006 and have never had a misfire. Given the Bosch is mobile it will have a lot more opportunity to have damp wood run through it, but it does have a bypass for those times.

I do agree that if someone activates this 25 times or more while using it you should never be allowed to use a table saw again or you have a defective tablesaw. The advantage of the Reaxx is that a tripping does not damage the blade. This is a true advantage if the trip was inadvertent, however if it was a finger save the operator needs to stand down for at least a day. Swapping out the cartridge and continuing to work on the saw is insane.

Offline Shane Holland

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #188 on: June 16, 2016, 12:50 PM »
Swapping out the cartridge and continuing to work on the saw is insane.

The cartridges can be used twice. You pull it out and flip it over and you're back in action. So, that's another benefit.

Of course, if you trip it twice, you'll need a new cartridge.
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Offline RobBob

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #189 on: June 16, 2016, 12:59 PM »
Re. Bosch Reaxx table saw - The fence is much better than Saw Stop's.  It is aluminum under the removable plastic, self-aligning, locks front and rear and has a t-track on top that allows for the Jessem table saw clear cut guides to be used (I think - will test them as soon as they arrive).

No special cartridge needed to use a dado blade.

The only negative I have found so far is the saw blade tilt mechanism is difficult to use,  but it is a job site saw and that's why I bought the Beall Tilt Box ii.

Otherwise,  it seems to be the perfect compliment to a track saw for the small shop.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2016, 02:14 PM by RobBob »

Offline jkasten101

  • Posts: 3
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #190 on: September 29, 2016, 12:25 AM »
this is my first post, and in a weird location, but I had heard that Bosch had been sued by sawstop and that all the bosch saws where to be recalled?  maybe im wrong...OH and im glad to be here!

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 1378
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #191 on: September 29, 2016, 07:16 PM »
this is my first post, and in a weird location, but I had heard that Bosch had been sued by sawstop and that all the bosch saws where to be recalled?  maybe im wrong...OH and im glad to be here!

SawStop did sue Bosch.  Saws have not been recalled.  ToolNut has them. 

I have been very satisfied with my Reaxx table saw.  I had a jet 3hp cabinet saw a few years ago that I sold due a shortage of space.  After registering my saw for warranty purposes, Bosch sent me a set of replacement cartridges free of charge.  My saw has never tripped the safety mechanism and I hope it never does.

Here's the latest from Bosch:

"Although Bosch does not normally discuss details of litigation because we feel it is best handled in the context of the legal proceedings, we have seen statements about litigation concerning the Bosch REAXX™ Jobsite Table Saw that give a misleading impression of what has occurred.

At this time legal proceedings are still under way. The International Trade Commission (ITC) will review the initial determination provided by the Administrative Law Judge on Sept. 9, 2016, as well as additional arguments from the parties, before it makes any decision in the matter. The commission’s decision is not expected until early January 2017. Contrary to any other implication, the patent legal proceedings are ongoing and not final.

The Bosch REAXX Jobsite Table Saw is based on patented technology developed by the Power Tool Institute and the engineering team at Robert Bosch Tool Corp. in Mount Prospect, Ill. We believe that advanced REAXX safety technology does not violate any competitor’s intellectual property rights.

It is disappointing that a competitor is continuing its campaign to stop the sale of patented REAXX technology to consumers. The patents asserted against REAXX are based on applications filed more than 15 years ago; Bosch does not believe they apply to REAXX technology. In addition, Bosch believes that if the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office had complete information it would not have issued certain patents in the first place.

Bosch has vigorously defended, and will continue to defend, its ability to make REAXX table saws available in the United States. In addition, Bosch will continue to pursue its own claim of patent infringement against the competitor filed in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Illinois.

The ongoing litigation has no effect on distributors’ ability to buy or sell Bosch REAXX table saws. REAXX cartridges, accessories and service parts are available. The Bosch commitment to provide safe products to users is critical today and in the future."
# # #
« Last Edit: September 30, 2016, 06:59 PM by RobBob »

Offline antss

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #192 on: September 29, 2016, 11:01 PM »
This seems to be a new twist in the arguement.

Bosch claiming that some of SS's Patent(s) shouldn't have been issued because Bosch had previously patented the idea ???

This will get really juicy if thats correct and not just a PR offensive.  Kinda makes me wonder if the judge's latest ruling accounted for that arguement and denied it  or if it's new territority.

Popcorn anyone ?

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4311
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #193 on: September 29, 2016, 11:52 PM »
This seems to be a new twist in the arguement.

Bosch claiming that some of SS's Patent(s) shouldn't have been issued because Bosch had previously patented the idea ???

This will get really juicy if thats correct and not just a PR offensive.  Kinda makes me wonder if the judge's latest ruling accounted for that arguement and denied it  or if it's new territority.

Popcorn anyone ?


Not what it means.

"The patents asserted against REAXX are based on applications filed more than 15 years ago; Bosch does not believe they apply to REAXX technology. In addition, Bosch believes that if the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office had complete information it would not have issued certain patents in the first place."

Offline jimbo51

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #194 on: September 30, 2016, 12:04 AM »
In case someone has not seen recent news, the initial ruling in the lawsuit was in favor of Sawstop.

Offline Cheese

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #195 on: September 30, 2016, 12:17 AM »
In case someone has not seen recent news, the initial ruling in the lawsuit was in favor of Sawstop.

Wow that's interesting...and surprising. Is there a link available?

Offline jimbo51

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #196 on: September 30, 2016, 07:32 AM »
I have not learned link posting yet.  I Googled sawstop lawsuit recent results. Perhaps someone else can help

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #197 on: September 30, 2016, 07:37 AM »
In case someone has not seen recent news, the initial ruling in the lawsuit was in favor of Sawstop.

Wow that's interesting...and surprising. Is there a link available?

It is what reply 191 is referring to.

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/2016/09/13/sawstop-initial-victory-lawsuit-bosch

Tom

Offline RKA

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #198 on: September 30, 2016, 07:43 AM »
In case someone has not seen recent news, the initial ruling in the lawsuit was in favor of Sawstop.

That was the ruling by an Administrative Law Judge in the Bosch quote above.  That quote in its entirety neatly summarizes the current status.  This will carry on for some time, meanwhile Bosch seems to have the ability to continue selling their competing tech.
-Raj

Offline Cheese

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #199 on: September 30, 2016, 10:45 AM »
It is what reply 191 is referring to.

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/2016/09/13/sawstop-initial-victory-lawsuit-bosch

Thanks Tom...

Interesting things to note, from the Power Tool Institute:
...operators are nearly five times more likely to contact the saw blade of a SawStop saw as opposed to the operator of a conventional table saw.
http://www.powertoolinstitute.com/pti-pages/it-table-saw-facts.asp

Bosch's response:
http://www.finehomebuilding.com/2016/09/15/bosch-responds-sawstop-lawsuit

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1905
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #200 on: September 30, 2016, 01:36 PM »
Interesting things to note, from the Power Tool Institute:
...operators are nearly five times more likely to contact the saw blade of a SawStop saw as opposed to the operator of a conventional table saw.
http://www.powertoolinstitute.com/pti-pages/it-table-saw-facts.asp

I'd question that. Number of Sawstop "incidents" is based on the number of cartridges sold. That includes everything: misfire due to wet lumber, miter gauge/fence contact, etc., contacts which would not have led to a serious injury on a conventional saw. In contrast to that the data from conventional saws only includes incidents which ended up in ER.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2016, 02:07 PM by Svar »

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #201 on: September 30, 2016, 02:04 PM »
This drama will be going on for a long time, or at least until the sawstop patents expire.
+1

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #202 on: September 30, 2016, 03:16 PM »
Not what it means.

"The patents asserted against REAXX are based on applications filed more than 15 years ago; Bosch does not believe they apply to REAXX technology. In addition, Bosch believes that if the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office had complete information it would not have issued certain patents in the first place."
[/quote]

I think y'all should read between the lines here 😏

What is or was the "complete information" referred to in this release ?
The judge did not side with SS on all of its claims, but enough to move the claim to the next step. 

While a win for SS , I think it falls short of a "victory" that the linked article claims.

Reaxx are still on sale, and SS hasn't been granted damages, and they sure haven't received a check.  The war continues.

Back to the complete info question.  From my read of the complaint summary and ruling it would seem that the infringement claim (with teeth anyway ) centers around SS's tight definition of flesh sensing tech.  From this release it would seem Bosch is going to challenge the latest  ruling and initial patent on the basis that GAss &co. Shouldn't have been granted a patent on that because Bosch already developed that in another division. 

Anyone CLOSELY following this have a comment on that ? Reading just the headlines won't get it done on this one , sorry gallery.  There are many, many layers to this onion.

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #203 on: September 30, 2016, 03:37 PM »
"Shouldn't have been granted a patent on that because Bosch already developed that in another division."

Where do you get this from?

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #204 on: September 30, 2016, 04:24 PM »
From between the lines.  I could be waaay off base though.  [unsure] [unsure] [unsure]

My understanding is the judge's finding said Bosch infringed because Reaxx uses a "cartridge" that is expended on triggering and  it's system uses "stored energy" to move a component after detecting a fault.  SS's other claims were denied or not addressed.

Let's assume I have the facts mixed up, misinterpreted , or my premise is just wrong-  THEN WHAT is that trial balloon from Bosch trying to say about the Patent Office not having all the correct info ? 

That public argument doesn't say the judge erred; it says in a veiled manner the P.O. screwed up.  My inference from that is that Bosch's contention is SS's tech shouldn't have been patent-able presumably because Bosch already had a system designed somewhere in their system.

Like I already said - this could totally just be a PR move by Bosch to shape public perception.  This is not a simple case of little guy invents the wheel, patents it, and big business come along and copies it and thumbs its nose at little guy.  Management of western conglomerates don't like the risk that would  come with outright copying something like this. Either on the $$$ side if found in violation, or with the brand image of kicking the little guy in the teeth.  The German mentality would allow them to proceed if they thought they'd come up with something different , or already had that tech in house before the other guy.


Offline Rip Van Winkle

  • Posts: 301
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #205 on: September 30, 2016, 04:32 PM »
Some of the Sawstop patents had claims concerning the blade dropping below the table. There have been saws available for decades, that use a circular blade of the type used on a tablesaw, where the blade can be raised above the saw table to cut, and when a handle is released, the blade will automatically drop below the table, either due to a spring, or gravity, or both. The main saw of this design I know of is called a Gjerde saw after the inventor, and is commonly used in Scandinavian countries. I believe there are other designs as well though.

Another of the Sawstop patent claims had to due with the sawblade lowering due to the centrifugal force or momentun of the spinning blade. It would not surprise me if past saw designs, had cutting retractable cutting blades, whose retraction was assisted by the centrifugal force of a spinning blade, even if no patent had specifically been issued related to this. If there was a saw design from the past that could be shown to have this feature, it would count as prior art, and this patent claim would not be considered valid.

