Author Topic: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop  (Read 110923 times)

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Offline Cheese

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #90 on: March 19, 2015, 05:29 PM »
Some info presented today were sale price and a SOMETIME in 2015 release date.  We've got it up on the site with some comprehensive video, photos and details.

Bosch REAXX Table Saw

So let me try to understand this:
Bosch 4100 saw/stand = $600
Bosch 4100 saw/stand + REAXX option = $1500
Therefore REAXX option = $900
Hmmmmmm maybe there are some other options out there for me.

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Offline elfick

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #91 on: March 19, 2015, 05:33 PM »
Some info presented today were sale price and a SOMETIME in 2015 release date.  We've got it up on the site with some comprehensive video, photos and details.

Bosch REAXX Table Saw

So let me try to understand this:
Bosch 4100 saw/stand = $600
Bosch 4100 saw/stand + REAXX option = $1500
Therefore REAXX option = $900
Hmmmmmm maybe there are some other options out there for me.
You're missing the part of the equation where list_price != street_price
The list price of the Bosch 4100-09 10-Inch Worksite Table Saw with Gravity-Rise Stand is $1170 according to Amazon.

Offline Cheese

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #92 on: March 19, 2015, 05:36 PM »
The irony of this thread is some folks get all bound up about sawstop trying to legislatively mandate their safety devices in table saws, and Bosch is now coming out with a new approach of doing the same thing based on their airbag technology which is legislatively mandated here in the US for about 20 years. Should I be angry at Bosch also? This can get confusing fast LOL. FTR I oppose legislating table saw blade brakes as well as airbags in vehicles, let the market decide these things, not bureaucrats.

Paul, you have a great point. This whole Saw Stop/Bosch thread has turned pretty bizarre. Especially with the Bosch pricing now emulating the pricing of Saw Stop's entry for a job-site saw.

Offline Cheese

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #93 on: March 19, 2015, 05:40 PM »
Some info presented today were sale price and a SOMETIME in 2015 release date.  We've got it up on the site with some comprehensive video, photos and details.

Bosch REAXX Table Saw

So let me try to understand this:
Bosch 4100 saw/stand = $600
Bosch 4100 saw/stand + REAXX option = $1500
Therefore REAXX option = $900
Hmmmmmm maybe there are some other options out there for me.
You're missing the part of the equation where list_price != street_price
The list price of the Bosch 4100-09 10-Inch Worksite Table Saw with Gravity-Rise Stand is $1170 according to Amazon.


If you go to the Tool Nut website, they have priced the saw at $1499 retail. Unless Bosch reconsiders their pricing schedule, Tool Nut will be asking $1499 foa a REAXX saw.

Offline elfick

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #94 on: March 19, 2015, 05:42 PM »
Some info presented today were sale price and a SOMETIME in 2015 release date.  We've got it up on the site with some comprehensive video, photos and details.

Bosch REAXX Table Saw

So let me try to understand this:
Bosch 4100 saw/stand = $600
Bosch 4100 saw/stand + REAXX option = $1500
Therefore REAXX option = $900
Hmmmmmm maybe there are some other options out there for me.
You're missing the part of the equation where list_price != street_price
The list price of the Bosch 4100-09 10-Inch Worksite Table Saw with Gravity-Rise Stand is $1170 according to Amazon.


If you go to the Tool Nut website, they have priced the saw at $1499 retail. Unless Bosch reconsiders their pricing schedule, Tool Nut will be asking $1499 foa a REAXX saw.
That's absolutely correct. My point was your math should thusly:

Bosch 4100 saw/stand = $1170
Bosch 4100 saw/stand + REAXX option = $1500
Therefore REAXX option = $330

Comparing list prices for both.  [smile]

edit to note that I see your point that the 4100 is available right now for $600, but if you wanted to stick to that, the cost of the reaxx is actually infinite since it isn't available right now... since we won't know the street price until it's released, your only other option is to compare the price we do know, the list price.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2015, 05:44 PM by elfick »

Offline Cheese

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #95 on: March 19, 2015, 05:47 PM »
Some info presented today were sale price and a SOMETIME in 2015 release date.  We've got it up on the site with some comprehensive video, photos and details.

Bosch REAXX Table Saw

So let me try to understand this:
Bosch 4100 saw/stand = $600
Bosch 4100 saw/stand + REAXX option = $1500
Therefore REAXX option = $900
Hmmmmmm maybe there are some other options out there for me.
You're missing the part of the equation where list_price != street_price
The list price of the Bosch 4100-09 10-Inch Worksite Table Saw with Gravity-Rise Stand is $1170 according to Amazon.