I haven't been able to find any more information on the subject, but when the Sawstop patents started to be discussed at length on various forums and magazines, I saw a comment from somebody who claimed that dyring the 1960's or 1970's, there was a tablesaw of some sort shown at a woodworking or industrial show in Germany, whose blade was designed to stop in case the blade contacted the user. Supposedly the woodworkers who saw the saw laughed at it, and nothing more came if it. Unfortunately, I don't speak or read German, so I haven't gone to the effort of trying to see if a German patent was issued for the saw. From the way the claims in the sawstop patents I've read are written, I suspect that there was some sort of prior art that would have prevented a patent from being issued, for the blade stopping simply because of physical contact with the blade.

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #206 on: September 30, 2016, 06:01 PM »
Some thoughts and info from reading about the Bosch.

I don't see how skin sensing by SS is enforceable. We've had touch lamps and other touch sensitive devices long before SS was available.

I believe what the items from the other division are the cartridges that force the blade below the table. They are nitrogen cartridges that come from the Bosch automotive division. The cartridge is used to lock seat belts in an accident.

The Bosch does not jamb the blade or use blade motion to lower the blade. It uses the charge from the cartridge to rapidly lower the blade.

Tom

Offline TSO Products

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #207 on: September 30, 2016, 08:44 PM »
the next time you read media reports that SawStop won a legal victory over BOSCH, you may want to check the newsreleases at SawStop and compare the text. Then ask yourself how much objective journalism was involved in the media report vs. rephrasing or simply copying a corporate newsrelease.
Let me know if you find evidence that I am way off base in this propaganda war which has baely begun.
Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE  plus TPG Parallel Guide -  the MTR-18 Triangle - TDS-10 Dog Stop and GRC-12 Guide Rail Connector; Work Holding solutions plus AXMINSTER UJK in the USA

Offline Holmz

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #208 on: September 30, 2016, 10:12 PM »
...
 Then ask yourself how much objective journalism was involved in the media report vs. rephrasing or simply copying a corporate newsrelease.
Let me know if you find evidence that I am way off base in this propaganda war which has baely begun.
Hans

This applies to just about all journalism these days.

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 465
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #209 on: September 30, 2016, 11:05 PM »

Offline Alex

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #210 on: October 01, 2016, 03:28 AM »
Some of the Sawstop patents had claims concerning the blade dropping below the table. There have been saws available for decades, that use a circular blade of the type used on a tablesaw, where the blade can be raised above the saw table to cut, and when a handle is released, the blade will automatically drop below the table, either due to a spring, or gravity, or both. The main saw of this design I know of is called a Gjerde saw after the inventor, and is commonly used in Scandinavian countries. I believe there are other designs as well though.

Another of the Sawstop patent claims had to due with the sawblade lowering due to the centrifugal force or momentun of the spinning blade. It would not surprise me if past saw designs, had cutting retractable cutting blades, whose retraction was assisted by the centrifugal force of a spinning blade, even if no patent had specifically been issued related to this. If there was a saw design from the past that could be shown to have this feature, it would count as prior art, and this patent claim would not be considered valid.

I haven't been able to find any more information on the subject, but when the Sawstop patents started to be discussed at length on various forums and magazines, I saw a comment from somebody who claimed that dyring the 1960's or 1970's, there was a tablesaw of some sort shown at a woodworking or industrial show in Germany, whose blade was designed to stop in case the blade contacted the user. Supposedly the woodworkers who saw the saw laughed at it, and nothing more came if it. Unfortunately, I don't speak or read German, so I haven't gone to the effort of trying to see if a German patent was issued for the saw. From the way the claims in the sawstop patents I've read are written, I suspect that there was some sort of prior art that would have prevented a patent from being issued, for the blade stopping simply because of physical contact with the blade.

It doesn't matter for the court what was done in other countries, the court only looks at patents filed in the USA because they're only valid there.

-------

When I first heard of the Reaxx saw I thought it was nice to finally get safe saws here in Europe too. SawStop doesn't sell their saws over here, and Bosch is a German company, so I thought they would make them available here too.

But the odd thing is, Bosch has not released them here yet, and I have not heard anything about plans to do so.

So it looks like Bosch made their saw solely with the purpose of breaking SawStop's monopoly in the United States, a saw that was developed to pick a fight, and I'm sure the multi-billion dollar company has looked at all the legal implications with a huge team of lawyers.

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Offline antss

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #211 on: October 01, 2016, 08:29 AM »
I suspect they'll be offered in Europe as soon as they can ramp up production to meet demand.

Tool Nut says he sold out of his first shipment, and looks like in pretty short order too.  Tells me that the thing is popular.  I do agree with the rest of your observations though.

Offline Rip Van Winkle

  • Posts: 301
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #212 on: October 01, 2016, 09:54 AM »
Some of the Sawstop patents had claims concerning the blade dropping below the table. There have been saws available for decades, that use a circular blade of the type used on a tablesaw, where the blade can be raised above the saw table to cut, and when a handle is released, the blade will automatically drop below the table, either due to a spring, or gravity, or both. The main saw of this design I know of is called a Gjerde saw after the inventor, and is commonly used in Scandinavian countries. I believe there are other designs as well though.

Another of the Sawstop patent claims had to due with the sawblade lowering due to the centrifugal force or momentun of the spinning blade. It would not surprise me if past saw designs, had cutting retractable cutting blades, whose retraction was assisted by the centrifugal force of a spinning blade, even if no patent had specifically been issued related to this. If there was a saw design from the past that could be shown to have this feature, it would count as prior art, and this patent claim would not be considered valid.

I haven't been able to find any more information on the subject, but when the Sawstop patents started to be discussed at length on various forums and magazines, I saw a comment from somebody who claimed that dyring the 1960's or 1970's, there was a tablesaw of some sort shown at a woodworking or industrial show in Germany, whose blade was designed to stop in case the blade contacted the user. Supposedly the woodworkers who saw the saw laughed at it, and nothing more came if it. Unfortunately, I don't speak or read German, so I haven't gone to the effort of trying to see if a German patent was issued for the saw. From the way the claims in the sawstop patents I've read are written, I suspect that there was some sort of prior art that would have prevented a patent from being issued, for the blade stopping simply because of physical contact with the blade.

It doesn't matter for the court what was done in other countries, the court only looks at patents filed in the USA because they're only valid there.

-------

When I first heard of the Reaxx saw I thought it was nice to finally get safe saws here in Europe too. SawStop doesn't sell their saws over here, and Bosch is a German company, so I thought they would make them available here too.

But the odd thing is, Bosch has not released them here yet, and I have not heard anything about plans to do so.

So it looks like Bosch made their saw solely with the purpose of breaking SawStop's monopoly in the United States, a saw that was developed to pick a fight, and I'm sure the multi-billion dollar company has looked at all the legal implications with a huge team of lawyers.

You can't patent "prior art", or at least you're not supposed to be able to. If a technology or invention etc., already exists, and information on that invention has been published, or displayed in a public display, or forum, than that "invention" is generally considered no longer patentable. A prior patent for that invention, published in another country, would be considered prior art, especially if that patent was decades old. Some countries may allow, or used to allow, an item or invention, that had been previously patented in another country, to be patented in the second country if no patent had already been filed for the invention in the second country. I believe Japan used to allow this. I'm not sure if Japan still allows this, or whether any other countries still do.

The Gjerde saw I referenced has been manufactured and sold for decades, and was once slso officially sold in the United States, although it was not very common. Other types of saw that use a blade that drops below the table have also been sold in the United States, I recall seeing them in older industrial supply catalogues.

The saw that was supposedly didplayed at the German woodworking show would also count as prior art, especially if there was mention of it in the press or prior patents for the technology. If Bosch could actually find an example of the original saw, then that could be used to challenge the patent Sawstop was issued.

A patent clerk may not have complete knowledge of a subject when he determines whether a patent is valid and will be issued. If nobody has bothered to patent an invention because that invention is consider knowledge, then a patent clerk might find no reference to that invention in patent records and issue a patent by mistake. This is one of the reasons it is possible to challenge a patent.


Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1905
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #213 on: October 01, 2016, 10:15 AM »
Some of the Sawstop patents had claims concerning the blade dropping below the table. There have been saws available for decades, that use a circular blade of the type used on a tablesaw, where the blade can be raised above the saw table to cut, and when a handle is released, the blade will automatically drop below the table, either due to a spring, or gravity, or both. The main saw of this design I know of is called a Gjerde saw after the inventor, and is commonly used in Scandinavian countries. I believe there are other designs as well though.
I don't think that kind of blade drop will count. After all the blade on my saw also drops below the table by using crank.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6612
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #214 on: October 01, 2016, 10:59 AM »
A patent clerk may not have complete knowledge of a subject when he determines whether a patent is valid and will be issued. If nobody has bothered to patent an invention because that invention is consider knowledge, then a patent clerk might find no reference to that invention in patent records and issue a patent by mistake. This is one of the reasons it is possible to challenge a patent.

Very true, and because of this, I feel, this stage is probably the most important part of the process. This is when your attorney needs to have a good working relationship with the examiner so that the exchange of information between the inventor, patent attorney and examiner, can be fairly rapid. The idea is to keep the patent application and all of its nuances and claims, fresh in the minds of everyone involved and it usually results in a more robust patent. This is the stage where information flows in both directions and is your opportunity to supply additional information to the examiner if he/she doesn't have complete knowledge of a subject.

Offline Rip Van Winkle

  • Posts: 301
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #215 on: October 01, 2016, 11:33 AM »
Some of the Sawstop patents had claims concerning the blade dropping below the table. There have been saws available for decades, that use a circular blade of the type used on a tablesaw, where the blade can be raised above the saw table to cut, and when a handle is released, the blade will automatically drop below the table, either due to a spring, or gravity, or both. The main saw of this design I know of is called a Gjerde saw after the inventor, and is commonly used in Scandinavian countries. I believe there are other designs as well though.
I don't think that kind of blade drop will count. After all the blade on my saw also drops below the table by using crank.

The blade on a regular tablesaw raises and lowers by a crank, but will not drop if you let go of the crank. On the Gjerde saws the blade is raised by lifting a lever. To have the blade stay up though, you need to tighten a clamp. If you don't tighten the clamp, the blade will automatically lower. If you are using the saw for crosscuts using the kever to raise the blade thru the work, and you accidentally had your hand in the wrong place and cut into it, you could let go of the lever, and the blade would fall below the table. In this instance your brain would be acting as the flesh sensing technology, and your other hand as the release switch to lower the blade. There are other saws that work the same using a foot lever.


Offline JimD

  • Posts: 404
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #216 on: October 04, 2016, 07:58 AM »
The Bosch press release is a lot more informative than the one by SS.  They explain the process and exactly where we are in that process.  SS tries to pretend that the battle is over.  That's wishful thinking on their part. 

Bosch is claiming that SS patents are not valid (should not have been granted) and that SS infringes it's patents.  I LOVE that.  Says they are ready to battle SS.  Bosch is not just defending itself, it is attacking Gass.  If they win, he could owe them money.  Their patents could disappear.  Gass really wishes it was over. 

I think all woodworkers owe Steve Gass a vote of gratitude for forcing blade sensing technology into the forefront for table saws.  But his tactics to enrich himself are just over the top.  3-8% licensing fee for an adaptation of existing technology is just out-of-line.  Testifying that Ryobi's $100 table saw should have had his technology making Ryobi 100% responsible for injuries that occurred when the user was not using the supplied guard or even the rip fence is, again, totally out-of-line.  So in the aggregate, I will not enrich Gass by buying anything from him and I really want Bosch to eliminate his blockade against other uses of blade sensing technology in wood working equipment. 

When large corporations battle small corporations over patents, guess who typically wins?  Unfortunately, more money means better lawyers which can influence the outcome.  In this case, I am glad it works this way.  Makes it more likely Bosch wins and we can get this technology at a more reasonable price.  Hasn't happened yet, Bosch is pricey too, but I am optimistic that if the threats of a Gass lawsuit go away, the price will fall.

Jim

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #217 on: October 04, 2016, 12:30 PM »
The Bosch press release is a lot more informative than the one by SS.  They explain the process and exactly where we are in that process.  SS tries to pretend that the battle is over.  That's wishful thinking on their part. 

Bosch is claiming that SS patents are not valid (should not have been granted) and that SS infringes it's patents.  I LOVE that.  Says they are ready to battle SS.  Bosch is not just defending itself, it is attacking Gass.  If they win, he could owe them money.  Their patents could disappear.  Gass really wishes it was over. 

I think all woodworkers owe Steve Gass a vote of gratitude for forcing blade sensing technology into the forefront for table saws.  But his tactics to enrich himself are just over the top.  3-8% licensing fee for an adaptation of existing technology is just out-of-line.  Testifying that Ryobi's $100 table saw should have had his technology making Ryobi 100% responsible for injuries that occurred when the user was not using the supplied guard or even the rip fence is, again, totally out-of-line.  So in the aggregate, I will not enrich Gass by buying anything from him and I really want Bosch to eliminate his blockade against other uses of blade sensing technology in wood working equipment. 

When large corporations battle small corporations over patents, guess who typically wins?  Unfortunately, more money means better lawyers which can influence the outcome.  In this case, I am glad it works this way.  Makes it more likely Bosch wins and we can get this technology at a more reasonable price.  Hasn't happened yet, Bosch is pricey too, but I am optimistic that if the threats of a Gass lawsuit go away, the price will fall.

Jim
so Bosch's profits are better than SawStops profits.  [blink]

SawStop took a big risk and proved there is a good market for the technology, now Bosch wants that market and their solution is to destroy the people who brought it to market in the first place, and some applaud that because the inventor was an ardent proponent of his safety technology. His early tactics failed as they should have and his licensing fees are his business, others can choose to pay it or not, that's their business to decide how much they value their customers safety. So he became a saw maker and by most counts they are great saws, but still people hate on him and seem to like the idea that he be destroyed by a giant. I have a hard time understanding the hate.
+1

Offline RobBob

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #218 on: October 04, 2016, 12:54 PM »
Bosch is not out to destroy SawStop or the people that brought it to market.  Competition is good for consumers.  Competition makes products better and keeps prices down.  Bosch merely wants the opportunity to compete with SawStop in the free market.  Then, it is ultimately up to consumers to make their choice.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2016, 01:00 PM by RobBob »

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #219 on: October 04, 2016, 01:59 PM »
Bosch is not out to destroy SawStop or the people that brought it to market.  Competition is good for consumers.  Competition makes products better and keeps prices down.  Bosch merely wants the opportunity to compete with SawStop in the free market.  Then, it is ultimately up to consumers to make their choice.

If Bosch is attacking SawStops patents and succeeds it will destroy SS because that is fundamental to their business at this point. Without patent protection other larger manufacturers will kill SS who only makes table saws. Their days may be numbered regardless since their patents will expire at some point, but at least there is the opportunity in that time to make a profit and build the brand.
+1

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 2280
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #220 on: October 05, 2016, 04:51 PM »
Some thoughts and info from reading about the Bosch.

I don't see how skin sensing by SS is enforceable. We've had touch lamps and other touch sensitive devices long before SS was available.

I believe what the items from the other division are the cartridges that force the blade below the table. They are nitrogen cartridges that come from the Bosch automotive division. The cartridge is used to lock seat belts in an accident.

The Bosch does not jamb the blade or use blade motion to lower the blade. It uses the charge from the cartridge to rapidly lower the blade.

Tom
  Pyrotechnic Cartridges are definitely in modern vehicles since you want to tighten the belt on an occupant in a crash and prevent them from sliding under the belt towards the floor as well[called seat belt submarining]
 The cartridge fires, the seat belt tightens and you get to replace the whole assembly after a crash since web stretching of the belt material is a very real possibility along with the one-time usage of that cartridge.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2016, 11:53 AM by leakyroof »
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline JimD

  • Posts: 404
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #221 on: October 09, 2016, 08:51 AM »
Paul,

I don't think I hate Steve Gass, I just find his tactics totally unacceptable.  To argue to the regulators that his technology should be mandated on all table saws - with the obvious goal of forcing all manufacturers to pay him his outrageous fee is extremely aggressive and unacceptable to me.  I will avoid providing my money to a person that does this.  The fact that he set such an outrageous fee is my business too since it helped keep his technology unavailable to me without buying it from Gass.  I'd like to see similar technology on other tools too.  But as long as Gass keeps threatening anybody who uses flesh contact technology, we will not see usage expand.  Flesh contacting technology was already used to control lights when Gass started filing patents.  I don't know if that will be considered prior art but it might.  Gass adapted the flesh contacting technology of lights and the rapid deployment of airbags to create the table saw safety device.  I appreciate the fact that he did this but I wish he made it available on a more reasonable basis.

I would also rather enrich Bosch.  I have several Bosch tools that work great.  I bought them because I thought they were the right combination of price and capability.  I didn't buy them because Bosch developed a great new technology that they refused to reasonably make available to others.  If Bosch used the same tactic as SS, I wouldn't buy from them either.

It is not the person I object to, it is his tactics.

Jim

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1929
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #222 on: October 09, 2016, 01:27 PM »
For me, the point is that I want to buy the best, safest, highest quality tools available for the money. If the Bosch table saw had been available with the blade safety mechanism when I needed a table saw, I would have picked the one that seemed to be the best for the money at the time. But, when I wanted a jobsite saw, Sawstop was the only one on the market at that time with a blade brake. Never sorry I bought it though. I don't always agree with the way tool companies do business or how they advertise, but if they have a great tool and it's a tool I need, I won't hesitate to buy it. I don't really understand taking anything into account other than the tool itself, its quality, its value, and its track record as a tool.
Randy

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #223 on: October 09, 2016, 03:19 PM »
The number of people willing to "weigh-in" on this subject (not necessarily in this thread) seems to vastly outnumber the people who understand the facts. Which side they support is usually more political  than rational.

Offline RobBob

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #224 on: October 09, 2016, 04:56 PM »
@Michael Kellough  What are the facts that people do not understand?

Offline Rip Van Winkle

  • Posts: 301
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #225 on: October 09, 2016, 05:27 PM »
A quick search of patents, showed several or more patents, for machine safety systems, designed to automatically stop machines, or tools, if someone, or something, got too close to, or touched, an area or piece of a machine they weren't supposed to or which could cause a safety problem. These patents specifically mention detecting changes in capacitance being used to detect the safety issue. A number of those patents predate the Gass Sawstop patents. One if the patents specifically mentioned power saw blades. Another of those patents actually mentioned the lamps with the capacitance switch that has previously been mentioned in this thread. The Gass sawstop patents seemed like they were trying to split very fine hairs, and the former patents may be the reasons. The former patents may also be some of the reasons Bosch feels the Sawstop patents should not have been granted in the first place. A number of patents were also filed by various power tool manufacturers, and the Power Tool Institute, after Gass recieved his Sawstop patents, and these may be Related to one of the other complaints Bosch made concerning Sawstop.

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 465
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #226 on: October 09, 2016, 06:06 PM »
Sawstop was the only company willing to actually complete the research and development of this type of saw. Bosch may have had the capability many years ago, but they did not pursue the technology until Sawstop was a significant success.

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #227 on: October 09, 2016, 10:16 PM »
a lawyer splitting hairs ?  Really ?  [huh]

SS could and likely will survive even if the case goes against them.  Their cabinet saws are arguably the best around even without the safety feature.  If their jobsite saw isn't up to snuff, then they'll have to adapt. Just like most businesses do when selling machines.  Soon their patent will expire anyway and the floodgates will open forcing a marketplace driven response- not a regulatory one.

Think how much more $$$ SS would have made if they'd started out producing a great saw instead of just trying to shakedown the industry as their first revenue producing idea.


Online Kevin D.

  • Posts: 964
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #228 on: October 11, 2016, 09:11 PM »
For those who have legal backgrounds or just can't fall asleep, here all the legal fillings and court transcripts etc....

https://www.docketalarm.com/cases/International_Trade_Commission/337-965/Certain_Table_Saws_Incorporating_Active_Injury_Mitigation_Technology_and_Components_Thereof/

Have fun!
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Offline JimD

  • Posts: 404
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #229 on: October 11, 2016, 09:28 PM »
I didn't read the pleadings (thanks for posting) but I did google up the lead lawyers for both sides.  The resume of the Bosch lawyer looks a lot better to me than the SawStop.  But I already expected that so maybe I'm reading things into it.  The Bosch lawyer is from NYC and the SawStop from Washington DC.  Even if I'm right, the better credentialed lawyer doesn't always win but I think it helps.

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #230 on: October 11, 2016, 09:40 PM »
Elections are generally more of a popularity contest.

The legal findings should be more based upon facts, previous legal precedence, and persuasive arguments.

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #231 on: October 17, 2016, 11:09 AM »
....If Bosch used the same tactic as SS, I wouldn't buy from them either.

It is not the person I object to, it is his tactics.

Jim

Do you truly think that a company like Bosch hasn't at some point in time supported legislative efforts that helps their bottom line?
+1

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #232 on: October 19, 2016, 08:31 PM »
^^^^^^
don't know, do you have any facts to support that assertion ?

It's common knowledge that SS petitioned the government to mandate this tech on ALL table saws. not just those used in public schools, federal projects, or by government agencies- things paid for with government $$$. 

I think many people have a real problem with the government telling them that can't use a $99 table saw in their own garage in rural Montana or Ohio. 

Akin to having them tell you MUST have cooktop burners that won't burn you, or a knife that won't cut you.   What's next ? Maybe a bathtub that's drown proof.