If you go to the Tool Nut website, they have priced the saw at $1499 retail. Unless Bosch reconsiders their pricing schedule, Tool Nut will be asking $1499 foa a REAXX saw.
That's absolutely correct. My point was your math should thusly:

Bosch 4100 saw/stand = $1170
Bosch 4100 saw/stand + REAXX option = $1500
Therefore REAXX option = $330

Comparing list prices for both.  [smile]

If you're comparing list prices of each you are absolutely correct. And the $330 option isn't that hard to swallow.
What I'm saying is that if I want to purchase a 4100 right now, I'll pay $600. If I want to purchase a REAXX right now, I'll pay $1500.

Offline elfick

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #96 on: March 19, 2015, 05:50 PM »
heh heh, I snuck my edit in before your reply  [big grin]

edit to note that I see your point that the 4100 is available right now for $600, but if you wanted to stick to that, the cost of the reaxx is actually infinite since it isn't available right now... since we won't know the street price until it's released, your only other option is to compare the price we do know, the list price.

Offline Cheese

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #97 on: March 19, 2015, 05:54 PM »
heh heh, I snuck my edit in before your reply  [big grin]


Good job...I owe you one for that. [smile]

Offline GregBradley

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #98 on: March 19, 2015, 06:30 PM »
Wouldn't a 15 amp 4 HP saw require 220v?
15a at 220v would only get you closer to 4hp.

120v 15a only gets you 4 nonsense HP. Some high RPM vacuums are claiming 6.5hp out of a 120v circuit.

To put it a bit more clearly, that motor will do 4hp worth of work for a part of one second with the overload circuit disabled just before it turns itself into useless junk.

Universal Motors are rated differently than Induction Motors.

That 4hp Universal Motor Saw will do about the same work as a 1.75hp Induction Motor saw for a VERY short time. It will do about the same amount of work as a 1.25hp Induction Motor saw for the typical use of a jobsite saw
« Last Edit: March 19, 2015, 06:35 PM by GregBradley »

Offline wow

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #99 on: March 19, 2015, 07:17 PM »
The rule of thumb I was taught back when I was a pup was that you could run a REAL 1.5HP motor on a typical 120 Volt circuit, but that was it. You couldn't run a 2HP one - period.

In addition to the 'downhill, with the wind, and once' nonsense ratings that are batted about these days, there have been some companies that have come out with REAL 1.75 HP motors to eek the last little bit of power out of a typical !20 Volt circuit. I think I *might* even remember a 1-7/8 HP rating one for the same reason.
Trying to be one of the most helpful members on the FOG.

Offline sae

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #100 on: March 19, 2015, 08:27 PM »
Some info presented today were sale price and a SOMETIME in 2015 release date.  We've got it up on the site with some comprehensive video, photos and details.

Bosch REAXX Table Saw

Whoops...Bosch suggested retail price is $1499. I guess Saw Stop just got bailed out of their potential conundrum.

Is that the real price?

MSRP on the GCM12SD was also $1499...and I never saw the saw sold for over $799 ($649 now).

Offline wow

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #101 on: March 19, 2015, 08:33 PM »
Some info presented today were sale price and a SOMETIME in 2015 release date.  We've got it up on the site with some comprehensive video, photos and details.

Bosch REAXX Table Saw

Whoops...Bosch suggested retail price is $1499. I guess Saw Stop just got bailed out of their potential conundrum.

Is that the real price?

MSRP on the GCM12SD was also $1499...and I never saw the saw sold for over $799 ($649 now).

As long as that REAXX saw is less than $1000 street price, it will do very well. If they can offer it for $749-$799, they're gonna kick butt and take names.

This could get VERY interesting.
Trying to be one of the most helpful members on the FOG.

Offline Cheese

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #102 on: March 19, 2015, 10:28 PM »
Wow, 
I concurr. If this saw can be purchased for $700-$900 it will be an ass kicker. At $1400, it will be an also ran because of the quality of the SawStop product for the same price.

Offline Frank Pellow

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #103 on: March 20, 2015, 04:01 AM »
Wow, 
I concurr. If this saw can be purchased for $700-$900 it will be an  kicker. At $1400, it will be an also ran because of the quality of the SawStop product for the same price.

I expect that you will be able to get the Bosch for that street price.  But it will really surprise me if 'real' SawStop prices drop to that level.
Cheers,   
               Frank (Festool connoisseur)

Offline Cheese

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #104 on: March 20, 2015, 09:24 AM »
The rule of thumb I was taught back when I was a pup was that you could run a REAL 1.5HP motor on a typical 120 Volt circuit, but that was it. You couldn't run a 2HP one - period.