Life is inherently risky - accept the responsibility.

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #233 on: October 19, 2016, 11:12 PM »
^^^^^^
don't know, do you have any facts to support that assertion ?

It's common knowledge that SS petitioned the government to mandate this tech on ALL table saws. not just those used in public schools, federal projects, or by government agencies- things paid for with government $$$. 

I think many people have a real problem with the government telling them that can't use a $99 table saw in their own garage in rural Montana or Ohio. 

Akin to having them tell you MUST have cooktop burners that won't burn you, or a knife that won't cut you.   What's next ? Maybe a bathtub that's drown proof.

Life is inherently risky - accept the responsibility.

Why do you think Bosch spends a bundle each year lobbying politicians?

http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/clientsum.php?id=D000056189

And I'm sure this is just a coincidence http://www.bosch-climate.us/files/Senator_Shaheen_Visit_to_Bosch_T_May_8_2015T_US_US.pdf

Or how about their trade memberships, here's a few I could dig up that are active in legislative advocacy

https://www.oesa.org/become-member/member-list
https://www.ana.net/members/list

Oh and google "Robert Bosch llc patent lawsuits" and you'll see they are quite busy in that dept as both plaintiff and defendant.

They aren't saints, this is how big business works. Grease, mutual back scratching, more grease, fill the courts with lawsuits. Anything for an edge.

As for govt forcing products for safety on the public, it happens all the time. Seat belts, air bags, motorcycle helmets, gun locks and dissabled pool lifts are just a few that came to mind. Who do you think pushes for this stuff? Most certainly the makers of these products or their surrogates are eager to lend their support.

Are folks so naive to this?
+1

Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 9007
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #234 on: October 20, 2016, 11:05 AM »
Skirting on the edge of politics. Please make sure it doesn't turn down the political road.

Seth

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #235 on: October 20, 2016, 07:21 PM »
Skirting on the edge of politics. Please make sure it doesn't turn down the political road cul-de-sac.

Seth

@SRSemenza Corrected ^the misspelling^ [big grin]


It is interesting that SS did not offer some licensing of the technology. It does go against the model of producing saws, but seems like it would have been a money maker.

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 6130
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #236 on: October 20, 2016, 07:25 PM »
Skirting on the edge of politics. Please make sure it doesn't turn down the political road cul-de-sac.

Seth

@SRSemenza Corrected ^the misspelling^ [big grin]


It is interesting that SS did not offer some licensing of the technology. It does go against the model of producing saws, but seems like it would have been a money maker.

SS offered licensing of their system, from what I've read, it bordered on an insane amount per unit.

Tom

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #237 on: October 20, 2016, 07:54 PM »
.......and the offer was politely declined.   The marketplace spoke, and instead of adjusting pricing like many business; SS instead went to get a 2x4 and try to beat them over the head with it.

Paul - those are all outa the Automotive group which is separate from the Tool division - which is what I had in my mind while discussing.  But I will defer that you're technically correct. 

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 465
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #238 on: October 20, 2016, 11:04 PM »
What was the insane licensing amount? I remember reading 5-8% royalty. Is that an insane amount in this type of situation? A new and different safety device certainly should warrant some premium over a product without it.

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #239 on: October 20, 2016, 11:51 PM »
What was the insane licensing amount? I remember reading 5-8% royalty. Is that an insane amount in this type of situation? A new and different safety device certainly should warrant some premium over a product without it.

Also what would that be a % of? Everything is negotiable
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 01:37 AM by Paul G »
+1

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6612
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #240 on: October 21, 2016, 12:51 AM »
Everything is negotiable

You're correct, everything in life is negotiable until of course you come upon an entity that will not negotiate. That's the rub...the very definition of negotiations is compromise on both sides, without compromise, there will be no negotiations. 

I could point out several current world events as examples.................but I won't.


« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 01:42 AM by Cheese »

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Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #241 on: October 21, 2016, 01:54 AM »
Everything is negotiable

You're correct, everything in life is negotiable until of course you come upon an entity that will not negotiate. That's the rub...the very definition of negotiations is compromise on both sides, without compromise, there will be no negotiations.

Negotiation doesn't equal compromise, but regardless were you a party to any royalty negotiations with SS? I know I wasn't. I have no idea what terms were proposed by whom, who here does? I hear all this talk about excessive royalty charges but what exactly were they? Let's assume it was as high as 10% retail price, is a finger worth an extra $100 on a $1000 table saw? My guess is other makers like Bosch didn't want to try but now that SS proved that people are willing to pay extra for a well made saw with the added feature, Bosch wants in on the action while cuting out SS in the process. That's business.
+1

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6612
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #242 on: October 21, 2016, 02:52 AM »
Negotiation doesn't equal compromise, but regardless were you a party to any royalty negotiations with SS? I know I wasn't. I have no idea what terms were proposed by whom, who here does? I hear all this talk about excessive royalty charges but what exactly were they? Let's assume it was as high as 10% retail price, is a finger worth an extra $100 on a $1000 table saw?

From Wikipedia...Negotiation is a dialogue between two or more people or parties intended to reach a beneficial outcome.

It is aimed to resolve points of difference, to gain advantage for an individual or collective, or to craft outcomes to satisfy various interests. It is often conducted by putting forward a position and making small concessions (as in compromises) to achieve an agreement. The degree to which the negotiating parties trust each other to implement the negotiated solution is a major factor in determining whether negotiations are successful. Negotiation is not a zero-sum game; if there is no cooperation, the negotiation will fail.

The last highlighted point in blue was the point of my post. Negotiation works unless of coarse you don't want to negotiate, then you're time negotiating with SS is just p_ssing in the wind.

Rather than assuming it was as high as 10%...lets just use the real number which was 8%...which is awful high when you consider that the lower priced saws are essentially already commodity items and the additional 8% would effectively eliminate the profit margin. 

Of all the press I've read, no one has said that the Saw Stop saw is a flawed product, it's just the scorched earth approach that Mr. SS used in trying to mandate that his solution become THE ONLY industry standard, goes against the grain of free enterprise and human nature. Everyone is entitled to their fair share of the profits but the only facet we've really seen so far is the bully on the block...the my way or the highway...the get out of my way...or I'll see you in court approach. [sad] [sad] [sad]
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 03:01 AM by Cheese »

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4311
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #243 on: October 21, 2016, 09:55 AM »
The trouble with a bunch of guys discussing this subject is that so much of what we write is third or forth hand hearsay colored by our own bias. My bias is in favor of safety but I don't want to pay any more than necessary either.

One bit of third hand stuff I have not read lately (been reading about this for about 20 years?) is that the traditional saw manufactures were advised by their lawyers to avoid the Sawstop tech even if it was given to them for free because to adapt the tech would be equivalent to admitting that the existing saws were unsafe and they'd then be wide open to liability claims.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6612
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #244 on: October 21, 2016, 10:32 AM »
...the traditional saw manufactures were advised by their lawyers to avoid the Sawstop tech even if it was given to them for free because to adapt the tech would be equivalent to admitting that the existing saws were unsafe and they'd then be wide open to liability claims.

Well that's certainly an interesting turn of events.  [eek]  I wonder if that's because the US society has changed so much with all this litigation over the years?

I once owned a used 1958 Chev Impala with vacuum wipers and no windshield washer, the windshield washer was optional and seat belts hadn't been invented yet. I also purchased a new 1966 Buick Lesabre and GM offered a pair of front "lap" belts as an option for $5 or $6.
Think of the type of cars we'd be driving now if the automotive attorneys acted in the same way as the saw manufacturers' attorneys.

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #245 on: October 21, 2016, 10:51 AM »
Negotiation doesn't equal compromise, but regardless were you a party to any royalty negotiations with SS? I know I wasn't. I have no idea what terms were proposed by whom, who here does? I hear all this talk about excessive royalty charges but what exactly were they? Let's assume it was as high as 10% retail price, is a finger worth an extra $100 on a $1000 table saw?

From Wikipedia...Negotiation is a dialogue between two or more people or parties intended to reach a beneficial outcome.

It is aimed to resolve points of difference, to gain advantage for an individual or collective, or to craft outcomes to satisfy various interests. It is often conducted by putting forward a position and making small concessions (as in compromises) to achieve an agreement. The degree to which the negotiating parties trust each other to implement the negotiated solution is a major factor in determining whether negotiations are successful. Negotiation is not a zero-sum game; if there is no cooperation, the negotiation will fail.

The last highlighted point in blue was the point of my post. Negotiation works unless of coarse you don't want to negotiate, then you're time negotiating with SS is just p_ssing in the wind.

Rather than assuming it was as high as 10%...lets just use the real number which was 8%...which is awful high when you consider that the lower priced saws are essentially already commodity items and the additional 8% would effectively eliminate the profit margin. 

Of all the press I've read, no one has said that the Saw Stop saw is a flawed product, it's just the scorched earth approach that Mr. SS used in trying to mandate that his solution become THE ONLY industry standard, goes against the grain of free enterprise and human nature. Everyone is entitled to their fair share of the profits but the only facet we've really seen so far is the bully on the block...the my way or the highway...the get out of my way...or I'll see you in court approach. [sad] [sad] [sad]

Where do you get the 8% figure and what is it a % of? Net sales...wholesale or retail? Was the details of these negotiations made public?

As for negotiation, it's a discussion, doesn't mean I must bend on price, there's other aspects to an agreement that have to be ironed out as well. Have dealt with it many a time in business. Client needs X, we sell X at a given price, we negotiate on delivery dates, packaging specs, payment terms and other details. Client has needs met and we still sell X at the same price.

My way or the highway is SOP in our culture. Govt mandated building codes and vehicle safety and fuel economy regulations are two examples where we are dictated what we do and buy. I don't like air bags, never did. Don't like bombs going off in my or my family's face. The fact of the mass recalls due to deaths illustrates my point. But good luck finding a new car without these bombs in them, it's the law. The govt and bureaucrats said my way or the highway and I'm stuck with a world of vehicles engineered with the assumption they will have bombs in them. It increases the cost of vehicles as well. I don't like the approach but no one cares what I think.

Many folks here deal with many building codes that make no sense as technology advances. Or it's aesthetic regulations about roof materials, paint color or any of a myriad of things the govt sticks their noses into. It often increases cost, but we do what we do because it's what some book and bureaucrats say we must do. I often don't like it, but no one cares what I think.

I understand folks not liking Mr SS trying to force his tech legislatively. He failed and I'm glad it failed. So he took the better (and far more risky) approach of bring the technology to market in SS saws. He (eventually) did the right thing, and many people use their great saws and I'm sure many fingers have been saved. But apparently some folks want to hold an eternal grudge. That's their prerogative of course, but if I operated that way in life over what's forced on me I'd be living a miserable existence every time I get in a car, deal with a building inspector, or get treated like a criminal when I fly.