In addition to the 'downhill, with the wind, and once' nonsense ratings that are batted about these days, there have been some companies that have come out with REAL 1.75 HP motors to eek the last little bit of power out of a typical !20 Volt circuit. I think I *might* even remember a 1-7/8 HP rating one for the same reason.

Wow,
Thought you may be interested in this.  [smile]
I looked in my Baldor catalog and just to confirm your information, Baldor lists all of their single phase, 115 volt, 1 1/2 HP motors as requiring 12.6-16.4 amps. While all of their 2 HP motors require 16.6-23.0 amps. So to quote you, "You can't run a 2 HP one (on 15 amps) - period.", much less a 4 HP variant.

All of these motor rating shenanigans reminds me of the audio amplifier ratings in the 70's & 80's.  [huh]


Offline Tom Bellemare

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #105 on: March 20, 2015, 09:58 AM »
Can someone please help me with where my math is going wrong?

1 HP = 746 Watts
2 HP = 1492 Watts

The lower end of distributed electricity in the U.S. is ~110 VAC

1492 Watts / 110 VAC = ~13.56 Amps


Tom

Offline elfick

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #106 on: March 20, 2015, 10:46 AM »
Can someone please help me with where my math is going wrong?

1 HP = 746 Watts
2 HP = 1492 Watts

The lower end of distributed electricity in the U.S. is ~110 VAC

1492 Watts / 110 VAC = ~13.56 Amps


Tom
Why do you think there is something wrong with your math? It looks right to me (IANAElectrician/Engineer).

For the REAXX they only published (that I could see) the HP (4) and amperage (15), so they are the numbers I used.

4 HP = 2984 W
W=VA so W/A=V so 2948/15= 198.3V

I suspect the numbers they published aren't for NA, at least not on 120V.

Offline jimbo51

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #107 on: March 20, 2015, 10:53 AM »
You are not accounting for motor efficiency. I saw one reference to 80% efficiency for standard motors less 4 hp.

Now Festool can introduce a table saw with Bosch technology! I bet that one would not sell for <$1000!!!


Offline elfick

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #108 on: March 20, 2015, 11:01 AM »
You are not accounting for motor efficiency. I saw one reference to 80% efficiency for standard motors less 4 hp.

Now Festool can introduce a table saw with Bosch technology! I bet that one would not sell for <$1000!!!
I'm not sure where efficiency fits in mathematically, but if it is where I think it is, then it does work out to a 240V saw.

198.93V * .2 = 39.79; 198.93 + 39.79 = 238.72V

Offline GregBradley

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #109 on: March 20, 2015, 11:13 AM »
Can someone please help me with where my math is going wrong?

1 HP = 746 Watts
2 HP = 1492 Watts

The lower end of distributed electricity in the U.S. is ~110 VAC

1492 Watts / 110 VAC = ~13.56 Amps


Tom
Your math is correct.

A 1 HP motor can also be called a 746 Watt motor, meaning that it makes 746 Watts of Mechanical Power.

That doesn't mean that a 1 HP motor requires 746 Watts of Electrical Power.

It needs more than 746 Watts of Electrical Power to make 746 Watts of Mechanical Power.

Typically need 900 Watts of Electrical Power to make 746 Watts of Mechanical Power also known as 1 HP.

You can have a 2 HP motor running on 120v but you need a 20 A circuit to do it.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2015, 11:17 AM by GregBradley »

Offline Frank Pellow

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #110 on: March 20, 2015, 11:24 AM »
I just received an ad for pre-order of the Bosch GTS 1041A-09 REAXX saw from ToolNut and their price is the same as the list price set by Bosch, that is $1,499 (us).   [sad]  I really did expect to see a lower street price so that's bad news.

The ship date is November, 2015.
Cheers,   
               Frank (Festool connoisseur)

Offline Cheese

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #111 on: March 20, 2015, 11:26 AM »

Your math is correct.

A 1 HP motor can also be called a 746 Watt motor, meaning that it makes 746 Watts of Mechanical Power.

That doesn't mean that a 1 HP motor requires 746 Watts of Electrical Power.

It needs more than 746 Watts of Electrical Power to make 746 Watts of Mechanical Power.

Typically need 900 Watts of Electrical Power to make 746 Watts of Mechanical Power also known as 1 HP.

You can have a 2 HP motor running on 120v but you need a 20 A circuit to do it.

Thankyou...the light bulb just went on. Output vs input.

Offline Grasshopper

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #112 on: March 20, 2015, 11:34 AM »
I wouldn't expect them to lower the price out the gate for a brand new release product such as this.

I'd expect "sale" prices and lower street prices after the newness wears off.


I just received an ad for pre-order of the Bosch GTS 1041A-09 REAXX saw from ToolNut and their price is the same as the list price set by Bosch, that is $1,499 (us).   [sad]  I really did expect to see a lower street price so that's bad news.

The ship date is November, 2015.
Aspiring DIY'er (hence the name "grasshopper" as I am looking to learn from all the masters on the FOG)- TS 55, OF 1400, MFT/3, VS600 Dovetail Jig, MFS700+ MFS2000 extension profiles, Kapex, Kapex UG set, T12 Li set(x2), CT22, Domino, Carvex, RO90, RO150, MFK700, CMS-VL, Qwas super pack & Cool Wife.

Offline Sean Ackerman

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #113 on: March 20, 2015, 11:46 AM »
I wouldn't expect them to lower the price out the gate for a brand new release product such as this.

I'd expect "sale" prices and lower street prices after the newness wears off.


I just received an ad for pre-order of the Bosch GTS 1041A-09 REAXX saw from ToolNut and their price is the same as the list price set by Bosch, that is $1,499 (us).   [sad]  I really did expect to see a lower street price so that's bad news.

The ship date is November, 2015.

At the end of the day.... it's expensive tech.  It may be a few years, and take a few more competitors, to bring these prices down.

Note estimated delivery schedule of November 2015
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Offline grbmds

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #114 on: March 20, 2015, 12:41 PM »
I've always found HP ratings on electric motors misleading. The manufacturers seem to rate them to suit their own purposes rather than trying to provide accurate information. I'm not the expert but the amps and the type of motor would determine how much power it provides, wouldn't it? In the case of Bosch, is there any reason to believe the motor is any different than the motor in the current 4100? Seems like the same saw. Whatever that motor is, this new saw is likely to be the same. It's is rated with the same number of amps. I can't believe you would get 4HP from a 15 amp motor. It doesn't seem like that is possible.
Randy

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #115 on: March 20, 2015, 12:44 PM »
I'm not sure where efficiency fits in mathematically, but if it is where I think it is, then it does work out to a 240V saw.

198.93V * .2 = 39.79; 198.93 + 39.79 = 238.72V

The complete equation is:

Hp = V x I x pf x eff / 746

V - Volts
I - Amps
pf - PowerFactor
eff - efficiency

The powerfactor is a variable function that changes depending on motor load. When the motor is idling with no load, the powerfactor is only about 0.15. As the motor approaches maximum load, the powerfactor approaches 0.90 (1.0 theoretic). When the motor nameplate specifies a powerfactor, it is actually kind of an arbitrary number depending on how conservative the engineers/company wanted to be for how far they push their windings. This is why some motors are listed at 0.80 (most common) and some push it to 0.90.

The efficiency is actually a different and less common number that most people mistake for the powerfactor. This is a fixed number for that specific motor, and relates to windage losses (air friction), air gap between the stator and rotor, and electrical hysteresis losses in the iron core of the windings. This number is also around 0.80 to 0.90, but will be the higher end for better quality motors.

In order for a tool to comply with U.S. standards, it's current must be limited to 16 amps on a 20 amp circuit. So a power tool can have a maximum power delivery of about:

120 x 16 x 0.85 x 0.85 / 746 = 1.85 Hp

Offline Frank Pellow

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #116 on: March 20, 2015, 12:51 PM »
Thanks for the detailed explanation Rick.

What I would like to know is how Bosch can possibly try to claim 4hp.  Is there some brief period at start up where the power could theoretically get to that level.  [scratch chin]

Shame on you Bosch for this deception!   [mad]
Cheers,   
               Frank (Festool connoisseur)

Offline Cheese

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #117 on: March 20, 2015, 12:54 PM »
Thanks for the formula Rick [big grin]
It's a bit more involved than I thought.

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #118 on: March 20, 2015, 12:55 PM »
I believe they do it mathematically by bringing the motor to an abrupt stop and calculating horsepower based on the resulting torque and rpm from full speed.

Offline thedude306

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #119 on: March 20, 2015, 01:01 PM »
I think they make the same crazy claims on their (Bosch) routers.

I'm just glad this opens up some competition and moves power tool tech forward (I hope)

Brad T.