This whole SS vs Bosch thing will now play out in the courts and in the marketplace, at least until Bosch is forced by the court to stop selling (if ever). At that point they may settle and SS gets a royalty. If it comes to that it seems a whole lot of time, legal fees and fingers were wasted.
+1

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 866
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #246 on: October 21, 2016, 11:29 AM »
It is what reply 191 is referring to.

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/2016/09/13/sawstop-initial-victory-lawsuit-bosch

Thanks Tom...

Interesting things to note, from the Power Tool Institute:
...operators are nearly five times more likely to contact the saw blade of a SawStop saw as opposed to the operator of a conventional table saw.
http://www.powertoolinstitute.com/pti-pages/it-table-saw-facts.asp

Bosch's response:
http://www.finehomebuilding.com/2016/09/15/bosch-responds-sawstop-lawsuit

Whether someone was 1x or 5x or 10x as likely to contact the saw blade is irrelevant, as the outcomes of a SawStop versus a conventional saw accident is so drastically different that it does not matter.

I am a 25+ year user of tablesaws of which the last 10 were SawStops. I have had one real trigger and and zero false ones. Many people speak of misfires like they are a regular occurrence. I don't run wet wood, but if you do there is a setting for that.

Offline JimD

  • Posts: 404
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #247 on: October 22, 2016, 02:49 PM »
i agree that our conversation is underinformed, including specifically my commets.  But I think we all need to remember that a wide range of possibilities including Saw Stops patents being declaired invalid and SS being held in violation of Bosch's patents are still possible.  Patents just take awhile to settle and are often settled by the litagants rather than the court. 

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4311
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #248 on: October 22, 2016, 04:34 PM »
Just saw the PBS (USA non-profit Public Broadcasting System) program on Nicola Tesla. It wasn't until after Tesla died (Marconi died several years earlier) that it was determined that Marconi's patents were invalid and that Tesla should be credited with inventing radio.

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #249 on: October 22, 2016, 09:23 PM »
The SS royalty % has been discussed on other forums and one the participants is an employee of one of the approached manufacturers.  He said their business could not sustain the royalty cost as pitched because it was too high.  There appeared to be no negotiation whatsoever.
 
I still haven't received an answer to whether or not the % even included the brake system. I suspect it did not, so licensee cost would have been further increased per unit plus whatever R&D $$$ they had to spend to make the brake themselves and incorporate it into their saw trunion and arbor.

And have y'all thought about the vast discrepancy in real $$$ that a percentage arrangement would have on a $99 home center saw vs. say a $10,000 slider from a Euro manuf. for the same brake ?

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1905
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #250 on: October 22, 2016, 09:56 PM »
He said their business could not sustain the royalty cost as pitched because it was too high.
Transfer that cost to consumer and see if the product sells. If not, keep making regular saws. What's the problem? Its not like there were competitors at the time.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2016, 10:10 PM by Svar »

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #251 on: October 22, 2016, 10:14 PM »
He represented a co. that doesn't sell shiploads of saws and knows their customer very well and what they'll spend. 

The problem is , the market place doesn't overwhelmingly think a saw brake is worth the $$$ charged.  Certainly there is a market for it, but folks have gotten along with out for a hundred years?  And the overwhelming majority of users all have ten fingers.

Food for thought:  Flying is statistically safer than driving.  Should our government outlaw driving so less people get hurt and killed each year ?


Offline pixelated

  • Posts: 185
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #253 on: February 09, 2017, 09:00 AM »
That's very disappointing news.

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1052
  • aka @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #254 on: February 09, 2017, 09:26 AM »
It will be interesting to see how this will further unfold.

I'm very curious to see once and if that ban is confirmed if Bosch will withdraw or if they will try to come to an agreement/settlement with SawStop.

Question for those who know about the law stuff ;) : If that ban is confirmed, would it even make a difference if Bosch reached an agreement/settlement with SawStop? (Given they would want to go this route at all) Or is this like a train that is gone - and there's nothing that can be done to lift the ban prior to February 2022?

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4311
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #255 on: February 09, 2017, 09:35 AM »
"Owners of REAXX table saws will still be able to purchase cartridges and have their saws serviced indefinitely because the cartridges are produced in the U.S. - so if you own one, or are thinking of buying one within the 60 day period, you are safe to continue using it and purchase one without worry that it will eventually become inoperable or obsolete."

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #256 on: February 09, 2017, 09:38 AM »
A small company gets a win over a giant.
+1

Offline WarnerConstCo.

  • Posts: 4078
    • Warner Mill Works
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #257 on: February 09, 2017, 10:04 AM »
A small company gets a win over a giant.

Win?  Gass is a douche

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1905
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #258 on: February 09, 2017, 10:24 AM »
What a disappointment. Bosch's is a better technology in my opinion.

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 866
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #259 on: February 09, 2017, 11:57 AM »
That's really disappointing and pretty much assures no other company will have a go at creating a safer saw.

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 1378
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #260 on: February 09, 2017, 12:55 PM »
I thought SawStop's patents were going to expire soon?  Wouldn't that mean this whole thing is moot?

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 465
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #261 on: February 09, 2017, 03:33 PM »
Any company can try to develop a safer saw providing that they do not infringe on the Sawstop patents. It appears that the patents are in force until 2022.

It really does not matter how much Sawstop is disliked, this is a legal issue about patent rights. The Bosch implementation may have been better, but the ruling says that they infringed on Sawstop patents, so they do not have the legal right to sell their saw in the US.

The interesting question will be the Bosch response if their appeals are eventually denied. If Bosch is truly interested in providing a superior, safer saw, then they will work out a royalty agreement with Sawstop.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6189
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #262 on: February 09, 2017, 03:48 PM »
A small company gets a win over a giant.

I read it more as domestic gets a win over import.

Offline WarnerConstCo.

  • Posts: 4078
    • Warner Mill Works
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #263 on: February 09, 2017, 03:56 PM »
A small company gets a win over a giant.

I read it more as domestic gets a win over import.

Saw stops are not US made.

Offline bobfog

  • Posts: 838
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #264 on: February 09, 2017, 04:05 PM »
A small company gets a win over a giant.

I read it more as domestic gets a win over import.

Saw stops are not US made.

They're US headquartered though. i.e. an American company.

This is a shame, looks like the underdog was favoured over the big dog and unfortunately the losers are the tool-buying public.




Offline WarnerConstCo.

  • Posts: 4078
    • Warner Mill Works
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #265 on: February 09, 2017, 04:25 PM »
A small company gets a win over a giant.

I read it more as domestic gets a win over import.

Saw stops are not US made.

They're US headquartered though. i.e. an American company.

This is a shame, looks like the underdog was favoured over the big dog and unfortunately the losers are the tool-buying public.

Still not US made. I may be inclined to cut the guy some slack if he stepped up and made them here as well.


Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #266 on: February 09, 2017, 04:35 PM »
A small company gets a win over a giant.

Win?  Gass is a douche

Peoples opinion of the inventor has nothing to do with a small company successfully defending their intelectual property from the interloping giant.
+1

Offline WarnerConstCo.

  • Posts: 4078
    • Warner Mill Works
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #267 on: February 09, 2017, 04:40 PM »
A small company gets a win over a giant.

Win?  Gass is a douche

Peoples opinion of the inventor has nothing to do with a small company successfully defending their intelectual property from the interloping giant.

Sorry, other than its a safety feature on a TS, they really share no technical similarities.
Just another example of his douchiness. 

Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #268 on: February 09, 2017, 05:42 PM »
"Owners of REAXX table saws will still be able to purchase cartridges and have their saws serviced indefinitely because the cartridges are produced in the U.S. - so if you own one, or are thinking of buying one within the 60 day period, you are safe to continue using it and purchase one without worry that it will eventually become inoperable or obsolete."

That article seems odd.  I have no real idea, but, it sounds like the ITC would have no say over the cartridges produced in the U.S., but it would seem that if the cartridges represent infrigement, then some U.S. entity would be able to prevent their sale unless Bosch makes some sort of agreement with Sawstop to allow their sale.

I wish the article would explain itself better.


Offline bkharman

  • Posts: 1998
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #269 on: February 09, 2017, 06:11 PM »
A small company gets a win over a giant.

Win?  Gass is a douche

Peoples opinion of the inventor has nothing to do with a small company successfully defending their intelectual property from the interloping giant.

May be true but I would (and have) gladly spend more money for a high quality slider like a Hammer or such just so a DB like Gass doesn't get my money. Small or large business owners that treat people like numbers and dollars pay for that mentality one way or another.

Disheartening new indeed.

Cheers. Bryan.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1905
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #270 on: February 09, 2017, 06:41 PM »
Peoples opinion of the inventor has nothing to do with a small company successfully defending their intelectual property from the interloping giant.
I neither like nor dislike the inventor. Patents are to protect intellectual rights while still allowing progress by others. It's a delicate balance. From my limited knowledge of the technologies involved that balance has not been achieved. Hence, we are stuck with an inferior product from a monopolist.

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 465
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #271 on: February 09, 2017, 07:01 PM »
"Sorry, other than its a safety feature on a TS, they really share no technical similarities.
Just another example of his douchiness. "

The whole point of the patent case was about the safety feature. An inventor has a right to defend his patent even if you do not like him.


Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1905
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #272 on: February 09, 2017, 07:09 PM »
"Sorry, other than its a safety feature on a TS, they really share no technical similarities.
Just another example of his douchiness. "

The whole point of the patent case was about the safety feature. An inventor has a right to defend his patent even if you do not like him.

And that's the problem. Imagine brothers Wright patenting motor powered flight regardless of the technical solution involved.

Offline Motown

  • Posts: 200
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #273 on: February 09, 2017, 07:19 PM »
It took me over a year to decide on which cabinet saw I should purchase, literally agonized over it while wondering how such a fun purchase could be so painful. Sawstop was absolutely one of the two saws that I was considering but I decided to go with a European sliding saw. My logic was that there were other safety factors (kickback) to also consider.

With that said, I've had my saw throw a piece of plywood into my chest (hurt and bruised like heck) because I forgot to re-attach the splitter. I am also convinced that the ability to slide the fence toward me, when I am cutting material, has absolutely prevented kickback a number of times..which would have been highly likely with any American style fence.

My point is this: Sawstop has done a great job of building a quality saw and an even better job of marketing their blade technology. But these conversations seem to be dominated by the blade technology when there other safety considerations. Bottom line, there are still choices in the market and you can always decide which saw is best for you.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 10:39 PM by Motown »

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #274 on: February 09, 2017, 07:29 PM »
A small company gets a win over a giant.

Win?  Gass is a douche

Peoples opinion of the inventor has nothing to do with a small company successfully defending their intelectual property from the interloping giant.

May be true but I would (and have) gladly spend more money for a high quality slider like a Hammer or such just so a DB like Gass doesn't get my money. Small or large business owners that treat people like numbers and dollars pay for that mentality one way or another.

Disheartening new indeed.

Cheers. Bryan.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Most companies treat their customers like numbers and dollars. And when they have patents to defend their intelectual property they have a right to defend it and their business. Bosch, Apple, Microsoft, whoever, many build their products around their patents or ones they license, nothing new there. My consumers desire for a 3rd party iPhone doesn't justify a 3rd party to infringe on Apples technology.
+1

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #275 on: February 09, 2017, 07:46 PM »
"Sorry, other than its a safety feature on a TS, they really share no technical similarities.
Just another example of his douchiness. "

The whole point of the patent case was about the safety feature. An inventor has a right to defend his patent even if you do not like him.

And that's the problem. Imagine brothers Wright patenting motor powered flight regardless of the technical solution involved.

I'd imagine they could have, might have built a fabulous business if the did and we'd still have modern planes today. That's the nature of a utility patent, as the USPTO describes it: "In general terms, a “utility patent” protects the way an article is used and works..." https://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/s1502.html

Is a REAXX used substantively differently than a sawstop? No, not really in regards to you touch the blade when spinning and a safety mechanism drops the blade and you're spared cutting your finger off.
+1

Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 935
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #276 on: February 09, 2017, 07:52 PM »
And that's the problem. Imagine brothers Wright patenting motor powered flight regardless of the technical solution involved.

They did and it held back the development of aviation in the US until the war when the government stepped in and corrected the situation.

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 465
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #277 on: February 09, 2017, 07:56 PM »
https://www.law360.com/articles/835248/ptab-got-brake-patent-invalidity-wrong-judge-says

The discussion in the above article shows that the Wright brothers argument is not valid. It appears that the basic safety concept was covered in a 1974 patent. However, the details of how to make it work quickly enough to avoid injury to a finger was the basis of the Sawstop patent. It was not just a use patent.


Offline RussellS

  • Posts: 278
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #278 on: February 09, 2017, 10:27 PM »
and unfortunately the losers are the tool-buying public.

Agree with this.  I'd love this safety feature to be on all saws going forward.  But I want the functionality and safety of a European sliding saw more than the SawStop safety feature on a US  style saw.  Someday eventually a saw will have both a European sliding table and the SawStop safety feature.

Online Kevin D.

  • Posts: 964
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #279 on: February 09, 2017, 10:38 PM »
Funny, I don't recall the seatbelt manufacturers going after the airbag manufacturers years ago.  Isn't that what the douche is doing?
Kapex, CT-SYS, SYS-Cart, Pro 5 Sander, CT36AC, TS75, MFT 1080, MF-SYS/2, PS300 EQ-Plus, Parallel Guides Set, LR32 SYS, RO 150FEQ-Plus, OF1400 EQ Plus, DOMINO 500 Q-Plus,  Domino XL, MFK 700 EQ-Set, FS-SYS/2, CT22 w/hose storage, D36HW-RS-Plus, FS 1900/2, FS 3000/2, FS 1080/2-LR32, FS 1400/2-LR32, Gecko, Festool Floor Mat, Festool Stein, Multi-Tool, tape measure, large and small Festool floor mats (foam rubber).

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #280 on: February 09, 2017, 10:44 PM »
Assuming Bosch's ITC appeal is denied and they fail to gain relief in the appeal courts - I'd expect Bosch to focus marketing and delivery of Reaxx saws in the Euro markets. Possibly with some refinements along the way.

At the start of the next decade they'll return to the U.S. with the saw and offer it at a fraction of its current selling price sounding the death knell for SawStop's jobsite version. It wouldn't be inconceivable for them to snap up a stationary tool maker just so they could then offer a cabinet saw to further compete with SS.

With the now likely ban of Reaxx looming , I don't think we've seen even a fraction of Bosch's marketing efforts devoted to it. Think about the market share possible when they really take the gloves off.  Heck, they could even give away the tech to all other manuf. thus making it the industry standard while maintaining a stranglehold on the cartridges and still profiting.

 [popcorn]
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 10:48 PM by antss »

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #281 on: February 10, 2017, 12:04 AM »
Funny, I don't recall the seatbelt manufacturers going after the airbag manufacturers years ago.  Isn't that what the douche is doing?

No, in table saws that would be two different safety devices like comparing the blade brake and the blade cover. Both provide measures of user safety but in very different ways to the user.
+1

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6612
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #282 on: February 10, 2017, 03:02 AM »
This battle is not yet over...a global supplier like Bosch will not invest this much capital into investment castings, plastic injection molds, manufacturing centers, production lines, manufacturing assembly quality control instructions/directives and quality assurance kiosks just to say.........ya...well...we give up...you won!

The good news is that Bosch clearly has the more modern approach to the missing fingers dilemma.

SS, while the early adopter in the save-my-digits program, and we need to honor/respect their first emergence...the present SS technology is the equivalent to driving around in a car with an overhead crane attached above and then dropping 30# cement blocks in front of the tires when you need to stop.   

Effective...yes, but relatively crude compared to what the Bosch technology produces. All systems evolve, and we need to embrace the enhanced capabilities of new systems yet to come rather than to legislate against them especially when operator safety is at the center of the discussion as SS has done in the past. Shame...Shame...Shame.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 12:15 AM by Cheese »

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #283 on: February 10, 2017, 10:33 PM »
And don't think for a minute Bosch isn't going to play the made in America card for this cartridge module and all the jobs they bring with that and all their other divisions plus the tax revenue they produce here on their other operations and infrastructure holdings.

- vs -

SawStop's couple dozen employees, offshore manuf. and single digit office/warehouse locations.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6612
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #284 on: February 10, 2017, 10:48 PM »
- vs -
SawStop's couple dozen employees, offshore manuf. and single digit office/warehouse locations.

Especially in 2017...

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #285 on: February 10, 2017, 11:58 PM »
- vs -
SawStop's couple dozen employees, offshore manuf. and single digit office/warehouse locations.

Especially in 2017...

The true test is, "Do they answer the phone?"

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6612
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #286 on: February 11, 2017, 12:19 AM »
The true test is, "Do they answer the phone?"

And then there was radio silence...

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 1378
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #287 on: February 20, 2017, 12:05 PM »
Received the following email this morning from Bosch:

**********************************************
Bosch REAXX™ Portable Table Saw
 
Dear Bosch User,
 
We wanted to reach out to you regarding your Bosch REAXX™ Portable Table Saw. 
We appreciate your loyalty to the Bosch brand and want to assure you that Robert Bosch Tool Corp. will continue to support and service your REAXX™ table saw, including supplying activation cartridges.
 
In late January, the U.S. International Trade Commission (ITC) instituted an exclusion order on the REAXX™ table saw.  We are now in a 60-day presidential review period, in which the President of the United States has an opportunity to review the facts of the case and then veto this exclusion order.  This order relates to the future importation of REAXX™ table saws into the U.S.; activation cartridges, which are now produced in the U.S., are not affected.
 
The ITC’s decision was based on the Administrative Law Judge’s finding against Bosch on two patents; the judge also found for Bosch on two patents.  Bosch maintains that development of its professional table saw product respects other companies’ patents and represents a new and unique technology in the construction market.  Therefore, we will be appealing this ruling.
 
At Bosch, safety is a priority, and we will work to defend consumers’ rights to buy our products.
 
Thank you for using and relying on Bosch products.
 
 
Yours sincerely,
 
 
Heiko Fischer
President, Robert Bosch Tool Corp.
 
********************************************

Offline bkharman

  • Posts: 1998
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #288 on: February 20, 2017, 01:59 PM »
Received the following email this morning from Bosch:

**********************************************
Bosch REAXX Portable Table Saw
 
Dear Bosch User,
 
We wanted to reach out to you regarding your Bosch REAXX Portable Table Saw. 
We appreciate your loyalty to the Bosch brand and want to assure you that Robert Bosch Tool Corp. will continue to support and service your REAXX table saw, including supplying activation cartridges.
 
In late January, the U.S. International Trade Commission (ITC) instituted an exclusion order on the REAXX table saw.  We are now in a 60-day presidential review period, in which the President of the United States has an opportunity to review the facts of the case and then veto this exclusion order.  This order relates to the future importation of REAXX table saws into the U.S.; activation cartridges, which are now produced in the U.S., are not affected.
 
The ITC’s decision was based on the Administrative Law Judge’s finding against Bosch on two patents; the judge also found for Bosch on two patents.  Bosch maintains that development of its professional table saw product respects other companies’ patents and represents a new and unique technology in the construction market.  Therefore, we will be appealing this ruling.
 
At Bosch, safety is a priority, and we will work to defend consumers’ rights to buy our products.
 
Thank you for using and relying on Bosch products.
 
 
Yours sincerely,
 
 
Heiko Fischer
President, Robert Bosch Tool Corp.
 
********************************************

Given the current presidency and his desire to keep everything "American", this letter should have just been a "lol... sorry (shrug)" statement.

Oh well, I was hopeful that we would still see the saw in the US. Not so much anymore.

Thanks for sharing.

Cheers. Bryan.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 1384
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #289 on: February 20, 2017, 02:44 PM »
Darn, I was really looking for the Bosch saw to take hold and give SS some competition.
I like the features in the Bosch saw and I don't like the way SS has gone about forcing
their products on everyone. Defending your IP rights is one thing, but at one time SS
tried to force the CPSC to make it mandatory to use SS technology on all table saws,
no matter who produced them. This was after they failed to get all the TS manufacturers
to license their technology and pay them a nice royalty.

I guess they are not too confident in their design so they try to squash any competition
before it can get a tow hold in the market and most likely steal their future sales out
form under them.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline justaguy

  • Posts: 206
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #290 on: February 20, 2017, 03:48 PM »
Just for the record... The Wright brothers did file for and were granted patent # 821,393. The following is an excerpt froma 2014 NY Times article titled "Greed and the Wright Brothers"

But when the Wrights applied for a patent, they didn’t seek one that just covered wing warping; their patent covered any means to achieve lateral stability. There is no question what the Wrights sought: nothing less than a monopoly on the airplane business — every airplane ever manufactured, they believed, owed them a royalty. As Wilbur Wright, who was both the more domineering and the more inventive of the two brothers, put it in a letter: “It is our view that morally the world owes its almost universal system of lateral control entirely to us. It is also our opinion that legally it owes it to us.”




"Sorry, other than its a safety feature on a TS, they really share no technical similarities.
Just another example of his douchiness. "

The whole point of the patent case was about the safety feature. An inventor has a right to defend his patent even if you do not like him.

And that's the problem. Imagine brothers Wright patenting motor powered flight regardless of the technical solution involved.

Offline johnbro

  • Posts: 128
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #291 on: February 20, 2017, 03:54 PM »
Reading this with interest. Seems like every forum where SS comes up people jump on his original story to show he's some kind of predatory monster.

So let me weigh in with both some data and some speculation...

** I sold a PM66 to buy a SawStop PCS ** If that drives you crazy, hit PgDn now.

What Gass did is what every inventor worth her salt would have done. First you secure protection for your invention (patents). He had a jump start because as a patent atty he could avoid paying outside counsel the $$$ that patents take today. They are (more often than not) rejected by USPTO and it's though a process of "prosecution" back and forth with the examiners that you finally get your award.

Next he goes to the TS manufacturers and offers his tech. Supposedly he offered it for a royalty of 8% of the wholesale price. Since big ticket items typically have less markup from wholesale to retail, let's say the wholesale price of a TS with a $2k retail price is $1500 (depending on retailer volume discounts, rebates, special offers, etc from the mfg). So the mfg would have to modify the saw to incorporate the braking mechanism, the electronics, and the switch with bypass--that's a one time fee. Let's say the modifications would add $100 to the COGS (cost of goods sold) of the saw, and the royalty would be $120, for a total of $220. The manufacturer sees this as a competitive advantage and so decides to either pass the additional COGS on to the retailer, or perhaps decides to eat some of it, expecting to make it up in increased volume through competitive advantage. Assuming the mfg passes it on to the retailer, the retail price of the SuperCutz 5000 table saw now increases from $2000 to $2200 with flesh-sensing technology. It sits on the showroom floor (of Woodcraft) next to the Powermatic 2K for $220 less but without the flesh-sensing tech.

This is the scenario the manufacturers declined to go for, and the reason is simple: they mistakenly believed that increasing the safety factor on a table saw would not lead to competitive advantage. Imagine a meeting at Delta, or Jet:

"Should we license this SawStop thing?"
"Safety doesn't sell--we've see that over and over. We'll just have a more expensive saw than everyone else and lose share."
"So if we tell everyone in the PTI (powertool institute--their trade assn) not to license it, Gass will go away, right?"
"Yeah, or else he'll bring his saw to market and fail."
"Ok, for now we decline. If another mfg wants to get in the pool first, we can see how they do."

This is EXACTLY how these kinds of decisions are made. If even one mfg had licensed the tech all the rest would have fallen into line (slow to adopt; fast to follow). ALso they were worried about potential liability--either for the new tech or for existing tech.

So here's Steve Gass with hand-saving tech no one will buy. He goes to the CPSC (after all it's a SAFETY COMMISSION) and shows them the tech and urges them to consider adopting it as a standard.

What do you think he would do? Just go home and quit?

Nonsense.

And anyone here who says they wouldn't have gone to CPSC in the same situation is probably in denial--having spent a small fortune developing a technology that can prevent great and common harm, but has no buyers? You would just give up? of course not, you would manufacture the saw yourselves, right?

Do you have any idea of what it takes to do something like that? The time, the money, the engineering, logistics, finance, dealer acquisition, marketing, support, and on and on?

To his credit he didn't just build a crappy table saw + his tech--he built arguably the best cabinet saw available + his tech.

Do they answer the phone? Yes. Try calling them or email them or chat on their website.

Do they support their product? Better than most companies. For example, free brake replacement if you stick your finger in the blade. When's the last time you got something free from Festool? Or Delta? Jet? Anybody?

Delta, Jet, General, Bosch, all of them were wrong: safety sells. With over 90,000 saws sold so far, SS is now the #1 selling cabinet saw in North America. And it's not just for the brake: for me the dust collection and the ease of changing from blade guard to riving knife were enough to make it a better option than any competing saw. The safety feature is icing.

I don't care who buys what. I really don't. But to deride this man who made a positive impact on society (hundreds or thousands of fingers saved) for what are normal business practices that almost certainly all of his detractors would have duplicated is just wrong.
TS 55, 3 guide rails, MFT 1080, RO 150, ETS 150/3, MFK 700, OF 1400, Kapex 120, Domino 500, CT 26

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 465
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #292 on: February 20, 2017, 04:57 PM »
I continue to be amazed at how some people simply refuse to recognize the right of Sawstop to defend their patents. Should Festool announce that anybody is now free to copy the patents they hold on the Domino?

In regard to licensing to other companies, I have read that liability was a major concern for the other manufacturers. They were concerned that somebody would figure out how to cut off some fingers and then get an extra large award because the safety mechanism failed.

Offline Rip Van Winkle

  • Posts: 301
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #293 on: February 20, 2017, 06:12 PM »
I continue to be amazed at how some people simply refuse to recognize the right of Sawstop to defend their patents. Should Festool announce that anybody is now free to copy the patents they hold on the Domino?

In regard to licensing to other companies, I have read that liability was a major concern for the other manufacturers. They were concerned that somebody would figure out how to cut off some fingers and then get an extra large award because the safety mechanism failed.

Bosch made a legal argument that some of the patents issued for the Sawstop design should not have been issued in the first place, and should therefore be considered invalid. After looking thru some of the Sawstop patents, and noticing things they did not claim in their patents, as well as other patents Sawstop did not cite in their patent filing, which Bosch did cite in patents related to their Reaxx saw, I'm inclined to lean towards Bosch and their claims.

There were patents for capacitance safety sensing well before Gass filed his Sawstop patents.

Droping a sawblade below a table surface is not revolutionary. There's a type of saw called a Gjerdesag made in Norway were the blade can be pulled up from below, and allowed to drop back below the saw table by letting go of a handle, when a cut is finished, or just for safety.  There is also another type of saw called an Upcut saw were the blade rises above the saw table to make cuts, and then drops back below the tanle surface, when the cut is finished, or if the safety switches held by the operator stop being pressed. The Upcut type of saw is more of a miter saw but it would hardly be novel to use one as a tablesaw , and I eouldn't be surprised if similar tablesaws have been made and used at some point. Both saw types are decades old.

Simply combining the capacitance cut off with a saw that automatically drops the sawblade below the table surface does not strike me as novel and unique as required by parent law. Ramming the saw blade into a block of aluminum to stop it quickly does strike me as novel, as does using the Bosch explosive cartridge, but neither of these novel ideas are violated by the Bosch Reaxx saw.

Offline johnbro

  • Posts: 128
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #294 on: February 20, 2017, 06:45 PM »
I continue to be amazed at how some people simply refuse to recognize the right of Sawstop to defend their patents. Should Festool announce that anybody is now free to copy the patents they hold on the Domino?

In regard to licensing to other companies, I have read that liability was a major concern for the other manufacturers. They were concerned that somebody would figure out how to cut off some fingers and then get an extra large award because the safety mechanism failed.

Bosch made a legal argument that some of the patents issued for the Sawstop design should not have been issued in the first place, and should therefore be considered invalid. After looking thru some of the Sawstop patents, and noticing things they did not claim in their patents, as well as other patents Sawstop did not cite in their patent filing, which Bosch did cite in patents related to their Reaxx saw, I'm inclined to lean towards Bosch and their claims.

There were patents for capacitance safety sensing well before Gass filed his Sawstop patents.

Droping a sawblade below a table surface is not revolutionary. There's a type of saw called a Gjerdesag made in Norway were the blade can be pulled up from below, and allowed to drop back below the saw table by letting go of a handle, when a cut is finished, or just for safety.  There is also another type of saw called an Upcut saw were the blade rises above the saw table to make cuts, and then drops back below the tanle surface, when the cut is finished, or if the safety switches held by the operator stop being pressed. The Upcut type of saw is more of a miter saw but it would hardly be novel to use one as a tablesaw , and I eouldn't be surprised if similar tablesaws have been made and used at some point. Both saw types are decades old.

Simply combining the capacitance cut off with a saw that automatically drops the sawblade below the table surface does not strike me as novel and unique as required by parent law. Ramming the saw blade into a block of aluminum to stop it quickly does strike me as novel, as does using the Bosch explosive cartridge, but neither of these novel ideas are violated by the Bosch Reaxx saw.

When a patent is filed and prosecuted, the inventor has to try to convince the USPTO that it is indeed novel and no prior art or other patent is relevant. The PTO has to process way too many patents, so they make a determination one way or the other. According to some patent lawyers I used to have for a client, normally they will reject the patent application almost out of hand, forcing the inventor to argue why it should be granted.

Granting and issuing the patent doesn't mean the invention is unique or even that it doesn't infringe someone else's patent. That's why we have courts where--in a case like SS vs Bosch--both sides go into detail as to why or why not there is an infringement. The court makes the determination. The legal standard for granting or upholding a patent have little to do with the examples you just cited. For instance, the patent for Nutrasweet (aspartame) is for its use as an artificial sweetener, not for the chemical itself. If you discovered a 10mm wrench could be used for open-heart surgery in a way no one had ever thought of before, you could patent that process.

Adjudicating the SS patents in a woodworking forum is fairly pointless since the ITC has already ruled. Whether SS has patents in the EU that will also be defended against the Bosch saw remains to be seen, I guess. And of course Donald Trump could always overturn the ITC ruling and let the Bosch saws be sold in the US.
TS 55, 3 guide rails, MFT 1080, RO 150, ETS 150/3, MFK 700, OF 1400, Kapex 120, Domino 500, CT 26

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6612
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #295 on: February 20, 2017, 09:16 PM »
And of course Donald Trump could always overturn the ITC ruling and let the Bosch saws be sold in the US.

If they're made in the USA, we have a chance, if they're made in Taiwan like SS, then it's up for grabs. 
« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 09:19 PM by Cheese »

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 465
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #296 on: February 20, 2017, 09:46 PM »
I am almost certain that the Bosch Reaxx is not made in the USA. Does Bosch make anything in the USA?

Offline Rip Van Winkle

  • Posts: 301
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #297 on: February 21, 2017, 04:26 AM »
I am almost certain that the Bosch Reaxx is not made in the USA. Does Bosch make anything in the USA?

Bosch manufactures and/or assembles appliances in the USA nowadays.

Bosch used to manufacture a number of power tool models in the USA, at least for the US market, but most of that production has shifted to Mexico or elsewhere by now.

Bosch may also manufacture some automotive parts in the USA.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6612
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #298 on: February 21, 2017, 08:46 AM »
Does Bosch make anything in the USA?

I think Bosch like Festool, will be opening manufacturing facilities in the US. Certainly, that would go a long ways during the Presidential review period of this patent litigation. It could even turn the odds in Bosch's favor.

Just waiting to see that TS or Domino with made in USA on the label. [cool]
« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 08:48 AM by Cheese »

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 866
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #299 on: February 21, 2017, 09:24 AM »
Reading this with interest. Seems like every forum where SS comes up people jump on his original story to show he's some kind of predatory monster.

So let me weigh in with both some data and some speculation...

** I sold a PM66 to buy a SawStop PCS ** If that drives you crazy, hit PgDn now.

What Gass did is what every inventor worth her salt would have done. First you secure protection for your invention (patents). He had a jump start because as a patent atty he could avoid paying outside counsel the $$$ that patents take today. They are (more often than not) rejected by USPTO and it's though a process of "prosecution" back and forth with the examiners that you finally get your award.

Next he goes to the TS manufacturers and offers his tech. Supposedly he offered it for a royalty of 8% of the wholesale price. Since big ticket items typically have less markup from wholesale to retail, let's say the wholesale price of a TS with a $2k retail price is $1500 (depending on retailer volume discounts, rebates, special offers, etc from the mfg). So the mfg would have to modify the saw to incorporate the braking mechanism, the electronics, and the switch with bypass--that's a one time fee. Let's say the modifications would add $100 to the COGS (cost of goods sold) of the saw, and the royalty would be $120, for a total of $220. The manufacturer sees this as a competitive advantage and so decides to either pass the additional COGS on to the retailer, or perhaps decides to eat some of it, expecting to make it up in increased volume through competitive advantage. Assuming the mfg passes it on to the retailer, the retail price of the SuperCutz 5000 table saw now increases from $2000 to $2200 with flesh-sensing technology. It sits on the showroom floor (of Woodcraft) next to the Powermatic 2K for $220 less but without the flesh-sensing tech.

This is the scenario the manufacturers declined to go for, and the reason is simple: they mistakenly believed that increasing the safety factor on a table saw would not lead to competitive advantage. Imagine a meeting at Delta, or Jet:

"Should we license this SawStop thing?"
"Safety doesn't sell--we've see that over and over. We'll just have a more expensive saw than everyone else and lose share."
"So if we tell everyone in the PTI (powertool institute--their trade assn) not to license it, Gass will go away, right?"
"Yeah, or else he'll bring his saw to market and fail."
"Ok, for now we decline. If another mfg wants to get in the pool first, we can see how they do."

This is EXACTLY how these kinds of decisions are made. If even one mfg had licensed the tech all the rest would have fallen into line (slow to adopt; fast to follow). ALso they were worried about potential liability--either for the new tech or for existing tech.

So here's Steve Gass with hand-saving tech no one will buy. He goes to the CPSC (after all it's a SAFETY COMMISSION) and shows them the tech and urges them to consider adopting it as a standard.

What do you think he would do? Just go home and quit?

Nonsense.

And anyone here who says they wouldn't have gone to CPSC in the same situation is probably in denial--having spent a small fortune developing a technology that can prevent great and common harm, but has no buyers? You would just give up? of course not, you would manufacture the saw yourselves, right?

Do you have any idea of what it takes to do something like that? The time, the money, the engineering, logistics, finance, dealer acquisition, marketing, support, and on and on?

To his credit he didn't just build a crappy table saw + his tech--he built arguably the best cabinet saw available + his tech.

Do they answer the phone? Yes. Try calling them or email them or chat on their website.

Do they support their product? Better than most companies. For example, free brake replacement if you stick your finger in the blade. When's the last time you got something free from Festool? Or Delta? Jet? Anybody?

Delta, Jet, General, Bosch, all of them were wrong: safety sells. With over 90,000 saws sold so far, SS is now the #1 selling cabinet saw in North America. And it's not just for the brake: for me the dust collection and the ease of changing from blade guard to riving knife were enough to make it a better option than any competing saw. The safety feature is icing.

I don't care who buys what. I really don't. But to deride this man who made a positive impact on society (hundreds or thousands of fingers saved) for what are normal business practices that almost certainly all of his detractors would have duplicated is just wrong.

Agree 100% and one of those fingers saved is mine. I had a slip up 2 years ago after a 24 year run of no incidents. Streaks can't go on forever. Gass invented a safety device that prevents horrific life changing injuries. He has every right to stop someone from infringing on his patents. It should be noted that prior patents can be used to create a new patent if the combination represents something unique. Something that seems obvious today was not so obvious when he invented and patented it.

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #300 on: February 21, 2017, 10:08 AM »
- vs -
SawStop's couple dozen employees, offshore manuf. and single digit office/warehouse locations.

Especially in 2017...

The true test is, "Do they answer the phone?"

Does Sawstop answer the phone? By my experience yes, with responsive support.
+1

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1905
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #301 on: February 21, 2017, 11:59 AM »
I continue to be amazed at how some people simply refuse to recognize the right of Sawstop to defend their patents.
No one refuses do recognize those rights. People just regret the decision. I might accept the ruling, but I don't have to like it. I'm a consumer and my self interests are more product choices and better technology (which Bosch's clearly is). What's surprising in that? SS, on the other hand, is after their self interest - monopoly as wide as possible for as long as possible. Nothing surprising either. Hopefully the appeal goes well for Bosch.

Offline derekcohen

  • Posts: 344
    • In The Woodshop
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #302 on: February 21, 2017, 12:16 PM »
Quote
SS, on the other hand, is after their self interest - monopoly as wide as possible for as long as possible

My understanding is that SS is willing to sell the right to manufacture their mechanism. They just do not wish to give it away. Purchasing the right to manufacture would enable anyone to go into competition with them. How is that a monopoly?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Offline kevinculle

  • Posts: 301
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #303 on: February 21, 2017, 01:10 PM »
The whole concept of the patent system is that the inventor is granted protection for a limited time period in exchange for disclosure of the details of his invention so that other inventors may improve upon it.  If they indeed improve upon it a new patent can be granted, if they infringe on it the patent holder can obtain protection in the courts.  Sawstop is simply following the rules.

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #304 on: February 21, 2017, 10:10 PM »
I am almost certain that the Bosch Reaxx is not made in the USA. Does Bosch make anything in the USA?


Of course they manufacture in the USA.   ::)

They have btw 50 -100 different facilities here employing over 30,000 people.   The dozen or so groups generate close to $14 billion in revenue a year. 

I don't think they'll even notice not selling a couple of thousand table saws for a few years if the import ban holds.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 10:14 PM by antss »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6612
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #305 on: February 21, 2017, 10:31 PM »
Of course they manufacture in the USA.   ::)

They have btw 50 -100 different facilities here employing over 30,000 people.   The dozen or so groups generate close to $14 billion in revenue a year. 

Hmm...seems that Bosch may be substantially better positioned than SS when it comes to the America First policy. Manufacturing in Taiwan...vs manufacturing in the US, I'm sure the Donald will tweet on this one...it makes me dizzy. Stay tuned...

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 465
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #306 on: February 21, 2017, 11:18 PM »
I was actually referring to any Bosch woodworking tools made in the USA, but their number of employees in the USA is an interesting point to consider.

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 2280
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #307 on: February 22, 2017, 08:50 AM »
I am almost certain that the Bosch Reaxx is not made in the USA. Does Bosch make anything in the USA?


Of course they manufacture in the USA.   ::)

They have btw 50 -100 different facilities here employing over 30,000 people.   The dozen or so groups generate close to $14 billion in revenue a year. 

I don't think they'll even notice not selling a couple of thousand table saws for a few years if the import ban holds.
  True, it's only a few years till the patent expires , right?  After that, who knows what will show up.  [scratch chin]
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 866
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #308 on: February 22, 2017, 10:52 AM »
- vs -
SawStop's couple dozen employees, offshore manuf. and single digit office/warehouse locations.

Especially in 2017...

The true test is, "Do they answer the phone?"

Does Sawstop answer the phone? By my experience yes, with responsive support.

SawStop answers their phone and emails, has knowledgeable tech support and full access to the engineers. I have called them three times. The first was after a trigger. They asked for pictures of the cartridge and my finger and promptly sent out another cartridge at no cost. The second call was about the dado saw cartridge which appeared to limit the width of the dado blade set. As it turned out I did not need to use the secondary washer with the dado stack. The washer is only for saw blades. My third call was a series of questions related to the sliding table in terms of mounting options. As it turns out there are options beyond what is mentioned in the manual. At no time on any of the calls did I feel rushed by them to wrap up the call and I had a lot of questions.

Offline Steve Rowe

  • Posts: 828
  • Teach them safety when they are young.
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #309 on: February 22, 2017, 08:13 PM »
Received the following email this morning from Bosch:

**********************************************
 
The ITC’s decision was based on the Administrative Law Judge’s finding against Bosch on two patents; the judge also found for Bosch on two patents.  Bosch maintains that development of its professional table saw product respects other companies’ patents and represents a new and unique technology in the construction market.  Therefore, we will be appealing this ruling.

 ********************************************

Interesting that the judge ruled for Bosch on two patents.  Does this mean that Sawstop infringed on Bosch patents?  If so, I wonder if an exclusion order will be placed on imports of Sawstops into the US.

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #310 on: February 22, 2017, 09:00 PM »
Now you're reading OUTSIDE the lines.

I'm pretty sure what you read was that Bosch wasn't found in violation of two of the aspects of the complaint.

Offline Peter Halle

  • Global Moderator
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  • Posts: 12082
  • Magnum - My new little boy
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #311 on: February 22, 2017, 09:44 PM »
If Sawstops patents were filed before Bosch's it would seem impossible for Sawstop to infringe.  It seems that Bosch didn't infringe on two claims by Sawstop against them.

Peter

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6612
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #312 on: February 22, 2017, 09:56 PM »
This will be very, very interesting...that's the reason I suggested that if Bosch knows their stuff, which I assume they do, a plea to the Donald that a USA company producing product in Taiwan is not as viable or valuable to the American infrastructure as a German company producing/manufacturing product in the USA.

It will be interesting how SS responds...

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #313 on: February 22, 2017, 10:16 PM »
SS won't need to respond - unless the President's Rep. reverses the Commission's finding.

Which Vegas has pegged happening at slim to none. 

It's still a possibility though. And I'd imagine with the size of Bosch's war chest, they will bring considerable pressure to bear on the relevant parties.   

I could certainly see the Administration quashing the order, and letting the courts decide the merits of Bosch's claim that patents they were found in violation of shouldn't have been issued in the first place.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1905
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #314 on: February 22, 2017, 10:31 PM »
I'm surprised the administration has a say in such a minor business dispute. Not their job to micromanage.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6612
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #315 on: February 22, 2017, 11:23 PM »
Hey guys, we're in a new world order...what was once up is now down, and what was once down is now up and it will be discussed for the next how many years before it just becomes dull, boring and uninteresting. 

Sorry to say...this administration will have something to say in every minor business dispute...they are what they are...

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 549
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #316 on: February 23, 2017, 05:54 AM »
My issue with the sawstop contractor saw (the plastic portable one) is the junk fence, it's hard to get it perfectly parallel to the blade and the out going end has too much play. I find it's build quality below the industry standard dewalt table saw. This is a message to all tool companiies, if you are going to introduce a portable table saw it better function as well as the dewalt set up with or without the safety. Just my opinion and everyone I work with.   The makita has a useless fence, too big and heavy, Bosch is too big, inferior fence and dust collection, new skill worm drive has too much blade wobble and inferior fence. All others are not even worth mentioning. I personally hate the wheelie cart saws, too big, too heavy, too much space in truck. When one needs the big setup it's better to make ones own outfeed or go Rousseau.

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 866